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Morten Ranmar
CC updates
on Apr 2, 2014 at 6:39:24 pm

Nice new updates coming: http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/revealing-the-next-wave-of-innovation-...

- No Parking Production -

Adobe CC, 3 x MacPro, 3 x MbP, Ethernet File Server w. Areca ThunderRaid 8.... and FCPX on trial


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walter biscardi
Re: CC updates
on Apr 2, 2014 at 8:42:25 pm

REALLY nice new updates to what came out last year. I love that there are a lot of little things like the Reverse Match Frame. It's just little things like that, coupled with everything that came out in the past 12 months that have taken this product so far beyond where CS6 was.

Add to that, almost 2 million current Creative Cloud users and the announcement today from Meagan that David Fincher's "Gone Girl" is being cut on Adobe Premiere Pro and it's looking like another good year for the Adobe team.

http://instagram.com/p/mSsnUWtgUX/

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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Todd Kopriva
Re: CC updates
on Apr 2, 2014 at 9:11:27 pm

What I'm happiest with is that this is a solid workflow update, without the need to focus on a lot of glitzy bells and whistles to get people's attention to drive another upgrade outlay. Instead, we can just focus on fixing pain points, responding to request from existing users, etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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walter biscardi
Re: CC updates
on Apr 2, 2014 at 11:06:25 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "What I'm happiest with is that this is a solid workflow update, without the need to focus on a lot of glitzy bells and whistles to get people's attention to drive another upgrade outlay. Instead, we can just focus on fixing pain points, responding to request from existing users, etc."

THAT is the most awesome part of the entire Creative Cloud experience for us end users. Solid tool, solid workflow. See you in a few days!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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David Smith
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 12:26:54 am

The discontinuing of perpetual licenses was just too high a price. These updates will never even reach the sizable portion of Adobe's customers they abandoned with the switch to forced subscription. Frankly, I would never infect my project files with new features that could only be opened or utilized by paying a monthly fee.

Adobe hasn't found the balance yet between those who want to rent their software and those who want to purchase it (and at the moment, it doesn't look like they care to find the balance).


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walter biscardi
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 3:48:10 am

[David Smith] "Adobe hasn't found the balance yet between those who want to rent their software and those who want to purchase it (and at the moment, it doesn't look like they care to find the balance)."

Adobe made their decision. If you want to own software moving forward, you can look to Avid, Apple and Autodesk to name a few. All excellent solutions and all will do the job. Harping on Adobe to bring back perpetual licenses just isn't going to happen, they've already moved forward as have almost 2 million Creative Cloud users. Creative Cloud is now earning more money for Adobe than perpetual licenses did so Adobe's future path is pretty clear.

Change sucks, but eventually you have to move on. I had 11 years of Final Cut Pro and Apple simply chucked the entire platform and said "Follow us or leave." So I left and boy was it a pain in the ass to learn Adobe Premiere Pro for the first few months. But we adapted and now I can't imagine editing without it.

So if you want to own, I would suggest testing other options and then deciding which one to go with.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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David Smith
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 5:39:54 am
Last Edited By David Smith on Apr 3, 2014 at 6:42:17 am

[walter biscardi] "Harping on Adobe to bring back perpetual licenses just isn't going to happen"

I assure you that harping on Adobe will continue to happen. Close to 2 million people may have subscribed by now (bet you lots of them hate having been strong-handed) and possibly they will make more money, but that doesn't make their business decisions right.

I know that you and I don't see eye to eye in the slightest on this issue of subscription, Walter (I've read your posts of adoring love for this thing for months now), but it seems we can agree that change sucks. Especially when it comes from a corporation that really used to seem to care. If you at all put up a fight towards Apple when they made their big change, then I hope you appreciate what's happening here and why so many people are protesting.

I can tell you this though: Adobe's change is much worse than what Apple did. When you left Apple and moved to Adobe, at least you were and still are, able to load up your old copy of FCP7 and use your archived files. You don't even have to pay Apple any new money to do so. That's not the case here with what Adobe has done. If (or should I say when) Adobe does something to tick you off too, you're gonna be pretty hosed trying to switch now.

This could be much more devastating for the future if they succeed. Forced subscription could slip into industries well beyond what Adobe does. If Adobe succeeds with their rental-only scheme, Avid, Autodesk and the others could follow suit and then we'd all be in serious trouble.

I've already started moving away Adobe, which is only possible because I didn't move to CC. I can still load up my archived files any time I need to. But if every company goes subscription, well, that would be a Subscription Cartel that would be pretty much impossible to move away from as time goes on. If we reach a future where we are paying subscription fees on every piece of software on our computer, we'd truly have reached a dark future.


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walter biscardi
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 2:32:38 pm

[David Smith] "Especially when it comes from a corporation that really used to seem to care. If you at all put up a fight towards Apple when they made their big change, then I hope you appreciate what's happening here and why so many people are protesting. "

The people who work at Adobe on all the products DO care. I know many of them personally. To say "they used to seem to care" is an insult to all of the rank and file.

Yeah, I put up a HUGE fight towards Apple for about six months and then came to the conclusion it wasn't worth it. It was time to move on, so we did. We had a disastrous trial with Avid and when we tried Adobe we realized it fit very nicely into our established FCP workflow.


[David Smith] "I've already started moving away Adobe, which is only possible because I didn't move to CC."

Best to you on the move. It sucks but in the end, you'll be up to speed on a new product and moving forward.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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Lance Bachelder
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 6:57:30 pm

While I'm not a fan of the subscription only model the reason it's okay for me is because the software is actually good! Not perfect, but really good.

I was not a fan of Premiere Pro 6 or earlier but with the CC update last year Adobe really stepped up for the pro users - especially FCP 7 users. Then the 7.2 update - which was substantial - gave us features that we would normally have to wait for the latest box set to get.

Now with the latest NAB announcements Premiere Pro and the rest of the suite just keep getting better. Adobe seems to moving faster on improvements then any other NLE company and for that reason I don't mind spending $49 per month.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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David Smith
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 11:26:38 pm

[walter biscardi] "The people who work at Adobe on all the products DO care. I know many of them personally. To say "they used to seem to care" is an insult to all of the rank and file."

It's an insult to them? That's laughable. Switching to subscription-only was an insult to me and many other of Adobe's long-term customers. If you're friends with them personally, naturally, I'd expect that you'll rally behind them blindly without maintaining a balanced view of this situation. To anyone outside of that inner-circle it's obvious that Adobe's move to forced subscription was a decision done primarily for their own benefit:

- They did it to make day to day work easier for their employees. Listen to how often Todd says he loves CC because now he's freed to work on things in a different way without deadlines or having to come up with glitzy new features. Oh what misery it was for him to maintain PL and subscription at the same time for that one year... :P
- They switched to CC to streamline revenue.
- They switched to CC to lock-in customers so it would be very difficult to switch to another company.

Sure, these are the actions of people who care... care about themselves. CC does not benefit me or many of other Adobe's other customers in any way. It only hinders us. Adobe switched to forced subscription for themselves. If those guys really cared, we wouldn't be in this situation right now. I'd be getting ready to open my wallet and purchase the upgrade for what would've been the release of the next perpetually licensed version. Actions speak louder than words. Sorry, chum, these guys do not care.

[walter biscardi] "Best to you on the move. It sucks but in the end, you'll be up to speed on a new product and moving forward."

Comments like this are condescending, Walter. You've completely skipped over my points about why the protesting is important. Don't beat yourself up too much. Your response is exactly the sort I've come to expect from inner-circle CC Apologists.

Switching to another software and continuing to protest Adobe's actions are not mutually exclusive. Yes, I'm moving on by integrating new software into my workflow, but I am also still drilling Adobe over what they've done. I know Adobe isn't going to start offering perpetual licenses again anytime soon, not until it becomes about money, but this issue is much bigger than Adobe.

I haven't seen anyone from either Adobe or one the apologists yet discuss their thoughts on subscription taking over every piece of software... It's a topic they always brush off and ignore.


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Richard Herd
Re: CC updates
on Apr 4, 2014 at 7:48:51 pm

[David Smith] "until it becomes about money"

What else would it be about? (Serious question)


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David Smith
Re: CC updates
on Apr 5, 2014 at 3:34:31 am

[Richard Herd] "What else would it be about? (Serious question)"

Well, I know this might be a novel idea, but some companies do things because their customers ask them to.


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Richard Herd
Re: CC updates
on Apr 5, 2014 at 7:06:27 pm

[David Smith] "Well, I know this might be a novel idea, but some companies do things because their customers ask them to."


...because that would generate money.


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Richard Herd
Re: CC updates
on Apr 4, 2014 at 3:27:48 pm

[David Smith] "possibly they will make more money, but that doesn't make their business decisions right."

What? Huh?

That's exactly backwards. The point of making a business decision is the possibility to make more money.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 3:44:54 pm

[walter biscardi] "Creative Cloud is now earning more money for Adobe than perpetual licenses did ..."

Walter,

This is wildly incorrect.

CC has a long way to go before it's generated "more money than perpetual licenses", which were generating considerably higher revenue in past. The revenue reports for the past year all stress that revenue is down.

http://ewallstreeter.com/when-will-adobe-s-earnings-resume-growth-3745/

You might be thinking of the recent report that CC subscriptions surpassed non-rental revenue in the past quarter.


Franz.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 6:09:52 pm

I'd say he'll quietly ignore your post there Franz.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 8:56:14 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'd say he'll quietly ignore your post there Franz."

Aindreas,

That's okay, mostly I'm here to use the library.

Franz.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 7:39:49 pm

CC might be generating more revenue than perpetual sales but not nessearaly because its selling more, probably because sales of cs6or other products are decreasing because people have moved on or are content with it.

I read a post that had the following numbers, of the 1,800,000 subscribers 30%
are the photshop. $10 subscribers the rest about 1,200.000 are full cc. of these howmany are video people? who knows, i would guess its less than 50%, and how many are paying full price?

CC hype is all over. adobe cannot afford to backtrack they have to stick yo it just in case it works. I think they are heading towards a big wall. they will crash into it or disintagrate before they get there.

Ricardo Marty


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Rainer Schubert
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 7:54:40 pm

[walter biscardi] "Creative Cloud is now earning more money for Adobe than perpetual licenses did so Adobe's future path is pretty clear."

Absolutely not the truth.
In 2012 (!) Adobes profit of perpetual licenses was at 225 m $/Quarter.
In Q1 2014 their profit from CC was roundabout 15 (!) m $/Quarter (and nearly the same additional from CS).
I think you misunderstood something.
In their (horrible minimalistic) last business report there was the sentence "We are now earning more from CC than from CS"
That means only, that they sold more CC than CS first time in last quarter.
Have a look on - Chris post - Their income is absolutely down. And also still sinking.
Only 1,2 of their 1,8 Mil. users are full paying users (Rest are single product users). Most of them with time limited discounts.
Compared to the 12+ Mil. users of perpetual licenses before... Not a real great success... OR?


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Dino Sanacory
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 3:47:34 am

Todd, could you please explain what exactly your post is supposed to mean here? Are you saying that there was previously something making it hard to release bug fixes and updates to poorly performing code? Thank you.


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walter biscardi
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 3:52:21 am

[Dino Sanacory] "Todd, could you please explain what exactly your post is supposed to mean here? Are you saying that there was previously something making it hard to release bug fixes and updates to poorly performing code? Thank you."

Meaning that in the past, Adobe would only make one, maybe two major releases during a calendar year. They were much more tightly controlled on what and when they could release any updates.

Also, at NAB time, they were under a lot of pressure to come up with major new releases to add "Wow" factor to encourage perpetual license upgrades. Generally these whiz bang features would come at the cost of simply working on new features to make the workflow more efficient. Now the team can simply work on efficiency and user request first, rather than coming up with huge splashy effects to get perpetual license users to upgrade.

That's the gist of what Todd is saying. They're much more able to actually respond to our editing / interface requests now that they're in the subscription model. CC and the updates this past year have been absolutely on target for what we actually will use every day in the edit suite.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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Dino Sanacory
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 12:43:14 pm
Last Edited By Dino Sanacory on Apr 3, 2014 at 1:21:57 pm

Walter, that does not sound true at all. There was no particular aspect of the previous model that would force Adobe to not release updates. Point revs have been a fact of all commercially released software for at least a couple decades (my direct experience). Tod's comment does not hold up to any scrutiny. It is true that Adobe had prior to CC, shortened the major release cycle and started using that as a way to introduce minor updates at a major price. That was one the reasons so many people skipped one or two cycles before updating. And then Adobe punished them by shortening the eligible upgrade cycle.

I also question your NAB comment. Millions of people around the world use Adobe's products and those users were always willing to accept an improved product. Photoshop was first released in 1990. After Effects came 3 years later. The every year release cycle was introduced in 2011 (CS 5.5). I believe the first NAB Show was in 1923. Any causation between Adobe's actions and NAB seems coincidental.

Adobe has always had the option to charge for minor upgrades. Leave major program redesigns to full number revisions, dot zero revs for bug fixes and dot one revs for minor upgrades (some of which could definitely be charged for). Adobe instead tried to turn the CS upgrade cycle into minor improvement for major price increases. I guess that didn't work for them.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 4:49:11 am

> "Todd, could you please explain what exactly your post is supposed to mean here? "


Walter summarized it rather well.

When we needed to convince people to drop many hundreds of dollars on an upgrade all at once, we had to have a few really big, snazzy features to catch people's attention and make the release seem "big". (At least, that is what our marketing folks believed.) We couldn't spend a year and a half fixing bugs and making subtle workflow improvements that save you a couple of clicks on every operation---even though that's what you would probably have appreciated more from us.

But now, when our focus is on retaining you as a customer from month to month, we are _required_ to remove every possible speedbump in your workflow, to make you as happy as possible with what you have; if we don't, you can just stop paying us and go with another set of software and services.

Personally, I like this model better because it forces us to be more engaged with y'all, and I've always thought that that is the best way to build anything---to be in constant contact with the people that you're building for.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Dino Sanacory
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 1:19:22 pm

"But now, when our focus is on retaining you as a customer from month to month" Todd, that is not the reality of CC. The situation now is that if the user wants access to their files, they are stuck paying no matter what Adobe does or doesn't do. Sure, Adobe is trying right now, when the company needs to convert as many as possible to CC. My question here (and the question I keep asking to all the Adobe sales people that keep bothering me) is, what about a year or two from now?

What will CC be then? Once Adobe achieves a certain critical mass of subscription customers the power shifts entirely to Adobe. At that point they can stop or slow development. At that point they can start raising prices, a lot.

I don't believe their intention is malicious but have your read the end user license agreement? It's a cold harsh document that give Adobe all rights to do as they wish with absolutely no responsibility. Maybe it's no different than before but then at least, with CS, we had some sense of ownership, there was a thing that was ours. Now though Adobe literally can turn our software off (within a month I guess). That is a power they don't need to have nor do they deserve.


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Walter Soyka
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 2:00:37 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "But now, when our focus is on retaining you as a customer from month to month, we are _required_ to remove every possible speedbump in your workflow, to make you as happy as possible with what you have; if we don't, you can just stop paying us and go with another set of software and services."

[Dino Sanacory] "Todd, that is not the reality of CC. The situation now is that if the user wants access to their files, they are stuck paying no matter what Adobe does or doesn't do."

Dino, are you a CC customer?

If you are not, you have not really seen the evidence that backs up what Todd is saying. I'm a CC customer, and I'm much happier with the development direction now than I was a couple years ago with Creative Suite. For example, as an Ae user, I'm much happier to have CC's little features like snapping in the comp viewer than I am to have CS6's big marquee feature, the ray-tracing renderer.

As for file access, I understand this why this is a stumbling block for some who require constant access to old project files, but it's not critical for everyone. The output (images, movies, PDFs) do not require CC. Many Adobe apps can save or export files that can be opened by other apps. In the worse case scenario, renting CC for a month or two to go back and re-open old work is not a huge financial barrier.

Once I switched away from FCP7, I was surprised how little I needed to go back to it: only once. I referred back to final work, I referred back to assets, but my real need to go back to old project files for shipped work was very low.

That's part of why I'm not so scared of CC dependence. I know that I can move elsewhere if I have to, because I've switched major software before and I've switched platforms before. I will do it again when it makes sense to.


[Dino Sanacory] "Once Adobe achieves a certain critical mass of subscription customers the power shifts entirely to Adobe. At that point they can stop or slow development. At that point they can start raising prices, a lot. "

That didn't work out for Quark.

Adobe cannot profitably raise the price of CC beyond where their customers can profitably use it. If they do, customers will leave and take their money elsewhere.

Adobe cannot stop development when everyone else is accelerating it. If they do, their software will be left behind, customers will leave and take their money elsewhere.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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walter biscardi
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 2:36:21 pm

Ditto to what Walter said. The other Walter.

So many conspiracy theories on what "Adobe might do" just miss the point of "What Adobe DOES do now" which are much more highly efficient tools than CS6. The next generation is even better.

It's been all over a year now. If you don't like the subscription model, definitely start moving on.

I can look at Adobe and think they at least didn't pull an Apple and simply throw away 11 years of workflow. All they did was change the way I pay for the software and while I was nervous about this at first, I really prefer this model now. When working with freelancers I can "loan out" on of our subscriptions so they can edit on the same version of the software we use. That's a lot easier than using XMLs back and forth.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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Dino Sanacory
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 5:59:54 pm

[walter biscardi] "I can look at Adobe and think they at least didn't pull an Apple and simply throw away 11 years of workflow. All they did was change the way I pay for the software and while I was nervous about this at first, I really prefer this model now. When working with freelancers I can "loan out" on of our subscriptions so they can edit on the same version of the software we use. That's a lot easier than using XMLs back and forth."

And as I understand it, your interest is primarily in Premiere. I totally agree, what Apple did was ridiculous. Without warning, walking away from what so many had built their infrastructure around. And could Premiere look anything but good in comparison? Final Cut is basically the same program since version 3. Premiere is a program, that finally, Adobe is driven to make into a real and competetive professional application. So you are happy now with what Adobe is doing now, with Premiere.

My concern is with what happens down the line. The relationship is completely one sided. Adobe has all the power. I'm not saying their intention is malicious. That would be a terrible business model. My concern is that all companies have problems, better and worse years, plans, ideas. We as the customers reward and punish what we do and don't like by our purchasing decisions. That is now not an option.

I know, then stop using Adobe. That is not a practical solution. There is no way to move a large and ongoing body of work that involves (for me) many people using Illustrator, Photoshop, After Effects, In Design. And even if I did get rid of Adobe, I am then incompatible with so many of our clients.

This thread is growing with emotional defenses of Adobe's current efforts, so yes, right now, all so lovely. I'm not going to take the time to respond to all of you and all of the same anecdotal responses. In my multiple conversations with them, Adobe has refused to defend it's EULA or lay out its take on the future of the product. In multiple conversations with Adobe and on forums like this, I continue to get half truths, opinions and misdirection about what is happening, what it means, and how it affects me now and moving forward.

I wish you all the best with your current endeavors and I hope two years from now, you find yourself in a situation you are happy with.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 5:10:08 pm

[Dino Sanacory] "At that point they can stop or slow development. At that point they can start raising prices, a lot.
"


Then people will leave if they don't feel like they are getting their money's worth. For example, many Avid users became so fed up with Avid during the Adrenaline days that they got rid of their $25k per-seat (minimum) investment in Avid and switched to FCP. Media Composer only came with Avid hardware in those days so when you sold your Avid you sold everything and had no way to open your collection of Avid projects. If people are willing to walk away from that size of investment I'm sure they are willing to walk away from Adobe's CC too.


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Walter Soyka
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 5:22:38 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "For example, many Avid users became so fed up with Avid during the Adrenaline days that they got rid of their $25k per-seat (minimum) investment in Avid and switched to FCP. Media Composer only came with Avid hardware in those days so when you sold your Avid you sold everything and had no way to open your collection of Avid projects. If people are willing to walk away from that size of investment I'm sure they are willing to walk away from Adobe's CC too."

For that matter... it used to be very common to lease or rent an Avid system.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Andrew Kimery
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 5:52:07 pm

[Walter Soyka] "For that matter... it used to be very common to lease or rent an Avid system."

For many movies and TV shows it still is. On a lot of the show's I've worked on office space and gear is rented, everyone is freelance and after a few months of hard work we all scatter to the winds and, aside from the finished product, it's like we never existed.


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David Smith
Re: CC updates
on Apr 4, 2014 at 12:01:42 am

[Andrew Kimery] "For many movies and TV shows it still is. On a lot of the show's I've worked on office space and gear is rented, everyone is freelance and after a few months of hard work we all scatter to the winds and, aside from the finished product, it's like we never existed."

In that situation, subscription might make sense. In fact, I can see many situations and for different companies that subscription could make sense. But, there are many situations and many companies it doesn't make sense for. One of many bigger gripes is that Adobe has taken the position their current offerings can work for anyone. They can't.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 3:58:00 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "(At least, that is what our marketing folks believed.)"

Todd,

I have no doubt that it makes sense for you to believe Adobe marketing.

Fortunately, I do not labour under such encumbrance.

Franz.


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Gabe Strong
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 3:52:03 am

New updates! This is my favorite time, time to see all the new goodies my NLE can be upgraded to!!
Oh, it's only for the rental customers.....never mind......

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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walter biscardi
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 3:52:53 am

[Gabe Strong] "New updates! This is my favorite time, time to see all the new goodies my NLE can be upgraded to!!
Oh, it's only for the rental customers.....never mind......"


Early adopters get all the fun.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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David Smith
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 5:41:48 am

[walter biscardi] "Early adopters get all the fun."

I think you mean the only adopters, because we sure as hell are never adopting the subscription model.


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 8:14:00 am

[David Smith] "I think you mean the only adopters, because we sure as hell are never adopting the subscription model."

The subscription model makes a *lot* of sense, for the reasons mentioned above.

(When Avid MC5 came out there was, for a short time, a 'rent'' button on their website next to 'buy'... )

but Adobe will eventually start releasing the 'finished' versions for the perpetual crowd.

This NAB looks like a good time to do it - e.g. the rental model is CS8.x and you can now buy, perpetually, CS7.final.

They could EOL CS6, bug-fix CS7 and continue development on CC (CS8.x)

It would create goodwill and make them some money and avoid the legal/financial issues with bug-fixes versus upgrades.

But maybe they'll wait for IBC...



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David Mathis
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 2:20:10 pm
Last Edited By David Mathis on Apr 3, 2014 at 2:21:36 pm

[Trevor Asquerthian] "The subscription model makes a *lot* of sense, for the reasons mentioned above.

(When Avid MC5 came out there was, for a short time, a 'rent'' button on their website next to 'buy'... )

but Adobe will eventually start releasing the 'finished' versions for the perpetual crowd.

This NAB looks like a good time to do it - e.g. the rental model is CS8.x and you can now buy, perpetually, CS7.final.

They could EOL CS6, bug-fix CS7 and continue development on CC (CS8.x)

It would create goodwill and make them some money and avoid the legal/financial issues with bug-fixes versus upgrades.

But maybe they'll wait for IBC..."


Not sure that will happen but sincerely hope it does. I have nothing personal against the subscription model.

A large post house, along with a large business will benefit from the subscription model. I am not so sure for the independent filmmaker, or small business benefiting over the long term.

Adobe will most likely eventually raise the price of admission when they reach their target goal. Every business has been known to offer a low rate to gain a customer base. After a few months or a couple of years the cost then goes up. Adobe is not alone. Cable companies and internet providers are the ones famous for doing this.

For me, not joining is a simply a budge matter. I am happy with my NLE of choice, for the moment. I am looking at getting Photoshop and perhaps Illustrator CS6, as of now Resolve is my choice for the occasional color grading job. Adobe has made a business decision. I have made one as well, need to find the tools that get the job done and ones that fit my budget. At the moment, the subscription model is just too expensive for my budget. I am still watching, should the situation change then I will consider subscribing. My two cents.


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walter biscardi
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 2:39:03 pm

[David Smith] "I think you mean the only adopters, because we sure as hell are never adopting the subscription model."

Then move on. It's been over a year. Trust me, this is a useless exercise to simply bitch moan and groan continuously. I dealt with Apple completely throwing away our tool and saying "F You. This is Final Cut Pro X, take it or leave it." After 11 years of loyalty that was my thanks. A workflow nobody in the industry asked for, well except may Larry Jordan who called it revolutionary.

Adobe changed the way you pay for the tool. That's much easier.

But seriously, it's been over a year. If everyone on this page "sure as hell are never adopting the subscription model" move on.

And with that I'm done with this thread, best of luck to y'all. Todd, I'll see you at the show!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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Brad Davis
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 9:14:18 pm

The one thing that kind of amazed me in all of this is what I've read a while back, the Federal Government through Sarbans/Oxley forced software companies to start charging for major updates. So, Adobe and Apple were somewhat forced to go to the cloud and build a subscription/download model to move their product forward. To Adobe's point, they had to release "big things" instead of refining the product.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 9:29:12 pm

[Brad Davis] "So, Adobe and Apple were somewhat forced to go to the cloud and build a subscription/download model to move their product forward."

Brad,

How do you explain 11 free and significant upgrades from Apple for FCP X?

Franz.


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Brad Davis
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 9:54:12 pm

The way that it sounded like updates vs. upgrades. I'm not sure how it was defined legally. Let's be honest though with FCPX...They had a long way to go in the first place.


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Steve Connor
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 9:57:51 pm

[Brad Davis] "They had a long way to go in the first place."

As did Adobe when PPro first came out, it has taken them some time to get it to this stage

Steve Connor

Class Bully


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Andy Field
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 11:23:34 pm
Last Edited By Andy Field on Apr 3, 2014 at 11:25:36 pm

If you're coming from FCP 7...Premiere Pro and the slew of updates feels like FCP on steroids.....we have no problem with the subscription because we run a business...it's the cost of doing business - and about the same price if not a little less than yearly updates.

Its a tool - it saves us hours upon hours of time just in not having to transcode video any longer..

Don't like the subscription...there's FCPX, AVID, Grass Valley, Imovie...many other choices.....if you like the tools..and they are extraordinary.. you need to pay the toll....for us it is a tremendous bargain.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Walter Soyka
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 11:31:37 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "How do you explain 11 free and significant upgrades from Apple for FCP X?"

I'm neither an accountant nor a lawyer, but my understanding is that SOX doesn't prohibit companies from providing free updates.

What it does require is that you may not recognize all the revenue from a sale at the time of the sale if you later release valuable updates. Instead, you must defer at least a portion of the revenue until all the value has been delivered. (This was a reaction to the accounting that enabled the Enron scandal, and failing to properly recognize revenue around feature delivery is the root of Avid's accounting woes.)

While Apple can afford to defer revenue from FCP X sales, which are insignificant to their bottom line, no software company could afford to defer revenue from their flagship product.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 11:54:32 pm
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on Apr 4, 2014 at 12:14:16 am

[Walter Soyka] "While Apple can afford to defer revenue from FCP X sales, which are insignificant to their bottom line, no software company could afford to defer revenue from their flagship product."

Walter,

How do you square this with the drop in revenue that Adobe was willing to accept for the switch to CC?

Once again, the revenue chart via Chris' post:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/7124
(Edit: that is profit not revenue, but revenue is down - better link below)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2014/03/14/adobe-earnings-pre...

"While we expect that the share of revenue from Creative Cloud will continue to grow in Q1 2014, the adoption of CC will continue to negatively impact the revenues and profitability as subscription service use is generally spread over the period of the software’s use."

But all this is speculating about board room reasoning.

My point is that the law doesn't prohibit the model (one which Adobe has used for how long?). The switch to rental is a choice, a theory, and a risk. There were other choices, theories, and risks available. To speak as if they were "forced into" this is absurd.

Franz.


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Walter Soyka
Re: CC updates
on Apr 4, 2014 at 12:00:52 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "How do you square this with the drop in revenue that Adobe was willing to accept for the switch to CC?"

I'm probably being dense, but I don't grasp the dilemma.


[Franz Bieberkopf] "My point is that the law doesn't prohibit the model (one which Adobe has used for how long?). The switch to rental is a choice, a theory, and a risk. There were other choices, theories, and risks available. To speak as if they were "forced into" this is absurd."

I agree with this.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: CC updates
on Apr 4, 2014 at 12:17:35 am
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on Apr 4, 2014 at 12:22:55 am

[Walter Soyka] "I don't grasp the dilemma."

I am trying to underscore the absurdity of this (recurring) argument: that SOX has a negative effect on revenue, and therefore rental is the only option for software makers. In other words, even if we limit ourselves to these two options:

- continued "upgrades" to perpetual licenses, which has a negative effect on revenue (due to SOX deferrals)
- rental model, which has a negative effect on revenue (due to lower prices)

... it's apparent that there is a negative effect on revenue for both these choices - so it is not the deciding factor. Clearly lower revenue is acceptable, and there are other factors at play.

This argument gets trotted out continually, and it just makes no sense. (In fact, you could even argue that SOX requirements have the effect of "stabilizing" revenue over a longer period.)

Franz.

(Edit: added revenue link to above post)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: CC updates
on Apr 4, 2014 at 4:46:20 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I am trying to underscore the absurdity of this (recurring) argument: that SOX has a negative effect on revenue, and therefore rental is the only option for software makers."

I don't think anyone is saying that. What people *are* saying is that due to SOX there are different accounting rules that have to be followed if you are selling a product (ex. CS 6) vs selling a subscription to a service (ex. CC) and those rules impact how companies are run. That, and Apple is an outlier in it's approach to software sales because they make their mountains of money by selling hardware.

Adobe is going through a big, controversially transition so I think it's normal to expect some waves and it hasn't even been a year yet. The stock price is still going very strong so Wall Street seemingly thinks the current revenue is par for the course and it will pan out in the long term.


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David Smith
Re: CC updates
on Apr 3, 2014 at 11:36:54 pm

[walter biscardi] "But seriously, it's been over a year. If everyone on this page "sure as hell are never adopting the subscription model" move on."

Like I said, it's possible to move on to different software, and still protest Adobe at the same time. I don't understand what problem you have with the protesting. I don't have a problem with how much you like subscribing to software. I do have a problem however with supporting subscription-only. The protesting against subscription as the only option will continue and not just from me by any means, so, I suggest you make peace with it.

Adobe has created a lot of ill-will with the switch to forced subscription. The sooner they make amends, the better off they're going to be, because sooner or later, it really will hurt them.

[walter biscardi] "And with that I'm done with this thread, best of luck to y'all. Todd, I'll see you at the show!"

Have fun at the show, Walter. I'm sure we'll cross paths again in another thread.


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Gary Huff
Re: CC updates
on Apr 4, 2014 at 3:20:57 pm

[David Smith] "I don't understand what problem you have with the protesting."

Because it's always the same smartass reply?


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