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The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.

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Aindreas Gallagher
The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 2:59:11 pm

Computer world:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9239085/Backlash_begins_against_Adob...
Backlash begins against Adobe's subscription-only plan

Wired magazine:

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/05/adobe-creative-cloud-petition/...
"Unhappy Customers Want to Parachute From Adobe’s Creative Cloud"

Direct quote from the Wired piece gets to the nub of it:
Creative Cloud isn’t really a cloud — it’s marketing term describing something that the software companies love: subscription based software.
Regardless of what Adobe calls it, many customers are unhappy. “Due to the nature of the ‘upgrade at gun point’ nature of the change, and the forced ‘renting’ of software at prices that could be jacked up at anytime, I will not continue with the Adobe brand,” wrote one person who signed the petition.


then adobe wheel out their grinning marketing guy Scott Morris, to try and talk about the amazing synergistic relationship they are about to engage with, with their customers, once they force them all to rent software:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/11/adobe-creative-cloud-interview/
Adobe exec: Creative Cloud complainers will love us once they try us

good quote from the interview:

VentureBeat: Not only on VentureBeat, but also on TechCrunch and pretty much every site that I checked, for the announcement of Creative Cloud, there were hundreds and hundreds of comments of people complaining, with maybe literally one or two people who stuck their neck out to defend it. Did you feel the reaction to the Creative Cloud thing kind of overshadowed all of the features that were announced for CC? How does Adobe plan to work around that?

Morris: Yeah, that’s a great question. You’re the first person to ask me that, and also, since we’re doing this a [couple days in], you’ve had a chance to see those comments and that reaction, so you have kind of a unique perspective.

Translation of Morris: You say that you have seen a firestorm of negative reaction, but I haven't seen it (willfully), so I'm going to say your position is unique, that I haven't seen it - and we are going to ignore it. And I will refuse to acknowledge it for the rest of the interview.

another bit:

VentureBeat: So with that said, when the entire company make such a dramatic shift in one direction, who is involved in that decision?

Morris: The business decision, in terms of the path that we chose forward, is made at a pretty senior level, but with input from people all throughout the company.

Translation of Morris: It was Shantanyu Narayen

one last bit:

VentureBeat: Was there alignment, or was there just kind of like a memo handed down? “Hey, guys, by the way…”

translation from venturebeat this was Shantanyu Narayen right?

Morris: [laughs] No, it actually didn’t work that way at all.

Translation from Morris: Absolutely - Shantanyu is hell bent on this. This is purely for the investors and he could not care less what the customers think, besides -they're about to stop being customers and become subscribers - it's the holy dream. Shantanyu will break the arm of every last creative before he will relent on this. He wants that rent money.

the adobe petition currently stands at 10,230 signatures as of 3.45 pm. GMT.
https://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-m...

I would recommend that anyone who has not signed it - sign, and also put it out on all the social networks - if it goes past 30,000 in the next fortnight, that will be approaching nearly one in ten of those currently on the cloud. that is a good headline to run.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 3:59:24 pm

Aindreas,

I think pushing all the reference articles and links, and even the petition is fine, but I suspect putting words into the mouths of interviewers and interviewees in published articles is probably a little bit over the top...

If you want to put words into the mouths of others, you should just grab the Hitler clip to do that like everybody else.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 4:21:11 pm

no - disagree. I editorialise in the last one to the point of it being a gag - but his reaction when he is informed as to the degree of the backlash is completely disingenuous. I was pointing that out. Its fair comment - i'm not putting words in anyones mouth tim - I'm putting down my own feelings about what they are saying.

the later questions from VB are quite obviously prodding in the direction of "was this a diktat from the top?" They ask twice two different ways.

However - needless to say I am of course glad that you are fine with the links, and yes as you say, even the petition, being posted to this forum.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 5:08:09 pm

Don't get me wrong...my opinion in this forum has the same weight as anyone else's, so the idea that I'm OK with what you do or not OK with what you do...it's just a discussion.

The petition seems to have been revised and is a bit better worded than when it started. It struck me as a bit crude and non-specific initially and I think that clumsy communication isn't effective communication.

Everyone who feels the petition has their feelings represented, should by all means support it.

I do think that both Adobe and the objectors are involved in spin toward their side of the equation...what I think is odd is the perception of customer powerlessness here.

(5 years ago, many editors didn't think Premiere Pro was even worth considering, now we hear cries of "monopoly"!)

Nothing would send a quicker message to Adobe than a concerted effort to replace them. All the carrying on and petitions and so on won't get the message across nearly as fast as a clear movement to other applications.

I'm not really as against this new arrangement as many are...I definitely have some concerns but I'm not as convinced that Adobe's motivations are evil as perhaps a bit sudden and lacking in options for users, but I think we all know as business people that when a customer says "I take offense at how you do this"...it could be a negotiation. When a customer says "I've replaced your services because of X"...it's now a priority issue.

A petition is great, but putting all this energy into a website that really was detailed in how to replace Adobe software with other applications would be the clearer message in my opinion.

...just sayin'.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Dave LaRonde
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 6:04:30 pm

[Tim Kolb] "Nothing would send a quicker message to Adobe than a concerted effort to replace them. All the carrying on and petitions and so on won't get the message across nearly as fast as a clear movement to other applications."

Agreed. In fact, it seems Mr. After Effects himself agrees with you, too:

[Steve Forde] "...Ultimately, you as our customer are the final judge and will vote with your wallet."

I omitted Mr. Forde's huffy remarks to a speculative question I asked in the AE forum. You'll find the whole response here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/2/1036801

To tell you the truth, I can't recall seeing a list of creative cloud subscription features and the user benefits ascribed to them that wasn't written in Adobe's own marketing-speak. Something compiled by a third party. Does such a thing exist?

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 8:12:14 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "I omitted Mr. Forde's huffy remarks to a speculative question I asked in the AE forum. You'll find the whole response here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/2/1036801"


I don't know...some might hear "huffy" from their perspective, but I don't see it.

I'm not sure what people expect Adobe employees to do...respond in a public forum that they think their bosses are just utterly wrong in their decision-making? How many of you who are employees do that? Not the ones who remain employed...

Keep in mind that if you're inside the Adobe organization, you may completely disagree with this whole policy...but you can't say that. You can try to communicate to customers how to best send a message to the people who can change this policy I suppose...because product managers can only pass messages down to us...and up to their bosses. The product manager for After Effects (or any other application for that matter) didn't get a vote in making this policy I would bet, and they don't get a veto now.

Berating the people we have interacting with us on these forums is like screaming at the customer service person at the airline gate when the plane is broken or late or whatever...it may make you feel better, but it not only doesn't place blame where it's due, it very likely hurts your chances that what power that person does have to help you will be used to its fullest extent.

You can all choose how you want to address this issue, but ascribing motivations to Adobe is unproductive enough. assuming the attitude of Adobe employees based on some turn of phrase in a forum post is really reaching...

The negotiator that gets what they want is the one that best understands the other side's position and motivation...and as long as the witch hunt continues on this side, it not only clearly shows that few of the loudest voices actually have much of a grasp on how a business the size of Adobe is run, it just raises the noise level so high that no level-headed, professional conversations can gain much traction.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Dave LaRonde
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 8:30:41 pm

Actually, I thought the gent would just ignore it. I'm well aware that it is the very rare company official who speculates on her/his company in public.

Perhaps I should have just asked the questions Adobe wanted to address: the real softballs.

I probably missed the official Adobe response to the question, "Why do non-North American subscribers have to pay more?"

It's a legitimate question, but I didn't see Adobe folks fall over themselves to answer it. Maybe I'm not observant enough; it wouldn't be the first time.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 8:36:47 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "I probably missed the official Adobe response to the question, "Why do non-North American subscribers have to pay more?""

I don't know if anyone has gotten an answer to that that they find satisfactory...I suspect it's a different answer depending on what country you're actually in as well.

I doubt it's something marketing people can answer as well as legal or international business types, but I do think it would be in good form to at least address it.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Ridley Walker
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 8:39:03 pm

[Tim Kolb] "I don't know...some might hear "huffy" from their perspective, but I don't see it.
"


I agree with Tim. The Adobe employees who post here are in a bind, regardless of their personal positions on CC.

Some of the comments here from those who oppose the new CC model are based on the understandable fear and uncertainty about what this means to each of us as individual business owners or freelancers.

Barking dogs are often just displaying fear, I take the most vitriolic comments with a grain of salt and hope the Adobe folks do as well.

At the moment, its difficult to know whether there is a real groundswell of CC opposition. I'm going to wait this out, look for alternatives. Like many I went through the FCP to PPro transition, I'm not looking forward to doing it again, but I feel coerced by Adobe. The new features in After Effects are tempting but not at the cost of giving up my independence. I have C4D already. PPro is sufficient for my current needs and I still have FCP3 and Motion to fall back on.


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David Lawrence
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 9:00:53 pm

[Ridley Walker] "Some of the comments here from those who oppose the new CC model are based on the understandable fear and uncertainty about what this means to each of us as individual business owners or freelancers.

Barking dogs are often just displaying fear, I take the most vitriolic comments with a grain of salt and hope the Adobe folks do as well. "


Just want to chime in and let folks here know I've been reading many hundreds of comments from all over the web on all types of sites - Mac focused, photography focused, design focused, anywhere digital content creation is discussed. Without exception, the comments are running 90% or more against this forced change.

People are livid.

Comments here on the COW are passionate, but this a civil tea-party compared to what I'm reading out there. Backlash is right. And FWIW, the petition is now over 11,000.

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Ridley Walker
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 9:05:01 pm

[David Lawrence] "People are livid.

Comments here on the COW are passionate, but this a civil tea-party compared to what I'm reading out there. Backlash is right. And FWIW, the petition is now over 11,000.
"


I'm with you David. I signed the petition early last week. I meant that some of the more personal negative comments directed at Adobe employees may not be warranted. We're all understandably a bit jumpy as a result of the coercion by Adobe.

As well, 11,000 vs millions of licenses doesn't add up to a large percentage. Even using Adobe's numbers of approx: 480,000 CC subscribers, 11,000 signatures from unverified users is not likely going to sway them.


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Greg Andonian
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 9:13:26 pm

[Ridley Walker] 11,000 signatures from unverified users is not likely going to sway them.

No but it's not over yet. By the time the new versions get here it will be much higher.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Greg Andonian
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 9:08:27 pm

[Tim Kolb] I think pushing all the reference articles and links, and even the petition is fine, but I suspect putting words into the mouths of interviewers and interviewees in published articles is probably a little bit over the top...

I personally don't have a problem with what Aindreas did here. Especially since he posted links to all the articles he mentioned.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 11:03:02 pm

[Greg Andonian] "I personally don't have a problem with what Aindreas did here. Especially since he posted links to all the articles he mentioned."

I wasn't trying to characterize it as some sort of violation...just that there is already so much assumed motivation being tossed around that is just a bunch of "Big business is evil" kind of sillyness...is taking actual sources of information and writing interpretation guides really necessary?

It seems like Adobe can't say anything without having their words twisted into being dismissive of their customer, greedy and only concerned about stockholders, or some version of how they're preparing to just shut down development and keep us all in chains...or lying about it if they try to say otherwise? It's like the Salem witch trials...

I understand (and even share) some of the concerns expressed, but:

Why is it impossible that current Creative Cloud customers are happy?

Why is it impossible that Adobe's future conduct is intended to be what they say it will be? (innovate faster)

Why isn't it even a possibility that they made a decision (right or wrong) that they really did think would have the best outcomes for customer and company?

Why is it that Adobe is so out-of-line for this philosophy when so much software in business enterprise management and engineering have monthly/yearly fees WITH a big initial buy price...or are charged proportionately to your business revenue for years?

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 11:41:51 pm

[Tim Kolb] "Why is it impossible that current Creative Cloud customers are happy?"

they are incredibly quiet for half a million people, I'll grant you that Tim.



[Tim Kolb] "Why is it impossible that Adobe's future conduct is intended to be what they say it will be? (innovate faster)

Why isn't it even a possibility that they made a decision (right or wrong) that they really did think would have the best outcomes for customer and company?

Why is it that Adobe is so out-of-line for this philosophy when so much software in business enterprise management and engineering have monthly/yearly fees WITH a big initial buy price...or are charged proportionately to your business revenue for years?
"


why and why and why. Here's one: why have adobe, against the wishes of their customers, pre-emtorily removed any right to own the software under license. Why, Tim, do you think this situation is so suddenly dramatic? because Adobe are offering no bloody options here. No license, no tiered suscription, no option to buyout - nothing. They are simply crazy to have pushed their entire base against the wall here, not evil, or lazy, or whatever other straw man argument you feel the need to construct - this is just crazy, and crazily misjudged.

but as you say, its really hard to tell if there is real genuine dissatisfaction with this move. As long as you put your fingers firmly in both your ears.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 11:57:06 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "they are incredibly quiet for half a million people, I'll grant you that Tim."

To fair, people that are happy with a product don't participate in threads like this. That said, the only people defending the Creative Cloud on these threads are satisfied Creative Cloud members.

The Creative Cloud has an enormously high satisfaction rating amongst these customers. Much higher than you might think.

Also, I have seen no directive from on high to "slow innovation" now that we're going with subscription pricing. That just sounds crazy to me. In fact, things are ramping up if anything.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 12:01:35 am

that sounds great kevin - I'll have a lease buyout after four years please. Just park me an archive of the current software at that point.

I'm two thousand four hundred dollars in by that point. That's reasonable right? let's have a discussion about that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 8:24:03 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'll have a lease buyout after four years please. Just park me an archive of the current software at that point...

I hear lots of requests for that, sure. Keep in mind that I'm the support guy and can answer questions about Creative Cloud and our video apps, however, I have limited influence in the major decisions Adobe makes--extremely limited.

As I've suggested, let the product managers know with the wishform. I know it seems like it will not get read or counted, but it will.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Greg Andonian
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 5:18:30 am

[Kevin Monahan] The Creative Cloud has an enormously high satisfaction rating amongst these customers. Much higher than you might think.

While that may be true, the next year with the new versions could potentially be very different- since being cloud-only is going to introduce issues that don't exist with the CS6 versions.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 8:30:13 am

[Greg Andonian] "the next year with the new versions could potentially be very different- since being cloud-only is going to introduce issues that don't exist with the CS6 versions."

Hi Greg,
Though there are always challenges with internet based businesses, we have a year of experience with delivering software via the Creative Cloud. We've got a good track record so far, and I think everything will be fine, but thanks for your concern.

Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 1:46:34 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "They are simply crazy to have pushed their entire base against the wall here, not evil, or lazy, or whatever other straw man argument you feel the need to construct - this is just crazy, and crazily misjudged.

but as you say, its really hard to tell if there is real genuine dissatisfaction with this move. As long as you put your fingers firmly in both your ears."


It's the straw men I'm weary of...I think that "crazy" may be one of the more neutral assertions so far, and you're entitled to that view, IMO. In 6 months, it may have proven to be a disaster on wheels, or it may level off and an attrition level occurs that Adobe had planned for, and the world's FCPX, Edius and Vegas user ranks grow, and we all go on with our lives...time will tell.

By the way Aindreas, speaking of fingers in ears...what I said was "Why is it impossible that current Creative Cloud customers are happy?"

...I said nothing about being unsure of the existence of considerable amounts of dissatisfaction with the move to subscription-only among the general customer base, I was referring to the implication that Adobe is somehow fudging the numbers, the projections, or the customer morale measurement of the existing Creative Cloud membership to somehow blunt the criticism. An implication that I've seen frequently over the last week or so.

I would say it doesn't seem to be the scale of the FCPX crisis here at the Cow, but I certainly have no doubt of the dissatisfaction level of numerous Adobe users with the decision.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 11:42:45 pm

[Tim Kolb] "I understand (and even share) some of the concerns expressed, but:

Why is it impossible that current Creative Cloud customers are happy?

Why is it impossible that Adobe's future conduct is intended to be what they say it will be? (innovate faster)

Why isn't it even a possibility that they made a decision (right or wrong) that they really did think would have the best outcomes for customer and company?

Why is it that Adobe is so out-of-line for this philosophy when so much software in business enterprise management and engineering have monthly/yearly fees WITH a big initial buy price...or are charged proportionately to your business revenue for years?"


Thanks for adding a little sanity to this thread, Tim. Creative Cloud customers are happy, we will keep innovating at a brisk pace, and we do want to do what's best for both customers and ourselves.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 13, 2013 at 11:58:00 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "Creative Cloud customers are happy, we will keep innovating at a brisk pace, and we do want to do what's best for both customers and ourselves."








http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 10:45:47 am

Aindreas,

Naked Gun movie excerpts are cute I suppose, but what you think is acerbic humor is insulting in this context.

Why do you expect someone to continue to have a conversation with you if your only response to anything they say or do is that they're nuts or crazy, or they're an imbecile who is obviously lying like an absurd fictional movie character?

Insulting Adobe employees who come to this forum to try to answer the questions they're able to, because you expect them to make changes they can't make even if they wanted to, is childish.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 3:31:00 pm

OK - would you ever kindly get over yourself Tim.

[Tim Kolb] "what you think is acerbic humor is insulting in this context. "

Please - here is what I was replying to - kevin speaking to you, saying the thread was insane, that CC customers are all happy, and adobe are going to keep doing as they see fit.

Thanks for adding a little sanity to this thread, Tim. Creative Cloud customers are happy, we will keep innovating at a brisk pace, and we do want to do what's best for both customers and ourselves.

that got the Naked Gun response. I wasn't in a "conversation" with Kevin - Kevin was high-fiving you and saying respondents to the thread were out of their minds.

[Tim Kolb] "your only response to anything they say or do is that they're nuts or crazy, or they're an imbecile who is obviously lying like an absurd fictional movie character?"

This is where it gets annoying - I didn't say any of those things - what the naked gun clip simply implies is that the person is not acknowledging a ludicrously obvious problem. Half the internet is going mental over CC - there is a petition with 12,000 names, wired is writing stories about the controversy - and Kevin is all - thread is insane, customers are happy, we're moving forward - now that statement deserves a bit of ridicule, and thats what it got.

But again - thanks for your timely input on how you feel everyone should comport themselves, all duly noted.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 3:56:22 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that got the Naked Gun response. I wasn't in a "conversation" with Tim - Kevin was high-fiving you and saying respondents to the thread were out of their minds. "

Aindreas,
I never said customers were out of their minds, I actually do understand some of the frustration going around. Don't forget that before Adobe, I had a freelance business for many years.

My point was that I also think it's interesting that those on the Creative Cloud love it and many on this forum don't seem to think that is possible at all. Are all those people wrong? I don't think so. No one has really addressed that except Tim. I was just agreeing with him. If that's what you think a "high five" is, that's fine.

Again, if you are unhappy with the current plan, talk to those on the product team. File your complaint on the wishform. You can also come to a user group meeting and let us know your feelings in person. How about that?

Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 4:04:48 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "I also think it's interesting that those on the Creative Cloud love it and many on this forum don't seem to think that is possible at all."


Oh please - would you come on. Who said anything about not liking the software? you and tim kolb need to stop contructing false statements for yourselves to knock down. I like the software just fine - I don't like paying perpetual rent.

[Kevin Monahan] "
Again, if you are unhappy with the current plan, talk to those on the product team. File your complaint on the wishform. You can also come to a user group meeting and let us know your feelings in person. How about that?
"


I may choose to do one or any of those things Tim - although I have to say - the wish form seems weird - this isn't a product request - I have a basic problem with what adobe, as a whole, are trying to pull here. Part of me thinks that in that scenario, the best possible thing you can do is throw as much mud as you can possibly hoist at the brand, pray for really bad press, thirty odd thousand signatures, lots of stories written reflecting negatively on adobe, and you know, maybe then they might feel a modicum of public pressure to adjust their stance. You know - like people power. Or as you say, we can all just stop talking about this, hit up that adobe wishing well form, and see what magic happens...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 4:53:48 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] I like the software just fine - I don't like paying perpetual rent."

Hi Aindreas,
Sorry I wasn't more clear. People who use the Creative Cloud do like it because of the apps, and they also like the pricing. There's a low barrier of entry for a lot of people who could not formerly afford the software. It's a bargain for a lot of people in that sense. So you can look at it from their POV. You can get a business up and running without a large cash outlay, and that appeals to certain folks.

I can understand why people like you still want perpetual licensing, and I totally get your point, but that's something only the product teams and Adobe management can change. As I said, you should contact them.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "the wish form seems weird - this isn't a product request - I have a basic problem with what adobe, as a whole, are trying to pull here."

It wasn't built expressly for this purpose, so, sorry if it doesn't seem ideal. If you do fill that out, you can bet that someone on the product team will read it. Al Mooney said in a recent video that he reads all of them, this would include yours. Other than a face to face meeting at a user group or the like, this is the best way to let the teams know how you feel.

Cheers,
Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Steve Connor
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 4:06:28 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "My point was that I also think it's interesting that those on the Creative Cloud love it and many on this forum don't seem to think that is possible at all."

I'm on it and it works very well for me as it does for the half a million or so people that signed up for it voluntarily.

However Adobe's problems aren't the quality of the CC package itself, anyone who uses other forums and follows social media know that there is a HUGE amount of backlash going on against Adobe's decision.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 4:01:42 pm

Adobe's position on this has been consistent...customer satisfaction is high among current creative cloud customers.

If you scour the internet, you'll find that any of these threads that contain posts from those customers are positive. Now...that has a qualifier...those are the customers that were comfortable with the concept in the first place, of course.

I don't think any Adobe employee that has visited this forum thinks that everyone else has fallen in love with the idea, but a great deal of the complaints are based on arbitrary predictions of what Adobe's behavior will be once a customer is on the subscription system. I don't think it's delusional for Adobe to counter those objections by pointing to the track record they already have with subscription customers.

You have to admit there is some pretty speculative stuff being tossed around on this forum, so if you're here from Adobe, and see what people are claiming is going on inside tbe company based on hearsay, 'insane' might be a word you'd come up with...

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Steve Connor
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 4:07:43 pm

[Tim Kolb] " 'insane' might be a word you'd come up with..."

You might also like to poke an angry bear with a stick

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 7:42:15 pm

[Steve Connor] "You might also like to poke an angry bear with a stick"

...just trying to make these discussions less of a circus.

Bottom line...Adobe has to know that 100% of the customer base will not like this. I think that registering dissatisfaction is warranted, but it's probably unrealistic to expect them to just change their minds.

It's not like Shantanu Narayen just decided to jot off a memo in April and say "Let's just change the fundamental business method we have lock, stock, and barrel...just to try it."

However, I also think the best way to ensure there will be NO dialog with Adobe is to make sarcastic or personal remarks that make any response impossible without sinking to that level.

...there is a clear and practical set of points that need to be made by professionals regarding the tools they use to make a living, but it's hard to get that when over the last week I've responded to everything from the appraisal of Wall Street's apparent condemnation of all this because the stock went down 6% in a week (it's currently up, more than recovering the bit it lost yesterday) to Adobe's evil plan to never do anything new again and hold us all prisoner...to reading sinister things into language in the End User License Agreement that has been in there for years...etc, etc...all meaningless distractions from the actual topic.

This is happening. Some of us will change toolsets. The reason for that change will be the new subscription system for many of you, but I also think that there are certain people who just don't want to trust a large company to do what they say they will...and I can't fault you for your skepticism.

Adobe has said that they were pleasantly surprised by the popularity of the subscription based model, and I believe them not because I think they're all wonderful people, but because Adobe's viability depends on it, and I know they aren't stupid.

What is weird is that FCP users felt they had an ongoing relationship with Apple that was broken with FCPX...Adobe users feel that Adobe is somehow breaking an ongoing trust with them, yet when you buy one piece of software and receive it, the transaction is really over...which is what I'm hearing people want.

...the only actual ongoing vendor/customer trust relationship available in this context is the one so many here are rejecting.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 8:37:59 pm

[Tim Kolb] "...the only actual ongoing vendor/customer trust relationship available in this context is the one so many here are rejecting.
"


mate - you are having a laugh. where do you get this language? Seriously?
If you want to talk linguistic hyperbole and obscuring the facts with completely ridiculous language...

"Ongoing vendor/customer trust relationship" - I'm serious, thats shagging hilarious.

they're looking for a rent cheque tim. that's it. That is our ongoing relationship.
We're not sublimating into a trust hyperspace. they want rent money.
Seriously - that was funny. You should try and sell that baby to adobe PR.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 9:01:17 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] ""Ongoing vendor/customer trust relationship" - I'm serious, thats shagging hilarious."

I was sitting next to one of those motivational posters. It had a baby bunny sleeping on a cat sleeping on a dog riding on a horse...into the sunset.

I'm over it now.

:-)

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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David Lawrence
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 10:08:43 pm

[Tim Kolb] "Bottom line...Adobe has to know that 100% of the customer base will not like this. I think that registering dissatisfaction is warranted, but it's probably unrealistic to expect them to just change their minds. "

Tim, I get where you're coming from but it's important to remember that customers can and do get companies to change. Here's a recent example:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2030120/microsoft-caves-to-office-2013-licen...

I would very much like to see this happen with Adobe and I see no reason why with enough customer pressure, it won't.

It has nothing to do with the merits of the Creative Cloud service. As you know, there's a huge difference between people satisfied with a service they freely chose, and being forced into a service you do not want with no other previously available options. The Cloud may be the future but I think Adobe jumped the gun.

This is a debate forum and we're all passionate about our tools so the dialog does get intense at times. But it's relatively civil and professional compared to what I'm reading on other forums all over the web. Many many people are very upset. The language would set your hair on end!

I feel it's our responsibility as people who care deeply about Adobe - both the tools and the company - to let them know we think they're making a mistake. Adobe's plans for the future won't matter if enough customers refuse to buy in.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 10:22:19 pm

[David Lawrence] "...there's a huge difference between people satisfied with a service they freely chose, and being forced into a service you do not want with no other previously available options.

... Adobe's plans for the future won't matter if enough customers refuse to buy in."


I agree with what you're saying. I suspect that Adobe is going to shed some users, and I doubt they'll be surprised.

A lot of what I'm hearing indicates that they understand some of what they've stated they will do, as far as innovation and support, will need to be proven by deeds as opposed to words, and they intend to deliver.

I think that users should definitely make their voices heard, but this decision wasn't made lightly and I doubt they'll just switch back without giving it a chance.

I only know that I use the tools, so I'm in. We'll see how it plays out.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Hamdani Milas
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 12:57:35 am

[Kevin Monahan] Thanks for adding a little sanity to this thread, Tim. Creative Cloud customers are happy, we will keep innovating at a brisk pace, and we do want to do what's best for both customers and ourselves.

Kevin Monahan


Mr Monahan

By inference are you calling those in this thread, and thousands of others across the world, who are critical of Adobe's subscription only/no perpetual licenses pricing policy for Creative Cloud as being insane?

Adobe itself recognises the risks inherent in what is being perceived as an aggressive push to round-up their customers into a binding agreement which gives all control to Adobe, and none to their customers, for using software that is essential to the livelihoods of millions of users.

Quote from Adobe's FORM 10-Q QUARTERLY REPORT PURSUANT TO SECTION 13 OR 15(d) OF THE SECURITIES EXCHANGE ACT OF 1934 For the quarterly period ended March 1, 2013. PART II—OTHER INFORMATION ITEM 1. LEGAL PROCEEDINGS ITEM 1A. RISK FACTORS.

Extract begins:

The increased emphasis on a cloud strategy may give rise to risks that could harm our business.
To accelerate the growth of our business, we launched our subscription-based Creative Cloud offering in fiscal 2012. As a result, we expect to derive an increasing portion of our revenues in the future from subscriptions to our creative tools and cloud-based offerings. This subscription model prices and delivers our products in a way that differs from the historical pricing and delivery methods of our creative tools. These changes reflect a shift from perpetual license sales and distribution of our software in favor of providing our customers the right to access certain of our software in a hosted environment or use downloaded software for a specified subscription period. This cloud strategy requires continued investment in product development and cloud operations, and may give rise to a number of risks, including the following:

• if new or current customers desire only perpetual licenses, our subscription sales may lag behind expectations;

• if new or current customers desire to purchase or renew only point product subscriptions rather than acquire the entire Creative Cloud offering, our subscription sales may lag behind our expectations;

• the increased emphasis on a cloud strategy may raise concerns among our installed perpetual license customer base;

• we may be unsuccessful in maintaining our target pricing, new seat adoption and projected renewal rates, or we may select a target price that is not optimal and could negatively affect our sales or earnings;

• our revenues are expected to decline over the short term and may decline over the long term as a result of this strategy;

• our shift to a subscription licensing model may result in confusion among our customers, partners, resellers and investors;

• our relationships with existing partners that resell perpetual license products may be damaged; and

• we may incur costs at a higher than forecasted rate as we expand our cloud operations.

Revenue from our product and service offerings may be difficult to predict.
As previously discussed, we are devoting significant resources to the development of product and service offerings as well as new distribution models where our operating history is less extensive. As our customers' purchases trend away from perpetual licenses toward subscriptions, we are experiencing and will continue to experience a deferral of revenues and cash received from customers. During this transition, our perpetual license revenue may decline more quickly than anticipated.

Extract ends.

This information is provided under requirement of law so that Adobe's investors and stakeholders can look beyond the smoke and mirrors marketing hype. Seen in the light of the above, is Adobe's aggressive push to a subscription business model for Creative Cloud actually a high stakes gamble?

There are a lot of customers out there who are mad as hell over Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription only policy and maybe they're not going to take it any more.

The furore across the many forums that I've been reading is as much about loss of trust in Adobe as it is about pricing policies and lack of perpetual licenses. Trust. Respect for the customer. Apart from the mention of damage to relationships with resellers mentioned above, these critical aspects of doing business at any level seem to be missing from the risks assessment.

If Adobe wants to do what's best for their customers, is Adobe listening? Or just repeating their marketing mantras over and over?

Hamdani Milas

Independent producer, director, cinematographer, writer, editor
Milas Film Productions, Hong Kong
http://www.milasfilm.com


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 4:09:10 am

[Hamdani Milas] "This information is provided under requirement of law so that Adobe's investors and stakeholders can look beyond the smoke and mirrors marketing hype."

Not a lot of damning evidence here, frankly...for a public company, disclosure like this is standard fare...spelling out the possible negatives communicates to the board that they've been considered and taken into account:

"Customers may not like our new carbonated cola beverage formulation, even if we package it in the same red can..."

"The marketplace may prefer larger, heavier cellular phones that mount in their cars with powerful antennas instead of small, handheld devices that will rob them of their last moment's peace in their lives...EVER."

"The typical Pontiac customer may not want to be seen in the world's ugliest crossover vehicle, but we feel naming it the "Aztec" will not in any way draw images of human sacrifice into the prospective customer's mind."

Etc, etc, etc, etc...

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 8:48:43 am

[Hamdani Milas] "Mr Monahan

By inference are you calling those in this thread, and thousands of others across the world, who are critical of Adobe's subscription only/no perpetual licenses pricing policy for Creative Cloud as being insane?"


Hello Mr. Milas,
I'm sorry, I do support here on the forums but I do not have anything to do with pricing or subscription models.

If you have a problem with our pricing structure, please file a complaint using the wish form, AKA bug fix/feature request form here: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish Choose the product(s) that you use the most and let the team know your thoughts. Your note will go directly to a product manager and that person will read it.

Thanks,
Kevin Monahan

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 1:43:10 am

Happy where most of the 900 who drank koolaid in Guyana, & the 90 who suffocated for heavens gate.

RC


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Tim Kolb
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 2:29:58 am

[Ricardo Marty] "Happy where most of the 900 who drank koolaid in Guyana, & the 90 who suffocated for heavens gate."

(sigh)

...and something tells me that the few who were trying to have a practical and logical conversation to inform people about what was ACTUALLY going on were the ones who finally departed in frustration and left the hysterical doomsday-ranting masses to their fate.

...I think I can relate.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 2:31:15 am

So were those that where being forced. I can relate.

Ricardo Cardona


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Michael Hoefler
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 4:32:48 am

To Kevin and Dennis

Yes, there are happy customer. I am one. BUT!!!!

Why do I have to pay more for the subscription then others? Because I am in Europe!!
This is ridiculous.
Adobe, adress this!!

One subsciption, one price, worldwide.

Michael


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 5:07:16 pm

[Michael Hoefler] "Yes, there are happy customer. I am one. BUT!!!!

Why do I have to pay more for the subscription then others? Because I am in Europe!!
This is ridiculous.
Adobe, adress this!!

One subsciption, one price, worldwide."


Hi Michael,
It is a problem that I think you should tell the product managers about. Fill out this form (I know it's a feature request form, but that's OK): http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

Best of luck,
Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Greg Andonian
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 4:50:24 am

[Tim Kolb] Why is it impossible that current Creative Cloud customers are happy?

FWIW- If I was a current Creative Cloud customer, I think I would be happy too. There are a lot of things about the cloud that I like. But loosing the ability to purchase the apps, and knowing that I MUST keep paying Adobe every month if I don't want to loose access my files really changes everything.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Jason Bernagozzi
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 9:57:26 am

I am happy as a creative cloud customer. I have been a big fan of the changes Adobe has implemented since CS6. If you like the software, buy it. If not, go somewhere else.

I most certainly joined the bandwagon when FCPX came out because they gave us a product that was unsatisfactory. I dont have an issue about the pricing since I use most of the apps available in the cloud, which is why I joined when it was first released.

The reason I haven't come to the conversation until now is that I am and hopefully will stay happy with CC. Does this raise some basic costs for editors who only want a couple of products? Yeah, it does, but hopefully Adobe will keep its promise of being able to implement more features faster because of this model.

This whole "no one is happy because they aren't contributing to the conversation" nonsense is because it is always the extremes that yell the loudest. Just like in politics, the nutjobs get all the attention because the rest of us have shit to do.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 14, 2013 at 5:15:03 pm

I am also a Creative Cloud customer. For the most part, it has been a good experience. However, I have admit things have changed from when I signed up. Originally I computed the cost of upgrading from 5.5 to 6 and decided that at $30 a month it was worth giving it a test run. I figured if it didn't work for me I could always move to a CS7 perpetual license at a bit of a higher upgrade cost. I suspect there are many like me.

When my cost go up to $50.00 per month, I am not sure I want to remain on board with CC. But I no longer have any option other than to purchase a CS6 license. And I understand it is not the baliwick of the Adobe guys that come on here.

Still it is what worries folks the most IMHO. It is the point of resistance to CC, especially to those that only use two or three products (the fine artist or ocassional user). Nobody is complaining about the performance of the software. The worry is "how much is this going to cost me? Can I afford it? Am I going to have to pay Adobe for the rest of my life if I want to continue with their new software from this point forward?" I think Adobe is going to have to honestly address these issues if they want to really mitigate the backlash.


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Andrew Thornton
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 20, 2013 at 3:04:07 am

I've read a lot of forums on this. Despite trying to find any positive comments about CC, I would put opposition in comments to 95%.

As a recent graduate in graphics design I have the entire CS6 suite that I got at the student prices. I have gone from CS3 to CS5 to CS6 because I took awhile to complete my studies; I spent a lot of time investigating computer technologies and learning some computer programming. I have never in any way pirated software from anyone. So I have a moral platform to stand on.

I will not "buy" this CC nonsense under any circumstances. I put "buy" in quotes because "rent" or "borrow" would be more accurate terms. If it costs me professional income to not buy CC then that is just too bad. I am NOT, under any circumstances spending MY money on thin air, oxygen, flim flam, smoke clouds, imaginary software or what ever way you want to describe it. I should spend 600 bucks a year and keep NOTHING, nada, nein, zip, zero, zilch...

Do you think that I am totally bonkers?

Tell you what I will do. I will take 600 bucks out of my bank account. For every day of the year I will spend 15 minutes staring at the pile of mullah and doing yogi-style TM meditation on it. I'll even sit on it. Then when the year is up I will light a match and burn the whole 600 bucks.

That to me is all 600 bucks of CC is good for. Heck. Yesterday I bought a 3D quality product, zbrush, for about 700 dollaRS. yOU know what I thought when I downloaded it? Now I have something. If this money had been spent on Adobe CC then I would own nothing.

What an absolute conjob by Adobe. I have signed the petition, of course.


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Alejandro Peralta
Re: The word "Backlash" begins to appear in print, petition passes ten thousand signatures in seven days.
on May 28, 2013 at 9:02:51 am

Hello guys!

First post on Creativecow and it seems like I'll just vent a little bit ;)

Many people have made very good points on why they don't like CC. I really liked that someone mentioned the fact that the half million "happy" (not questioning whether they really are or not, but there is no real survey or data available to me stating that they all are)... anyway... the fact that that half million users are happy doesn't mean a thing! They might be happy because they selected that method of using Adobe products that suit their needs. How many millions more are happy using the Creative Suite the traditional way? I bet we beat the half million using CC right?

But anyway... I wanted to say why this method makes absolutely no sense to any small (and maybe even medium) business, amateurs, aficionados, or full of passion people. Yes, we will have the latest tools and upgrades... What happens when I retire? Do I have to forget my profession? Do I have to stop taking photos and editing them? I won't be making any money then, and so are not the ones, right now, that use Adobe products casually. They are simply passionate about photography (for example) and want to use Photoshop (for example). I have started recommending my clients to stay away from many Adobe products, especially because for their needs many competitors are enough.

But, for those who still don't get our point, let me make it a bit more extreme (but very comparable to what Adobe is trying to pull here). I seriously hope that I don't give anybody ideas with this I am about to say! That would be disastrous!

Imagine now, that Nikon, and Canon, Hasselblad and camera makers in general, decide to "upgrade" their firmware and from now on, you won't buy any camera, you will only pay a monthly license to use it. You would have to connect your camera to your computer and check, once a month, whether you are up to date or not. It will be a "very convenient" price but without it, you cannot take photos or use your camera in any possible way... Just imagine! How is that different from what Adobe is trying to impose here?

I for one was already looking for alternatives after the buggy Lightroom 4.00 affected my business and my free time quite a bit. I will stay with the license I have from Master Collection until it is unusable and will incorporate other alternatives and get familiar with them. A long time ago I stopped converting to DNG, so I am, more and more, distancing myself from the great products from Adobe. Love the products, not so much the company.

Like some people mentioned before, trust on the company can be lost.

And hey! Nice to meet you all... The clip from naked gun really cracked me! That was hilarious!


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