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Todd Kopriva
how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 21, 2014 at 12:41:16 am

Here's a clarifying article about how long Creative Cloud applications will remain activated when the computer is offline:

"Creative Cloud: Internet connectivity, offline grace period, and reminders": http://adobe.ly/1h2A52J

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 22, 2014 at 10:31:51 pm

hang on,

do you think we actually care about the specific point at which you choose to summarily kill our ability to work and pay bills because of a failed payment or some future incompetence on your part.

possibly figure out any way to make this situation more secure for your base.
because you are retrograde as a company. you are, in truth, something close to a grinning nineteenth century throwback wielding the lash of forced rent for a days pay. you're not oracle. your new tenants are to a large degree single occupiers. you are creating globally forced tenancy for small creatives.

you are, in that sense, the worst, and you are operating boss worker tactics under a mountain of crass new age creative cloud bulls**t.

you have removed the tools of ownership as a new age west coast/mumbai orwellian wheeze, and you are rather complicit in that social degradation. lattes and creative empowerment notwithstanding.

there is a fantastical social timewarp being introduced here. the wage stagnation in the united states is jaw dropping. And now, wait for it, high value creative workers are effectively tenant serfs to other parties.

lets all take a dip in the pool shall we? Its a tad chilly this.

Are we retarding society as expressed through the advances of the twentieth century? does excavating the self image and security of the large middle have an impact? making them transient without tool ownership? did that secure social middle take time to construct? was that very hard won? is it the source of our current prosperity? exactly how stupid is adobe and its ilk? why are they destabilising basic notions of lifetime advancement?

following on, are there critical arguments being engaged about an extractive economy being operated by largely amoral entities? Is there a call back to the venetians? Is there a potential spiral? How stupid are some people?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/opinion/sunday/the-self-destruction-of-th...

do adobe's action's here impact broader social consideration?
and is all this covered by them spending moron's money on cloud ads?

And do I also hate, which is to say, utterly hate adobe for producing this fundamentally corrosive social move?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Richard Herd
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 23, 2014 at 7:23:25 pm

I'm pretty sure Todd is not the "you" at whom to be angry.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 23, 2014 at 7:54:29 pm

Yes, Richard...I find there's nothing like shooting the messenger to ensure that lines of communication stay open and friendly.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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David Mathis
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 23, 2014 at 10:27:55 pm

I agree!


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Oliver Peters
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 23, 2014 at 11:03:03 pm

I, too, would love to see greater participation here by Adobe folks. Kicking them about the subscription every time they provide some useful info doesn't help the cause. If you look at Avid, it's pretty much Marianna who is the corporate standard-bearer. Look at Apple and it's NO ONE. At least Adobe has a few volunteers and that's fresh air. So let's encourage more, if you don't mind.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rich Rubasch
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 23, 2014 at 11:22:01 pm

I don't know...I enjoyed it. Please let me buy software. Not rent software.

Thank you....that's my only "feature" request.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 12:23:46 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "do you think we actually care about the specific point at which you choose to summarily..."

Who makes up the "we" you speaking for? I'm glad that Todd posted this because it's a question that comes up often.


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Gary Huff
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 1:58:08 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Who makes up the "we" you speaking for?"

The usual suspects of course!


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Chris Pettit
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 5:01:44 am

[Gary Huff] "[Andrew Kimery] "Who makes up the "we" you speaking for?"

The usual suspects of course!"


And who makes up the usual defenders of the CC orthodoxy?:

The usual suspects of course!


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Richard Herd
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 5:19:25 pm

Whether or not "you" and/or/not "we" like or dislike CC, Todd is not the person to get blame or credit.

Now, about CS6's inability to edit subclips....


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Chris Pettit
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 5:34:05 pm

[Richard Herd] "Whether or not "you" and/or/not "we" like or dislike CC, Todd is not the person to get blame or credit. "

I didn't knock Todd, I agree totally.


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Shane Ross
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 8:00:54 pm

Leave Todd alone! It's very helpful to post information like this. Even to those of us who don't use the CC yet.

I, like Rich, have only one feature request: software "ownership." Renting my tools just makes ZERO sense. I know the benefits are frequent updates containing new features and bug fixes. But the fact that my tools can "lapse" and not work at some point in the future if I don't pay my rent really hits me as wrong.

That is the ONLY issue I have with this software, ATM...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Pat Spahr
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 8:19:02 pm

Very nicely presented argument. I fundamentally agree and support every point you make. But not once did you mention the company shareholders. If Adobe executives fail to achieve projected revenue and profit targets they could be out of a job. This new rental scheme allows them to rake in a profit gain of historic proportions. The executives responsible for it will be praised and awarded massive bonuses for their efforts. Let us not forget the profit motive of capitalism. Having worked for Oracle, who you mentioned, some years back, I can tell you that on the upper floors, that is all that really matters.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 9:35:06 pm

[Pat Spahr] "But not once did you mention the company shareholders."

Pat mate, I've mentioned those shareholder boys plenty of times before - the only way we make it work is if they, as shareholders, stop buying adobe's moves. If they start to think it's not societally a goer.

I wrote this screed:

http://adobe2014.tumblr.com/

It relates directly to the tension between adobe as tool provider, and adobe as an aged company with a board orientated like an arrow to shareholder group demands.

It's still, reading between the lines in the financial press, open to question whether they pull the trick off. They are currently offering subscriptions at radically reduced rates if you sneeze. If they can't produce a viable subscription rump out of the original ten million creative suite owners then capitalism triumphs a different way and shantanyu narayens dream of lifetime rental for millions dies, and the company software assets transfer to other tool providers.

I'm inclined to prefer they were themselves eaten by capitalism, rather then we are chewed on as tool renters for the rest of our natural lives. Because we all know the software assets like photoshop and after effects and the rest will live on indestructibly after the expiration of the corporate adobe. Immediate software buyers at the funeral and tool customers in the millions for decades hence. Everyone has shareholders. It's just the specific corporate shell of adobe that would die. And their forced lifetime rental wheeze with it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Pat Spahr
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 10:35:28 pm

Brilliantly expressed. I hope that somewhere up there in the rarified air of Adobe's boardroom is listening. Their tools have served me and millions like us quite well. However, a tool is not what I wish to become.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 9:58:09 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " And do I also hate, which is to say, utterly hate adobe for producing this fundamentally corrosive social move?"

[Oliver Peters] "I, too, would love to see greater participation here by Adobe folks. Kicking them about the subscription every time they provide some useful info doesn't help the cause."

While I would agree that it's mean-spirited to have aimed this at Todd in response to a helpful post, I think it's also important to recognize that, over the past year or so, those from Adobe who do post usually add that "subscriptions are not my area" or some such qualification.

It's worth noting that in all this time no one from Adobe who is responsible for subscriptions - and surely there must be someone - has taken the time to recognize, address, or engage with the discussion about subscriptions. That's a long time and this forum is an ongoing open opportunity for them.

If their associates are deaf to their customers, those from Adobe who do post in a forum about the subscription problem should expect to hear about it - they are here representing the company.

Franz.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 10:08:48 pm
Last Edited By Todd Kopriva on Feb 24, 2014 at 10:09:39 pm

> "...I think it's also important to recognize that, over the past year or so, those from Adobe who do post usually add that "subscriptions are not my area" or some such qualification. It's worth noting that in all this time no one from Adobe who is responsible for subscriptions - and surely there must be someone - has taken the time to recognize, address, or engage with the discussion about subscriptions."


Mike Chambers has been posting on Creative COW a fair amount, and Creative Cloud subscriptions are his area:
http://my.creativecow.net/Mike-Chambers

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 10:20:03 pm
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on Feb 24, 2014 at 10:21:53 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Mike Chambers has been posting on Creative COW a fair amount"

Todd,

Thanks for this - worth qualifying that he's had 3 posts in the last 10 months, too.

(Though that did include the definitive "no other option" post.)
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/6439

Franz.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 24, 2014 at 10:24:03 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "If their associates are deaf to their customers, those from Adobe who do post in a forum about the subscription problem should expect to hear about it - they are here representing the company."

Adobe has already said that they have no pending announcements about the subscription plans (this was discussed at length in previous threads) so what's the point of pestering someone like Todd whom we should all know by now has nada, zip, zilch, nothing to do with the financial side of Adobe?

Just try not to poison the well for those of us that find this *voluntary* posting by people from Adobe useful.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 9:11:06 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "those of us that find this *voluntary* posting by people from Adobe useful."

please. exactly how useful was that post. and is it not something that thirty seconds on google could provide you.

to the point - this is labelled the debate forum - there are exactly two of them on the cow and they are governed by debate rules - I addressed him as representing adobe, and realistically, the point of this forum is not to thank him for turning up to discuss a point ancillary to the issue of the forced global rental model itself.

This is a place where you get to take a pop at the basic issues surrounding the forced rental model. Or argue it at any rate.

To be clear, I wasn't playing the man in the above post - I was playing the elephant in the room context of the information provided and the fact that it ignores the more basic issues surrounding the gun point rental.

Todd went on to clarify that mike chambers is more directly involved in the rental strategy. Mike posting is like Haley's comet. In the absence of mike - it's todd.

And besides - I actually do think there is a basic, real societal problem with what they're doing. Making the very livelihood tools themselves transient and without ownership for millions of people is fundamentally regressive in terms of the hard won social compact built up between workers and those with the ability to determine the course and security of worker's lives. Unions are dying on their feet, and now basic ownership of the software tools we rely on to pay our bills is being removed.

Do we just presume corporations are good guys we should be nice to when they appear on social mediums?

beyond a certain point capitalism red in tooth and claw starts to savage people below certain rungs. Voluntarily giving up tool ownership and signing onto lifetime tool rental is the act of a moron. Expanded to millions globally, its actually asking for deeply serious, what was the point of that 20thC struggle, trouble.

It's an old point, but corporations are, in formal analysis, sociopaths. Society scale sociopaths. they exhibit all such dead empathy behaviours. We're idiots to get into this, and we are going to badly regret it. And the remaining unions are punch drunk, senile and dead on their feet. Do we think all that incredibly difficult bloody work by early labour movements to stabilise and re-set society allowing the creation of the broad middle class was a lark we can gaily throw away because software is made in california? and we drink lattes now?


we're idiots. I swear to god we are all idiots on this.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew Kimery
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 9:46:36 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Feb 25, 2014 at 10:19:25 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "please. exactly how useful was that post. and is it not something that thirty seconds on google could provide you."

The numbers changed more than once and there's lots of misinformation out there so it is useful to have a link to the correct info.


[Aindreas Gallagher] "to the point - this is labelled the debate forum - t"

Yeah, debate. I'm not saying to stop. I'm just pointing out that 'debating' (and I use the term loosely as it's usually more like hurling insults than debating) with Todd about this is like debating an FCP X programer at Apple about Apple's decision to manufacture in China instead of the US. Yeah, the dude works at Apple but doesn't mean he has anything to do with (or even any normal contact with) with the people that making decisions about manufacturing locations.

Why not spend your time and energy more constructively by communicating with people that are in a position to address the things you want changed? If you found a bug in AE would you call Adobe's accounting department in order to get it fixed?

Why that being said, within this forum (as well as other forums and communications sent to Adobe) I've let them now that the current situation is inadequate and what changes I would like to see. Busting the balls of anyone from Adobe that you happen to have contact with is just pointless, IMO.


[Aindreas Gallagher] "Voluntarily giving up tool ownership and signing onto lifetime tool rental is the act of a moron.

This "moron" is making good money from CC and rental vs ownership is a none issue for me because whatever production company I happen to be working for at the time owns everything, not me. Avid, FCP, PPro... its all the same end result. When I leave the gig I leave everything from the gig behind. Given the instability in the industry I'm much less concerned about what the landscape may or may not look like 5-10 years down the road and much more concerned about what's going on right now.

Try painting with a narrower brush, curbing the insults and thinking outside of your own box, Aindreas. Your needs & desires are not everyones needs and desires.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 2:47:11 am

[Andrew Kimery] "... a none issue for me because whatever production company I happen to be working for at the time owns everything, not me. ... When I leave the gig I leave everything from the gig behind."

Andrew,

I hope you can appreciate the concerns of those for whom this is more than "just a gig". Artists, for example, tend to be fairly close to their work, and are less inclined to walk away from it. Independent producers generally need a "long-term" relationship with their work. Educators, as another example, have to consider the long term implications of the tools they teach. None of these people have the "walk-away" option, and are looking for tools that meet their needs.

There's nothing wrong with championing your own needs, of course, but if it amounts to "I got mine", then it isn't representative of much.

Franz.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 27, 2014 at 1:24:45 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "There's nothing wrong with championing your own needs, of course, but if it amounts to "I got mine", then it isn't representative of much."

That's the exact opposite of my intent, Franz. I'm merely pointing out that Adobe CC works perfectly fine for some people's needs, including my own currently, and I get labeled a moron for it. People should use what's best for them (maybe it's Adobe, maybe it's not). I can certainly appreciate that everyone has different needs which is why I always personalize my statements. Unlike some other posters I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. I just wish the overreaching blanket statements and personal insults would stop as neither is conducive to an actual discussion.


[Franz Bieberkopf] "I hope you can appreciate the concerns of those for whom this is more than "just a gig". Artists, for example, tend to be fairly close to their work, and are less inclined to walk away from it."

Leonardo da Vinci said, “Art is never finished, only abandoned" and according to Steve Jobs, "Real artists ship." Everything comes to an end Franz. ;) I try to work on projects that I hope can make the world a better place (cliched but true) but they do no good if they never see the light of day. The passion I have for my work, and the legitimacy of it, shouldn't be questioned just because I don't run my own facility or own the IP of what I'm working on. I find people to collaborate with on a project (a web series, a TV show, a documentary, etc.,) and when the project is done and delivered I move on. I don't see how that disqualifies me from being an artist.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 28, 2014 at 7:46:20 pm

bud - I'm not in any way calling you a moron. You know that. besides - I used the word we - I just think there is nothing wrong with trying to kick up a stink on this.

Also I'm not calling for a union nirvana - I'm just saying we need to be somewhat cognisant of history and the basic motives of corporations left unchecked.

I simply don't like them summarily removing all software ownership, and the basic security that denotes, by fiat, for millions who operate in the creative industries, given it can be a precarious occupation at the best of times.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew Kimery
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Mar 1, 2014 at 2:05:54 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "bud - I'm not in any way calling you a moron. You know that. besides - I used the word we - I just think there is nothing wrong with trying to kick up a stink on this."

Right, I'm just having fun with your flowery language. Sometimes too flowery for my tastes but I know there isn't any malice behind it. I once worked with an editor that yelled a lot. Not angrily mind you but he just talked loudly and with lots of energy. Kinda off putting at first but after a bit I realized that that was just who he was and I never gave another worry about it.

Ultimately it's always good to have people kicking up a stink even if it's a stink I'm not really kicking myself.

Funny thing, sometimes in this forum I feel like a people are a hair's breadth away from calling me a corporate shill and in the other debate forum I think there are some people that view me as a business hating godless communist. I'm not quite sure how things played out this way. lol


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Todd Kopriva
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 10:11:10 pm
Last Edited By Todd Kopriva on Feb 25, 2014 at 10:13:19 pm

> exactly how useful was that post. and is it not something that thirty seconds on google could provide you.


The periodic activation checks are central to the idea of a subscription model. Many people who are unhappy with the subscription model have expressed legitimate concern about these activation checks failing when the computer is offline, thus preventing them from using their applications. Therefore, details of how activation checks function when the computer is offline are very relevant to the debate. In my opinion, these details had never been before made publicly available in an adequately clear and definitive format; now that they are, I decided that I should share them so that you could all have the most informed debate possible.

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 11:22:44 pm

completely fair and this has to be gone beyond tedious for you, given the level of crazy polemic being thrown around by someone completely other than me.

I do have an issue with replies to the corporation being atomised down to the specifics of correspondence with you, as a point of issue though.

you directly represent the corporate adobe here, insofar as you are bound to.

In essence Todd, we're not talking to you, we are talking to adobe corporate - or at least I hope we are, otherwise I'm very bad conversational company and you would be more than understood in telling everyone where to get off. But that is not happening.

You are in essence a PR representation of adobe corporate. there is nothing wrong with that - for instance I know very good former journalists who run communications for charities and NGO's - coming from backgrounds in BBC radio and stuff - as do many people from professional software backgrounds involved in communications for software companies.

but I am beyond sick with this notion that we are either abusing, or damaging supposed specific relationships with individuals when, if anyone is rational, we are not. You are not here for a chat. We are not chums. you, or other adobe adobe communications experts will be here as much as you deem fit. the notion that this is dependent on the specifics of any given discourse (within reason) is a joke.

there are tons of people in PR who operate for the very best reasons in the world, using the best life skills available to them. They're still in PR.

the thing I find irritating in software is that there is all this atomised clubby chumminess, at all the meets and then online - isn't that guy a great guy - it doesn't sit well, when the overarching corporate, say, starts tearing tool ownership away from millions.

As the man say Todd - and with absolute and meant sincerity - this is not directed at you. It is not. it is directed at those paying you.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Todd Kopriva
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 7:20:54 am

> "You are in essence a PR representation of adobe corporate."


Not really.

I am a member of the After Effects quality engineering team. My only job is to make sure that the After Effects product is of the highest quality possible. The reason that I participate on this forum is that I recognize that the system surrounding the After Effects application (e.g., the installation, activation, and support systems) are crucial parts of the overall After Effects product, and so we must pay as close attention to these aspects as we do to the quality of the application itself.

I am not part of PR (public relations). I am part of quality engineering. And engineering quality means listening to y'all, who are the only judges of quality who matter: our customers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 8:38:57 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Not really."

if you say so, but that initial post looked a lot like you publicly relating corporate policies on license termination to me. and you're presumably not doing it for the good of your health.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Mike Parfit
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 7:02:03 am

Aindreas's talk of unions seemed a bit OT, but on reflection, it's not.

The crazy behaviour corporations have shown more and more, from exorbitant top-end salaries to declining real wages, to consumer-unfriendly actions like this rental scheme by Adobe, seem to have coincided directly with the decline in the corporations' once-formidable adversary: collective organization. Those who preach the social benefits of the free market have been quite willing to engage in lobbying for regulation and other non-libertarian kinds of actions to destroy the unions, though in a real free market, one would think that if corporations should be free to spend and hire as they wish, employees should be equally free to organize.

Realism says that the rental scheme is just another piece of the steady decline of power among those who work for wages or on contract, which without question diminishes the power of the middle class to maintain its financial strength. Lack of organization also means the decline in power of any group of craftspeople to successfully oppose a corporate policy that is not in their interest.

So Andreas has accurately put our plight in its larger context. For that, thank you.

And for people like me, who are not part of the usual subjects who post here, Adobe please recognize that this is not a typical position for my sort, but that actions of this nature, so unresponsive to the needs and requests of many, tend to polarize, sooner or later creating implacable enmity.

This stuff builds up from many sources. For the first time in my life, recently, I saw a group of suits behind a glass at an athletic event, and I felt a surge of what could only be class anger. I like all humans in general and find class and culture to be veneers, so it was shocking to feel it, and disturbing to think it might be valid. I have always believed that it is worth fighting that kind of anger because it does nothing but destroy. But the gyre widens.

So I and others I know will continue to be part of the group Andreas has urged us to create, and will abstain from paying the rent. Call it collective action or, in a more politically-palatable phrase, call it voting with our feet. Democracy.

Mike


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Oliver Peters
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 1:03:38 pm

[Mike Parfit] "but that actions of this nature, so unresponsive to the needs and requests of many, tend to polarize, sooner or later creating implacable enmity."

Speak for yourself. I'm not sure this is true. In fact many users feel that the Cloud subscription creates a more responsive situation, not less. After all, you are free to drop the subscription at any time and if you've taken proper precautions, you aren't really dependent on an Adobe app to open your project down the road. Plus, when NAB rolls around, it would be wise to look around and see how many other companies adopt a similar strategy.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mike Parfit
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 3:13:14 pm

Hi, Oliver,

Certainly speaking only for myself, but also with great respect for your work and views.

But learning real expertise in deep software is not a trivial cost, and the no-off-ramp rental scheme gathers all power in Adobe's hands -- to raise rates and reduce R&D once its near-monopoly is solidified by its present effort to claim the technical high ground and get people fully hooked. To me as an independent filmmaker $50 a month is significant but acceptable. Not having either the competition or the organizational power to react to possible -- likely? -- future predatory pricing by Adobe is not. This is worse even than the cell-phone model, which in Canada hasn't exactly proven to be particularly beneficial in the lack of sufficient competition, and was so bad that it forced even a conservative government to intervene with regulation.

For some reason we have given corporations the legal licence to operate outside the social structure of give and take that most of the rest of us live with in our families and communities. This seems to have become more vivid in recent years. The use of the word sociopath is provocative but shouldn't be, because it accurately describes what corporations have become. The evidence is everywhere. i'm more provoked by what our once-proud nonfiction cable channels have become than by Adobe, but Adobe is part of the phenomenon. Its unwillingness to engage in any form of real dialogue over what is obviously a significant concern by a large numbers of customers is ample evidence.

Like you, I am certainly expecting more of the same. So I'm only suggesting that we don't have much power these days to oppose corporate plans that take consumers' power from our hands. I chose for now to exercise what little I have, and abstain, and urge others to do the same.

Cheers, and thanks for your continued extraordinarily fine journalism and commentary on these subjects.

Mike


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Oliver Peters
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 11:00:04 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Feb 26, 2014 at 11:02:12 pm

[Mike Parfit] "To me as an independent filmmaker $50 a month is significant but acceptable. Not having either the competition or the organizational power to react to possible -- likely? -- future predatory pricing by Adobe is not."

Look, I'm not trying to bust your chops. You make a lot of good points. But didn't you just laud Aindreas with basically a pro-union point-of-view? Leaving politics aside, you can't argue the pros and cons of software democratization on one hand and then on the other pine for a situation that results in a select class of users and edit suites that cost $100,000 and up. That world would completely prevent you from even getting started as an independent filmmaker.

[Mike Parfit] "For some reason we have given corporations the legal licence to operate outside the social structure of give and take that most of the rest of us live with in our families and communities."

I'm sorry. I simply don't view the world that way. We have done no such thing. You are buying a product or service and should accept the guidelines accordingly. If not, find another product, service or company. Is Adobe's approach really any different, than Apple's - where the software is updated in a way to "force" you into upgrading the hardware to gain the benefits?

The bottom line is that - like it or not - none of these companies owes you or me anything. If they make a great product - the market will reward. "Great" is a relative term, of course, when we start to argue the merits of MC vs FCP X vs PProCC ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mike Parfit
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 27, 2014 at 6:53:32 am

Hi, Oliver,

I'm pining for nothing other than a situation in which I do not need to feel like a complete hostage to a corporation's whims if I want to thoroughly learn the software then continue working on a project I've started even when my own financial times get tough. Of course it's a balance -- I'd probably feel fine being in hock to them for a two- or three- year payout if the same semi-security I presently have with FCP7 were waiting at the end. It's the absolute nature of this process that leaves me feeling powerless.

And I sure don't feel that Adobe or any other corporation owes me anything. That's the point. We can't expect corporations to have any human traits at all except need for financial growth, and I don't like it when people call that greed, because it isn't. It's just corporate DNA.

I'm just saying that one should neither accuse Adobe of greed nor expect it to be trustworthy, because neither of those are intrinsic qualities that a corporation can possibly have. Because our society has made it OK for a corporation to act in amoral ways without paying a social price (which I've seen from the inside) we must be careful to recognize we can't count on socially cooperative behaviour from any company with which we're dealing -- of course including Apple. It's an old truism: for corporations, the shareholders are the customers and the consumers are the prey. That's just the way it is. It's our self-interest vs. theirs, and it would help for us to be more organized and hardened -- because they sure are.

Enough, enough. This debate will go on and on, I hope. But not for me tonight.

Cheers,

Mike


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 28, 2014 at 10:05:42 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Feb 28, 2014 at 10:26:34 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But didn't you just laud Aindreas with basically a pro-union point-of-view? "

In that, good sir Oliver, you are incorrect. The only thing I pointed out was that the basic force of unionisation, drawn together to rectify gross polarising social ills, is senile and dead on its feet. It is. We raised it, and we are all children of it, its benefits are incredibly profound, but it has proved pretty seriously mortal. The real question is whether, after passing, it served to fundamentally domesticate the worst pathologies in society. or, if left alone, are we actually screaming hierarchical monkeys as you might think.

Polarised societies are generally sick societies. In most current anglo saxon western states right now the middle class - the direct engine of prosperity and social progress - is being eaten alive. Rank visible disparities, gross wage compensation at the top, forced wage stagnation below the median, visibly different laws for the rich, you can get up in arms about it, but the point is that it is just stupid long term. Wealth creation and stability requires a society that everyone can recognise as being shared. You guys recognise that kind of era as the great generation. Its all second world war stuff - but it was a fundamentally shared society.

after the Reagan/Thatcher gift of amoral finance went to hell and nearly took us all down, watching a corporation like adobe fundamentally choosing to lift up the leg of generally insecure small scale creatives in their millions worldwide, and start chewing on their shins with absolutely no recourse or out for anyone, given half of the critical suite is at monopoly stage - AE PS ID ILL - is not a madly welcome sight.

there is no class of union left for these kinds of actions - they are supra-national to begin with, and I am going to re-state for the obviously blind - corporations like adobe are intrinsically engaged in amoral decisions that have no relation to any social good. Adobe would not recognise, respect or understand a social good if it walked up and slapped them in the face.

Adobe just fundamentally re-ordered the financial security and self image of around ten to fifteen million creatives across the globe.
They also largely financially kneecapped small scale education and charities. There is plenty on that issue in the cow archives Oliver, if you care to peruse it.

Does anyone think they care? Top Tip: the answer is no. Because there actually is no "they" there. Morality requires a self.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew Kimery
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 27, 2014 at 1:39:06 am

[Mike Parfit] "
But learning real expertise in deep software is not a trivial cost, and the no-off-ramp rental scheme gathers all power in Adobe's hands -- to raise rates and reduce R&D once its near-monopoly is solidified by its present effort to claim the technical high ground and get people fully hooked. "


If Adobe raises rates and reduces R&D editors will leave for Avid, Apple or possibly even Lightworks. In the mid 2000's when Avid MC users didn't like the bang for the buck they were getting they left for FCP and those users had way more invested in Avid (probably $30k per seat minimum) than CC users will have invested in Adobe. Avid getting lazy also pokes a hole in the "perpetual license = great R&D, subscription license = lame R&D" argument. Also, there was no software only version of MC back then so when you sold your Avid(s) you lost all ability to open up your projects (unless you saved an EDL).

If Avid MC and FCPX both disappeared tomorrow, yes, I would worry about Adobe getting lazy but that's only because of the lack of competition, not because of their subscription model.


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Oliver Peters
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 27, 2014 at 1:58:04 am

[Andrew Kimery] "If Adobe raises rates and reduces R&D editors will leave for Avid, Apple or possibly even Lightworks."

And this also directly speaks to the project restoration issue.

I work in a number of shops that have switched from FCP7 to either FCP X or Premiere Pro. In the latter case, they also switched to PCs. Yet there are many established customers with reoccurring work (it's a TV station with local market commercial clients). So there are assets spread over several years that get accessed repeatedly and this often requires bouncing between Macs and PCs, FCP and Premiere, one SAN versus another, plus differing versions of AE. Yes, there is some interoperability via XML, but for the most part, it's better to start from scratch.

The point is that even though we may want to preserve project data, the software decisions we make in the future may throw a monkey wrench into these plans.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 3:59:16 pm

[Oliver Peters] "... if you've taken proper precautions, you aren't really dependent on an Adobe app to open your project down the road."

Oliver,

This is demonstrably false, particularly for Premiere CC. I'm surprised to see you make this claim.

An XML is not a project. There are ways to save derivatives of elements of projects. That is not the same as a project.

Franz.


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Oliver Peters
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 26, 2014 at 10:46:25 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "This is demonstrably false, particularly for Premiere CC. I'm surprised to see you make this claim."

Why? Export an XML, EDL and create split track textless sub master files. The reality is that project files are less useful than most people think. Plug-in compatibility is always a big issue. If you have an old project and a newer version of the app, there's no guarantee that the upgraded project will be properly retranslated. FCP X has definitely suffered from that in my experience. This tends to work best in FCP "legacy" and Avid Media Composer, but not always.

The biggest issue is opening newer projects in older versions. For example, there are plenty of AE templates you can buy that cannot be opened in C5.5 or earlier. So access to your old projects is one issue, but not the only one.

When I've made revisions to old jobs, 90% of the time, it was more productive to go back to textless sub masters and build upon those, than to try to open an old project and make sure you still have all the media. This is significantly worse with Premiere, because it lets you work in many native file formats, with or without important metadata like timecode and reel ID info. The lack of need to do any pre-edit organization is a double-edged sword.

I'm not saying that being unable to open old projects isn't a problem. It certainly is. I am just saying that there are ways to protect yourself to a large extent. Obviously you could always re-instate the subscription to access a project at some point down the road.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 27, 2014 at 2:02:23 am
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on Feb 27, 2014 at 2:16:38 am

[Oliver Peters] "Export an XML, EDL and create split track textless sub master files."

Oliver,

What this may achieve is some version of a sequence. The effectiveness and details of such a method can be debated, but a sequence is not a project. (Regardless of what the geniuses at Apple would have you think.)

Since you seem to unclear about it, a project is the sum of all clips, versions, and their relationships - if well kept, it is a clear record of the edit process, including assemblies, unused scenes and sequences, raw translations, effects and structure experimentation etc.

You can argue that projects are never future-proof (though the answer would be that some software is designed better in terms of backwards compatibility) but you're statement was that "you aren't really dependent on an Adobe app to open your project down the road".

The ideal is to have the project and be able to open it at some future date. A sequence (or several) is not a project.

[Oliver Peters] "When I've made revisions to old jobs,..."

What about opening old projects for teaching purposes? What about additional material for special presentations. special retrospectives, etc. years hence (deleted scenes, alternate versions, etc.). What about unanticipated uses?

Remember the example of the deleted Dr. Who tapes - the lesson is not just to keep masters of broadcasts, the lesson is that we don't really know how the future unfolds, and so the things we use to achieve our ends (in that case, master tapes for broadcasts) may end up having value beyond what we know (in that example, rebroadcasts or home sales). The process and its materials are important.

Or have we all figured out how things will be in future?

You can argue that all software designers do a poor job addressing this, but firstly this ignores the ones who do better than others (Avid has done pretty good with Pro Tools, for example, while Apple pretty much gets bottom marks), and secondly it glosses over a need. Software designers and hardware designers need to be urged to better technology - it isn't enough to urge people to just accept the way things are.

Franz.


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Oliver Peters
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 27, 2014 at 2:19:52 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Since you seem to unclear about it, a project is the sum of all clips, versions, and their relationships - if well kept, it is a clear record of the edit process, including assemblies, unused scenes and sequences, raw translations, effects and structure experimentation etc."

I do see what you are getting at. And yes, that has value. However, it often only has value to the original editor and not others. Many achieve these same results with FileMaker databases, various asset management applications, etc. So, I agree, it can be important. I'm just not that torn up about it, because my primary concern is usually the final product. And BTW - an XML can be for sequence and project.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Mathis
Re: how long Creative Cloud applications remain activated when the computer is offline
on Feb 25, 2014 at 5:43:24 pm

Todd,

I want to express my thanks for providing us with useful information and taking the time to post here. You and Kevin have been very helpful. I see the subscription only model as nothing more than as a business decision. I might not agree with it but accept the fact this is the direction Adobe has chosen to take.

For now my choice to not not subscribe is the lack of an exit strategy. Perhaps when one is implemented I will consider joining.

Thank you again for giving us information and taking your time to post on this forum.

Sincerely,

David


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