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Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)

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Franz Bieberkopf
Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 17, 2014 at 3:49:37 pm

Reuters is reporting that Customers can apply to get compensation for the outage, which company spokeswoman Vanessa Rios said lasted about 24 hours and was due to a database software failure. "We take this matter seriously and compensation will be considered on a case-by-case basis," she said via email.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/16/us-adobe-systems-creativecloud-id...

Franz.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 17, 2014 at 3:50:20 pm
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on May 17, 2014 at 3:51:00 pm

A survey of some affected users - while it's true that many took the opportunity for rhetoric on the issue, it's surprising to me that there's an undercurrent in this forum that no one was affected, or that somehow the impact on affected users was negligible.

Franz.


I have an editing final due today and can't even open premiere pro. What am I suppose to do now?
User: Drew Durnil
What do i tell my clients regarding their deadlines today? This is a real problem!
User: kerry smith
still unable to sign in, this is a bummer.
User: Daryl Perez
https://twitter.com/creativecloud/status/467042949105070080


Have you considered the actual impact this has had on the creative community? I had 22 users unable to work!!!
User: Alan Edwards
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/16/adobe_outage_database_maintenance/


I bought Adobe software yesterday and got a nice email with a download link to a page that has, for the last 24 hours, been unavailable.
User: daqman
http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/05/15/problem.traced.back.to.adobe.id.syst...


Several [Creative Cloud installations] in our office have been down for over 10 hours here. Seems to be no way to access [apps], trying to open them results in the login screen, can’t see a way around it.
User: Rikki_B
Bad time to rely on Typekit for an ad, At first I thought it was just me but my coworkers can’t login either.
User: Jose Ariel Henriquez
FormsCentral is still not working!! We need an ETA for our clients!!
User: Claire Phillippi
I try to open Muse – tells me it needs more info – then ID and PW do not work
User: Bill Dussinger
Since I can’t sign in, it won’t let me use my photoshop right now
User: Linda Watson Nkosi
http://www.macuser.co.uk/9015-adobe-creative-cloud-outage-leaves-adobe-user...


I had an issue with fonts not being available with the project I was working on. If creative cloud is down you loose your local fonts from typekit.
User: jermh
http://www.reddit.com/r/creativecloud/comments/25p5su/creative_cloud_down_f...


It hit me. I had been running Muse pretty much all day, had a couple minor glitches so I quit and tried to restart and was asked to sign in. Of course the sign in didn't work.
[…]
You didn't have to log out to get locked out. I merely quit an application (Muse) and when I restarted it moments later it asked me to sign in. …I never log out either.

User: dlstudios
I did have a deadline. And yes, I'm locked out of some critical functions. Apparently my authorization cycle ended at an inopportune time.
[…]
We shut everything down for the night and, when we fired everything up this morning, CC wouldn't login and some programs started started saying our subscription had expired.

User: SinclairZX81
This outage had real monetary effects on our company. It is inexcusable.
User CUclimber
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/05/outage-of-adobe-creat...


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 17, 2014 at 4:28:44 pm

The fact that dobe is considering compensation is not withstanding to the contrarions in this forum, adobe apologist who always want to say somthing just because. They accuse others of what they themselves commit.


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 17, 2014 at 8:18:26 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "They accuse others of what they themselves commit."

Which is?


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david aretsky
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 18, 2014 at 8:39:54 pm

Funny, my CS6 still worked.
Too Bad for CC users.
That is why I refuse to rent.

dangerd


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 19, 2014 at 2:51:36 am

[david aretsky] "Funny, my CS6 still worked. Too Bad for CC users."

My CC still worked too.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 19, 2014 at 3:14:34 am

If even 5% didn't work, how much is that in lost revenue? Willing to sign that check, Gary?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 19, 2014 at 4:09:23 am

[Jim Wiseman] "If even 5% didn't work, how much is that in lost revenue? Willing to sign that check, Gary?"

Jim, how much money (just in general) have companies paid out to you for their software/hardware that went down at a critical point in your work? Or do you have 100% uptime with everything you use?


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 19, 2014 at 5:16:21 am

[Gary Huff] "My CC still worked too."

Translated version:

"It didn't affect me, therefore the problem doesn't exist."

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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 19, 2014 at 1:05:18 pm

[David Lawrence] "Translated version: "It didn't affect me, therefore the problem doesn't exist.""

Translated version: "Gee, I don't understand that he's saying that just because you were on CC doesn't mean you had any issues. But that's too nuanced for me, so I'll just build a nice strawman to try to make him look foolish!"


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Steve Connor
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 19, 2014 at 1:13:48 pm



Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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Steve Connor
Re: Adobe Outage - Affected Users
on May 19, 2014 at 8:04:09 am

[Gary Huff] "[david aretsky] "Funny, my CS6 still worked. Too Bad for CC users."

My CC still worked too.
"


Great, so did mine, therefore there wasn't a problem, unless of course you were using any of Adobe's services that are actually IN the cloud, then there appears to have been quite a few issues.

Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 1:34:40 pm

It's such a shame that across the last few threads specifically (and perhaps this entire forum in general), that there's so little room for any non-binary opinion or analysis. I've got what I consider to be a reasonable nuanced opinion on CC, but that doesn't fit the classification scheme here, where you must be either blindly for or totally against.

Nonetheless, against my better judgment, I'll try here again.

It's intellectually dishonest to pretend that a 24-hour outage isn't a big deal for a developer looking to be a service provider. Outages are bad news. Long outages are worse. Although we focus on the desktop apps here, the services failed during the outage, too.

It's equally intellectually dishonest to refuse to acknowledge that the CC desktop apps continued working as designed through the outage for what seems to be all but a few users. The apps remaining activated through the outage as intended is good news.

With respect to the desktop apps, making this a CS6-vs-CC comparison oversimplifies and misses something important: this outage could just as easily have happened with CS6 if it had been the serial number authorization servers that went down for a day, and then it would have been a handful of perpetual license holders who would have been locked out of their products. Outside of installation, it is not the normal state for the CC desktop apps to require immediate authorization during use any more than it is for CS6, which is why so many CC users didn't even notice the outage.

(Franz, as per our other thread, I am not seeking to blame any victims here, but rather put the failure mode in context.)

Have at it, lads.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 2:27:57 pm
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on May 19, 2014 at 2:34:21 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Outside of installation, it is not the normal state for the CC desktop apps to require immediate authorization during use any more than it is for CS6, which is why so many CC users didn't even notice the outage."

Walter,

It seems a bit more than this - from what I have read, application lock-out affected users whose monthly renewal date fell within the outage.

(That's still a minority of users, but potentially as many as 1/30 of the install base, assuming approximately equal distribution of user renewals over a month. Was it ~50,000 users? It seems there would have been more reports if that were the case. But maybe. What I want to emphasize here though is that it seems to have been "normal" users.)

From what I can tell, those affected by application lockout were potentially:
- those signed out
- those attempting to install for the first time
- those whose monthly renewal date fell on the outage

Those affected may have had their problems mitigated by trial software and "bonus" launches. (Though I did read one account where Adobe insisted users wait instead of using "trial" mode.) Finally, as I posted elsewhere, enterprise users were not affected, except for cloud services.

And further, all cloud services (for everyone, I think) were affected for some portion of the 24 hours. That means FormsCentral, fonts, the new settings sync, etc.

But all this is simply me cobbling together what I can from reading - there's been no real statement from Adobe on who was affected or how.

I think it's also important to note (and this was in Aindreas' link) that application lock-out is something Adobe said couldn't happen ("90 days", etc. etc. etc.). It happened.


Franz.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 2:51:53 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I think it's also important to note (and this was in Aindreas' link) that application lock-out is something Adobe said couldn't happen ("90 days", etc. etc. etc.). It happened."

I'm having trouble finding that link. Anyone else? May just be on my end


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 3:00:54 pm

[Chris Pettit] "I'm having trouble finding that link."

Adobe had categorically assured users and journalists, when replacing Creative Suite with Creative Cloud in May 2013, that apps only needed to check in with the server every 30 days, telling MacUser in a written reply that products would continue to work for 99 days in the absence of a server connection.

http://www.macuser.co.uk/9015-adobe-creative-cloud-outage-leaves-adobe-user...

Note the "System Status" graphic at the top indicating that cloud services and file access was affected for all users.

Franz.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 3:05:21 pm
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on May 19, 2014 at 3:05:37 pm

Thanks Franz

No, I meant Aindreas's post here at the Cow. It seems to no longer be there


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 3:37:37 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "It seems a bit more than this - from what I have read, application lock-out affected users whose monthly renewal date fell within the outage."

This situation is difficult to understand when everything is hearsay, and it's complicated about the high degree of ongoing emotion about the licensing change.

I would like to hear more about this scenario -- this should not happen and I'd be curious to hear if there were any other factors contributing to the failures for affected users, and if so, what they were.

If it were as simple as not being able to connect for authentication on renewal day, I would have thought this would have been a case specifically tested during development. Failing that, I would have thought it would have occurred in the wild before the outage. Either way, I would have thought that if it were a problem, it would already have been addressed. If it has not been, I certainly hope that it would be addressed now.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 4:02:35 pm

[Walter Soyka] "This situation is difficult to understand when everything is hearsay, ... I would like to hear more about this scenario ... I'd be curious to hear if there were any other factors contributing to the failures for affected users, and if so, what they were."

Walter,

I think this underscores the lack of communication on the part of Adobe.

Franz.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 4:30:39 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I think this underscores the lack of communication on the part of Adobe."

All I've seen is this, and it's pretty light on detail:
http://blogs.adobe.com/adobecare/2014/05/15/recent-service-outage/

I can understand that a proper post mortem takes time (what failed on each individual's system? why did it fail? was the failure related to the outage?) and I don't think that knee-jerk communication would help. I do hope that any problems here are identified and announced in due course, and I expect that any problems found will be fixed in future releases.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 6:04:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "and I don't think that knee-jerk communication would help."

But they want knee-jerk communication so that when the inevitable misinformation comes out, they can then switch gears back to the "Adobe lied" comments.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 6:17:53 pm

[Gary Huff] "But they want knee-jerk communication ..."

[Gary Huff] "They? Like a group of people all at once? An official press release? Or simply a post somewhere by a single individual?"

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/7639


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 6:29:12 pm

You're right. You, Franz Bieberkopf, would probably like some kneejerk Adobe communication so that when they mess up and say something incorrect, you can start typing "Adobe lied!!!"


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 8:36:08 pm

[Gary Huff] "You're right. You, Franz Bieberkopf, would probably like some kneejerk Adobe communication so that when they mess up and say something incorrect, you can start typing "Adobe lied!!!""

Gary,

Which error of argument would you classify this under?

Or is the point to provoke by any means?

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 8:38:36 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Which error of argument would you classify this under?"

I would classify it under the same error you made when you combined two statements that were completely unrelated as an attempt to make a point.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 8:43:41 pm

[Gary Huff] "I would classify it under the same error you made ..."

Gary,

How do you suggest improving this thread?

Franz.


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Steve Connor
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:30:43 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Gary,

How do you suggest improving this thread?

Franz."


By people only criticising Adobe when they are 100% certain of the facts, with no rushing to judgement based on internet speculation and heresay and then making sure they use the correct analogies whilst doing it? :)

Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:33:53 pm

[Steve Connor] "By people only criticising Adobe when they are 100% certain of the facts, with no rushing to judgement based on internet speculation and heresay and then making sure they use the correct analogies whilst doing it? :)"

But where's the fun in that? ;)

_______________________
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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:51:32 pm

[Steve Connor] "
By people only criticising Adobe when they are 100% certain of the facts, with no rushing to judgement based on internet speculation and heresay and then making sure they use the correct analogies whilst doing it? :)"


Well, apparently Franz gets bent-out-of-shape when its done to him.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 12:03:46 am

[Gary Huff] "Well, apparently Franz gets bent-out-of-shape when its done to him."

Gary,

I'm not sure what has given you such an impression, but I am not insulted, nor angry, nor otherwise "bent out of shape" by your posts.

Nor am I certain of what has been "done" to me.

But again, I'll ask what you think can be done to improve the thread.

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 12:27:48 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "But again, I'll ask what you think can be done to improve the thread."

Not sure why that matters any more than a hill of beans. Not looking to improve anything.


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David Mathis
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 6:25:12 pm

I would like to know what happened, why it did happen and what measures are in place to make sure it does not occur again. I also feel that releasing a statement on a premature basis is not good either. Would rather wait a few days for accurate information. My two cents, whatever it is worth. I do not have CC at present, due to the cost over the long term, a business decision and nothing more.


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 6:35:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Outside of installation, it is not the normal state for the CC desktop apps to require immediate authorization during use any more than it is for CS6, which is why so many CC users didn't even notice the outage."

Walter, if you are logged out of CC do the desktop applications still run?

_______________________
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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 6:53:53 pm

[David Lawrence] "Walter, if you are logged out of CC do the desktop applications still run?"

No, you must be signed in or running the trial to use the desktop apps.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 8:48:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "No, you must be signed in or running the trial to use the desktop apps."

That, in a nutshell is why the current CC licensing model is inherently problematic.

If you must be logged into Adobe to run applications that live on your personal computer's hard drive, you no longer control your personal computer. Adobe does. And they can revoke your ability to run the software you've paid for at any time for any reason.

This is totally different then a one-time authorization transaction that takes place during typical software installation.

Adobe CC requires explicit permission to run from Adobe every time it's launched.

Don't be confused by the fact that there's a "trial mode" or "grace period" between server pings to check if you've paid your bill. It's irrelevant to the bigger picture.

The problem is you must be logged into Adobe and have their permission every time you want to run the software on your computer.

Last week's outage made crystal clear the inherent risk giving this control to a single company and "cloud computing" in general.

The current CC licensing model is the antithesis of personal computing. This is why so many of us find it completely unacceptable and want it to change.

_______________________
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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:06:53 pm

David, can you run CS6 after you deactivate it? Can you run CS6 on new hardware without permission from Adobe?

I think your issue of control transcends subscription. How is the DRM in subscription-based CC different than the DRM in perpetually-licensed CS6?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:15:27 pm

[David Lawrence] "Adobe CC requires explicit permission to run from Adobe every time it's launched."

David,

I don't think this is true.

You can effectively "sign in" to Adobe on two systems with CC. You remain signed in until you "sign out".

However, it seems that (from what we gather via reports during the outage) you can also be accidentally "signed out" during the monthly check that CC does re: subscription if CC doesn't get the correct response from Adobe. From some reports, this is what happened - if your subscription monthly renewal date fell during the outage, you may have been signed out by the software and unable to launch.

[Walter Soyka] "How is the DRM in subscription-based CC different than the DRM in perpetually-licensed CS6?"

Walter,

If it's checking monthly, and you have no way to force or override that check (in the sense that a re-install from disc does) then there are certainly differences in implementation.

I think the activation management on CC is quite poor - there are no management tools you can access to confirm, move, or otherwise check and control your activations.

Franz.


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:23:20 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "You can effectively "sign in" to Adobe on two systems with CC. You remain signed in until you "sign out"."

Franz, the point is that you must be "signed in".

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:41:00 pm

[David Lawrence] "Franz, the point is that you must be "signed in"."

David,

I think it's mostly semantic at this point - though the fact they've chosen the nomenclature of "sign in" sort of points in a certain direction.

They've called authorization "signing in". But I'm pretty sure that the software does not check every time it is launched. It only checks once per month.

So while it is true that this "permission" is granted from Adobe once per month, it is not true that this "permission" is checked every time it is launched - except in the same way that perpetual license permission is checked every time the software is launched. (I'd argue that is an important distinction in implementation, but I don't think it is true to say it requires Adobe permission on every launch.)

This is my understanding.

Franz.


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 10:02:53 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "They've called authorization "signing in". But I'm pretty sure that the software does not check every time it is launched. It only checks once per month."

[Franz Bieberkopf] "So while it is true that this "permission" is granted from Adobe once per month, it is not true that this "permission" is checked every time it is launched - except in the same way that perpetual license permission is checked every time the software is launched. (I'd argue that is an important distinction in implementation, but I don't think it is true to say it requires Adobe permission on every launch.)"

Franz, while it's true that the software checks for payment once per month, my understanding is that it will only run if the user is logged into Adobe. If the user is logged out, the software will not run.

This is a critical distinction.

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 11:58:38 pm

[David Lawrence] "... it will only run if the user is logged into Adobe. If the user is logged out, the software will not run"

David,

I'm not sure if you understood, but I was trying to say that functionally "logging out" in CC is the same as "deactivating" in CS. If you deactivate your CS, the software will not run. If you are logged out of CC, the software will not run. Right now the two are functionally equivalent - with the caveat that CC checks once per month, while a CS perpetual license checks on installation and activation (a bit caveat).

Franz.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 12:11:21 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I'm not sure if you understood, but I was trying to say that functionally "logging out" in CC is the same as "deactivating" in CS. If you deactivate your CS, the software will not run. If you are logged out of CC, the software will not run. Right now the two are functionally equivalent - with the caveat that CC checks once per month, while a CS perpetual license checks on installation and activation (a bit caveat)."

This is the point I'm trying to make, too (though I think that the checks require a minimum of once per month but may be more often).

All Adobe software, CS and CC, performs a check to see if it's authorized to run. CS checks a local license, CC checks some combination of local and network licenses. In either case, failure to locate a valid license results in failure to run.

Note that with CS, there are ways outside of your control that the software can become deactivated and require reauthentication -- for example, re-installation, hardware failure/replacement, or a licensing system failure (which has happened, Google "CS6 reverts to trial" for more.)

While I concede that there are differences between how CS and CC authorize, it strikes me as inconsistent to have a problem with one DRM implementation and not the other.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 12:37:41 am
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 20, 2014 at 12:40:09 am

[Walter Soyka] "While I concede that there are differences between how CS and CC authorize, it strikes me as inconsistent to have a problem with one DRM implementation and not the other."

Signing Out (requiring opening an app, clicking Help and then on Sign Out...so not exactly easy to do by accident) opens a dialogue box that displays all the apps that will be deauthorized when you sign out. The dialogue box states that it will allow you to use your subscription on another machine when you do so (for instance, if you are at the two install limit and want to switch to another machine).

Frankly, that's rather handy if you need to activate a third machine temporarily. It does make things go offline, and I would be willing to bet it was something a little obscure that triggered this for some people who had the misfortune of having this problem happen on a particular day, but surely this will get taken care of.

Nothing in our world of technology is 100% uptime, so if someone has a story of such a software or service, or an anecdote about getting paid back by the company when something else went down for the count (such as Dropbox for instance), I'd be interested to hear it.

Otherwise, if you did encounter something less than 100% uptime, and continue to use that product or other products from the same company, would that not be a double standard?

Here's an anecdote: I was on a production where the Red Rocket just completely died. Clearly an issue with no 100% uptime, it just bit the dust. This cost the production money because over the overtime incurred to get deliverables ready to mail off to the post house because the DIT station was down until a replacement Rocket arrived. Do you think Red would ever pay them that money? Should they have? Would that ever happen in the real world?


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 2:03:40 am
Last Edited By David Lawrence on May 20, 2014 at 2:12:46 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] " was trying to say that functionally "logging out" in CC is the same as "deactivating" in CS. If you deactivate your CS, the software will not run."

[Walter Soyka] "This is the point I'm trying to make, too (though I think that the checks require a minimum of once per month but may be more often).

All Adobe software, CS and CC, performs a check to see if it's authorized to run. CS checks a local license, CC checks some combination of local and network licenses. In either case, failure to locate a valid license results in failure to run."


Franz and Walter,

I disagree with the notion that logging in and out from Adobe is the same as typical software authorization. Perhaps it's similar in function, but it does not carry the same intent.

How often do either of you de/re-authorize your core production applications? Once a month?

Typical software authorization is generally a rare transaction. Once licensing terms are confirmed, the transaction never has to happen again unless the user requests a change. The user is free to run the software as they wish with no further interaction with the developer.

Adobe's CC login requirement is just the opposite. The user must have Adobe's permission (via login) every time they run the software. This fundamentally changes the power relationship between user and Adobe.

The login requirement means Adobe can revoke privileges at any time for any reason - it could be a server glitch like last week, it could be lack of payment, it could be violation of terms of service. The bottom line is with the CC licensing model, the user no longer controls what runs on their personal computer.

[Walter Soyka] "While I concede that there are differences between how CS and CC authorize, it strikes me as inconsistent to have a problem with one DRM implementation and not the other."

I personally believe DRM software is defective by design, however I'm willing to accept it when it's applied in a way that respects me as a customer.

Adobe's DRM is perhaps one of the most customer-hostile schemes I've ever seen in my 25+ years in tech. It exists not to prevent piracy, but to turn customers into recurring revenue generators.

We've had many conversations and seen many examples of win-win subscription/perpetual scenarios. Adobe's refusal to discuss these possibilities speaks volumes to their intent and regard for their customers.

It's a shame really. Because all it would take is a flip of a switch and we could close this forum and talk about the great software instead.

_______________________
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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 2:13:55 am
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 20, 2014 at 2:16:38 am

[David Lawrence] "How often do either of you de/re-authorize your core production applications? Once a month?"

How often do you think someone would log out? It makes no sense to unless you are trying to get over that 2 application limit. I haven't signed out once in nearly a year. What possible purpose does that serve to logout over deauthorization?

[David Lawrence] "The login requirement means Adobe can revoke privileges at any time for any reason - it could be a server glitch like last week,"

But it's no different then suddenly having your CS4-CS6 install suddenly deauthorized, like others have. And, again, not everyone had their CC apps go down, like myself and others have mentioned. It was a perfect storm of conditions that we don't fully grasp yet, so why are you making it the crux of your argument?


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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 2:32:15 am

[David Lawrence] "I personally believe DRM software is defective by design, however I'm willing to accept it when it's applied in a way that respects me as a customer.

Adobe's DRM is perhaps one of the most customer-hostile schemes I've ever seen in my 25+ years in tech. It exists not to prevent piracy, but to turn customers into recurring revenue generators.

We've had many conversations and seen many examples of win-win subscription/perpetual scenarios. Adobe's refusal to discuss these possibilities speaks volumes to their intent and regard for their customers.

It's a shame really. Because all it would take is a flip of a switch and we could close this forum and talk about the great software instead."


Pure, unadulterated truth.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 2:44:55 am

[David Lawrence] " This fundamentally changes the power relationship between user and Adobe."

David,

I agree in substance to what you've said above, and I think the shift in terminology (to "log in") is significant.

[David Lawrence] " The user must have Adobe's permission (via login) every time they run the software."

This is true in the same way it is true via "activation".

Franz.


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:22:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think your issue of control transcends subscription. How is the DRM in subscription-based CC different than the DRM in perpetually-licensed CS6?"

Simple. In CS6, authorization is a one-time handshake that happens at install. After the handshake, Adobe and I part ways and I'm free to use the software on my personal computer anytime I want without any further interaction with Adobe.

With CC, I must have Adobe's explicit permission every time I want to run the software.

This is rather unprecedented in the software industry at this level. And inherently risky by design.

Furthermore, it's disingenuous. Unlike true Adobe cloud services like Typekit or Forms Central, the application suite is standard CS desktop applications with optional online services that simply use "the cloud" for DRM.

Imagine if there were a 24hour outage on all Microsoft Office applications during a business day. There's a reason even Microsoft is treading lightly on SAAS.

_______________________
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Rainer Schubert
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 19, 2014 at 11:58:14 pm

Once (and only once) I activated CS on the PC/MAC I can disconnect the Machine from the Web.
Or forbid any connection to Adobe servers.
I can assure, that Adobe has NO further control about/influence on my hardware.
(Read Adobes CC EULA to get an imagination of what Adobe is allowed to)
Very important for me because of some safety aspects.
I don´t need any further "legitimation" from Adobe to run the Apps.
That´s a big difference.
I think, comparing with a deactivated CS license is some kind of misleading.
There regularly is no need to deactivate CS.


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 12:28:43 am

[Rainer Schubert] "Or forbid any connection to Adobe servers."

Yes, a typical scenario involving the pirated copies.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 1:52:25 pm
Last Edited By Rainer Schubert on May 20, 2014 at 2:14:32 pm

In my case not. Never pirated anything - and price isn´t my concern at all.
I have to run a offline machine to guarantee a safe place for some very security relevant files.
(Business data & strategy items of a very big client / Industrial Products under development. I also must transport these files on a stick/HD - not delivered via internet)
Simply impossible with CC.
Think, you hit every argument with a hammer.
You don´t have the problem. You were not influenced by the outage. You can´t imagine why someone needs full access to old files.
Bam - the problem doesn´t exist.


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 2:47:45 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "Bam - the problem doesn´t exist."

I never said the problem doesn't exist. You keep phrasing it in a way that makes it sound like everyone had a problem. So if you want to stop hearing me talk about how it wasn't a problem for me, then stop trying to act like everyone did.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 2:57:34 pm

[Gary Huff] "You keep phrasing it in a way that makes it sound like everyone had a problem"

Which problem? Where? Post?


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david aretsky
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 10:34:46 pm

The difference is that I do not have to be logged in to Adobe EVERY time I use my software. Tell me, when was the last time you can recall ANY perpetual license software that was effectively turned off by the licensing company?? I would have to deactivate the software myself on my own computer. Also Adobe would have to show that I broke my licensing agreement with them in order to "turn me off", otherwise I could sue the hell out of them unlike CC subscribers "suckers" who can be turned off at anytime. I have no problem with people CHOOSING to RENT software but it should be a choice, as it was in the past not forced upon you. I for one will not be giving any more money to Adobe unless they offer a perpetual license again.

dangerd


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 11:42:57 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 20, 2014 at 11:44:33 pm

[david aretsky] "The difference is that I do not have to be logged in to Adobe EVERY time I use my software."

That's not a difference. Why would you ever "log out"? You do have to be authorized every time you open your CS copy. That would be like saying that you you deauthorize on a regular basis.

Do you know how the login system works on CC? Have you ever used it?

[david aretsky] "otherwise I could sue the hell out of them unlike CC subscribers "suckers" who can be turned off at anytime."

Except you actually wouldn't sue, because you're just an "Internet tough guy". How much money have you gotten when a piece of gear goes down or some other software has bugs in it that cost you time? Or do you have 100% uptime with everything?


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 21, 2014 at 9:23:25 am

[Gary Huff] "You do have to be authorized every time you open your CS copy"

Nope. I have to activate only ONCE - not every time I open the CS copy.
That´s the authorization.
Since then the Application will run without any further need of connecting adobe.
They try to do so, but it´s not necessary.

And with CS Adobe is not allowed to "kill" your license (if you are a legal owner, and did not abuse your license - installing on many PCs for example).
With CC (regarding to their new EULA) there are many circumstances (critical content, infringe of copyright,...), where they are allowed to (& alowed to search for those circumstances!).


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 21, 2014 at 2:11:42 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "And with CS Adobe is not allowed to "kill" your license (if you are a legal owner, and did not abuse your license - installing on many PCs for example)."

Where do you get that idea? People have had their installations killed before (restored ultimately, but killed, yes).


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 21, 2014 at 2:28:17 pm

Don´t know, if I understood right - not a native speaker.
With CC Adobe is allowed to stop your license, when they come to the conclusion, you work on critical content (in their eyes), infringe copyrights and so on.
Regarding to their EULA, they can prove your (cloud-) content if you do so or not.
(And if I understand the - hard to read - stuff right, they even don´t have to justify for)
With CS you can do what ever you want to - no way for Adobe, to stop your license from working.
I´m not talking about hardware failures or other technical aspects here (In case of that I always have an backup-machine).
That´s the same with CS and CC.


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 21, 2014 at 4:29:43 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "With CC Adobe is allowed to stop your license, when they come to the conclusion, you work on critical content (in their eyes), infringe copyrights and so on."

I have no heard this at all. If you're going to claim that Adobe will lock you out of their system for stuff unrelated to not paying your monthly subscription, you're going to have to link to something legitimate, and definitely no surmising that it could possible happen by someone unaffiliated with anything.

[Rainer Schubert] "With CS you can do what ever you want to - no way for Adobe, to stop your license from working."

Yes they can. It has happened in the past. Unless you block your activation servers. But how many people do that? Except for the pirates of course.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 21, 2014 at 8:26:58 pm

[Gary Huff] "you're going to have to link to something legitimate"

Adobes CC Creative EULA is very heavy stuff. I think it belongs to chapter 9, 8 or 6 - not quite sure & I haven´t the time to read again.
I also read something about, but I can´t find that link - it´s a while back.
But regarding to this EULA read this (carefully):
http://macperformanceguide.com/blog/2013/20130508_1a-Adobe-legal-agreement....
(Chapter " And “no reason” " touches the aspects above)


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 1:07:10 am

[David Lawrence] "The current CC licensing model is the antithesis of personal computing."

David, I'd like to highlight this comment. I find it very thought-provoking.

This could start the sort of conversation I had hoped could grow out of this forum, much like all the interesting conversations that came out of the FCPX or Not forum. More to come on this from me in the next couple days after I've had a chance to give it a good think. In the meantime, I hope some others may join the conversation.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 1:31:23 am

[Walter Soyka] "David, I'd like to highlight this comment. I find it very thought-provoking.

This could start the sort of conversation I had hoped could grow out of this forum, much like all the interesting conversations that came out of the FCPX or Not forum. More to come on this from me in the next couple days after I've had a chance to give it a good think."


Thank you Walter, that is my hope too. I look forward to your thoughts.

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David Lawrence
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Jim Wiseman
Re: Adobe Outage - Adobe Offers Compensation (Maybe)
on May 20, 2014 at 4:14:01 am

I second that…

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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