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Ricardo Marty
universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 3:01:38 pm
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on May 20, 2014 at 3:05:29 pm

http://visualstudies.buffalo.edu/vsFacilities/2014/01/10/recommendations-to...

ricardo marty


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Andrew Kimery
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 3:15:28 pm

That's all the way from January, Ricardo. You don't think we've already argued about it yet? ;)

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/378/6819#6820


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Ricardo Marty
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 3:29:17 pm

what has changed since january?

ricardo marty


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Michael Hendrix
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 4:37:50 pm

Boo hoo...

Tuition at universities has gone to the absurd level. They want stuff for free so they can turn around and charge students more for tuition.

Also, love how he talks about not being platform or software specific yet when you look at jobs, what are the qualifications? Platforms and software.



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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 4:39:46 pm

[Michael Hendrix] "Also, love how he talks about not being platform or software specific yet when you look at jobs, what are the qualifications? Platforms and software."

Even for job postings at the university itself no doubt!


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 7:57:47 pm

That headline is a bit misleading - it should read "University pov for students, don't get into CC". As far as I can see, it's only one university. But on the other hand, if it is indeed true that the cost is going to triple, then Adobe is monumentally short-sighted. By providing the tools to train future artists and designers, they are grooming a future league of professionals who will use the tools they've learned on.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 8:19:22 pm

Anyone who starts their career with Adobe is effectively locked in for life if they want to have access to their previous work. That has always been the problem here. Never ending payments with no exit strategy. I'm not a bit surprised to see this coming from University Art and Design departments. I'm sure it is being seriously considered at all institutions.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 9:11:15 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Anyone who starts their career with Adobe is effectively locked in for life if they want to have access to their previous work."

I have access to my previous work via ProRes masters. I have a lot of work that I started my career with that is in Media 100, and would cost me money to open back up. Thankfully, I have DV tape exports.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 10:17:02 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on May 20, 2014 at 10:17:35 pm

Gary, you can use my Media 100 if you like. I still have the original and the latest 2.1.5 on my new 2013 Mac Pro. And the new one can open projects AND original footage from the earliest version more than 20 years old up to current projects and footage including RED 4k if I needed it, now, at no charge, Only expenses were a couple of software upgrades and an AJA LHi to augment the P6000 (that still works in my G4) over the years. No monthly payments, can bounce the ProRes files to any of my edit or effects systems/software. And yes, I still have all my master and original tapes and files as backup. I still enjoy editing on it, although FCP X seems to be my primary software in the future.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 11:41:19 pm

Well, thanks for the offer, but I don't need to open old project files. It all looks like crap now so it wouldn't be anything I would want to use for a paying client (old school DVCAM origination and all) and I have no use for it, outside of the masters for old times sake.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 21, 2014 at 1:30:44 am

Well I have 25 plus years of documentation of disappearing Pacific island cultures amongst other irreplaceable documentary footage, SD to HD. History won't care what it was shot on. We all have different needs and different values. I do care if I can still get to it, and so do the people paying me to edit it and those who want to study it.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 21, 2014 at 2:09:45 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "I do care if I can still get to it, and so do the people paying me to edit it and those who want to study it."

Nothing which a subscription to Creative Cloud would prevent you from doing if you decided not to continue on with it.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 21, 2014 at 9:40:35 pm

[Gary Huff] "Nothing which a subscription to Creative Cloud would prevent you from doing if you decided not to continue on with it."

What does that mean? I want my access to my work to continue.

And how much would Creative Cloud have cost me over those 20 plus years, or 10-15 years into the future? And the loss of access if I quit with the blackmail payments? I need constant access, not month to month at unknown cost. No thanks.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Rainer Schubert
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 21, 2014 at 10:03:20 pm

Same with me. I think, there is not one document of the last 12 years, I can´t open. Or I have to pay for to open.
I even can´t understand, how people can tell, that they are not interessted in the work they have done yesterday any longer.
I really can´t understand.
What are they working on?


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 3:50:09 am

[Rainer Schubert] "I think, there is not one document of the last 12 years, I can´t open. Or I have to pay for to open."

Do you absolutely 100% always open it with the software you originated it on? Or is there other software that you have opened it on that was not the originating software? (since you speak of "documents", let's say, a .DOC opening in Google Docs or Pages or the like).


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Rainer Schubert
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 8:59:55 am

I am able to open them with the origin software. With a higher version, may be, but with full functionality, if necessary.


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 3:48:59 am

[Jim Wiseman] "What does that mean? I want my access to my work to continue."

Do you lose access to your footage? If so, specifically how?

If you don't lose access to that footage, then what specific way is your access to your work lost? What specific work are we talking about here.

Remember, we all do this stuff, so you can be as explicit as possible.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 5:46:59 am

[Gary Huff] "Remember, we all do this stuff, so you can be as explicit as possible."
Can you possibly get any more snarky, Gary?

I have thousands of Media 100 MJPEG clip files and and hundreds of Media 100 timelines I can easily access and modify. These were transcoded on import from DV and Betacam SP as well as 3/4" in some cases. The new Media 100 software opens it and makes it instantly editable. Not interested in XML export to software I have to rent that won't read or operate in the same manner.

From someone who has "done all this stuff" on most levels you can think of. Hollywood and San Francisco east.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 12:44:19 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 22, 2014 at 12:46:37 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "I have thousands of Media 100 MJPEG clip files"

That can only play back in Media 100? Or they reside as separate MJPEG files on the hard drive? MotionJPEG is a known format and not unusable by other software. Hell, you can shoot MotionJPEG with a GH2. There are even some hacks for that mode.

[Jim Wiseman] "Not interested in XML export to software"

Okay, so tell me explicitly why an XML export in this instance won't work for you? What will not translate over exactly?

[Jim Wiseman] "From someone who has "done all this stuff" on most levels you can think of. Hollywood and San Francisco east."

That's great, but it doesn't matter. There are plenty of people with credits who only have a superficial knowledge of how what they do works, and thus when they are expected to move outside of what they have always known, they flouder about.

So thanks for touting your own experience, but I am only interested in whether or not you can express your problem with XML timeline export in a coherent and explicit manner that shows an actual foundational knowledge of how NLEs operate outside of what you were trained on.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 5:21:43 pm

The Good Mr. Wiseman seems to have a system that WORKS for him. Why would he even consider changing? His situation appears to fall into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" category.

So why offer up needless fixes?

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 10:21:35 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "Why would he even consider changing?"

This is mostly an excuse used as to why someone will not speed up their workflow when something new comes along that would. Sure it works, but shouldn't the question always be, "But can it be done better?" Nothing like turning resting on your laurels into a virtue, eh?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 11:02:38 pm

Gary, you just beg for ad-hominem, but I am not falling for it.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 12:05:10 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Gary, you just beg for ad-hominem, but I am not falling for it."

Well, instead of an ad-hominem, could you perhaps point out where the "if it ain't broke, don't fix" it mentality doesn't usually mean resting on one's laurels? Or is ad-hominem all that you have?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 12:32:11 am

Just so you can understand, I am not moving anything to CC. Yes I know how to do an XML export and import. I find it a pain in this ass in most cases, and no substitute for native workflows because of the many parameters that do not transfer. A BandAid. I will be doing my editing on FCPX in the near future with legacy work on Media 100 and CS6 when I must. No, I don't care what you think of my capabilities. I know them. My associates know them. When I want a job at your organization you will get a copy of my resume, and a demonstration of my abilities. That will happen when Hell freezes over. Go pick on your wife, if you have one. Kick your dog if you don't.

Now I recall that Walter S. and David Lawrence were having an interesting conversation the last time i checked. Maybe we can get back to that?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 2:06:52 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Just so you can understand, I am not moving anything to CC."

I don't know where you got the idea that I was of any other impression. I guess you got lost?

[Jim Wiseman] ". Yes I know how to do an XML export and import."

Knowing how to export an XML, and knowing what it's limitations are and how it directly impacts any project you would do so with, are two very different things. Where did you get the idea that I was referencing your inability to select "XML Export" from a menu?

[Jim Wiseman] "No, I don't care what you think of my capabilities."

Well, I would be more willing to believe that if you didn't just spend an entire post trying to impress me via name dropping.

[Jim Wiseman] "Go pick on your wife, if you have one. Kick your dog if you don't."

So now you are asking me to engage in spousal and animal abuse. Keep it classy there, Jim.

[Jim Wiseman] "Now I recall that Walter S. and David Lawrence were having an interesting conversation the last time i checked. Maybe we can get back to that?"

Yes, I'm sorry I asked for specifics from you. How thoughtless of me. Please, continue to tell me how things are without being specific.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 2:41:02 am

Walter obviously knows more about XML than either of us. Re, my knowledge: Limited, but usable. Honestly not interested. Used it a few times and found it to be a kludge. A reason for me to stay away rather than embrace. I get my work done more than adequately. Wasn't that supposed to be one of the beauties of Creative Cloud? Effortless interchange between applications? Within one Adobe ecosystem? Why should I go through the tortures of XML translations when my system already does this for me? And I am not just talking Media 100. I do my work in stages with each application/hardware doing what it does best My only commonality in post is ProRes completed modules, move on to the next stage. Beats paying Adobe for life. If they can get the interchange act together without rental at a reasonable price, I'm all over it. Blackmagic may do it for them. Right now FCPX w ProRes looks like at least like a good bet for my future requirements.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Walter Soyka
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 12:03:15 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Wasn't that supposed to be one of the beauties of Creative Cloud? Effortless interchange between applications? Within one Adobe ecosystem? Why should I go through the tortures of XML translations when my system already does this for me?"

In fairness, we were discussing XML as a means for interchange between Premiere CC and other NLEs or as a means for interchange between Premiere CC and previous versions of Premiere.

Most NLEs are backward compatible (i.e., a newer version can read the output of an older version). Few NLEs are forward compatible (i.e., an older version can read the output of a newer version). It has been ever thus with FCP, Premiere, and Smoke (the only NLEs I can really speak to). I think MC is both backward and forward compatible, at least to an extent, and I don't know about M100.

Of course, interchange among concurrent-version Adobe apps is very smooth.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 4:40:43 pm

Media 100 is forward compatible. That has always been my experience, at least. Suite 1.x to 2.x. I've never jumped all the way back (20 plus years) to all the way forward 2.1.5 current, but I don't doubt it would do it. I still have the old version, second hardware, P6000 with daughter card, in a G4 Dual processor that will open everything earlier in any event.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 6:14:22 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on May 22, 2014 at 6:31:45 pm

Well Gary, it is because I am working on other things and would rather not waste my time on moving this stuff to another system when I have it working on 2012-2014 hardware, and software that is still compatible and currently updated for new OS's, that is paid for and not rented. The Media 100 still works perfectly well on my legacy material on a 2014 MacPro. I can update old projects in moments, not days. I can transcode clips to ProRes/FCPX if certain shots are needed in new projects. That will be my new software with a look at Resolve 11 when it comes out. You can give up on providing incentives or reasons for me to move to CC. It ain't gonna happen. No rentals that go "poof" for me. My experience has taught me that much wisdom.

I can assure you, my knowledge is beyond superficial. You were the one who brought up that tacky subject. I'm not questioning your experience, only your attitude. I would rather use my experience to move current projects forward, not create half-a***d versions of old ones in software I don't want to support, using procurement models I completely disagree with. I'll save my learning time for software that is not out to hold me hostage.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 10:19:26 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "I don't want to support, using procurement models I completely disagree with. I'll save my learning time for software that is not out to hold me hostage."

That is absolutely your choice to make. And I never intended to use your old Media 100 projects as a specific example. However, your utter lack of being able to explain why XML wouldn't work for you, definitely leaves me with the impression that you don't know why it won't, because you're not exactly sure what an XML export is.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the fence, FCPX editors are routinely using XML to get their edits out of the system to go to other finishing software. It apparently does work for them.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 22, 2014 at 11:00:01 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on May 22, 2014 at 11:04:50 pm

Gary, you are amazing. I installed 60 plus Avid and Media 100 systems as the only Avid dealer in Hawaii, and I don't know what an XML export/import is? Your baiting is getting a bit old. The fact that I choose to stay in native timelines shows good sense, not lack of it. I'd love to see you behind a GV switcher with eight cameras out and a crew of 30 for a Showtime special. Enough of this.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 12:02:56 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Gary, you are amazing. I installed 60 plus Avid and Media 100 systems as the only Avid dealer in Hawaii, and I don't know what an XML export/import is? Your baiting is getting a bit old. The fact that I choose to stay in native timelines shows good sense, not lack of it. I'd love to see you behind a GV switcher with eight cameras out and a crew of 30 for a Showtime special. Enough of this."

Now that you are finished dick-waving, can you be more explicit about why an XML export would not be good enough as a fallback for those on CC who may end up switching one day, or can you only do the above?

I keep asking for specifics, and keep getting back nonsense, can you at least fathom why I am suspicious? I figure you have heard about XML before, but do you know anything more? I swear, it's like pulling teeth to get any specifics around here.


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Walter Soyka
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 12:59:51 am

[Gary Huff] "can you be more explicit about why an XML export would not be good enough as a fallback for those on CC who may end up switching one day"

I can. XMEML is far from a perfect solution. It's sequence-level, not project-level. It was built for FCP7, not Premiere, and doesn't support all effects and transitions, or features like titles, merged clips, dynamic link.

XMEML is great for sequence interchange with other apps where these translations are necessarily imperfect due to differing feature sets, but it's not ideal for interchange among Premiere versions. XMEML would be only one component of a whole-project interchange workflow.

XMEML is probably one of the best options around for interchange (AAF bears consideration, too), but to Jim's point, he is able to choose a workflow where interchange isn't a concern.

Personally, I'd like to see Adobe take a leadership role here and develop and publish their own open XML standard for editorial project interchange. If project data were open and accessible, then Premiere would be easier to use in automated workflows, and the objection to CC's project lock-in could be met.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jim Wiseman
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 1:16:21 am

Thank you, Walter. I was with you all the way until "the objection to CC's project lock-in could be met." And this is where I would love to see some discussion begin. See the new topic I started hoping to elevate things a bit. You and David were getting at what I think is the crux of this, and I'd love to see a new thread that addresses it. Are we on our way back to dumb terminals with credit cards as gate-keepers?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Walter Soyka
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 24, 2014 at 11:34:56 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Thank you, Walter. I was with you all the way until "the objection to CC's project lock-in could be met." And this is where I would love to see some discussion begin."

I think the question of open data is a bit different than the question of personal computing.

I think that proprietary data formats impose lock-in as much as you think Creative Cloud does. With open data formats, I have the freedom to move my project to any other system. With closed data formats, I must continue to use the system I started with (whether I own it outright or subscribe to it).

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Rainer Schubert
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 1:17:03 am

[Walter Soyka] "...and develop and publish their own open XML standard for editorial project interchange. If project data were open and accessible"

Do you REALLY believe, this will ever happen?
Development of OPEN formats when customers are painful hard brought into this "cloud"?
It´s like a Jail without doors, or?
Like opening files without paying for...
Or some kind of Exit Strategy (Adobe doesn´t want to talk, nor even think about)


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Walter Soyka
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 24, 2014 at 11:23:52 am

[Rainer Schubert] "Do you REALLY believe, this will ever happen?
Development of OPEN formats when customers are painful hard brought into this "cloud"? It´s like a Jail without doors, or? Like opening files without paying for... Or some kind of Exit Strategy (Adobe doesn´t want to talk, nor even think about)"


Why not? Adobe has a very long history of publishing standards -- PostScript, Portable Document Format, and Open Type Format all being near and dear to you.

The Illustrator and Photoshop formats have been documented. Adobe administers the TIFF format. Adobe's XMP (format for metadata) is open, as are Adobe's DNG and CinemaDNG formats.

You seem to assume that CC customers are almost joining against their will. I don't think that's the case. Adobe doesn't need closed formats or coercion for Creative Cloud to be successful. They just need to keep making customers happy.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 2:03:48 am

[Walter Soyka] "I can. XMEML is far from a perfect solution. It's sequence-level, not project-level. It was built for FCP7, not Premiere, and doesn't support all effects and transitions, or features like titles, merged clips, dynamic link."

Thanks for the explicit definition that others were unwilling or, more likely, unable to put out.

But I wonder how many of these projects actually make use of advanced stuff. Thinks like effects I understand (I mean, what's the worth of making sure that your XML settings for, say, Fast Color Correct can translate to FCPX's color board?). Multicam sequences are surely problematic as well, though a bit easier to overcome ultimately if you concentrate on preserving the current edit as opposed to trying to keep the entire multicam process intact.

But even the basic edit, the meat of the piece as it were, is still where most of the work comes through, isn't it? And if you generate titles via AE and render out to an alpha-channel intermediate that absolves you from Dynamic Link, an XML is even better for you.

Still, for myself, going back to old projects is not something I do, and still requires a current hourly fee no matter how old it is. If I wasn't current on CC, a single month for Premiere is not going to bankrupt me, it's simply a fee I would roll into the edit. After all, I am already paying to keep the storage up and running to save that old project on anyhow.


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Chris Pettit
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 20, 2014 at 8:27:12 pm
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on May 20, 2014 at 8:31:04 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] " if it is indeed true that the cost is going to triple, then Adobe is monumentally short-sighted. By providing the tools to train future artists and designers, they are grooming a future league of professionals who will use the tools they've learned on."

I'm not in the education sector, but I've talked to a number of people in the know, and heard that one of the biggest problems with CC is actually budget cycles rather than just cost. A lot of schools and universities create outlays periodically (every few years for example) for things like software, and they are very resistant to perpetual costs, it simply doesn't fit in to how they allocate budgets.

But no hard numbers on how many schools this is true for.


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Michael Hendrix
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 21, 2014 at 12:39:02 am

See, your post Chris, is legit. I know some university departments may get money one year, may not get that money for the next few years. This is a legitimate concern.

But for the author to be concerned about the cost to the student, crazy. Give the kids and parents a break, cut tuition costs. Do something to keep kids from entering their careers swimming in massive debt.



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Chris Pettit
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 21, 2014 at 1:08:44 am

[Michael Hendrix] "Give the kids and parents a break, cut tuition costs. Do something to keep kids from entering their careers swimming in massive debt."

You wont get argument from me on that front Michael, I have lots of issues with colleges and universities regarding tution ( I have 3 kids heading toward college - terrified of cost by the time they get there).

But discussions about what is wrong with higher education I suspect are for a different forum. The question at hand is how institutions are going to handle the whirlwind set of issues forced on to them by Adobe's move to mandatory subscriptions. Budgeting is simply just the first issue.

Among other issues these schools must confront is the MORAL issue of what to recommend to their students as they move forward in their careers and their lives. An example:

"If a designer ever stops paying the monthly fee to Adobe for whatever reason, after a 30 day grace period they will not be able to open or edit any previously created work. Can you imagine having a lifetime’s worth of work that you can no longer access once you stop paying? Software should not be priced as if it were cable television."


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Gary Huff
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 21, 2014 at 2:31:18 pm

[Chris Pettit] "Among other issues these schools must confront is the MORAL issue of what to recommend to their students as they move forward in their careers and their lives. An example:"

Moral issue? Gag me.


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David Mathis
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 21, 2014 at 2:33:15 pm

Chris, your post is spot on and I agree with you completely. I could see Avid as a recommendation, as far as I know they offer educational pricing and it will be more affordable over the long term. Not to mention, should someone decide to exit out they keep the software. Apple might be another alternative. There are options out there.

The model that Adobe has is just too expensive over the long term, both for the university and for the student. Last thing a college graduate needs is another monthly expense when they are facing a mountain of student loan debt. How will they be able to benefit from the subscription only model? What about the job market? Right now unemployment is too high, especially among younger people.

My recommendation for all is to at least look into Final Cut Pro X, Motion, Compressor and some tools that add function along functionality to the workflow. Many of those tools are not expensive and budget should allow for them easily. Despite the surprise of X in its initial launch, it has really grown on me as a very good alternative. Vegas and Avid are other tools I would recommend.

I have nothing against a subscription model as long as it is not the only option. Avid has it right and so does Red Giant Universe, simple, not to mention fair. Everyone comes out a winner.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 12:26:16 pm

[Chris Pettit] "I'm not in the education sector, but I've talked to a number of people in the know, and heard that one of the biggest problems with CC is actually budget cycles rather than just cost. A lot of schools and universities create outlays periodically (every few years for example) for things like software, and they are very resistant to perpetual costs, it simply doesn't fit in to how they allocate budgets. "

This is the prefect example of:

It's not about the money, but it's about the money.


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Chris Pettit
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 23, 2014 at 2:51:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's not about the money, but it's about the money."

No, I think the people who I spoke to would tell you it's about the process. Money is a different discussion.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 24, 2014 at 1:49:44 am

[Chris Pettit] "No, I think the people who I spoke to would tell you it's about the process."

It's not about spending the money, it's about when the money is spent.


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stan welks
Re: universities pov for students. dont get into cc.
on May 24, 2014 at 3:49:49 pm

I work at a community college and our goals are to provide students with skills and knowledge to get internships/jobs and to transfer to 4-yr universities. There are some alternatives to CC out there, however, the problem arises when employers are looking to hire with specific skills in Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects, etc.

We will not be serving our students by training them in anything else. With that said, I am not a fan of the CC subscription model, we are still on CS6 though will have to transition to CC soon to continue being relevant for our students.



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