FORUMS: list search recent posts

Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?

COW Forums : Adobe Creative Cloud Debate

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Jim Wiseman
Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 23, 2014 at 12:53:23 am

Previous thread of much greater interest:

"[David Lawrence] "The current CC licensing model is the antithesis of personal computing."

[Walter Soyka] David, I'd like to highlight this comment. I find it very thought-provoking.

This could start the sort of conversation I had hoped could grow out of this forum, much like all the interesting conversations that came out of the FCPX or Not forum. More to come on this from me in the next couple days after I've had a chance to give it a good think. In the meantime, I hope some others may join the conversation."

Any more thoughts on this subject?

Or do we want to hear more about XML?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 23, 2014 at 1:16:46 am

Are we on our way back to dumb terminals with credit cards as gate-keepers?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 23, 2014 at 2:45:51 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Any more thoughts on this subject? "

Jim, thank you for starting this thread. This is a topic I feel strongly about and I look forward to Walter's thoughts, as well as everyone else's. I will definitely be chiming in as well. This is the kind of debate I enjoy the most here on the COW.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index


Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 23, 2014 at 2:51:40 am

Onward and upward!

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 23, 2014 at 4:52:08 pm

Well, so far we have Jeremy saying it is all about money, and Gary countering that it is more about process. I fear a return to the age of dumb terminals controlled by Big Brother via credit cards, a bit of both I suppose. David suggested something similar. What do you all think? Isn't this the meat of the whole debate?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 23, 2014 at 5:59:42 pm

[Jim Wiseman]: "... I fear a return to the age of dumb terminals controlled by Big Brother via credit cards... Isn't this the meat of the whole debate?"

I'm of the opinion that before the scenario above could even take place, the big issue is security: security of credit cards, user identities, and the files they use & create.

Right now NO ONE has a good handle on security. If they did, people would feel a lot better about shopping at Target (among others) and the US of A wouldn't have arrest warrants out on a bunch of Chinese generals for hacking. Compared to the companies that got hacked, Adobe is much smaller, and probably a LOT more porous than they are.

Yet another reason not to go down the Creative Cloud rabbit hole right now.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index


Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 24, 2014 at 1:55:41 am

adobe is the right kind of target to attack, for socially concience hackers one that would help them earn fame. i am sure that somewhere in the world they are diligently working to this end. we must all be aware. the bigger they are the bigger wave they make. They work at this as a cause not a job, they have the time talent and genius. I am not endorsing this type of expression but its bound to come sooner or later. the threat of metering our access to creative and productive resources is ever increasing. making cc halt too a grind is an open target.

ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 24, 2014 at 8:16:18 am

[Ricardo Marty] "adobe is the right kind of target to attack, for socially concience hackers one that would help them earn fame"

I don't think Adobe's crimes against humanity rank very high on the hacktivist hit list. Oppressive government regimes, financial institutions responsible for economic collapse... hell, even Comcast is a significantly more hated company than Adobe.

But given the fact that everyone gets hacked (Apple and eBay got hacked in the past few days) I'm sure you'll get your wish eventually.


Return to posts index

David Mathis
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 23, 2014 at 2:16:46 pm

I agree about the CC licensing model analogy, completely! There is Avid who offers both subscription and the option to buy. Same thing with Red Giant Universe, rent or lifetime membership. There is no complicated price structure. They come out a winner and so does their customer base. Hope they continue with this business model and not go subscription only. I have always admired Red Giant, reasonable price, great products and great customer support. Avid is very good, too.

In order for me to subscribe to anything, there must be a real incentive and the ability to have a buyout option.


Return to posts index


Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 23, 2014 at 5:56:21 pm

On a related note, I was reading an article today that talked about how digital music sales are leveling off and streaming music services (Pandora, Spotify, etc.,) is the new growth sector when it comes to making money in the music business. Of course I've also been reading about how music streaming services are struggling to make a profit, and artists make barely anything from them, so I'm not exactly sure how this is all going to pan out.

[David Mathis] "There is no complicated price structure."

I would disagree that Avid's price structure is less complicated than Adobe's.

In a nut shell, if you subscribe to Avid it's $600/yr (for the annual plan) and you get MC, Boris Continuum Complete Lite and Sorenson Squeeze Lite, and NewBlue Titler Pro 2 (not exactly on par with the Master Collection and at least Adobe throws in some cloud storage and a few other goodies).

If you pay for a perpetual license to MC it will be $1299 and all you get is MC and NewBlue Titler Pro 2. If you want Boris it's now part of the Symphony Option upgrade which is $749. If you want Sorenson it's now part of the Production Pack which is$599. Once you have the perpetual license you can either pay $299/yr for an Avid Support plan (which gets you Avid updates/upgrades for as long as you pay the $299/yr fee) or you can pay $1299 again when you decide to upgrade.

Basically Avid has done away with the upgrade discount. It's either pay the $299 annual fee or pay full price every time a new version comes out.

If you already own MC you have until the end of 2014 to get on the $299 annual plan.

This is just for single license users, if you are in need of volume licensing then there's other options.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 24, 2014 at 11:30:51 am

What does "personal computing" mean to you?

What if personal computing was just a step on the road toward pervasive computing?

If personal computing means self-sufficiency to you, do you still find that achievable in our increasingly networked world? Put another way, is a personal computer with no Internet or other network connectivity appealing or even relevant?

Isn't the bicycle for the mind more interesting with other cyclists around and more places to ride than your own driveway?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 24, 2014 at 1:38:56 pm

internet does not necesarally make you more creative or productive and i have as much fun cycling alone as with a group. socialized creativity can be productive but its just another way to do things. granted that filmwork has always benefited from outsourcing and other collaborative inputs. but you having all the power sitting on your desk to do what ever you can is minboggling.

creativty does not always flow, sometime you sit hours or days looking for it and when you have to pay a landlord to makeit happed and then pay again to alter it, it use to be that artist and creators had pens,typewriters,canvas
and all their instruments on hand it, they owened them now its beggining to change. you either have to pay to have it available all the time or just when you think you need it.

i understand that most here have be on the grind everyday but many of us dont.
you might say that i am the perfect candidate for cc but paying and feeling the pressure to produce is not always compatible.

ricardo marty


Return to posts index


Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 24, 2014 at 4:49:23 pm

[Walter Soyka] "If personal computing means self-sufficiency to you, do you still find that achievable in our increasingly networked world? Put another way, is a personal computer with no Internet or other network connectivity appealing or even relevant?"

Maybe I'm getting the analogy wrong, but Adobe's current version of SaaS doesn't bring anything new to the table compared to their old business model (it's still just desktop apps). So while I agree that an Internet connection helps the personal computing experience reach new breadths and depths an Internet connection for my Adobe apps currently does not. And this is one of my big complaints about CC is that is doesn't offer anything unique or compelling over a normal desktop app experience. How about a seamlessly integrated, fully featured review and approval service? How about cloud computing to help cut down complex render times?


[Ricardo Marty] ", it use to be that artist and creators had pens,typewriters,canvas
and all their instruments on hand it, they owened them now its beggining to change."


I don't think this is accurate for the TV/film industry. It's only been in the last 15 years or so that 'professional quality' editing hardware and software has been inexpensive enough for ownership to be common (especially among smaller shops and individual freelancers). Individuals rarely owned Avid Meridien systems or had linear edit suites in their home the same way they own copies of NLEs today. DPs didn't own their own 35mm film cameras (Panavision didn't even sell their cameras, only rented them). Gaffers didn't have personal warehouses full of lights. Heck, even musicians, who probably did own their own instruments, had to rent studio time (including recording equipment) and pay for an engineer if they wanted to make a record (and if they wanted to change something after the fact they would have to go back and rent more studio time).

Apple had their hand in many 'desktop revolutions' (desktop publishing, audio mixing, video editing, DVD authoring, color grading) and prior to that it typically cost a lot of money to hire specialists with specialized gear to do these tasks.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 26, 2014 at 3:34:40 pm

Andrew & Aindreas, I am not even talking about Creative Cloud yet. I am just talking about what personal computing means, so we can discuss whether we still really have this today or if we are now in some other phase. The term and the concept of personal computing predates today's enormous connectivity, so I'm trying to level-set. Can CC be a threat to personal computing if classically-defined "personal computing" is already history?

Chris, when I speak about pervasive computing, I was speaking about this concept (the naming for which still seems to be in flux):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubiquitous_computing

Chris and Jim, if personal computing is about control, I think that peaked in the late 1980s, when computers still came with programming manuals in the box and after PC-compatibles were readily available, but before Microsoft got big and bad in the 1990s. Since then, I think we've seen a marked reduction in the control we have over the devices we own -- though over that same time, access to computing has increased geometrically.

In 1987, after about a decade of PC revolution, only 15% of American households had a computer. In 2011, that figure was 75%. Today, two-thirds of Americans carry a computer in their pocket (smartphone).

Jim, I'd point out that time-sharing was not evil. Time-sharing was good! Prior to time-sharing, the only people who had access to a computer were the ones who could afford the room-sized installations. Time-sharing was a way to increase access when ownership was unaffordable. The PC revolution extended that access further. Though the PC revolution may have been about control for the posters here, what if it was really an economic event about access in the general case?

Bill, I am not suggesting that bike race competitors must rent their bikes -- but rather pointing out that any individual competitor cannot own the 2200 linear miles or his co-competitors that make the race interesting. The Tour de France wouldn't be very compelling if it were 23 days on a stationary bike alone in your basement.

I'm asking if personal computing was a waypoint, not an endpoint. There seems to be some consensus in this thread that personal computing is about self-sufficiency or ownership and control. What has that really meant since America OnLine stuffed floppy disks into every mailbox in the US? What does that mean today for you Apple users, with your hardware vendor as your software gatekeeper?

When I first got into computing, it was cool that I had a computer. Computing was novel and the journey was its own reward. Today, in the real world, I am not sure what good it would to me to own a computer if I didn't also have Internet, e-mail, Dropbox, etc. Jim, you have used the term "dumb terminal." I think I'd have a "dumb workstation" if I couldn't connect it to things I can never own. A computer without connectivity today is an appliance -- certainly useful, but single-purpose. (And ironically, even appliances are becoming connected now.)

Still leaving Creative Cloud out of the discussion, my whole concept of computing is changing. It has become something I can't put in a box, wrap my arms around, entirely own, or control. Is that scary? Sure, change is scary. But it's also enabling enormous innovation and progress.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 6:35:06 pm

Aindreas, you continue to misconstrue NASDAQ ADBE, now at $65/share, over and over. The correct way to construe the recent hiccup and Kevin's posts is (not plural here but as a single entity) as they faced a real problem and "scrummed the burndown" same day. Sounds like a good place to invest as (again an "as," 'cause I can't escape simile) tech growth mid cap sector. It really should not be a surprise that renting tools to workers is massively profitable.


Return to posts index


Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 6:43:23 pm
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on May 27, 2014 at 6:47:45 pm

Actually adobes stock increase is based on wisfull thinking. its a bubble in the making.

TheStreetRatings.com Analysis:

TheStreet Quant Ratings rates Adobe Systems as a hold. The company's strengths can be seen in multiple areas, such as its largely solid financial position with reasonable debt levels by most measures, expanding profit margins and solid stock price performance. However, as a counter to these strengths, we also find weaknesses including deteriorating net income, disappointing return on equity and weak operating cash flow


ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 7:02:21 pm

When was that posted?
Thanks!


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 7:53:34 pm

posted today

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=ADBE



ricardo marty


Return to posts index


David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 9:11:18 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "posted today"

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12721913/1/adobe-systems-adbe-showing-signs-...

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 7:59:43 pm

[Richard Herd] " It really should not be a surprise that renting tools to workers is massively profitable."

Ultimately that may come to pass, but not yet. Am I missing something?:



Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 8:06:44 pm

adobe has been hijacked by wallstreet. the purpose is to fatten it up
them kill it, cut it into pieces and give it away.

ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 9:10:10 pm

Actuall what i mant was sell the pieces and keep only what profitable. imop its the marketing cloud

ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 10:35:02 pm

It gets more complicated than that. In the US, oil companies for example create Master Limited Partnerships, where the most profitable elements of the refining business are bundled into limited partnerships, and the remaining pieces continue to be traded on the NYSE.

I cannot find an instance (yet) where tech stocks are able to create MLPs, but I think your predictions are nearly correct. They won't kill adobe, as much as bundle it into MLPs.

Getting the opportunity to join an MLP is like a club.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 10:52:39 pm

only if it lives up to expectations which i truly doubt.

ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 11:52:26 pm

But it already has on many occasions, for some stock holders. Here I'm thinking of the posts in this forum where people claim "gloom and doom for adobe because the CEO and other senior execs are selling their stocks which means they know it's all a lie."


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 10:31:34 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "adobe has been hijacked by wallstreet. the purpose is to fatten it up"

Bingo.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 11:01:48 pm

I've been saying this for a while, but - to paraphrase new labour Peter Mandelson -

I am intensely relaxed about Adobe corporate being torn apart - with sinews popping - to the four winds by market forces.

It's a win win sure. Most of the software is at steady state maturity, their web play is dead in the water, if finance group think kills the corporate shell 1% board feasting on the share option wall street sell, we possibly get back the individualised software components that might actually flourish again in other hands.

It worked in other circumstances, it just requires ripping the head clean off Adobe.

You would near actually beg the company to finally die.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 11:53:57 pm
Last Edited By Richard Herd on May 27, 2014 at 11:55:17 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "we possibly get back the individualised software components that might actually flourish again in other hands"

Well. That's not what I'm sayin' at all. I'm predicting MLPs for the tech sector, modeled after big oil. That is, when/if NASDAQ: ADBE sells anything to anyone, they will sell the most profitable sectors to themselves!


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 12:31:17 am

my god I understand nothing.

look - i just want the software landscape of my twenties, and I am going to sit here screaming until it happens.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 1:06:03 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "look - i just want the software landscape of my twenties, and I am going to sit here screaming until it happens."


The software landscape of your twenties? You mean DOS? ;-)


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?z
on May 28, 2014 at 12:40:53 am
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on May 28, 2014 at 12:47:57 am

at this moment adobes big money maker is the marketing cloud not the creative cloud. the marketing cloud is all abouta data mining, imop this is the crown jewles that wall st. seeks. data is a big money maker.

of coure if cc were a real cloud solution then itwould also be a treasure
chest of data they would know more about the culture. cc is not there yet
unless they know something we dont.


ricardo marty


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 11:02:41 pm

[Richard Herd] "[Ricardo Marty] "adobe has been hijacked by wallstreet. the purpose is to fatten it up"

Bingo."


Agreed.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 1:38:25 am

[Ricardo Marty] "adobe has been hijacked by wallstreet. the purpose is to fatten it up
them kill it, cut it into pieces and give it away."


Now the conversation has gotten interesting. When it comes to Wall Street strategy and motivations, personally, I'm in the dark. Simply unqualified. That's me.

Is this really a possibility? That could be good. That could be really bad.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 1:56:01 am

since deregulation groups of investors called raiders would buy up companies they felt had good products or patents and were under valued and would canabalize them then sell the remains for scrap.

now they are more savy they sell themselves into the company and convince the principals of a. great deal and basically do the same. sometimes they buy. many commpanies and make them into comodaties. many good companies and thousands of jobs have been lost to these scavengers.



ricardo martyjn


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 2:14:05 am

[Ricardo Marty] "since deregulation groups of investors called raiders would buy up companies they felt had good products or patents and were under valued and would canabalize them then sell the remains for scrap."

So if all this speculation applies, the remaining question is whether Adobe creative applications are "scrap" or not. Wow.

I've heard before that creative software is simply not making Adobe all that much money. Hard to imagine, because I've always believed they could raise the upgrade price and then insist on participation in every major upgrade to keep the upgrade discount, and most of us professionals would still upgrade. I dont understand how this cant make money. Maybe too many VP's ....

But assuming this is correct, maybe somebody else could do a better job with this whole mess. Interesting speculation.


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 3:39:03 pm

Well, I wouldn't exactly call Adobe's creative applications "scrap", but it rings true from my limited perspective.

I looked for a new job for a long time in my small city, and with only three exceptions I never saw a posting or made a contact where knowledge of video/audio editing applications or effects/compositing applications were required along with writing skills. Ah, but web marketing metrics? Web analytics? Web development? Social media management? SEO? Boatloads of 'em.

Someone has to use that kind of software, so it makes sense to me that Adobe's Marketing Cloud would be the juicier plum.

Besides, the word "CLOUD" doesn't raise suspicions or bring out cynics among the people who who use such software; those jobs were born in the cloud. Contrast that with people who set up editing and effects boutiques ten years ago, purchasing gigabytes and terabytes of their on-site storage, and for whom the internet was a handy way to communicate and exchange files, and less of a way of life.

So, yeah, I can see which part of Adobe is more attractive to an investor.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 4:07:09 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "adobe has been hijacked by wallstreet. the purpose is to fatten it up them kill it, cut it into pieces and give it away. "

So I guess we can't talk about anything here without it devolving into some kind of Adobe conspiracy theory? Pity. I thought the conversation about computing had some potential.

I'm not sure I can agree with your analysis that this is some way to "fatten up," but I guess you see what you look for. Quite the opposite -- perpetual license sales gave huge short-term revenue boosts, while subscription delivers big revenue over time. CC may effectively be a price increase, but it's pretty much the opposite of the typical cash grab (or expense slash) meant to make a business look artificially attractive.

With perpetual licenses, Adobe could book almost $3000 in a single quarter for one new customer. With Creative Cloud, they can book $150 in that same quarter. It will take 18 quarters before they book the revenue that a single new Master Suite sale would have earned them, or 12 quarters for Production Premium.

Are you open to the possibility that Adobe thinks they can make their customers (not you, you're a prospect!) and investors happy at the same time? Is that an unreasonable goal?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 5:31:44 pm
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on May 28, 2014 at 5:43:07 pm

well how do you explain that wall st says adobe stock is a buy while acknowlegeing that its losing money and profitability. this imop is nothing but a wall st venture to suck up as much money as they can. in there minds if this could work they will be made. maybe but i think not. the whole concept is very fragil andl any variable can put a wrench in the machine. however it would be less fragil if it offered other options but for some reason the they will not give in, in there minds the idea of perpetual income is a wall st. perpetual wet dream



ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 5:59:45 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "well how do you explain that wall st says adobe stock is a buy while acknowlegeing that its losing money and profitability."

I have explained it. I think that Adobe has undertaken a risky but potentially rewarding strategy that they believe will benefit both their customers and their investors in the long run. (Note that this is risky on the investment side, following the common criticism that the stock market only rewards short-term gains, as well as the customer side.)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:03:27 pm

[Walter Soyka] "risky but potentially rewarding strategy"

Where is the risk? This is a real question. Or maybe link to a previous answer. Thanks!


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:09:32 pm

[Richard Herd] "Where is the risk? This is a real question. Or maybe link to a previous answer. Thanks!"

CC was risky for Adobe in at least two ways. Investors could get spooked by the sharp initial fall-off in revenue (going from big PL sales to little but ongoing subscription fees), and customers could choose not to go along with subscription-only.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 5:55:32 pm

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's business as usual. It's not devolving the discussion. It's enlightening those who are unaware of the giant income discrepancy between the top few and the many below. Price point is the correct discussion: price of the software, price of the stock.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:11:49 pm

[Richard Herd] "It's not a conspiracy theory. It's business as usual. It's not devolving the discussion. It's enlightening those who are unaware of the giant income discrepancy between the top few and the many below. Price point is the correct discussion: price of the software, price of the stock."

Ok.

[Ricardo Marty] "adobe has been hijacked by wallstreet. the purpose is to fatten it up them kill it, cut it into pieces and give it away."

Wikipedia:
A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation.

I think that this is quite literally a conspiracy theory.

Whether this devolves the discussion is of course a matter of opinion, but it seems to have pretty clearly derailed an otherwise interesting discussion on the nature of personal computing. I had personally hoped for a more focused discussion around the interesting issue that David raised, but if this is the line of discussion that everyone else prefers, so be it.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:20:20 pm

Still with you Walter, though the stock implications are important, I would like your thoughts (and David L's) on what it means for the model of computing we knew before CC. If anything. Is it just a new, more in your face form of DRM? Sure feels like it.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:41:05 pm

[Jim Wiseman] " I would like your thoughts (and David L's) on what it means for the model of computing we knew before CC. If anything. Is it just a new, more in your face form of DRM? Sure feels like it."

My thinking is that the model of computing we knew has been changing a lot over the last decade, independently of CS/CC.

If you accept the proposition that connectivity adds an element that was not present in the 1980s conception of personal computing, than it raises the question of how our tools can exploit connectivity.

I'd agree with you that today, CC looks a lot like CS with different DRM. (Though I maintain the move to subscription has changed Adobe's focus on what kinds of features to develop, and that this is a real benefit for everyday users.)

I think it will be some time before we can really answer this question -- seeing how the service layer of CC develops. Although the results may not be here today, I think that changing the marketing, development and sales approaches is a valid response to our changing expectations around computing. (Of course, I also understand that not everyone will agree with this change.)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:57:19 pm

Thanks, Walter. This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for. Among other things, the stock market is primarily Adobe's and their stockholders side of this, and it very important for us to try to understand it. How it affects us is, to my mind, our major concern.

I just keep hoping for a way that a permanent license could be factored into the brew at some point.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 7:14:34 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Among other things, the stock market is primarily Adobe's and their stockholders side of this, and it very important for us to try to understand it. How it affects us is, to my mind, our major concern."

I agree that it's important to understand all the stakeholders, not just ourselves.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I think that the best way to deliver shareholder value is to have lots of happy customers who want to give you their money. Understanding that it leaves some money on the table because some prospects like you will not join, I think CC can deliver on that.

I don't see how CC (a long-term strategy) is a plan to quickly pump up the stock price at the expense of customers.

Many here is quick to point out that CC customers are tied to Adobe -- but that works both ways, and Adobe is now tied to their CC customers, too. If Adobe generally upsets their customers and the subscriber base shrinks, ADBE will earn itself a sell recommendation. Shareholder opinion can provide additional pressure to keep customers happy.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 10:31:23 pm
Last Edited By Richard Herd on May 29, 2014 at 10:38:39 pm

Computing feels the same as it did when I learned to use a TRS-80 (1983/84 while listening to Van Halen on my Sony Walkman). I type on a keyboard to access my files and applications. Then the mouse, on my Apple IIe. After that I was a Windows dude till 2003 when I started using FCP, and just when OSX started take off. My college roommate and I built a home network that was pretty cool (circa 1994), but mostly useless, cuz we didn't actually collaborate, but we did store our papers on the cloud ecst.csuchico.edu -- which doesn't exist anymore -- and printed at school. I've been computing "like this" for quite awhile it feels.

There has always been a cost to computing, buying apps for example, and storage, and I don't see CC changing any of that. I think both Aindreas and Walter S are correct. CC is revolutionary because of its (first) DRM and (second) it's development. The obsolescence software disks and packaging has always kind-of bugged me. I'm glad that appears to be gone. Now, what do I with old computers? Really, I think that's a bummer.

My wife has been recording interviews for the past 2 two years as part of her PhD research in rhetoric and composition. We bought for her use an Apple Air and she uses Garage Band to record all the interviews. That appears to be a big change in computing. Off-the-shelf computer has a built in DAW. That's a big deal, from the point of view of what we take for granted. Recall, word processing totally revolutionized typing. Camera phones, built-in NLEs and built-in DAWs are similarly revolutionizing.

In just asking a few questions on the Adobe Premiere forum, I've compiled a list of features CS6 does NOT have but CC does. For example, in CS6 we cannot slip edit compound clips. I would be in favor of an Adobe-type OS, BUT! and this is a big one! I recall when Windows 3 came out, it sat on top of DOS and was very clunky. So I am also skeptical that an Adobe OS (like Bridge) is faster or more utilitarian than the OSx/Win itself.

a bit of tangent, alas I tried.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:25:53 pm

i dont think has derailed the discussion on the contrary cc is is ending the personal computer mainly because thousands of costumers and stockbrokers are having an input into how we do our work. they are trying to put a meter on our productivity and creativity not to mention the data mining capabilities.

Yes this indeed is part of the doscusion.

Ricardo Marty


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:34:45 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on May 28, 2014 at 6:36:50 pm

The stock market certainly is part of the discussion. I just don't want to lose sight of how it affects us, the creatives. The stock price is certainly THE discussion in Mr. Narayen's office. The largest reason this model was invented in my opinion, more profit through whatever manipulations, short term stock price or long term corporate profitability, take your choice based on the amount of your paranoia.

But what does it mean to people who use the applications?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:48:04 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "i dont think has derailed the discussion on the contrary cc is is ending the personal computer mainly because thousands of costumers and stockbrokers are having an input into how we do our work. they are trying to put a meter on our productivity and creativity not to mention the data mining capabilities. Yes this indeed is part of the doscusion."

All four of the A companies are publicly traded (although Avid is currently delisted). Investors are not unique to Adobe or CC.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 7:54:43 pm

no cc is unique and is oferring to the stockmarket a unique product that has affected thousands of users an potentialy change the way our businesses are run. so yes cc has changed thing and the motor running this is wall st. in there ever quest for money.


ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:34:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Wikipedia:
A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation."


I am not claiming it is secret. I don't feel that Ricardo is either. I am lucky to live in an open government and the regulations and disclosures are published. Robert Reich has been clear that he feels the change in executive compensation to stock options was an unintended consequence of his labor policy and that is the world we live in. I would like to change that, if I could, a bit of cap on executive compensation and real working wage, here in the US, because it amounts to capital flowing in one direction.

I am not claiming there is a cover up.

I am not claiming it is illegal.

In fact, there is nothing in the wiki that corresponds to anything I have been posting, and none of my comments ought to be construed as such; that would be my failure to communicate.

The fact is (that) renting tools to workers is profitable, which is what I see the CC as. Perhaps it isn't: A former student of mine can afford Photoshop CC and is making some amazing art. I think that's good. The extent to which it is good for him and good for investors is a broader social good. The evil part is the extent to which workers are tied to the rent-the-tools model. And let me be realistic too, it's not like this is back breaking and dangerous work. I'm sitting in an air conditioned office, with two mongo-sized monitors staring back at me, posting here, when I should be editing some audio. So the human misery isn't equivalent (as you pointed out on a few occasions) to mining, construction, high-voltage, etc.

And now... I must close the internet for some time.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:46:31 pm

Richard, I don't think that you and Ricardo are making the same point at all. Unless I'm reading him wrong -- and my apologies if I am -- his suggestions point to secret motives (contrary to stated motives) and ultimately harm to end users.

I actually agree with many of your points.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 9:32:46 pm

I know - but there is a bit of a thing about proposing an area of discussion and then getting possibly sniffy about some of the tangents.

everyone has a point of view - engage with them at your leisure - I don't think there's too much point overtly painting them as not worth your time.

you're a very cool guy to debate walter, but in the end it's of a forum of equal voices. Ricardo carries the exact same weight as you, me or anyone.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 9:54:42 pm

I think the last couple of days have had valid points from everyone. Been waiting to hear from you Aindreas! Love to hear everyone's cost/benefit analysis of the current situation. Easier to put commerce in those terms than art, but I think we have enough brain power here. Pretend you could tell Adobe how to handle this from your POV. How can they satisfy your needs? You are the customer...

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 9:38:48 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "How can they satisfy your needs? You are the customer"

My struggles have nothing to do with Adobe. Rather, I work for a department that has fancy accountants. I've submitted requests for capital, and there it is: It isn't capital. It's monthly rent. We are not talking about a few licenses either, but easily about 4 dozen.

But since your question was about Adobe, I would like to see pricing structure that allows maintenance included in the rental price, an added value.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 10:16:56 pm

Ricardo & Aindreas, I apologize. My intention was not to try to silence anyone, just to not lose the thread on personal computing.

Of course, it was the digressions that made the other forum so interesting.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 2:14:15 am

[Walter Soyka] "I think that this is quite literally a conspiracy theory."

Agreed, which is why I routinely refer to the anti-Adobe crowd here as "Truthers".


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 6:02:05 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on May 28, 2014 at 6:06:55 pm

Well I'm with you, Walter, on the "what does it mean to computing" for people like us (still a broad sample). I do believe Mr. Narayen sees it more from the Wall Street side, and the size of his personal bank balance, given the insider options exercised since CC came into play by many of the executives there. That is his job, of course (stock value), but I do believe he needs to consider his customers.

Regarding the return to Adobe Rental vs. Purchase, I would bet most of us here went mostly for Production Premium, not whole boat (as we used to say in sales) of Master Suite, and the fact that we could skip one and still upgrade for $350 for a new full year addition changes the cost equation a bit.

But the sticking point, the elephant in the room, heck it might as well be in our beds it has been pointed out so often, is they are providing NO WAY OUT. I really do believe that is at least somewhat analogous to the sixties, early seventies when we had little or no control over our computing environment.

I remember visiting Ames Research Center South of SF near Silicon Valley where my best friend was an official visiting artist. He let me participate with him. It is the NASA facility where much flight simulation was done on Evans and Sutherland visualization systems. (Look it up on Google, historic) I wished I could get more access. My friends position got some, but not much, through some grants he wrote. Those experiences make me a little wary of the "poof it disappears, it's not really yours" nature of Creative Cloud. Would much rather OWN my license in chunks than go back forever with the credit card debited automatically.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 28, 2014 at 11:33:33 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "...Those experiences make me a little wary of the "poof it disappears, it's not really yours" nature of Creative Cloud. Would much rather OWN my license in chunks than go back forever with the credit card debited automatically."

Fascinating past example Jim of what is so worrisome about mandatory CC. At the very beginning of all this mess there was an article from Aharon Rabinowitz where he said essentially the same thing "you never owned it anyway". I recoiled.

While technically true, that single comment demonstrated the wide chasm between people who believe this is dangerous and those who do not.


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 12:04:38 am

Well, there is one thing I do own, and that is the work I produce with any software, the product of my creativity. It just makes me a little uneasy if I can be cut off from it if my credit rating goes downhill.

Seriously, though, what do we want from Adobe? Any creative software? What freedom has personal computing given us, and why will some of us, myself included, not cooperate with this model? What would it take to bring us back? We are obviously quite diverse. I was about to give my list, but I would like to hear yours. Why does it work for you? Do you have hesitations? Or do you see this as a new found freedom?

In my case, I really think a lot of it can be traced to a desire to remain true to the concepts of personal computing I have become used to. Sell me the software, I'll create and own the product, convince me I should upgrade. There is a freedom in that I do not wish to relinquish.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 12:44:39 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Seriously, though, what do we want from Adobe? Any creative software? What freedom has personal computing given us, and why will some of us, myself included, not cooperate with this model? What would it take to bring us back? We are obviously quite diverse"

How about a compromise? I know, we've discussed it all before, but:

There has to be a way of supporting Adobe financially, so it can continue to provide us with the tools that have become such an integral part of our workflows without us giving up the entire concept of "empowered" or "personal" computing and simply becoming rental slaves.

1. I am interested in where Cloud computing is going. All kinds of value-add that MAY appear over time, will always be interested. Walter is a big believer in these trends, and I respect his opinion. But until it materializes from Adobe, the Emperor is lacking in the clothing area. Time will tell

2. In the meantime, I'm completely willing to submit to a new payment process where Adobe is guaranteed my contributions to it's success, monthly or annually, until the point where I need to get off the merry-go-round. How about a minimum number of years of subscriptions? Why not? Seriously, tell me why not?


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 2:15:26 am

[Chris Pettit] "While technically true"

You just obliterated the second half of your statement right out of the gate.

It is true. The difference is between those who realize it is true, and those who continue to want to lie to themselves to be able to feel better.


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 4:03:53 am

[Gary Huff] "[Chris Pettit] "While technically true" You just obliterated the second half of your statement right out of the gate."

Since my previous emphasis appears to have been unclear I'll try again:

......the wide chasm between people who believe this is dangerous and those who do not.....

Note to self: Mark Gary in the "those who do not" column. Check.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 1:23:28 pm

[Chris Pettit] ".....the wide chasm between people who believe this is dangerous and those who do not....."

Except it was always true, thus the wide chasm is an illusion.

Can you really "own" something of which a perfect copy can be made well unto infinity? No one can copy your house, or your car, or your television set, etc. but your copy of Adobe CS6 can be duplicated perfectly.


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 2:23:14 pm

[Gary Huff] "Can you really "own" something of which a perfect copy can be made well unto infinity?"

Semantics. I am licensed to use the software in perpetuity. Couldn't care less if I technically own it or not. It doesn't stop working if I quit making payments to Adobe. And my work does not suddenly become inaccessible in the same circumstance.

But then this has been litigated many times previously.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 4:09:09 pm

[Chris Pettit] "
But then this has been litigated many times previously."


Yes it has.


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 5:39:00 pm
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on May 29, 2014 at 6:47:58 pm

[Gary Huff] "Can you really "own" something of which a perfect copy can be made well unto infinity?"

Gary,

Your question about whether Adobe can "own" the software or not is interesting.

There are also interesting questions in the link you provided (restricting ourselves to U.S. jurisdiction):
#Conflicting_precedent.3F'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.#Conflicting_precedent.3F

United States v. Wise (9th Cir. 1977)
"... the court found that the crucial factor was whether the transaction gave rise to a right of perpetual possession in the transferee."

Triad Sys. Corp. v. Southeastern Express Co. (9th Cir. 1995)
"... the court implicitly distinguished between owners of copies of software and non-owners by contrasting those that purchased "the software outright" who were presumed to have … rights, with those who did not."

I think EULAs are an interesting study because not all aspects of them have been tested in court. What a licensor claims in the EULA and what is legally enforceable are two different things, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA#Enforceability_of_EULAs_in_the_United_Sta...
"Some courts that have addressed the validity of the shrinkwrap license agreements have found some EULAs to be invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the U.C.C. … No court has ruled on the validity of EULAs generally; decisions are limited to particular provisions and terms."

But if Adobe can't "own" the software they offer, and the terms have to be negotiated, then it does leave a lot open in terms of their relationship with the people who use their software.

Franz.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 7:54:45 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "But if Adobe can't "own" the software they offer"

But that's different. They "own" it because they have the source code and can change the software on a whim.

You cannot do that with the copy you purchased, which is exactly the same as a copy downloaded from, say, a pirate site.


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 8:07:38 pm
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on May 29, 2014 at 8:10:08 pm

[Gary Huff] "They "own" it because they have the source code and can change the software on a whim."

Gary,

I'm not really understanding the issue of ownership that you are trying to open up - ability to copy vs. ability to change seems to be your distinction.

If you are suggesting that the debate centres on issues of control, I would agree with you.

Franz.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 10:47:29 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "
I'm not really understanding the issue of ownership that you are trying to open up - ability to copy vs. ability to change seems to be your distinction."


Yes, unless you disagree that software just appears out of thin air. Does software appear out of thin air or does a particular human being (and multiples of such) sit down in front of a computer and write out lines of code that equals the software that you use?

I feel we have to start with the basics.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 11:12:37 pm

By that analogy, you could ask:

Does a house appear out of thin air?
Does a car appear out of thin air?

Someone has to make them, following a design, and then make a copy, and so on, for forever.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 12:44:16 am

Yes, but that car cannot be duplicated exactly...transporters don't exist yet. On top of that, basic manufacturing WILL go through this once 3D printers are affordable and ubiquitous.


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 1:42:54 am

[Gary Huff] "... that car cannot be duplicated exactly."

Gary,

This does raise a fundamental question about copies.

"...a digit value of 1 ... is represented by a more positive voltage relative to the representation of 0. The specific voltages are different for different logic families and variations are permitted to allow for component aging and noise immunity. For example, in transistor–transistor logic (TTL) and compatible circuits, digit values 0 and 1 at the output of a device are represented by no higher than 0.4 volts and no lower than 2.6 volts, respectively; while TTL inputs are specified to recognize 0.8 volts or below as 0 and 2.2 volts or above as 1."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit#Physical_representation

Values must be represented to be copied, and that representation does bring all the problems (or charm) of the physical world with it.

It doesn't take much to start comparing the "value" of a car (vs. it's variable physicality) to the "values" representing software code (vs. their variable physicality).

I think we're in Plato's realm here. Or Cocteau's.

Franz.


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 1:58:36 am

It is still an analog world. No duplication is perfect. Only access is important. Perfect or not, I only care if I can use it...

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 4:32:48 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "This does raise a fundamental question about copies."

I cannot make an imperfect copy of software, otherwise it ceases to work.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 11:10:15 pm

I drive a Toyota.
I live in a tract home.

Copies, man. Copies. Yep, we can own copies.


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 29, 2014 at 11:50:10 pm

The difference is we own the key. A car, a house, a software application. Without the key (the pink slip, the deed, the license), we can be evicted. I choose not to be evicted. I choose owning the key, not renting it. Hertz Rent-A-Software.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 12:45:08 am

You don't own the software key. It's not a deed.


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 1:09:16 am

It's a serial #, a dongle, whatever. It is hard to take away regardless of the finer legal points. CC goes away automatically. No appeal. I was going to say with a keystoke, but I'm sure it is not even that.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 4:31:09 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 30, 2014 at 4:31:35 pm

[Jim Wiseman] " It's a serial #, a dongle, whatever. It is hard to take away regardless of the finer legal points."

How many new pieces of software are using a dongle vs a serial number that requires Internet activation? It's merely a level of technology that was needed at one point, but isn't needed now. Now you have a serial number that requires pinging a server on the Internet, which can be revoked at any time for any reason.

And I'm not talking Adobe CC...there's a ton of software out there that does that.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 5:24:48 pm

[Gary Huff] "Now you have a serial number that requires pinging a server on the Internet, which can be revoked at any time for any reason.

And I'm not talking Adobe CC...there's a ton of software out there that does that."


Name one example.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 8:11:29 pm

IZotope RX Advanced.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 8:26:49 pm

[Gary Huff] "IZotope RX Advanced."

Wrong. You're confusing typical one-time challenge/response authorization with Adobe's unique "keep paying us forever or we shut down your software" DRM scheme.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 9:24:04 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 30, 2014 at 9:24:45 pm

You apparently don't understand the point, and/or how software works. I am not talking subscription based, and if you think that IZotope can't reach across the Internet and deactivate you remotely, then you are astoundingly naive.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 9:31:44 pm
Last Edited By David Lawrence on May 30, 2014 at 9:38:40 pm

[Gary Huff] "You apparently don't understand the point, and/or how software works. I am not talking subscription based, and if you think that IZotope can't reach across the Internet and deactivate you remotely, then you are astoundingly naive."

That's right Gary. I have no idea how software works. Maybe you can explain to me how IZotope reaches into my computer and deactivates itself after I authorize it and disconnect my computer from the internet.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 10:40:40 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 30, 2014 at 10:51:05 pm

Well, not if you keep moving the goal posts obviously, but that's very disineginuous of you. Besides, it's nt even the point, which you well know.

The point is that, for a lot of people, they activate over the Internet, and besides the tin-foil hat wearers, they don't constantly disconnect from the Internet (and also not some on here would who say or imply that they do).

All it has to be connected is on e for a split second, whether for updates or whatnot. And then it can be deactivated remotely if desired.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 31, 2014 at 2:43:01 am

[Gary Huff] "The point is that, for a lot of people, they activate over the Internet, and besides the tin-foil hat wearers, they don't constantly disconnect from the Internet (and also not some on here would who say or imply that they do)."
"If your computer is not connected to the internet: For offline machines, we offer a Challenge/Response authorization method. For this process, a challenge code is provided by the software on the desired machine after you perform the installation. This challenge code must then be submitted to our website via another web-connected device. A response file is then provided that you can use to authorize the offline machine. Watch the tutorial video for Challenge/Response Authorization"

https://www.izotope.com/en/support/authorization/

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 31, 2014 at 4:27:55 am

Great! How many phone activations have you personally done in the last six months?


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 31, 2014 at 5:01:58 am
Last Edited By David Lawrence on May 31, 2014 at 5:07:08 am

[Gary Huff] "Great! How many phone activations have you personally done in the last six months?"

One.

http://cineform.com/products/gopro-studio-premium

This has nothing to do with me.

Offline usage is clearly important to IZotope customers since IZotope provides not just one, but two offline authorization methods.

https://www.izotope.com/en/support/authorization/

Again, please explain to us how IZotope remotely deactivates RX Advanced on these offline and iLok licensed computers.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 31, 2014 at 2:30:38 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 31, 2014 at 2:38:31 pm

You mean having a similar kind of issue like Adobe did?


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 31, 2014 at 5:39:36 pm

[Gary Huff] "You mean having a similar kind of issue like Adobe did?"

No.

You're confusing an arbitrary outage with Adobe's new licensing terms which allows Adobe to flip a kill switch and shut off your software at any time for any reason:
19.3 Termination or Suspension of Services. Adobe may also terminate or suspend all or a portion of your account and/or access to the Services for any reason (subject to Additional Terms for certain Services). Except as may be set forth in any Additional Terms applicable to a particular Service, termination of your account may include: (a) removal of access to all offerings within the Services; (b) deletion of Your Content and Account Information, including your personal information, log-in ID and password, and all related information, files, and Materials associated with or inside your account (or any part thereof); and (c) barring of further use of the Services.

19.4 You agree that all terminations for cause shall be made in Adobe’s sole discretion and that Adobe shall not be liable to you or any third party for any termination of your account (and accompanying deletion of your Account Information), or access to the Services and Materials, including Your Content.

An outage is very different than a built-in kill switch that requires perpetual log-in.

Again, please explain how IZotope reaches into computers and deactivates RX Advanced after their customers authorize and disconnect their computers from the internet.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 31, 2014 at 7:30:50 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 31, 2014 at 7:44:52 pm

[David Lawrence] "You're confusing an arbitrary outage with Adobe's new licensing terms which allows Adobe to flip a kill switch and shut off your software at any time for any reason:"

Apparently you don't see how an outage that kills your ability to use previously licensed software means that deliberate action can also be taken. But that's hardly my fault.

[David Lawrence] "Again, please explain how IZotope reaches into computers and deactivates RX Advanced after their customers authorize and disconnect their computers from the internet."

I guess you are avoiding the original point? Or perhaps you still don't understand it? Given the answer above, the evidence points to the latter. So perhaps I should be more explicit for your benefit?

[Gary Huff] "How many new pices of software are using a dongle vs a serial number that requires Internet activation?

Resolve being the obvious exception (if you use the full version), how many dongles have you dealt with over the last year? Not a whole lot I would imagine.

It's merely a level of technology that was needed at one point, but isn't needed now.

Dongles were individual pieces of hardware that, at one time in the past, was the only way to limit software operation to a single machine. Now, I haven't crunched the numbers on this, but it makes sense to me that operating an serial number authorization server over the Internet is cheaper than manufacturing physical dongles, hence why they have largely gone out of style where they were once a little more ubiquitous with software that also included more than just video software.

Now you have a serial number that requires pinging a server on the Internet, which can be revoked at any time for any reason.

I take it you believe serial numbers cannot be revoked on the authorization server? Because you want to argue with me over what I have said, and that's what I said. And I guess you don't know this, but software tends to ping back in for a quick check when it checks for updates. That's when you can sometimes run into revocation, so duh, of course it doesn't reach across the air to a non-Internet connected machine. But then you don't get the updates either, so I could be just as much of a jerk and ask you how you install updates without ever being connected to the Internet (and sometimes, a serial revocation is in those updates, so, no, playing the computer security theater of USB stick transfers between connected and non-connected devices won't do you any good there).

And I'm not talking Adobe CC...there's a ton of software out there that does that."

In the case of Adobe CC, you only have to have it connected once every 99 days for the check in and it works, not that I have tested it, or anyone else I have heard of, because that's for those who feel better about their computer security theater rites.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 31, 2014 at 8:25:19 pm
Last Edited By David Lawrence on May 31, 2014 at 8:39:04 pm

[Gary Huff] "Apparently you don't see how an outage that kills your ability to use previously licensed software means that deliberate action can also be taken."

Sigh.

No, Gary.

My point is that desktop software that refuses to run without a corporate-controlled kill switch, a kill switch that requires login and demands infinite payment is vastly different than typical software authorization.

Adobe's new business model is "pay us forever or we shut you down".

Getting back to Walter's more interesting question of "what is personal computing?", I think I can safely say that it's the opposite of "pay us forever or we shut you down".

None of your examples address this fact or answer my question which is the core of this debate:

Again, please explain how IZotope reaches into computers and deactivates RX Advanced after their customers authorize and disconnect their computers from the internet.

Since you won't answer this simple question, I'll answer it for you -

They can't.

But more importantly, they don't base their entire business model on having the ability to.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 31, 2014 at 9:01:11 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 31, 2014 at 9:01:50 pm

[David Lawrence] "
My point is that desktop software that refuses to run without a corporate-controlled kill switch, a kill switch that requires login and demands infinite payment is vastly different than typical software authorization."


Who is saying that? I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that the ability to kill your software remotely is always a possibility, but one that has so far been primarily used to disable activation for keys that are clearly being shared publicly. Whether or not you agree you the subscription model is inconsequential to the fact that a lot of software is activated via a server on a machine that is connected to the Internet and can have its authorization revoked at any time for any reason in that circumstance. Adobe just goes a step further by making it happen when you cancel your subscription.

[David Lawrence] "I think I can safely say that it's the opposite of "pay us forever or we shut you down"."

Like the power company? You don't pay the power company forever, then your machine shuts down. Simple as that, really.


[David Lawrence] "But more importantly, they don't base their entire business model on having the ability to."

Yet.


Return to posts index

Tim Wilson
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 2:12:39 am

[David Lawrence] "....termination of your account may include....


Note again that I'm a fan of Creative Cloud, and I have no problems with a subscription-only approach. I just don't. If I was inside Adobe, I'd counsel them to stay the course. I just would.

BUT, David has pointed out a very real, very specific risk that you fail to assess at your peril.

Since David quotes the Terms of Service without editing, I encourage you to reference his post again. Allow me, then, to use gently abridged quotes, my italics added:

They may turn off your access to the software at any time, not just for non-payment, but for any reason.

Adobe may terminate your account for any reason.


They may prevent you from ever accessing it again.

Termination may include barring of further use of the Services.


They may also prevent you from accessing your own content ever again.

Adobe shall not be liable for any termination of access to the Services and Materials, including Your Content.


And in case you missed it from the "Adobe shall not be liable" phrase, let's be clear: there's nothing you can do about it.

All terminations for cause shall be made in Adobe’s sole discretion



In that clause, I emphasized "for cause" rather than "sole discretion" because the "causes" are also laid out in the TOS...although I think that the phrase "for any reason" may trump it.

So, in discussing other software that may or may not be similar, quoting from that other software's Terms of Service would be in order. If a TOS agreement from iZotope or anyone else says that they can end your access to both the software and your content, for any reason --they're similar.

If not, not.

Again noting that, personally, I'm fine with agreeing to this, I'm also perfectly fine with you NOT being....

...but speaking now as a moderator, I'm getting nervous here. Accusing people of axe grinding, obtuseness and such is ENTIRELY NOT ALLOWED.

As I had to note in the FCPX forum not long ago, please think twice before composing a post with the word "you" in it. In a debate forum, it's quite likely outside the COW's own terms of service regarding forum interactions.

As always, please feel free to contact me directly for any clarifications, or discussions of which of Led Zeppelin's records is the best.

Regards,
Tim

PS. Physical Graffiti


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 3:10:47 am

I do understand the point Tim. But it remains that I would prefer using software without a kill switch or, at least, some possibility of my being able to use my software in the future without further encumbrances. Sort of like being able to play my Led Zeppelin album without further payment. Just have to keep my turntable, amp and speakers working.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 4:39:01 am

[Jim Wiseman] " Just have to keep my turntable, amp and speakers working."

Along with paying that monthly electric bill.

Forever.


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 6:10:13 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Jun 1, 2014 at 6:13:03 am

The electric bill does a lot more than keep Led Zeppelin going. Honestly… This isn't Electricity, the Debate. AC or DC? Clue, Edison lost.


Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 3:02:07 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jun 1, 2014 at 3:02:57 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "The electric bill does a lot more than keep Led Zeppelin going. Honestly… This isn't Electricity, the Debate. AC or DC? Clue, Edison lost."

Nice, but it doesn't change the fact that it's no different. You stop paying Big Electric, you don't have a way to work or access your work.

Unless you buy a generator. But now you have to buy gas on a constant basis, even if it's not subscription-based.


Return to posts index

Brian Charles
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 3:47:18 pm

[Gary Huff] "Nice, but it doesn't change the fact that it's no different. You stop paying Big Electric, you don't have a way to work or access your work.

Unless you buy a generator. But now you have to buy gas on a constant basis, even if it's not subscription-based."


I think the point here is that there are options. Whether electricity is purchased from a supplier or generated from some sort of fuel – or solar.

Nonetheless, I would argue that electricity is a different sort of good from software.

Off topic: Despite Tim's love of Spotify, it doesn't prevent customers from purchasing music elsewhere.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 8:08:55 pm

[Brian Charles] "I think the point here is that there are options. Whether electricity is purchased from a supplier or generated from some sort of fuel – or solar."

And there are options with software...but like gasoline or solar powered electricity, sometimes those other options are not what you need.

No one here is running a business solely on solar or gasoline power. They are "subscribing" to their monthly electricity provider.

[Brian Charles] "Nonetheless, I would argue that electricity is a different sort of good from software."

Okay then, why?


Return to posts index

Brian Charles
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 2, 2014 at 4:57:03 pm
Last Edited By Brian Charles on Jun 2, 2014 at 4:57:30 pm

[Gary Huff] "[Brian Charles] "Nonetheless, I would argue that electricity is a different sort of good from software."

Okay then, why?"


The answer depends on how broadly categories are defined and understood. While in the broadest sense software and electricity share certain characteristics, such as: they are things that can be bought and sold, they are nouns etc., in other senses they are different such as: electricity powers my antique toaster, software calculates my spreadsheets.


I'm inclined to agree with Aindreas, that software and electricity are categorized differently as he so eloquently illustrates in his example of salmon and meteorites.



Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 2, 2014 at 6:16:28 pm

salmos and meteorites share a comun thing. they both race to their ends.

ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 2, 2014 at 6:47:32 pm

[Brian Charles] "in other senses they are different such as: electricity powers my antique toaster, software calculates my spreadsheets."

But that's a basic difference. What is the explicit reason why you are okay with being beholden to a monthly charge for electricity for your toaster for the rest of your life, but you have a major problem with subscribing to a software package?


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 2, 2014 at 7:20:55 pm

electricity has always been a service. there is no viable way to keep it or make it, its much easier just to pay for it,

ricardo martu


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 2, 2014 at 8:32:05 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "electricity has always been a service."

More importantly, electricity is a consumable.

Once you use it up. it's gone.

Software on the other hand is:

1) infinitely copiable
2) infinitely transmissible
3) infinitely storable

I truly wish we lived in a world where electricity was the same.

The comparison is completely absurd.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 3, 2014 at 3:50:46 am

[David Lawrence] "The comparison is completely absurd."

I don't agree. It's only absurd when you compare it directly.

Software is "consumable" in a way. You're not using Creative Suite, Creative Suite 2, 3, or 4. Why? Because they were supplemented. The development is an ongoing process, and a process that costs money. You "consumed" the previous versions you used and supplemented them when a new one became available. The process takes a differing amount of time in different scenarios, but, by and large, people aren't using, say, Photoshop 7.

Now, some people's power needs are incredibly limited. They live on a boat, or in incredibly energy efficient housing, and so on. Some could potentially power all of their needs via solar. However, the vast majority of us here require the option that gives us a specific level of energy that we can rely on and that other means of energy production cannot meet. Which means we literally have no choice but to pay the power company on a monthly basis with no exit strategy.


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 3, 2014 at 4:53:25 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "electricity has always been a service. there is no viable way to keep it or make it, its much easier just to pay for it,"

So it's different because it has always been different? I don't accept that as an answer.


Return to posts index

Brian Charles
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 2, 2014 at 7:28:46 pm

[Gary Huff] "But that's a basic difference. What is the explicit reason why you are okay with being beholden to a monthly charge for electricity for your toaster for the rest of your life, but you have a major problem with subscribing to a software package?"

Excellent question. First, my electric bill is metered and charged on a usage basis, if I don't use it, I don't get charged other than a basic connection fee. Second, I have never owned a perpetual licence for electricity, but have and do for software. Third I would not be beholden to a particular power company for the use of my toaster were I to change electric suppliers or sources I could continue to use the toaster.

The analogy breaks down very quickly, electricity is not software, nor is toast a the work I produce.

I'm not opposed to subscribing in-and-of itself, its the lack of an off-ramp Jim Wiseman and David Lawrence have mentioned. Were there some middle ground between subscription only and perpetual license only, a 3 year buy-out or option to freeze the software at a particular point, both discussed previously in this debate – I'd be amenable to an option like that.



Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 3, 2014 at 3:57:58 am

[Brian Charles] "First, my electric bill is metered and charged on a usage basis, if I don't use it, I don't get charged other than a basic connection fee."

I would say that this is a superficial difference. Adobe could just as easily charge you a pittance for every time you open, say, Premiere or Photoshop. They have just elected to give you a set price on a monthly basis. I have been on a water plan before that had a basic, set rate of consumption that didn't really take into account what you actually used, so utilities can vary on that as well.

[Brian Charles] "Second, I have never owned a perpetual licence for electricity, but have and do for software"

Again, a superficial difference. Software is moving in that direction, and the question is why do you give a pass for electricity and not for a software package that is experiencing ongoing development.

[Brian Charles] "Third I would not be beholden to a particular power company for the use of my toaster were I to change electric suppliers or sources I could continue to use the toaster. "

Not sure if you actually have the option to change power providers, but I don't. On top of that, you still need power of some kind to use the toaster. You can still use your video files, photos, motion graphic renders, sounds, music, ect. with Media Composer, FCPX, Lightworks, Edius, Vegas, etc.

[Brian Charles] "The analogy breaks down very quickly, electricity is not software, nor is toast a the work I produce"

Assertion. The analogy breaks down when you approach it from a direct comparison. You require electricity to operate what you need to work. You require software to operate what you need to work. Why is electricity an okay expenditure for you on a month-to-month basis for the rest of your life something you don't have a problem with, but a company offering their software package in the same way is straight from pit of hell?

[Brian Charles] "I'm not opposed to subscribing in-and-of itself, its the lack of an off-ramp Jim Wiseman and David Lawrence have mentioned."

That's fair, but I think the "off ramp" option is way overblown. Do people make the choice to dump their NLE willy-nilly like that with no planning whatsoever? Did any of those Avid projects translate over to Final Cut Pro when editors moved over to that?


Return to posts index

Brian Charles
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 3, 2014 at 5:07:33 am

[Gary Huff] "
[Brian Charles] "I'm not opposed to subscribing in-and-of itself, its the lack of an off-ramp Jim Wiseman and David Lawrence have mentioned."

That's fair, but I think the "off ramp" option is way overblown. Do people make the choice to dump their NLE willy-nilly like that with no planning whatsoever? Did any of those Avid projects translate over to Final Cut Pro when editors moved over to that?"


Perhaps this is the case with NLE's. In addition to shooting and editing video I do a fair amount of motion graphics and have built an asset library of material, templates, scripts, etc in After Effects that may not be easily duplicated in other applications. I've edited using FCP, FCP X, Premiere and would have little trouble moving my older media files through any of them. For the motion graphics and interactive media work (Flash) its another matter.

Its not only about one NLE.



Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 3, 2014 at 12:56:10 pm

[Brian Charles] "I do a fair amount of motion graphics and have built an asset library of material, templates, scripts, etc in After Effects that may not be easily duplicated in other applications."

Fair enough, but again, if Adobe severely dropped the ball on After Effects and you were no longer able to stick with an older version given the continuous march of software development (on the OS side), and you switched over to some new compositing software, you would ultimately be in the same boat, no matter what the licensing model was.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 7:09:58 pm

that is an utterly crazy comparison - you're comparing forced software tools DRM and rental with access to the national power grid.

at that rate, you might as well draw direct comparisons between salmon with meteorites.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 8:09:41 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that is an utterly crazy comparison - you're comparing forced software tools DRM and rental with access to the national power grid. bat that rate, you might as well draw direct comparisons between salmon with meteorites."

Okay, you need to more explicit than that. Why is not a direct comparison? Can you run your business without being connected to a national power grid and paying per month for it?


Return to posts index

David Mathis
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 1, 2014 at 3:53:59 pm

Thank you. I do my best to keep an honest opinion but at the same time I try to keep a balanced, civilized and respectful approach.

One thing to disagree with others in a respectful manner, yet another to resort to personal attacks. My goal is to never cross that yellow line.


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 26, 2014 at 3:08:26 am

[Walter Soyka] "What does "personal computing" mean to you?"

Pretty much what it meant 20 years ago. No matter how different or powerful the tools become, or how integrated they may become over time to cloud solutions, a computer that serves my needs, and is a tool that I have control over for my purposes, to serve my business, creative and personal needs. That's what it means. And it will be 20 years from now, no matter how different the manifestation of that computing becomes.

In fact, as we move forward, computing ecosystems that give me MORE control, not less, will be the ones that I invest in. I'm not alone. More control, not less.

[Walter Soyka] "What if personal computing was just a step on the road toward pervasive computing?"

online definition or 'pervasive':

"(especially of an unwelcome influence or physical effect) spreading widely throughout an area or a group of people."

Not sure of exactly what you mean there Walter. Define pervasive, the classic definition of "pervasive" is cause for alarm from my perspective. Computing is in a real sense already pervasive. It's found it's way into all aspects of our lives, professional, personal, etc. My phone is 10 times more powerful than the first graphics computer I bought in the early nineties. It's here already. So the added word of 'pervasive' makes me wonder what you think computers are in the process of evolving to. To me, personal computing means more power, regardless of how I get that power, locally or through SAAS (REAL SAAS, not fake stuff) or other solutions.


[Walter Soyka] "If personal computing means self-sufficiency to you, do you still find that achievable in our increasingly networked world?"

Yes. Totally. In fact networking enhances my personal computing power and choices. It enhances my ability to compete with other businesses. It enhances every aspect of computing as an individual and as a team. In fact the more my team knows about networking, the more we exploit networking, the more empowered (and independent) my team is. Ultimately that may well include REAL cloud services, but Adobe hasn't offered that yet.

[Walter Soyka] "Put another way, is a personal computer with no Internet or other network connectivity appealing or even relevant?"

I'm at a loss here. Mostly no, but in some cases, particularly in high end video, yes. Either way, personal computing is not (IMO) defined by whether its networked or not. Both scenarios are legitimate and empowered.


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 26, 2014 at 5:07:01 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on May 26, 2014 at 5:33:13 am

Personal computing means to me exactly what it says it is: "Personal Computing". Where I (the person) control the software, the assets, and their interaction without the constant interference or need for interaction with the software providers, processing of my data, or access to my past assemblages of those assets and data into programming or other works of art or commerce. Without the need for the constant interference and irritation of payment for access to the above. Without the fear that without payment it could all become inaccessible.

I still see this Creative Cloud model as very nearly as bad as the days when access to computing was controlled by large entities such as corporations and government agencies, and the individual operated at best, a terminal that had limited and controlled interaction with the actual massaging of the data. Of course there are differences, but we are basically paying Adobe monthly to allow us the freedom to do all of the above on computers we paid for, and not long ago could interact with without their interference once we obtained a license for software that could not be revoked under normal circumstances. It comes far too close to the days of dumb terminals where access to the jewels are out of the individuals control. Dumb terminals with credit card gatekeeping at worst. Personal Computing means exactly what it says, computing largely under the control of the user at base level. Anyone remember the original version of TRON?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 26, 2014 at 2:43:20 pm

Bicycle for the mind Walter? Fine...

(We hear Bob Costas voice...)
"Welcome to the 2015 Tour de France - as fans are aware, there was a rules change and this year and both individuals and team riders are now required to RENT their bicycles or they are not allowed to compete.
The big day one news is that more than twenty of the top riders - some even representing corporate sports power players - are experiencing various difficulties at the rental stage. We have a late report that Team USA - who recently negotiated a new sponsorship agreement with Diners Club - has had sporadic issues related to invalid PIN numbers and may not be allowed to compete at all..."

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 26, 2014 at 6:37:20 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Andrew & Aindreas, I am not even talking about Creative Cloud yet. I am just talking about what personal computing means, so we can discuss whether we still really have this today or if we are now in some other phase. The term and the concept of personal computing predates today's enormous connectivity, so I'm trying to level-set. Can CC be a threat to personal computing if classically-defined "personal computing" is already history?"


Let me take another stab at what personal computing in general means to me. When I was a little kid (mid/late 80's) our home computer was used for some video games but mostly word processing. If we needed to look something up we used the encyclopedias on the book shelf or took a trip to the library. We watched the news on TV, had subscriptions to the local paper as well as Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated, Reader's Digest, etc.,. If we wanted to see a movie we either went to the theater (after looking up the times in the paper) or made a trip to Blockbuster to rent a VHS tape. When I first read "The Hobbit" and "Animal Farm" I read from physical books.

Today I do 95% of those things on a computer (I still read some physical books and watch some OTA TV). Could be a laptop a smart phone or a video game console but it's a computer of some kind. Personal computing to me, today, is on a connected device. I won't even consider a new TV that can't connect to the internet let alone a computer, tablet, or smartphone.

So, in a nutshell, baseline personal computing to me has to included an Internet connection.


Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 12:01:13 am

I absolutely agree that an internet connection is a necessity for Personal Computing today. No argument there. I see no problem whatsoever with internet distribution of software or sharing of projects and assets. But I do not agree that the internet should be used to impose a paid gateway to applications needed to create that unique content or bar or allow access to those software applications just because it is a convenient way for a corporation to collect guaranteed revenue. It seems as if the guarantee is a one way proposition with all of the advantage going to Adobe. Creative Cloud is just a fancy name for DRM with lock in.

There was nothing wrong with distributed computing when it was absolutely required. However, all of us have more power on our desktops than the largest organizations had when using a distributed dumb terminal model was a necessity. I fail to see why our applications cannot reside on our local computer with a choice of long term (permanent) licensing when there is no advantage to having controlled access as was common 30 plus years ago. There should at least be a choice to rent or purchase a license.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 8:25:19 pm

i think the cloud is a real threat to personal computing because it will cease to be personal. once everything is on the cloud it can be scanned for audio,text and probably images. people you wouldnt want could know your content before it should be know if it should be known. nothing in yhe cloud is safe the only thing safe is your pc not connected to the cloud.


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 9:48:22 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "i think the cloud is a real threat to personal computing because it will cease to be personal. once everything is on the cloud it can be scanned for audio,text and probably images. people you wouldnt want could know your content before it should be know if it should be known. nothing in yhe cloud is safe the only thing safe is your pc not connected to the cloud.
"


Looking at it that way personal computing is already dead and it died a long time ago.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 10:07:46 pm

just turn off you connection and its personal again.


ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 10:18:20 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "just turn off you connection and its personal again."

You can turn off your connection but all of your emails, forum posts, social media updates, files stored on Dropbox, purchase histories with online retailers, bank/credit card records, human resource records from previous employers, etc., all remain somewhere in the Cloud.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 10:57:40 pm
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on May 27, 2014 at 11:09:49 pm

i use a phone call if posible or my smart phone. my work computer is not connected to the internet that is what is most important. you can also use false dns numbers and anonymos browsing,you know.

ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 27, 2014 at 11:31:42 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "i use a phone call if posible or my smart phone. my work computer is not connected to the internet that is what is most important. you can also use false dns numbers and anonymos browsing,you know."

There are certainly things you can do to minimize the personal information about you floating around but when it comes to things like bank records and new hire/pay roll paper work that's completely out of our hands. I used to work at a major global corporation and one day we get notified that the HR servers had been hacked and unknown amounts of private information was stolen (names, addresses, dates of birth, social security/social security/passport numbers, employment history, basic everything you'd want to steal someone's identity).

In first world countries personal computing is no longer a desktop PC that's not connected to the Internet. It's an always on connection of 'smart' and mobile devices that derive the majority of their functionality by being connected to remote services (Google Maps, Facebook, online banking, texting, Evernote, etc.,). Heck, the rumored 'big thing' that Apple is going to unveil at WWDC is home automation. Of course individuals can try and minimize their presence on the Internet but the overall trend is more info going into the Cloud and more Cloud services, not less.

FWIW, my work computer is connected to the Internet because it makes my job easier and, in the grand scheme of things, there's nothing of personal importance on it. If someone wants to steal my identity or financial data they aren't going to find any of that info mixed in with editing projects and rough cuts.


Return to posts index

Brian Charles
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 12:34:44 am

First, let me be clear, I’m not a fan of Creative Cloud in its current form. Like David Lawrence I see it as a form of DRM. Like Jim Wiseman I want to know I can access my own work in perpetuity without having to continue to pay a fee for that privilege.

Is Creative Cloud a Threat to Personal Computing?

I’m not sure this is a question, though it sounds like one. Any more than this is a valid question: are rental cars a threat to personal driving? It might depend on whether there were other options, what those options are and whether those options are restricted by the introduction of the rental car etc.

In any case, I think the discussion regarding Internet or web connected computing vs disconnected computing is a sideshow to the main event –  the evident discontent with Adobe’s move to rental vs perpetual license.

Software, in particular creative software that has a long history of development and use is a unique type of good, so finding analogous sorts of products for comparison or to advance an argument is difficult.

Suppose GM decided it would no longer sell cars* but only rent them on a monthly basis. Consumers could decide to stay with GM or when their current cars wore out they could switch to Ford or Toyota. In economic terms this is a calculation about products and their substitutes. If I don’t like Pepsi I can choose not to buy it or choose alternatives like Coke, Dr. Pepper or water. Of course were GM to have the only solar powered flying car then they’d have a distinct advantage over competitors. Until Adobe has the best or only product at a price point in a category then we have a choice not to use them.

The problem for many with Creative Cloud is that in some cases there are no direct substitutes. Adobe may view this as a market advantage. Offering no alternative but subscription** to products some of us are dependent on begins to feel like coercion. No customer wants to be coerced into a relationship with a supplier.

Michael Sandal paraphrases Aristotle when he says” “The just way of allocating access to a good may have something to do with the nature of that good, with its purpose.”

We can argue the nature and purpose of the software we use and I’m fairly certain that there would be disagreement among us just as each of us produce different products for different clients.

In market terms, Adobe is certainly within their right changing the way they profit from their customers. As customers we’re free as well, though if the trend is for professional software to go the way of the Creative Cloud its good to make noise and hope there are viable alternatives for us.

I don’t believe that Adobe will change course despite the outages and outrage.

* I know some may wish GM would stop selling automobiles in light of recent revelations about their corporate ethics.
** really rental, if I subscribe to a newspaper or magazine I get to keep it – though I’m aware this is changing in the on-line realm e.g. New York Times



Return to posts index

Jim Wiseman
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 1:03:26 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on May 30, 2014 at 1:04:24 am

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. This is a level of discourse I appreciate.

Adobe does have the advantage of inertia. And for people who have used and become accomplished in a couple of important programs, primarily AE and Photoshop, there is a lot of vested interest on both sides of the equation.

For those artists just coming up, I do believe it will be up to other companies to fill the void Adobe has left, or rental could enjoy a short term burst. It is a very large opportunity, I can't see other companies not trying to satisfy it. Fortunately, for me, my concern with Adobe only touches a couple of points. They have already given a lot of ground with the Photoshop deal. CS6 version will do for quite a while, anyway. I never got into AE, so no problem there. Premiere I use as a front end to two other NLE's. Why should I care then?

I see rental as a very insidious trend. I would like it if Adobe and the rest of the creative community could just sing along together and be happy. But I think one partner is asking too much.

We live in interesting, times, and you know what the Chinese said about that.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


Return to posts index

Brian Charles
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 1:14:24 am

[Jim Wiseman] "I see rental as a very insidious trend"

Ditto.

Unlike you I'm pretty hooked into After Effects, this may become the sore spot for me.

I'm also in an odd position since I have a perpetual license for CS6 and earlier versions (to avoid resurrecting a flame war I avoid using the word 'own') AND I teach motion graphics using CC – so through the school I pay a small fee for access to CC.

I'm very disciplined and only use CS6 for my commercial work. So far there's been nothing really compelling to make me want to buy in to the Cloud. Of course when Adobe comes out with that flying car I'll be very tempted.



Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 11:03:46 am

Anybody subscribing to Netflix or Spotify?

Is that the same, or is it different?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 12:57:10 pm

its the same collar different dog.

ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Brian Charles
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 2:09:26 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Anybody subscribing to Netflix or Spotify?

Is that the same, or is it different?"


I think these are different categories of goods. They are consumables that aren't used to produce my work.

Do you subscribe to your car, your microwave, your hammer?



Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 2:37:54 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Is that the same, or is it different?"

Completely different IMO Walter.

Those are entertainment options, not essential tools. First distinction.

Distinction 2: I still have iTunes. I can still buy movies and buy music elsewhere if I choose. I can either subscribe, purchase or both. Personally I do both BTW, and never give it a thought. Because I have options.

In fact your example illustrates what is at the fundamental core of the problem with the Adobe model. No choices.


Return to posts index

Tim Wilson
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on May 30, 2014 at 7:14:29 pm

I subscribe to Spotify, and am insane for it. It's Netflix for music.

A lot iTuners have missed the biggest part of this story, that digital sales are down 14% this year, and streaming subscriptions are up 88%. It gets even scarier for Apple when you break it down: digital sales at Amazon are actually UP, so Apple is bearing more than its share of declining digital sales...and the decline is accelerating; wheras Spotify on its own is doubling...and the rate is accelerating.

This represents real money. This year Spotify will pass iTunes for MUSIC revenue in Europe (where Spotify started), and will likely pass iTunes in the US early next year, even after only being in the US for a few years.

I wrote two massive posts about this in the FCPX forum, here and here, with a short follow-up with some new information here.


The short version for this thread is that I don't think it's any more or less instructive for Creative Cloud than Netflix. Netflix and Spotify become better examples if CC software AND PROCESSING lived in the cloud....but even that was so, I don't think Netflix, Spotify, condos or car leases are exactly applicable for reasons that others here have elucidated.

Not that I'm not as game for a good metaphor or simile as anyone else. But the dissimilarity of those pretty much rules out a simile. :-)

And man oh man, do I love Spotify. :-)


Return to posts index

Dino Sanacory
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 3, 2014 at 4:50:04 am

[Walter Soyka] "Anybody subscribing to Netflix or Spotify?

Is that the same, or is it different?"



They are completely different in many ways. Netflix is opportunity, software is potential. the product of Netflix is effectively consumed. Not in a traditional sense in that it is gone after our use of it, but it's value, to the user, is diminished once watched. We not are paying Netflix because they have servers and an internet streaming back-end that can be controlled remotely through a simple web based interface. We pay Netflix because every day, we watch something that we hadn't watched before. It makes sense to keep paying.

Adobe provides us with one thing. A tool (or to be fair, a box of tools). But that is what it is. We don't buy a tool for the thing itself. We buy it for the potential it provides. The act of acquiring it is a once and done transaction. The extent and depth to which we use that potential is on us. That we do or don't use it, or whether or not we use it well, is not where it's value comes from. It's value is for the thing that it is.

You could argue they may be the same thing if the Netflix subscription was for a single movie. That is, you pay your monthly fee for access to exactly one movie. Netflix could make a strong argument, that move cost $250 million to make, you get it for $6 a month, you can watch it whenever you want, as many times as you want. It actually doesn't sound so bad. But it is bad and It'll stop making sense, paying over and over for the same thing, real fast.

So defend Adobe, we are getting new things, updates and upgrades and stuff in the cloud. Great, if that is what I am looking for. But it's not. Sell me my tool so I can put it on the shelf as potential. I'll use it or not use it in whatever fashion I see fit. And come out with updates and upgrades. If you build a better tool, I'll buy it. And if you fix something that you screwed up, well then you should probably just give that to me.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Jun 11, 2014 at 1:05:14 am

you're right, they're wrong, but they hold multiple software monopolies.

adobe is nearly unbeatable here. the issues is how to effect change.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

enrico perei
Re: Is Creative Cloud a threat to Personal Computing?
on Dec 1, 2014 at 12:03:09 pm
Last Edited By enrico perei on Dec 1, 2014 at 12:08:37 pm

I'm a bit late but still wanted to chime in.

My opinion is divided into the following viewpoints:

1)cloud service provider (here adobe)
pro:
-securing of monthly / annual income
-optional income through additional bandwidth & storage and/or microtransactions
-anti piracy
-datamining
-absolute control over who,when,where,how etc.
-easy product maintenance
con:
-expensive IT & security infrastructure required


2)consumer
pro:
-ease of use
-no infrastructure / installation necessary
-device and location independent use
con:
-dependency on service provider
-dependency on high bandwidth internet connection
-incalculable price changes while dependent on service
-potential loss of service / data
-privacy & security risks

3)business/corporate user
pro:
same as consumer
con:
-high security risks (NDA material / trade secrets on third party servers usually not allowed)
-huge data volume / big files (i.e. psd files 100s of MB large, video data from 100s of GB to 100s of TB)
-dependency on service provider & high bandwidth internet connection
-potential loss of the ability to work when service is disrupted / ended
-potential loss / theft of data


____
Ergo:
Cloud Computing is very good for the cloud providers but very bad for us, the consumers, especially those of us working professionally with their software.
A complete cloud computing solution with all data AND software in the cloud is often not possible for business purposes and is risky when being used.
Security leaks / failures, breaches of privacy / confidentiality and service interruptions can result in severe consequences.

A local option where at least the data is not on the cloud is preferable.
Even this still requires data transfer through stable & secure high bandwidth internet connections for computing and feedback, slowing down the work.
The least disruptive and most secure would be simple online software license verification without any other data transfer with all software and data stored and executed locally.
Yet, this model is also still dependent on internet connection and security infrastructure on the workstations connected to the internet.
Many companies use internal networks disconnected from the internet for security purposes.

Recent hacks(among many) into the apple cloud show that even for consumers there is a high privacy and security risk present.

Former software models allowed for continuous, mostly infinite use after purchase.
Cloud software requires constant payments and access is lost when payments cease and/or service is ended.

This is a paradigm shift where software becomes a service to be rented.
Money,security and an inacceptable dependency on the service provider are the price to be paid.

http://www.pocano-imaging.com | visual effects & stereoscopic 3D


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]