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The COW has messed itself

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John Kaley
The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 3:12:49 pm

The Creative Cow has become quite a mess.

The "Debate" forums need to be unified under a single heading: "A Software Debate." The "A" has to be there to keep the listing in the "Adobe" "Apple" "Avid" part of the COW list, so it feels more "at home."

There is no longer a reason to break it out by software any more. Most people who visit FCPX debate also visit the Creative Cloud debate. The conversation topics could also be broadened to include other software debates like Photoshop and LightWorks. What's your forum title idea?


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Tim Kolb
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 3:45:08 pm

Since these debates involve different people who may be concerned about one situation and not at all concerned about another (Windows users would get sick of having to sort through FCPX chatter to find the Creative Cloud posts), I don't see combining them all as very user-centric.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Tim Wilson
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 4:17:31 pm

I wrote about this in the FCPX Debate forum last week, which supports the points I'm about to make.

Here's why I'm inclined to keep the Debate forums separate:


1) They're different debates.

The Adobe debate is basically, "Q: Why are you changing licensing? A: We think it's best for you and us. Q: Nuh-uh. A: Yuh-huh." Not meaning to make judgments or be overly reductive, but there's a short half-life for this kind of thing.

FCPX, from the beginning, was for all the marbles. Workflows, careers, self-identity, and blowing up the entire industry to start over. Unless that wasn't the case for "me" in particular. But that's where the debate began, and very quickly expanded to take in, well, everything.

The FCPX Debate forum is about everything. This one's about one thing.


2) They're different communities.

How many of you post regularly in the FCP and Motion forums? If not, there's my point. If so, then you know what I'm about to say, which is that many of the people in those forums have online and even in-person relationships that go back years, and they may never have set foot in the other set of forums even once.

Turns out that some FCP people hadn't been using Premiere at any point in the proceedings, and still don't much care one way or the other.

Same with AE. Plenty of FCP folks don't use AE enough to frequent those forums, and feel like they're finding what they need about Premiere Pro in the FCPX Debate forum.

They're not just forums. They're communities of their own.

And, to make my earlier point again, I covered this in the FCPX forum last week. A lot of people responded to it there, so I know they saw it.


3) I try to manage as little as possible. Both because I'm a lazy bastard and because it works.

As a result, I've kept the Debate forums as close as possible in both name and location to their originating forums as possible.

Because otherwise, an altogether different forum with a different name would be all but invisible to anybody who didn't think, hmm, I wonder if there's a place to consider the wisdom of these companies' decisions and their affect on me in some other, altogether differently named forum.

That stuff would otherwise clutter their respective originating forums, and it's obvious by now that this is not happening even a little. I haven't had to move one thread since the forum was created.

So, in trying to respect the organic evolution of each forum and the communities of specific people they represent, it's making sense to me to keep them as two different discussions.

As always, I'm open to suggestions. Feel free to email me directly, too. But that's what I'm thinkin'.

Yr pal,
Timmy

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW



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Chris Borjis
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 4:24:03 pm

agree with Tim and Tim.

A single topic of debate with all apps combined would really get cowpie messy.



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Tim Kolb
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 5:10:07 pm

[Chris Borjis] "...would really get cowpie messy."

Eloquent, topical...somewhat gross.

Beautiful.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Dave LaRonde
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 5:49:56 pm

It just goes to show that you can't please everyone, no matter how hard you try.

I'm sure there are those individuals who who can't stand Hershey's chocolate, think a DeLorean is a totally-unacceptable time machine, and view the Jaguar XKE as the ugliest creation ever to evolve from a designer's hand.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Anders Utterstrom
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 5:25:14 pm

No it hasn't! Creative Cow is a great resource for a lot of people around the world. I don't know how many times I have found answers from creative and intelligent people at many of the forums.

Ciao,

Anders Utterstrom
Chicago, Illinois


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Tim Wilson
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 6:06:33 pm

I love you guys for all your support, and I especially appreciate any poo jokes. LOL

But John's question was a reasonable one, and indeed one that had come up in the FCPX Debate forum last week. And we're always open to ideas to make things better.

Thanks again for the support and the poo jokes.

Tim W


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 7:28:30 pm

Wow! Hershey's Chocolate and cow poo in the same thread! Can it get any better than this!

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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John Kaley
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 7:32:36 pm

The almighty COW has spoken. However, if look you at the FCPX Debate forum right now, the first page is almost exclusively Creative Cloud post. Messy indeed.


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Tim Wilson
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 13, 2013 at 8:49:20 pm

[John Kaley] "if look you at the FCPX Debate forum right now, the first page is almost exclusively Creative Cloud post."

Right, and those posts largely stopped after we opened this forum. Only two Adobe-related threads since then.

More important, they're two very different communities. For example, the most frequent poster in the history of the COW, Jeremy Garchow, with nearly 25,000 posts, around 200 of those in the past 30 days -- he's been in the Premiere forum ONCE in the past year. Creative COW has been around for 12 years -- he's never posted in the After Effects forum a single time.

Another example is Walter Soyka. The very most active poster in the AE forum, doesn't use Premiere, has never posted here, DOES use FCP, and so is having that conversation in the FCPX Debate forum, where he's also one of the most frequent posters.

In fact, if you look through those threads, and compare to the threads in this forum, there's very little overlap among the most frequent PEOPLE posting. The exception is the Three Horsemen Of The Apocalypse, those troublemakers at Bourke, Harlan & Huff, Esquires, who are active in both places. Otherwise, for the most part, two different communities.

And again, two different KINDS of conversations, even on the same topic. There, the conversation is viewed through the lens of their experience with Apple and Avid. Here, the conversation is directly with Adobe...

...since of course the folks from Adobe are frequent posters here, even when it's not all that fun. Feel the way you want to feel about Adobe's licensing plans, but do think good thoughts about the people who work there.

Anyway, that's what I mean when I say that the forums are very different, even when the topics are the same.

This is also true, for example, when AE people ask about Maya and when Maya people ask about AE. The two questions start in different places and will end in different places. The advice given in one forum may have no use for somebody in the other.

This will be even more true when one conversation is from afar, about the entire landscape of the NLE world, and one that is immediate, with paying customers of Premiere (and it is more Premiere than After Effects), and people in one conversation rarely, if ever, use the tools in the other. Other than the Three Horsemen. LOL

In the meantime, a little mess isn't the worst thing we've ever been accused of. :-)

Scatologically -- indeed the only kind of logic I use -- yours,
Tim


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Walter Soyka
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 14, 2013 at 8:22:16 am

[Tim Wilson] "Another example is Walter Soyka. The very most active poster in the AE forum, doesn't use Premiere, has never posted here, DOES use FCP, and so is having that conversation in the FCPX Debate forum, where he's also one of the most frequent posters. "

I can see I haven't talked with Tim in a little while!

I'm one of the FCP refugees who found a very happy home with Premiere (mainly on PCs, occasionally on Macs) -- with a little Smoke 2013 on the side.

I started working with Premiere at CS5.5 (for the first time since back in the 1990s when Premiere did A/B checkboarding within a track for transitions), and then I got serious with Pr CS6 and now with Pr CC. The last FCP project I worked on was almost six months ago (where does the time go?) and I actually helped move that production over to FCPX.

And Tim gives me too much credit. I posted on CC a bit in "FCPX or Not" because A) that seemed like the right place to post about the non-techniques issues, and more importantly B)I just plain missed this one. I participate a bit on the Premiere forum here, and I see some of threads from there have been moved here, just as they did when the FCP forum begat FCPX or Not.

The separation in the forums according to their communities makes sense to me, and I'm just as happy to raise some eyebrows over here by suggesting that CC is just crazy enough to work as I am over there.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 14, 2013 at 12:44:54 pm

[Tim Wilson] " he's been in the Premiere forum ONCE in the past year. Creative COW has been around for 12 years -- he's never posted in the After Effects forum a single time. "

Apparently, you forgot about my alter ego before the cow sanctioned proper names. ;)

What I find to be the most profound difference in the debates is that with CC there's improved software that people directly asked for, but don't like what it costs. FCPX is software that people "asked for", but don't like the form factor.

So we have software that people want, but won't pay for perpetually or as needed, and other software that people don't want, yet don't mind paying for.

Let the debate commence!


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Tim Wilson
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 14, 2013 at 6:14:20 pm

Okay, I wrote that last post off the top of my head as I was running out the door. I spent more time looking at the AL East standings than I did researching that post, so this morning, I did some actual research.

The fact is that closer examination underscores my larger point even more than I thought.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Apparently, you forgot about my alter ego before the cow sanctioned proper names. ;)"

Fair enough. And yes, a closer examination of the record reveals that you posted two posts in the AE forum two years ago. Two posts two years ago is indeed more than "never." But not by much. LOL

I'm also right that this is your second post in a Premiere forum in a year..although you'd done more the year before.

So, let's say that two years is statistically significant.

Two in the AE forum (both of them FULLY two years ago)

48 in Premiere...but only one in the past year....

Compared to...drum roll please....

7824 in the FCP forums, an average of 326 every month.

One of these things is not like the others, Jeremy. :-)


(Note that I'm saying "forums" in this post because both FCP and Premiere have more than one forum associated with them.)


[Walter Soyka] "I'm one of the FCP refugees who found a very happy home with Premiere"

Oops, you told me that, but I either a) forgot, or b) ignored it to make a rhetorical point, or c) both. I THINK it was a), but there's no telling. LOL Sorry about that...

...but for the purposes of my point about ongoing conversation, over the past two years:

248 posts in Premiere Pro's forums...

Compared to...drumroll please....

3308 for Final Cut Pro!

That's very nearly as much as you've posted in the four AE forums in that time, 3790, and a ratio of a little better than 13:1.


While I'm taking some folks' name in vain, the venerable Tim Kolb (hi Tim!) is just ahead of Jeremy and Walter as the busiest current poster. Off the top of my head, I would have said that he was going to fit the pattern, but I figured I'd actually look it up before saying so. LOL

One AE post in the past two years

Two FCP posts...both of those in the FCPX Debate forum...

Compared to...drum roll please....

3442 for Adobe Premiere!


So, while the details from yesterday's post stand corrected, my point stands: there's no necessary correlation between high levels of activity in one forum and another. Quite the contrary. There's a very high tendency to NOT post in both places.

To end where I began a couple of days ago, the numbers clarify the observation that Premiere Pro and Final Cut Pro are very, very different communities, with very different conversations.

The last thing I'm going to observe, and probably the last thing I'm going to say on the topic at all, is that the Adobe guys are champs when it comes to community engagement. I'd rather that their involvement be easier to see, among people who explicitly want to hear from them, rather than be lost among other unrelated stuff.

Yr pal,
Timmy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 14, 2013 at 6:23:10 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Fair enough. And yes, a closer examination of the record reveals that you posted two posts in the AE forum two years ago. Two posts two years ago is indeed more than "never." But not by much. LOL

I'm also right that this is your second post in a Premiere forum in a year..although you'd done more the year before."


I'll allow it. :)

Apparently, I also need to get a hobby.

Also, Hi, Tim....Kolb. :-D

Jeremy


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Tim Kolb
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 14, 2013 at 9:46:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, Hi, Tim....Kolb. :-D"

Hey Jeremy,

Back after a couple years only sporadically around...

I think Adobe was jealous of all the attention Apple got when FCPX rolled out...

Villager head count isn't quite what I remember in FCPX...but qualitatively, a high percentage have both a torch AND a pitchfork...

:-)

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 14, 2013 at 9:51:56 pm

[Tim Kolb] "Villager head count isn't quite what I remember in FCPX...but qualitatively, a high percentage have both a torch AND a pitchfork..."

True. And apparently an axe to grind!


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Tim Kolb
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 14, 2013 at 10:06:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And apparently an axe to grind!"

The way the news arrived, it did catch many by surprise...and it is a fundamental change.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Chris Harlan
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 14, 2013 at 11:44:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Tim Kolb] "Villager head count isn't quite what I remember in FCPX...but qualitatively, a high percentage have both a torch AND a pitchfork..."

True. And apparently an axe to grind!

"


Now we know what the Premiere horse was running from.


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Tim Kolb
Re: The COW has messed itself
on May 15, 2013 at 1:22:31 am

[Chris Harlan] "Now we know what the Premiere horse was running from."

He never came back...

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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