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do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?

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Aindreas Gallagher
do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 11, 2014 at 1:33:42 am

if so, are adobe exploiting those software monopolies?

does their new stance with unstable remote DRM represent an exploitation of that understood monopoly where it applies?
that there is nothing left to answer them with? that adobe finally have us behind the eight ball?

adobe looks great. they have finally leveraged market leg breaker share to do any last thing that might occur to them.
who doesn't think adobe will do all the things that might occur to the board really soon.

millions are locked in now - what in the hell is going to stop Shantanyu's adobe doing exactly what they feel like to all of them?

there is almost no standing opposition left to PS. AE. ILLUS, PDF PR and the rest of it.

they are unopposed new subscription monopolies. When you get confused how stupid we are, you look at the christmas turkeys.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 11, 2014 at 2:57:49 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "what in the hell is going to stop Shantanyu's adobe doing exactly what they feel like to all of them?"

AVID, Lightworks, FCPX, Edius, FCP7, Vegas, Pixelmator, HitFilm, iDraw, etc. etc. etc.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 13, 2014 at 1:10:18 pm

God help us! The Adobe robot droids are marching over the hill near my house! They're the size of buildings! All is lost! They're about to............

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Rainer Schubert
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 13, 2014 at 10:13:32 pm
Last Edited By Rainer Schubert on Jun 14, 2014 at 1:21:17 am

Wow! Put this guy on Comedy Central! Cutting sarcasm and biting satire, plus scatological humor, combined to make the average sixth grader roll on the floor laughing. My sides hurt...

Rainer Schubert
Elephants never forget Productions


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Chris Pettit
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 13, 2014 at 10:57:23 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "God help us! The Adobe robot droids are marching over the hill near my house! They're the size of buildings! All is lost! They're about to............"

[Joseph W. Bourke] "Yes, this is a debate forum, but I fear that some of the people "debating" here don't know the definition of the word."


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Gary Huff
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 14, 2014 at 12:42:53 am

Obviously, sarcasm was all this topic deserved.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 14, 2014 at 5:16:01 pm

Aindreas Gallagher: "there is almost no standing opposition left to PS. AE. ILLUS, PDF PR and the rest of it."

Other than the fact that the above is basically true, at least 4 out of 5, depending on your preference of NLE. Nothing comes close to the functionality of Photoshop. AE, you are stuck. If you have ongoing work tied up in most Adobe apps and want to continue, it sure quacks like a monopoly...

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 15, 2014 at 2:31:45 pm

This whole monopoly argument gets to me. All of the players who create competing products (Adobe, CorelDraw, GIMP, Pixelmator, etc.) exist in a free market. Just because there is no good or at least comparable competition, in no way means that Adobe holds a monopoly; it simply means that Adobe has the best product (to date), and are the dominant player in the market. It is a naturally formed monopoly, not due to collusion, or some other evil intent (like Apple's cartel in the ebook price-fixing scheme); it's just because they made the best product.

Should we drag Cadbury into court because they make the best milk chocolate? Or Martin, because they make the best acoustic guitar? The Adobe position might be better described as an Oligopoly, in which a few major players dominate the market. Just because Motion isn't as good, or powerful as After Effects, is no reason to scream monopoly at Adobe. I started out in this industry using CorelDraw and their Paint product, and moved to Photoshop and Illustrator because they were better and more powerful (and the standard in which clients and agencies delivered elements to me), not because I was coerced into it.

It's a relatively small market, and Photoshop and After Effects will never reach the critical mass like Word, or Excel (or other mass distribution software), so their perceived control of the market (in my opinion) is due more to their having the best product, not exerting some fruit-company like intent to maintain a closed, controlled system, and manipulate the e-book market to achieve dominance, and put Amazon under.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 15, 2014 at 4:49:54 pm

I prefer the fruit company model, with it's vagaries, to endless rental. Also prefer the OS and hardware integration, but that is another subject. If anyone can make you rent forever, the chances are good they have a monopoly. Just glad my work doesn't depend on After Effects, and I can still make multiple versions of Photoshop run.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 15, 2014 at 6:50:55 pm

I can't argue with you on that point, Jim. I'm still on CS6 myself, and holding...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Chris Jacek
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 19, 2014 at 5:55:47 pm
Last Edited By Chris Jacek on Jun 19, 2014 at 6:01:51 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "This whole monopoly argument gets to me. All of the players who create competing products (Adobe, CorelDraw, GIMP, Pixelmator, etc.) exist in a free market. Just because there is no good or at least comparable competition, in no way means that Adobe holds a monopoly; "

Actually, it does. Historically, this is the very definition of a monopoly. Monopoly laws do not require evil intent. They merely require that any player or small group of players dominates the market to the extent that there is no reasonably viable competition. In practice, however, monopolies have been accepted and even encouraged over the past 30-35 years. The breakup of AT&T by the Carter administration was the last significant effort to stop monopolistic tendencies in U.S. commerce, and we know how well that worked for Carter.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 20, 2014 at 3:29:44 am

Umm...Chris. The very definition of monopoly is "the complete control of trade in particular goods or the supply of a particular service."

Adobe has no complete control of trade in any of its software categories - for After Effects, there is Motion (and others), for Premiere Pro there is FCPX, AVID, Edius, and others, and on, and on...

In no way, shape, manner, or form, does Adobe have a monopoly. Does it have best of show in some of those categories? Yes, but I wouldn't begin to suggest any of them, because my opinion is just that. Yours may vary...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Chris Jacek
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 21, 2014 at 5:24:57 am

[Joseph W. Bourke] "Umm...Chris. The very definition of monopoly is "the complete control of trade in particular goods or the supply of a particular service." "

Umm.....Joseph, have you ever seen a person who actually types the word "Ummm" when presenting a point who did not come across as an arrogant jerk? I'm honestly not trying to be mean, but why on earth do you feel the need to do that? It's belittling. See how much of a jerk I sound like starting my response that way. I want to smack myself for even using it to make a point. Seriously, read any response from anyone that starts with "Umm", and tell me that you don't agree. This is obviously a big pet peeve of mine. I also hate it when people go on and on belaboring a point about one of their pet peeves.

Okay, setting all the silliness aside. The textbook definition of monopoly is not an appropriate reference point for this discussion, in the same way that the textbook definition of "democracy" is not an appropriate way to judge our government (or any other representative government). In the same way that we don't vote on every single law, with every single registered voter, there has never been a company that has had "complete control of trade in particular goods, or the supply of a particular service." There have been, however, several instances of breaking up of air-quote "monopolies," for controlling so much of an industry that it interferes with fair commerce. AT&T didn't have 100% of the phone market when they were broken up.

If you look up Monopoly on Wikipedia, this line is including in the description: "Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods."

I think there is an argument that could be made that products like Photoshop and After Effects are approaching this definition. Do I necessarily believe that we are there, or ever will be, I'm not sure, but I do not think it is fair to dismiss the notion completely.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 22, 2014 at 2:51:28 am

Ummm...Chris. I understand that it's a pet peeve of yours. Now. I didn't realize you would take it so hard, but I accept your point that it seems belittling, and apologize. I honestly would not take it that way if someone wrote that to me. The "Ummm" was more a voiced head scratch, thinking "Why didn't this guy look up the definition of monopoly before putting forth a definition?".

I don't dismiss your notion that a monopoly might develop, but with all the competition out there for most of Adobe's offerings, and the fact that none of them have surpassed Adobe's sales, and that Adobe's products have become industry standards (I'm getting windy here), it just seems to me that it's a valid competition. But none of the other products have come close (although that's just my opinion). Many will argue AVID or FCPX's superiority to Premiere Pro, some prefer Motion to After Effects, etc. I really don't see it as much more than Adobe's having built a better mouse trap.

I also don't trust Wikipedia's definitions the way I do the Oxford English Dictionary's, but I get your point.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Chris Jacek
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 24, 2014 at 6:20:33 am

I agree that Premiere is not even close to a monopolistic area. The only ones that I would consider being in that ballpark would be After Effects and Photoshop. And if I knew more about publishing, maybe I'd guess In Design, but it's really just a guess.

It's hard to find anything that is comparable to PS at this point, and to a lesser extent AE. Some like Motion, but I don't really see it as having much of a foothold. I think the question on monopolistic tendencies comes from a forced subscription model for products that dominate the market. I think that level of market dominance is definitely in line with monopolies in the past, like AT&T. But because there really is no supply-chain control, or retail space, or anything else that Adobe can exert much control over, I doubt it would even go much further than philosophical discussions. It's not like Comcast/Time Warner, who could control at least parts of every aspect of entertainment and technology. That is far more worthy of concern.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 24, 2014 at 2:38:07 pm

I agree with you, Chris. I wish Combustion were still around. Several years ago (around Combustion v2), it totally blew AE away in terms of keying and tracking. Even the Paint module was pretty cool in its own way. It would be a slightly different discussion here if it were still around. In a sense, it still is around, although no one seems to know about Autodesk Composite; it came with my license of 3DS Max 2011, and I didn't discover it until a year or so later, when I stumbled upon an article which mentioned it.

It's sort of the grandchild of Combustion and Toxic, and has some pretty powerful features:

http://docs.autodesk.com/MAYAUL/2014/ENU/Composite/index.html

I don't see it becoming a standard anytime soon, but it seems to still be in development.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 24, 2014 at 3:24:49 pm

Autodesk Composite is now available free from Autodesk via their online Exchange Store:

http://apps.exchange.autodesk.com/en

Just click through into the 3ds Max store and search for "composite."

It's not clear to me what its development status is.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 25, 2014 at 1:20:41 am

Thanks Walter -

Here's the direct link to the software:

http://apps.exchange.autodesk.com/3DSMAX/en/Detail/Index?id=appstore.exchan...

It appears to be still under some form of development, since there is no eol statement. Free for Win7 and 8.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 25, 2014 at 10:56:38 am

[Joseph W. Bourke] "It appears to be still under some form of development, since there is no eol statement. Free for Win7 and 8."

CG Channel [link] says, "Both products – Toxik developed by Autodesk, MatchMover acquired with RealViz in 2008 – are no longer actively developed, but are bundled with 3ds Max and Maya, the former under the name Autodesk Composite."

(MatchMover is also now freely available.)

I'm not sure what that means. Maintenance only maybe?

A discussion of a few other compositing options begins here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/69145#69292

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: do adobe hold multiple software monopolies?
on Jun 25, 2014 at 1:26:52 pm

Thanks for that info, Walter. I've played around with Composite enough to know that there would need to be some serious re-arranging of my muscle memory and brain function (what's left of it) to jump into something like Composite. I've been using AE for so long that my Combustion memory has long disappeared, and I'm a cog in the wheel of AE, for better or worse.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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