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The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.

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Aindreas Gallagher
The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 8, 2014 at 11:08:21 pm

one more sure -

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9248860/Jonny_Evans_Adobe_CS_and_the...

The Atlantic Council recommends that enterprises take steps now to protect themselves, insisting on:

- A commitment to at least 99.5% uptime. - Financial penalties for service failure need to be locked into the SLA|.

- Knowing where data is hosted and the legal requirements around that data.

- Easy data migration so they can shift to other service providers without lock-in.

- A regular "real-world" backup of all data held in the cloud.

- Rock-solid security.

Cloud services are already part of the economic infrastructure. As they become even more pervasive, the consequences of service failure become even more serious.


the interesting point to note is that, in the case of the majority of adobe's subscribers, they have effectively created by force, small scale tillage tenants - such agreements as they might be binded to at enterprise may likely never present themselves to the forced cloud based DRM small scale creative that forms such a large part of the subscriber base. certainly that seems adobe's position brushing off all queries at PR flak level. Narayen's Adobe doesn't seem to see the subscribers as a group they have to explain themselves to. Given they are tenants. the near monopoly landlord can always brush off the boiler issues.

certainly adobe have shown no inclination to describe or explain in any detail the causes of the 28 hour outage, or outline in any legally liable detail the steps they are undertaking to ensure it doesn't happen again. They have in large part attempted to blank the 1.8 million subscribers, apparently because they feel the freedom to do so.

as at the close of the article:

Certainly Adobe's massive failure caused serious problems to its customers, and its communication with customers since has been far less than satisfactory. However, the incident serves as fair warning as to the likelihood and potential severity of cloud failures.


there is an issue with the conduct and communication of adobe, their perception of their obligations and duties beyond picking up the forced monthly rent, and the ramshackle disgrace that is their support backend, which they have previously stated they are considering downgrading from even the laughable live support level in the case of the creative cloud.

I think on some basic level a lot of people in adobe must nearly be ashamed of the company at this point. It's hard to see how they wouldn't be.

as a company operating the DRM subscription architecture their previously licensed customers are in vocal opposition to, they have proved so unstable that (drumroll): in one single year span of the remote DRM operation, they have lost all the subscriber credit cards, and then they lost control of the entire DRM login scheme, for a period that stretched, globally, over an entire billing client day.

during this latest fiasco, their CEO and board remained entirely silent, and all journalist queries were basically slapped in the face at a low PR level - all the way to Reuters.

I'm seriously asking - what does that conduct make people think about that board, and that CEO?

I'm not saying there is a formal fit and proper scenario here - but there has to be an open question as to the public conduct and due moral diligence to their new forced subscriber base, specifically on the part of CEO Shantanyu Narayen. A CEO who has opted to say not a single word about a failure so totemic that it has unleashed reams of copy about the dangers of cloud DRM.

As steward of Warnock's adobe exactly who is Shantanyu Narayen?
And where has Adobe collectively managed to get themselves to as a company - that they feel totally comfortable publicly acting in this fashion?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 9, 2014 at 2:06:02 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "And where has Adobe collectively managed to get themselves to as a company - that they feel totally comfortable publicly acting in this fashion?"

Because Apple.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 9, 2014 at 12:01:24 pm

[Gary Huff] "Because Apple."

Of course it is Gary

Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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Tim Wilson
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 9, 2014 at 3:43:15 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "- A commitment to at least 99.5% uptime."

365 days x 24 hours = 8760 hours

8760 hours / 28 hours = 99.68% uptime

This is not meant as a comment on your post in any way. Merely a mathematical observation.


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Ryan Holmes
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 9, 2014 at 4:13:15 pm

[Tim Wilson] "365 days x 24 hours = 8760 hours

8760 hours / 28 hours = 99.68% uptime

This is not meant as a comment on your post in any way. Merely a mathematical observation."


This made me laugh....it's the exact thing I thought of after reading the OP 99.5% uptime! :-) So at least in that area we can all agree Adobe has met the standard?!

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 9, 2014 at 4:49:32 pm

ha! yes it did occur to me they maybe weren't a million miles off there alright.

still - they do fail one or two of the other recommendations...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 9, 2014 at 5:07:38 pm

Not sure the recommended downtime should be all in one go though!

Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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Richard Herd
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 9, 2014 at 4:04:51 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I think on some basic level a lot of people in adobe must nearly be ashamed of the company at this point. "

Not if they have a matching 401(k) plan.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:39:49 am

[Richard Herd] "Not if they have a matching 401(k) plan."

Stock price does seem to be the major concern now. It certainly isn't customer access.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 9, 2014 at 11:52:11 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "- Easy data migration so they can shift to other service providers without lock-in.
"


There's one requirement they sure as heck aren't making. You might be able to move the data, but you won't be able to do much with it. I know Gary, XML...

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 1:42:36 am

[Jim Wiseman] "You might be able to move the data, but you won't be able to do much with it. I know Gary, XML..."

Your data is your video, graphics, and renders. The project file is but a small portion of that anyway.

I am curious why it's constantly "my data" and "our files" instead of the explicitness of "the project file". Perhaps because it doesn't sound quite as bad if the reference was accurate?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:32:49 am

[Gary Huff] "Your data is your video, graphics, and renders. The project file is but a small portion of that anyway.
"


The project file is the most difficult and valuable part of the work. It is the final sculpture from the raw data of images and sounds. It is the only part of the entire work that molds the communication to the audience. Really the only part that matters. The results of all of your work. The hardest part, in my opinion. Where it all comes together. I find access to that project to be of ultimate importance. You can see it how you wish.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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David Lawrence
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:36:43 am

[Jim Wiseman] "The project file is the most difficult and valuable part of the work. It is the final sculpture from the raw data of images and sounds. It is the only part of the entire work that molds the communication to the audience. Really the only part that matters. The results of all of your work. The hardest part, in my opinion. Where it all comes together. I find access to that project to be of ultimate importance. You can see it how you wish."

This. ^

_______________________
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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 8:35:49 am

[Jim Wiseman] "It is the final sculpture from the raw data of images and sounds. It is the only part of the entire work that molds the communication to the audience. Really the only part that matters. The results of all of your work."

When I flip on the TV or fire up Netflix I'm not watching project files. ;)


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David Lawrence
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 8:54:49 am

[Andrew Kimery] "When I flip on the TV or fire up Netflix I'm not watching project files. ;)"

No more than when you hear a symphony, you're listening to the score. ;)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Steve Connor
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:04:24 am

[David Lawrence] "No more than when you hear a symphony, you're listening to the score. ;)"

Good analogy.

Can't believe anyone would argue that the project file isn't extremely important.

Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:31:28 am

[Steve Connor] "Can't believe anyone would argue that the project file isn't extremely important."

No one is arguing that. However, the phrase is never, "I need access to my extremely important Premiere Project file after I am done paying." The phrasing is always, "I don't want to lose access to my files" or "I need to be able to have access to my data." etc.

Which I find to be a bit disingenuous.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:51:46 am

[Gary Huff] "No one is arguing that. However, the phrase is never, "I need access to my extremely important Premiere Project file after I am done paying." The phrasing is always, "I don't want to lose access to my files" or "I need to be able to have access to my data." etc.

Which I find to be a bit disingenuous.
"


Fair point

Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:32:06 pm

[Gary Huff] ""I don't want to lose access to my files" or "I need to be able to have access to my data." etc."

sure but if I was going to pick access to one particular bundle of data - it's going to be the project file. as pieces of data go, it feels to me like the mother lode, and its the one piece of data directly tied to subscription access - the shot video and the audio material are not - the file holding all your transformative work on them is the one locked to remote DRM and a subscription payment.

that's what makes you feel like a tenant. And after the DRM boiler just burst - adobe sure are acting like a disengaged, happily silent landlord.

that said - everyone here knows that - we just ascribe different levels of importance to the problem. I've personally decided I'm flat out not OK with it. nevermind the conduct of adobe in all this.

although that part, how adobe choose to publicly conduct themselves - that part does inform the feeling that this probably really isn't going to be alright going forward. I don't like on any level the situation the project files and software are in, and I don't much like the company that's merrily locking them up with dodgy remote DRM.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:09:29 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:09:41 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "sure but if I was going to pick access to one particular bundle of data - it's going to be the project file."

Over and above your video, audio, images, and renders?


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Dave LaRonde
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:42:28 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:43:42 pm

[Gary Huff]: "Over and above your video, audio, images, and renders?"

Absolutely. Only a very misguided person would fail to back up video, audio and images. The project files allow you to reconstruct the entire project. Rendering simply takes time.

Project files are the keys, representing the short hairs by which a Creatve Cloud rental currently holds you.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 2:56:44 am

[Dave LaRonde] "Only a very misguided person would fail to back up video, audio and images."

That's not what I asked. You would take your project file over your footage, graphics, audio, and renders.

If need be, I can reconstruct any edit from that, sans a project file. With a fully working project file and no media, I have nothing.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 8:59:13 pm

WHAT: are you actually proposing an either-or situation? Are you nuts?

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:38:56 am

[Dave LaRonde] "WHAT: are you actually proposing an either-or situation? Are you nuts?"

I guess you didn't follow the line of conversation? Here it is how it played out:

[Aindreas Gallagher] "
sure but if I was going to pick access to one particular bundle of data - it's going to be the project file. as pieces of data go,"


[Gary Huff] "Over and above your video, audio, images, and renders?"

[Dave LaRonde] "Absolutely."

Then you went on to talk about:

[Dave LaRonde] "Only a very misguided person would fail to back up video, audio and images."

Which isn't what the conversation was about in the first place.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:35:18 pm

[Gary Huff]: "...Which I find to be a bit disingenuous."

...and some would say you are picking nits.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 2:59:44 am

[Dave LaRonde] "
...and some would say you are picking nits."


Then will you be honest forthwith and explicitly mention that you lose access to opening a project file instead of your "data" and "files", or will you still use those terms in order to confuse those who might be new here, thus bolstering your argument within their limited understanding?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 4:27:10 pm

I do believe I did say you could move the data. On that point, Coppola shot thousands of hours of footage for his Vietnam masterpiece. Would anyone go to the theater for a month to see it all randomly, or do they go to see "Apocalypse Now"?

I don't think too many people would be confused by that difference. And yes, I know it was edited on film. Coppola was one of the first to move to video techniques in feature production and pioneered many. I could discuss this if you like. At One Pass Video in SF at the same time we were also pioneering usage of video in features in the late '70's. We called it "Video Film Style". We had the first one inch systems in the US and worked with some of the people at Zoetrope and the entire highest end SF film technical community. Sorry, a bit OT, but for clarification.

Be that as it may, what you saw on the screen was today's equivalent of the project file, not the raw footage, the raw data. The project file is what Adobe holds over us. The only reason to pay them. Not very confusing.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 5:43:23 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "On that point, Coppola shot thousands of hours of footage for his Vietnam masterpiece. Would anyone go to the theater for a month to see it all randomly, or do they go to see "Apocalypse Now"?"

Coppola won't go back to the "project file" for any re-edits. He has a "master render" as it were, that he adjusts on any "NLE" (i.e. flatbed editor).

[Jim Wiseman] "I don't think too many people would be confused by that difference."

Well, you wrong there. The constant, "I don't want to lose access to my files!" would be very confusing for someone who isn't savvy on everything going on with Creative Cloud and this debate. You're not losing access to your "files", you are losing access to software that will open .PPROJ project files. That's a huge difference, and one I feel is being clouded simply because it makes CC sound more ominous than it otherwise would if you were being explicit about what you mean.

[Jim Wiseman] "Be that as it may, what you saw on the screen was today's equivalent of the project file, not the raw footage, the raw data."

And because that old system is now obsolete, you can't really go back to it to make adjustments to the raw footage, now can you?

[Jim Wiseman] "The project file is what Adobe holds over us."

And, in my opinion, that's not much of anything to "hold" over me. I can just as easily make tweaks to a ProRes/DNxHD/etc. master file. And, if something more is needed, I can reconstruct the entire project in whatever NLE it needs to be done in. Just like if I actually needed something from those old Media 100 projects. Or if you had something in, say, Final Cut Pro 3.


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David Lawrence
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 8:20:50 pm

[Gary Huff] "And, in my opinion, that's not much of anything to "hold" over me. I can just as easily make tweaks to a ProRes/DNxHD/etc. master file. "

BS.

Let's say I have my project file and all of my media assets.

You just have ProRes/DNxHD/etc. master file.

The client calls and says they want all the dissolves to be a second or two longer. Oh and we need to change the lower third titles.

Good luck getting these simple tweaks done with just your rendered master.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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Tim Wilson
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 9:18:33 pm

[Gary Huff] "And, if something more is needed, I can reconstruct the entire project in whatever NLE it needs to be done in."

[David Lawrence] "Good luck getting these simple tweaks done with just your rendered master."

As much as I'm on record as being 100% on board with CC, I'm 100% with David.

To an earlier point of yours Gary, most straight-up film or TV producers, they don't even need XML. They can probably get 'er done with an EDL.

The problem is if you do anything other than cuts. I admittedly haven't edited anything in a while, but most of what I did was "simple." I shot science and nature news magazine stuff for public TV. Fancy was not allowed.

But shooting in the swamps of the Everglades, picture and sound conditions were rarely ideal. I color corrected most shots, using different settings as the light changed, and did all kinds of audio work. Since I was also on the water and shooting from helicopters, a lot of stabilization.

They were subtle, but I loved gradients as both organic transitions and masks to tweak focus and color corrections within frames. I animated all my lower thirds and bugs. I animated maps and stills in every weekly episode.

That was for documentary/news magazine stuff. For commercial work, I shot in resorts that inevitably called for tracked blurs to cover naughty bits, or to obscure the logo for a company who hadn't paid for exposure. (A trick I learned from MTV - you want your logo on my air? Pay for it.)

This was the 90s, in a small market, so clients DEMANDED DVEs out the wazoo. And because said clients were also cheap bastards (all of whom I loved dearly of course), I'd use the same foundation project file to build a dozen or more spots over a couple of years.

THAT's what we're talking about. NOT the cuts.

For the majority of my actual WORK, the place it was backed up was the project file. From the first days of finish-quality NLEs, the emphasis was on doing the kinds of work that you CAN'T do any other way. Additionally, among the ways that NLEs differentiated themselves wasn't just their editing or media management, but also the OTHER stuff -- color corrections, audio, DVE, filters, compositing.

You could say, yeah, you're a moron for doing that in your NLE, but the alternative is typically After Effects...where even a moron like me could have dozens of layers, effects, cameras and such. I think I topped out around 60 for a couple of projects...but I worked with experts who might have hundreds of layers, tied together mathematically because the projects were too complex to handle any other way.

PROJECTS that resided entirely in a project file.

Heck, some of the media didn't exist independently of the project at all. It was generated INSIDE After Effects. Maybe something as simple as a gradient, maybe something as complicated as a mask. Maybe turbulent noise that was on invisible layer being used to drive visible effects, an animated displacement map, or even drive audio. In any case, nothing that could possibly be backed up anywhere else but the project file.

So yeah, we're talking about NLEs in this thread, but an AFTER EFFECTS project file isn't trivial. It's EVERYTHING. It's the ONLY thing.

Besides, I never felt like a moron for using all the tools that were available to me inside the NLE. All that after-shooting, beyond-editing stuff was always backed up.

In the project file.


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David Lawrence
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 10:01:58 pm

Excellent post, Tim. Thank you.

[Tim Wilson] "some of the media didn't exist independently of the project at all. It was generated INSIDE After Effects. Maybe something as simple as a gradient, maybe something as complicated as a mask. Maybe turbulent noise that was on invisible layer being used to drive visible effects, an animated displacement map, or even drive audio. In any case, nothing that could possibly be backed up anywhere else but the project file."

This point is hugely important. A project file not only choreographs media assets, it's also a generator of new assets that may not exist anywhere else.

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again, the project file (in combination with its media assists) is the true digital master. Rendered output is a totally different thing. It's important to know the difference.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 1:58:21 am

[David Lawrence] "This point is hugely important. A project file not only choreographs media assets, it's also a generator of new assets that may not exist anywhere else.

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again, the project file (in combination with its media assists) is the true digital master. Rendered output is a totally different thing. It's important to know the difference."


^This! Thanks, Tim and Dave.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 3:37:02 am

[David Lawrence] "I've said this many times before and I'll say it again, the project file (in combination with its media assists) is the true digital master."

The problem with this is that it requires complete systems frozen in time with software and project files. And then it requires someone to maintain it on a regular basis to make sure it works when the time comes.

For instance, I have projects done in Premiere under Windows that don't open fully on the OSX version because of missing effects. So I had to go back to that good 'ole master render to see what it did and emulate that result. Under your scenario, this would require me to keep a Windows machine with Premiere CS5 stuffed in a closet somewhere so that I could open it exactly as I left it. And that's not even foolproof because hardware can go out at any time.

Sure, perhaps it's viable for a year or two, but who here has access to Video Toaster that they can fire up? Final Cut Pro 3? Premiere Pro CS 1.0?


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David Lawrence
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:01:39 am

[Gary Huff] "The problem with this is that it requires complete systems frozen in time with software and project files. And then it requires someone to maintain it on a regular basis to make sure it works when the time comes."

I can still boot and run programs on my Apple IIe.

Freezing and maintaining a computer system is not a big deal as long as you own the hardware and software.

Jim's example of keeping a Media 100 system around is just one example.

Digital archiving is important to way more people than you may realize. If it's important to you, you freeze the system. No big deal.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Walter Soyka
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:20:53 pm

[David Lawrence] "I've said this many times before and I'll say it again, the project file (in combination with its media assists) is the true digital master."

Agreed!


[David Lawrence] "Rendered output is a totally different thing. It's important to know the difference."

Access to software and true access to your own project data are also different things.

This is why I think that open and documented file formats are more important than perpetual licenses.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:41:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "This is why I think that open and documented file formats are more important than perpetual licenses."

I would agree with this, but it can still only go so far. You're not going to easily translate Premiere's Fast Color Corrector into FCPX's color board. Hell, I had to manually translate some older projects from Premiere for Windows because some effects don't exist.

I do think a simple cross dissolve transition should be a no-brainer to bring across. And, for the rest, perhaps a LUT style system to preserve color correction information?


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:52:06 pm

[Gary Huff] "I would agree with this, but it can still only go so far. You're not going to easily translate Premiere's Fast Color Corrector into FCPX's color board. Hell, I had to manually translate some older projects from Premiere for Windows because some effects don't exist."

That's correct. We can't expect everything to automatically translate, but we should expect graceful degradation and at least a hint about what the effect was doing from a readout of its parameters.

One thing that's interesting about project restoration is that as time goes on, you are less likely to actually use a faithful reproduction of the original, because the state of the art has advanced. There's a certain baseline level of information that we want from old projects, but then we generally want to take over with new tools and do a better job than what we started with. Isn't that the point of restoring or remastering anyway?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:46:39 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Isn't that the point of restoring or remastering anyway?"

Agreed. Even without the better tools, my skill set involving the tools I had at the time evolves too. Of course, a lot of my older material involves a baked in format, as opposed to raw video, so there's only so much one can do.

One of my oldest is a 30 minute "soap opera" shot on a DSR-250 in all its 480i60 glory. Not too much you can do with that.


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Richard Herd
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 13, 2014 at 6:14:05 pm

[Gary Huff] "And, for the rest, perhaps a LUT style system to preserve color correction information?"

Agreed. And the standard already exists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASC_CDL


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David Lawrence
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:18:19 pm

[Walter Soyka] "This is why I think that open and documented file formats are more important than perpetual licenses."

No argument from me here. But for example, getting Adobe to move to an open source file format for After Effects would probably be a challenge.

_______________________
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Walter Soyka
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:46:22 pm

[David Lawrence] "No argument from me here. But for example, getting Adobe to move to an open source file format for After Effects would probably be a challenge."

More of a challenge than getting Adobe to move away from subscription licensing?

With respect to After Effects, there's pt_OpenSesame, a brilliant script from Paul Tuersley which exports and imports human-readable project files (even across different versions of Ae):
http://aescripts.com/pt_opensesame/

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:48:13 pm

[Walter Soyka] "
With respect to After Effects, there's pt_OpenSesame, a brilliant script from Paul Tuersley which exports and imports human-readable project files (even across different versions of Ae):
http://aescripts.com/pt_opensesame/"


That's great! Perhaps everyone who is concerned about an exit strategy should throw Paul $70 bucks each and message him for cross-compatibility with other apps?


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:08:35 pm

[Walter Soyka] "With respect to After Effects, there's pt_OpenSesame, a brilliant script from Paul Tuersley which exports and imports human-readable project files (even across different versions of Ae)"

Walter,

If you have this script, I'd love to see an example of its results ...

(I'm thinking it must orbit somewhere near text for performance art.)

Franz.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:43:06 pm

Here's a project file, with one comp containing one solid, with Fractal Noise applied, keyframed to loop over 30 seconds:

pt_OpenSesame Version:1.02 Export Folder:~/Desktop
Project BitsPerChannel:8 Blending:0 StartFrame:TIMECODE FootageStart:SOURCE Display:TIMECODE DropFrame:1
Folder Name:Solids ID:12 FolderID:0
Footage Section 0
Comp Section 1
Comp Name:Comp 1 ID:1 FolderID:0 Width:1920 Height:1080 Resolution:1 MB:0 FB:0 Angle:180 Phase:-90 Shy:0 PreserveRate:0 PreserveRes:0 Aspect:1 Duration:30.03003003003 FPS:29.9700012207031 BgColor:0;0;0 DropFrame:1
Solid Section 1
Solid Name:Fractal Noise Solid ID:13 FolderID:12 Width:1920 Height:1080 Aspect:1 Color:0.18000000715256;0.18000000715256;0.18000000715256
Layer Section 1
Layer Name:Fractal Noise Solid ID:13 CompID:1 Type:Solid Video:1 AutoOrient:NONE Blend:NORMAL UsedIn:1 startTime:0 inPoint:0 outPoint:30.03003003003
Effect Name:Fractal Noise Layer:1 CompID:1 MatchName:ADBE Fractal Noise
Values Layer:1 CompID:1 PropName:Evolution Property:ADBE Effect Parade|1|ADBE Fractal Noise-0023 Values:0|360 Times:0|30.03003003003 Interp:1;L;L:ITE;0;16.666666667:OTE;11.988;16.666666667|2;L;L:ITE;11.988;16.666666667:OTE;0;16.666666667
Values Layer:1 CompID:1 PropName:Cycle Evolution Property:ADBE Effect Parade|1|ADBE Fractal Noise-0025 Values:1


I promise that this all makes sense if you are familiar with Ae development. If you are not, you can read the After Effects CS6 Scripting Guide [link] and learn everything you'd need to know.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 13, 2014 at 12:39:11 am

That's very impressive, and I'm glad it exists Walter, but the last thing I want to learn is programming and scripting. I shoot and I edit. Once we just paid for the upgrade, it was ours to do with as we needed, with no further payment. We opened our projects and (most of the time) they just worked. Why is that so difficult to bring back other than a bit of greed, excuse me, long term profit enhancement?

I will be interested to see what is announced on 6/18 regarding yearly versioning. CS8 with Perpetual Payment rather than Perpetual License would be my guess.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 13, 2014 at 12:57:21 am

[Jim Wiseman] "That's very impressive, and I'm glad it exists Walter, but the last thing I want to learn is programming and scripting. I shoot and I edit."

Sorry if I was unclear, Jim, but you do not need to know programming or scripting to use pt_OpenSesame. You just run it, and it has two buttons: import and export. It's totally artist-friendly.

The only reason I linked to the scripting guide was that understanding all of the script's human-readable output requires some knowledge of Ae internals. Project files are necessarily complex, and that document gives the background organization and terminology you'd need to know.

David Lawrence started an excellent thread called FCPX Is Now a Universal Logging and Organizing Tool for Any NLE [link] over the other debate forum. His new workflow uses Xto7 to make FCP X a asset management front-end for any NLE that reads FCP7's XML (XMEML).

This workflow is only possible because of open access to project data.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
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David Lawrence
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 13, 2014 at 4:20:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "More of a challenge than getting Adobe to move away from subscription licensing?"

Yes, I think so. They have everything they need in place to pull the trigger anytime they want. All it'll take is a collapse in their stock price. They may be riding high now but this is a long game.

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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:46:55 am

[Tim Wilson] "
Besides, I never felt like a moron for using all the tools that were available to me inside the NLE. All that after-shooting, beyond-editing stuff was always backed up."


That's true, and I'm not saying I do anything different. But that stuff is in the 90s. To counteract what others will make of it, you couldn't pull those old projects back up now, time has made them obsolete without a Herculean effort that probably wouldn't be worth the money. Time has accomplished what fears are expressed here about CC.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:17:46 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:20:41 am

Actually, the effort would not be Herculean, Gary. I just have to walk down the hill to my studio and fire up the Media 100 or the old Avid. They all still work. I even have a new Quadra 950 still in the box as a BU for the Avid. And looking forward using 90's software, the recently released Media 100 v2.1.5 is also on my new 2013 Mac Pro and will also open the old stuff. I'm doing an edit on it this week. It's compatible with the projects from the M100 on the G4 there. I'm also getting into FCP 10.1.1, to be fair. As well as a little PP CS6. Maybe I'm a hoarder or a collector, but reopening the old stuff is not that hard for me. These systems will probably outlast me.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 3:28:48 am

[Jim Wiseman] "I just have to walk down the hill to my studio and fire up the Media 100 or the old Avid."

Not everyone is going to have the space or the desire to keep working models of every iteration of hardware/software that they need. So, in your case, holding on to that old gear that you may or may not ever need to turn on again is something that you feel comfortable doing. That's not everyone.

[Jim Wiseman] "I'm also getting into FCP 10.1.1, to be fair."

What is your exit strategy if you decide that FCPX isn't for you? How will you get any of your edited projects off the system and into, say, Media 100?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:20:42 am

True, I am not everyone. I will go to great lengths to avoid renting software that allows my projects to disappear without payment. Regarding FCP X, I imagine I will be able to keep something together to allow access to those projects, as well wit very little difficulty. Don't plan on moving them. I certainly prefer the Apple model to CC, even with their penchant for secrecy.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:31:56 am

[Jim Wiseman] "I imagine I will be able to keep something together to allow access to those projects"

That doesn't sound very reassuring. This is a major issue, you need a foolproof plan!


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:35:08 am

No, just a plan.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:15:50 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "I will go to great lengths to avoid renting software that allows my projects to disappear without payment."

Your projects don't disappear. That's another use of the language that isn't exact in what is actually going on. Your project file doesn't disappear from your hard drive when you stop paying.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: The Atlantic Council think tank takes a position on cloud service providers.
on Jun 11, 2014 at 9:08:47 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:01:16 am

Again, you cite only the example of video editing project files, just about the simplest and most straightforward project files there are.... and as if they're the only kind of project files that actually matter.

I assure you, there is far, far more to to an After Effects project file than any NLE project file. Reconstructing a complicated AE project file would be a nightmare.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 11, 2014 at 10:29:29 pm

[Gary Huff] "Coppola won't go back to the "project file" for any re-edits. He has a "master render" as it were, that he adjusts on any "NLE" (i.e. flatbed editor)."

Gary,

I'm a bit bewildered by such an unsound conjecture.

The Apocalypse Now re-release was cut by Murch on an Avid and they went back to negative and archival elements. Since we're talking metaphorically here about revisiting a pre-digital edit, I suppose Murch and the various (and complex) tracking systems are effectively "project files". You can be sure if they undertook such a thing again in the future, they would be opening the Avid project files, even if there was some metaphorical "master render".

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_apocalypse_redux/

"… the further we got into it, the more we became convinced that once you open the door to this project, you really are back in film mode. It became obvious that we would need to deliver a reproducible film element [negative] and a new video master would need to be made.”
[…]
"... picture editing began in April 2000. Murch gives special praise to Cullen and to Catherine Craig, Zoetrope's archivist, for keeping track of all of the material."

The sound process was more complicated than the picture (and, if you read the account, that was a complex process). Perhaps most relevant, a statement near the end:

"Kirchberger says that “it was a real thrill, which is an overused phrase, going back to something you worked on 20 years ago. Walter would come into the cutting room with the lined script and it would say, ‘For more information, see Michael K.’ Do I remember what I was supposed to know? Not a chance!”"

The notion that you wouldn't want access to metadata, information about where things are and how they were used, in greatest and most precise detail (ie. a project file) is absurd.

The notion that this is an either/or question (either the project file or the media) is false.

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:44:09 am
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:44:44 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "The Apocalypse Now re-release was cut by Murch on an Avid and they went back to negative and archival elements. Since we're talking metaphorically here about revisiting a pre-digital edit, I suppose Murch and the various (and complex) tracking systems are effectively "project files". You can be sure if they undertook such a thing again in the future, they would be opening the Avid project files, even if there was some metaphorical "master render"."

Not sure where you are being bewildered...unless you are somehow under the impression that the original cut of Apocalypse Now was done on an AVID? There was no project file at all.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "The notion that you wouldn't want access to metadata, information about where things are and how they were used, in greatest and most precise detail (ie. a project file) is absurd."

Yet your own quote negates this. They didn't know what the original information was supposed to be, and yet they still got the job done because it had to be. No AVID 1.0 project that they could still re-open, mysterious notes that lost their meaning, and so on. And yet there is still Apocalypse Now Redux.

Is that too hard for you to pull off yourself?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 1:51:45 am

I knew using a pre Avid example would be confusing, but my main point was the huge amount of footage shot on Apocalypse. The final cut of "Apocalypse Now" was represented on sheets of yellow paper, cut lists, opticals notations, the thoughts in the heads of the director and editor and ultimately the physical printed film itself. I agree with all of the points others have brought up to emphasize the premier importance of the project file. Probably should have used an AE project as an example, but couldn't resist the image of sitting through all of the "data" accumulated to make "Apocalypse Now". I'll take the (revisit able) edited version, thanks. The one which at least now, can be represented by a project file.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 1:53:55 am

[Gary Huff] "There was no project file at all."

Gary,

If you read the article it is clear that the re-master was done in Avid. I don't know how one might confuse that with the edit in the 1970s on film. There is certainly now a project file, and I am sure he is eager to keep it accessible.

I am not sure how you mean that he used a ""master render" as it were, that he adjusts on any "NLE" (i.e. flatbed editor)", as you put it. He used interpositives and originals and various versions of cuts, plus a menagerie of sound sources and versions.

[Gary Huff] "Is that too hard for you to pull off yourself?"

If you're asking if I could recut "Apocalypse Now", I'll just say that I do like a challenge.

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 3:33:25 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "and I am sure he is eager to keep it accessible."

Speculation, but even if he is eager to keep it accessible, are there actual explicit steps being taken to ensure that is so? It's not a forgone conclusion, after all.

What will happen in 10-15 years, especially if AVID goes under. Systems get sold at auction, so on and so forth. Anyone really spending time "future-proofing" that AVID project file? Do you know?

[Franz Bieberkopf] "
I am not sure how you mean that he used a ""master render" as it were, that he adjusts on any "NLE" (i.e. flatbed editor)", as you put it. He used interpositives and originals and various versions of cuts, plus a menagerie of sound sources and versions."


All of which, using digital terms, would be "renders".

[Franz Bieberkopf] "If you're asking if I could recut "Apocalypse Now", I'll just say that I do like a challenge."

No, I'm asking if you could recreate or tweak a project if you did not have access to the explicit AVID bin or Premiere PPROJ or whatever with the raw footage and ProRes/DNxHD/Lossless renders of the completed project. Because that seems to be the issue here.

Like if an author wrote a novel on the iPad version of Word and then cancelled his subscription and was complaining about not having access to his work when he has his words in PDFs, RTF, and printed copies of the book. Sure, it's more of a pain than it would be otherwise, but it's not the end of the world.


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David Lawrence
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 3:48:30 am

[Gary Huff] "Like if an author wrote a novel on the iPad version of Word and then cancelled his subscription and was complaining about not having access to his work when he has his words in PDFs, RTF, and printed copies of the book. Sure, it's more of a pain than it would be otherwise, but it's not the end of the world."

Sorry, wrong again.

It's more like if an author wrote an novel on the on the iPad version of Word, then cancelled his subscription and was complaining because the only way he could edit his novel was by paying Microsoft to let him edit again.

Access to the master is a completely different thing then access to the output of the master.

_______________________
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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:07:42 am

[David Lawrence] "It's more like if an author wrote an novel on the on the iPad version of Word, then cancelled his subscription and was complaining because the only way he could edit his novel was by paying Microsoft to let him edit again.
"


Yes, he could pay a nominal fee to Microsoft in order to use Word again to make edits, or if he's really bent out of shape about it, then he can import or transcribe the text from the "masters" that he has to allow him to make changes.

Or he could have been prepared ahead of time and made sure to export his text in something more easily opened by other apps.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:32:45 am

Text is so much less complicated than the media projects we are discussing here that it is probably not a good analogy. An AE project or an Avid edit can't really be described as just text. It has to be in a very specific software context, i.e., the project file.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:01:31 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Text is so much less complicated than the media projects we are discussing here that it is probably not a good analogy."

I agree, it's just the simplest to describe.


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David Lawrence
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:39:51 am

[Gary Huff] "Or he could have been prepared ahead of time and made sure to export his text in something more easily opened by other apps."

Nope.

We're not talking about text, we're talking about proprietary project files that can only be opened in their native applications.

It's important to understand the difference.

Can we please move on to a real debate?

_______________________
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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:02:33 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:16:33 pm

[David Lawrence] "Can we please move on to a real debate?"

Like about how Narayen is actually the Antichrist?

I'm not sure about what you mean by a "real debate". This is what Adobe is going to do for the foreseeable future, and so you're either going to switch over to Lightworks and Pixelmator, or you're going to sit on CS6 or below.

I would think discussion about whether or not you are truly locked into an NLE platform via the project file would be a fine topic for a debate, but I guess you don't agree?


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David Lawrence
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:12:55 pm

[Gary Huff] "I would think discussion about whether or not you are truly locked into an NLE platform via the project file would be a fine topic for a debate, but I guess you don't agree?"

That's exactly what I've been talking about from the very beginning of this debate.

_______________________
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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 1:10:42 pm

[Gary Huff] "... I'm asking if you could recreate or tweak a project if you did not have access to the explicit AVID bin or Premiere PPROJ or whatever ... Because that seems to be the issue here."


Gary,

It is possible to some degree to "recreate" a cut from a final master. Depending on the complexity of a project this may take much work - if you're beginning with hundreds of hours of footage, it may mean beginning by relogging and reorganizing all footage first; sound presents even more of challenge, and may actually be impossible to reconstruct from a guide. So, varying degrees ...

I'm not sure why you would prefer such a daunting task to simply opening an existing project that contains all this work - already done.

I wouldn't agree with your definition of the issue - I don't think this is simply about recreating a cut. A project contains more than instructions for the "final cut" (if, in fact, the project was designed to produce such a single end). A project also contains all of the organization and to some degree embodies the process of an edit - various stages along the way.

The issue is access to all of that information and organization (ie. work).

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:14:13 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "
I'm not sure why you would prefer such a daunting task to simply opening an existing project that contains all this work - already done."


I don't...what I am saying is that the original edit of Apocalypse Now, with its sound and color timing and everything else that was involved with it, did not exist as a "project file", meaning that it had to be completely built from the ground up within AVID.

As another example, the Blu-ray release of Star Trek: The Next Generation. That show was edited on video, with an obsolete system, meaning that for Blu-raym they had to scan the raw 35mm negatives and re-create each show's original edit from the ground up (more than likely in AVID) using the "master", i.e. a copy of the original episode, as a guide (along with, I'm sure, EDLs, production notes and the like). The X-Files is also in the process of getting the same treatment.

Now, of course from here on out, I am sure they would like to maintain access to that project file, but the point is they were able to recreate an entire season of hour-long episodes simply from the raw materials, notes, and the master. It's doable. And claiming that, if you were really bent out of shape about a $30 charge for a month of Premiere to go edit a project from five years ago, that you can redo the edit in Lightworks if you so choose.

I'm not saying it's easy, I would think the easy route would be paying the $30, but that's just me. Some people apparently would cut off their right arm than pay out the nose for that.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:37:09 pm

[Gary Huff] "I'm not saying it's easy, I would think the easy route would be paying the $30, but that's just me."

Gary,

Again, I don't think the issue is about depriving you of your preferred 30.00 option.

What you don't state above is that if they build these projects in Avid (which they likely have), they don't have to pay rental to maintain access to the project file.

Unless they want to.

Further, as I stated above, and I'll restate here, access to the project file is based on more than a need for "final version" recreation (which seem to be your examples). Still further, when dealing with sound work, such reconstruction may move from the "easy/hard" spectrum into "impossible".

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:11:24 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:14:36 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "What you don't state above is that if they build these projects in Avid (which they likely have), they don't have to pay rental to maintain access to the project file. Unless they want to."

But they have to pay something. Someone has to maintain this if they want it up and working a decade down the line when they need it, or keep the project file updated and current with AVID if it still exists, or transfer it to another system if AVID goes under. In today's digital realm, you can't just stick it on the shelf for 10-20 years and expect to come back to it and boot it right up.

So there is money involved if it's done properly. Otherwise, perhaps when it comes time for the 4K remaster, they'll have to do the whole process over again, sans the 4K scan of course.

Here's another ancedote. Robert Wise was allowed to craft a Director's Cut of Star Trek The Motion Picture, all done in Standard Definition at the time for the DVD release. All of that work cannot be upgraded to Blu-ray or 4K because it was done in SD, probably on a very old AVID system, like Media Composer XL 8.0 or something. So what is the benefit of the project file in this instance?


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:26:20 pm

[Gary Huff] "Someone has to maintain this if they want it up and working a decade down the line when they need it, or keep the project file updated and current with AVID if it still exists, or transfer it to another system if AVID goes under. In today's digital realm, you can't just stick it on the shelf for 10-20 years and expect to come back to it and boot it right up."

Gary,

I agree. As I have expressed in other posts, it is a question of control - who is in control of making those decisions and how. Rental software shifts control in ways that some people seem reticent to acknowledge.

[Gary Huff] "So what is the benefit of the project file in this instance?"

Well I can see obvious benefit. If I were to take on such a task, my first agenda would be to get the old project - it provides the clearest map of what was done, and would inform and simplify any process of translating those decisions using new (better quality) media.

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:39:47 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Well I can see obvious benefit. If I were to take on such a task, my first agenda would be to get the old project - it provides the clearest map of what was done, and would inform and simplify any process of translating those decisions using new (better quality) media."

So if the old project was from, say, Video Toaster, how would that help you?

Or Media Composer circa 1999. If someone dumped an old FireWire hard drive in your lap with a Media Composer XL 8.0 project in it, would you be able to open it and view the contents?


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:50:51 pm

[Gary Huff] "So if the old project was from, say, Video Toaster, how would that help you? Or Media Composer circa 1999. If someone dumped an old FireWire hard drive in your lap with a Media Composer XL 8.0 project in it, would you be able to open it and view the contents?"

Gary,

Well, speaking as someone who still uses firewire drives, that particular shadow of obsolescence doesn't shake me. (Yet.)

As for Video Toaster - I would immediately start researching what info could be pulled from such a project (EDL?). Pulling as much information from such a project would be a priority for research.

I have one production that was started on Avid circa 1997 - we did do a partial update to some incarnation of Avid Media Composer circa 2004 (or so, can't remember), but as far as I know both incarnations still exist.

I am currently preparing a presentation on editing process that I will do this month - I've been looking at an old project from 2008, FCP6. I hooked up the firewire drive, launched the project. FCP prompted me to update the project format. I resaved and I had all my work from 6 years ago sitting in front of me.

I did not have to pay Apple or Adobe or anyone else a special fee for such privilege.

I call it "using my studio".


Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:53:16 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Well, speaking as someone who still uses firewire drives, that particular shadow of obsolescence doesn't shake me. (Yet.)"

Same here. Have the TB to FW800 adapter.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "
As for Video Toaster - I would immediately start researching what info could be pulled from such a project (EDL?). Pulling as much information from such a project would be a priority for research."


But you just have the project file. You need a way to open it, which means a working version of Video Toaster, unless there was the (unlikely) scenario of a third party utility that could create an EDL from the project file.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I am currently preparing a presentation on editing process that I will do this month - I've been looking at an old project from 2008, FCP6. I hooked up the firewire drive, launched the project. FCP prompted me to update the project format. I resaved and I had all my work from 6 years ago sitting in front of me."

Thankfully you had a copy of FCP7 (I assume) to do that. Someone newer to the game might have started once FCP7 was on its way out. Perhaps their first Mac was a Retina Pro running Mountain Lion. Eventually perhaps you won't have the ability to even run FCP7 without freezing a complete system and storing it somewhere, making sure, of course, that you boot it up from time to time, otherwise it might crap out on you from just sitting there.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Revisiting the Apocalypse
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:00:33 pm

[Gary Huff] "But you just have the project file. You need a way to open it, which means a working version of Video Toaster ..."

Thankfully this problem isn't further complicated by questions of rental.

[Gary Huff] "Eventually perhaps you won't have the ability to even run FCP7 without freezing a complete system and storing it somewhere, ..."

Again, this problem is not solved with rental - it is just complicated by it.

The question of freezing and maintaining a system is within my scope of control (to a certain extent). One can even argue that there is a business model in that.

You seem to be holding absolute future-proofing as a standard - I don't have such a standard, and I don't think anyone in the forum imagines that forever is possible. On the other hand, I've given you to real-world examples of long term use cases.

Franz.


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