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Hellooooooooo?

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Daniel McClintock
Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 4:53:41 am

No new posts in over a week? Did everyone take their toys and go home?

------------------------

"Sometimes Life Needs a Cmd-Z!"


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Steve Connor
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 9:00:53 am

Perhaps everyone has realised that resistance is futile and they've all been assimilated into the Adobe Cloud?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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David Mathis
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 4:16:50 pm







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Jim Wiseman
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 9:26:07 am

Took my toys and moved to FCP X 10.1.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.4, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, 2 Hexacore MacPros 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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David Mathis
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 4:19:28 pm

I did the same thing, but use Photoshop on occasion. It is of the CS variety not the drain my wallet every month plan. Just had to say it. :-)


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 11:19:53 am

Still here.
But the one who keeps silence is Adobe.
Think we have to wait a bit, to see if they get away with their so called "Cloud".
May be the missing income will change it.
Never got so many announcements from Adobe...
Price is now for 3 yrs (and I bet one can get better conditions...)


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Chris Pettit
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 5:46:46 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "Never got so many announcements from Adobe... "

This is truth. More discounts, more "act now"... I believe they now have extended the Photoshop offer 3 times already.

Hmmmm...


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Chris Pettit
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 5:43:39 pm
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on Jan 31, 2014 at 5:44:08 pm

I think Mike Chambers announcement on this forum that Adobe has no intentions of following up on it's commitment to address policy issues in 2014 has made further discussion somewhat moot. For the moment.

The issues have not, and will not, go away. We're all just playing the waiting game. Can Adobe sustain subscription numbers while ignoring many peoples concerns?

It truly will take quite some time to find out.


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David Lawrence
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 7:21:53 pm

[Chris Pettit] "I think Mike Chambers announcement on this forum that Adobe has no intentions of following up on it's commitment to address policy issues in 2014 has made further discussion somewhat moot. For the moment.

The issues have not, and will not, go away. We're all just playing the waiting game. Can Adobe sustain subscription numbers while ignoring many peoples concerns?

It truly will take quite some time to find out."


Exactly right. Adobe management has essentially told us they have no plans to address our concerns this year. So there's not much to talk about.

_______________________
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Ricardo Marty
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 10:04:08 pm

At the rate that adobe is making discounts, which should get more desperate as time passes, if they make the 4 million subscription mark their income would be half of what they calculated. Wonder what wall street will say then. That is assuming that the students, the curious, one man shops and small studios keep the model even if coersed by adobe either through lower rates or holding their files hostage. I doubt very much that adobe would be able to increase rates and hold the subscribers. It's like carrying a balloon full of water on the head.
Ricardo Marty


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Andy Field
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 10:14:36 pm

zzzzzzz Tiresome argument.

Yes they hear you...

No, there isn't enough protest for them to change their model......

Vote with your dollars - Don't want to pay or use CC? - find the equivalent software somewhere else.

Adobe clearly thinks this is the way to sustain their business - if they're wrong, they'll change - As for us, the quality and usefulness, speed and rapid, continuous improvements of the new cc Premiere, AE and Audition so far outweigh the subscription annoyance that it's a non-factor.

We're worried about doing work fast and efficiently for clients now. The faster we work, the more money we make. a 20 to 50 dollar a month subscription makes that happen.. We are not worried about some imagined time 6 years down the road when the software and computers will have changed and we can't open legacy projects.

The CC programs are outstanding, and getting better with each update. Do I wish we had perpetual licenses? Of course.....is it worth holding our breath and losing out on the improvements and benefits....no.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 11:36:43 pm

Just a tiresome as yours.

Ricardo Marty


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Shane Ross
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Jan 31, 2014 at 11:37:15 pm

There are only so many ways...and times...one can say "I'm not going to use CC as long as it is subscription based." I mean, why pop up every week and say "HEY LOOK AT ME! STILL NOT USING IT!" Silly.

And since I'm at a company that is all Avid, all the time, and I don't have outside jobs where I might consider Adobe...I don't have much to say.

FCX is all the rage only because of the rumor going around about a $100 million dollar movie using it. Otherwise it'd be dead too.

But I can say that if a job came up that PPro would be perfect for, I would opt to use it for it, and pay for either the month (if the job was short), or a discounted year...or just a couple months...to run it through it's paces. But on a separate OS drive so I don't mess with my copy of CS6...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andy Field
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 12:10:54 am

Shane, I can say with experience, that CC and CS6 live peacefully on the same drive - although we've just removed CS6 as CC is virtually light years better in so many ways.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Chris Pettit
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 1:50:43 am

[Andy Field] " I can say with experience, that CC and CS6 live peacefully on the same drive"

Good to hear. Many previous times, Adobe software has NOT lived well with it's old versions on the same OS.

I just had a XEON workstation completely cleaned with a new version of Windows 7 Pro simply because it had old versions of CS 5 and 5.5 and I dont want any more nightmares if/when I install CS6 on that machine.


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Bill Davis
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 12:54:18 am

[Shane Ross] "FCX is all the rage only because of the rumor going around about a $100 million dollar movie using it. Otherwise it'd be dead too. "

Sorry, Shane, I beg to differ.

It's going to increasingly be "the rage" - because it's super efficient and super fast. When the R2DX MacPros get out in the wild in large numbers, X is going to fly out along with them. You can think of the combo as the Mega-iPod of professonal video editing - pushing other systems aside, not because it's inherently more capable - but because it presents a small, simple and justifiably affordable package, that - in a nearly foolproof fashion - provides virtually everything most visual communicators using video today need to have at their fingertips in order to create and communicate visually at a very high standard. (Just add knowing how to run X - and that small insignificant element - talent!)

Performance venues, Corporate meetings, Stage shows, IMAG, Sports promotion, Remote Broadcast. Live to the Web video events, - none of these are "the movies" yet all of them generate massive cash flows and enable high dollar enterprises - and the MacPro running X will put all the power of a full blown tower leashed to an office into a small soft sided leather bag that you can schlepp anywhere.

Oh, and during your down time, you can work on a scene from your dreamed of feature - and if you had skilled people doing the production work - you won't be able to tell the difference between what you're working with on your desk screen and what you see in the theaters!

Really, if all that "non-Hollywood" pro work is being done on X - and there's a workflow in place for the Hollywood shops that DO use it (and probably keep barking about how much money they save on dailies!) how long will it take before it becomes just another option.

Just wait until the "roll up" OLED monitors come along some day! All hell will break loose!

: )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Shane Ross
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 6:46:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "Sorry, Shane, I beg to differ.

It's going to increasingly be "the rage" - because it's super efficient and super fast."


THE FORUM! The think keeping the FCX DEBATE going is that movie...and a few things. That's the only real debate going on now..."is FCX good enough for a Hollywood big budget movie?"

FCX is great on many levels...works for millions of people. Plenty fast.

Sorry...I meant to indicate that THE FORUM is alive and hopping more than this due to that fact...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Connor
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 12:13:17 pm

[Shane Ross] "FCX is all the rage only because of the rumor going around about a $100 million dollar movie using it."

Rubbish! The only person that cares about this is Aindreas

[Shane Ross] "Otherwise it'd be dead too. "

Yes Shane the ONLY thing keeping FCPX "alive" is that movie "rumour"

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Chris Pettit
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 1:37:34 am

[Andy Field] "zzzzzzz Tiresome argument.

Yes they hear you..."


"They"? Is that all you think this is about? Just Adobe?

News Flash: Other people are listening, reading, watching and making decisions in regards to their workflow.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 1:55:22 am

[Chris Pettit] "News Flash: Other people are listening, reading, watching and making decisions in regards to their workflow."

Okay then other folks, listen up: I'm now on Avid, making rookie mistakes. But it works. Still running AE CS6 and intend to remain with it for the indefinite future. It too works.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 2:05:18 am
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Feb 1, 2014 at 2:11:54 am

Okay, this doesn't sound good. Apparently AE CC and Mavericks did not play nicely together, so Adobe put out a bug fix. Todd Kopriva at Adobe writes:

"FYI: We found a problem with the bug-fix update, so we needed to build a new patch and redo some testing. We're still working on this and hope to have a bug-fix update out within a week or two.

"In the meantime, here's a post about some known issues and their workarounds:

"http://adobe.ly/Lyq9D8"


If I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like Adobe issued a bug fix to the bug fix. Yow.
And the known AE CC issues on Macs include the following:
  • Dragging a folder of source items into the Project panel does not import the source items.
  • Output audio sample rate is reset to lowest value (often 8kHz) in Output Module Settings dialog box.
  • QuickTime output files have extra frames at the end when exporting with audio to some codecs.
  • Purging of the disk cache using the commands in After Effects does not function on systems that use comma as decimal separator.
  • In some cases, output file name and location templates are not used on the first try.


Earlier, Andy field wrote, "The CC programs are outstanding, and getting better with each update."

I'll take a wild guess and say he isn't running Mavericks. Or doesn't use AE.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 3:24:43 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Feb 1, 2014 at 3:25:02 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "If I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like Adobe issued a bug fix to the bug fix. Yow."

Not uncommon in the software world.

Or do you expect 100% perfection in everything because you yourself deliver as such?


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Andy Field
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 3:41:39 pm

No I'm NOT using Maverick. Heard the problems and avoiding.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 4:54:37 pm

[Andy Field] "No I'm NOT using Maverick. Heard the problems and avoiding."

Wait, wait, wait, wait. So even though there are software updates available you didn't immediately install them because there might be bugs? Amazing! More people should do this. ;)

With so many updates available at the push of a button (CC, mobile apps, variety of Apple software, etc.,) I swear all common sense with regards to updating went out the window.

I remember a number of years ago the company I worked at was having problems with their Avid Adrenaline systems randomly spitting out duplicate frames from laying to tape under certain conditions. We spoke w/Avid's tech support and they said they were aware of the issue and there was a patch available for it. Unfortunately the patch itself caused a couple of other problems that were much worse so Avid recommend we not install the patch unless we had no other choice. We found a work around until Avid was able to patch the patch.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 5:07:26 pm

You're right, Andrew. This is the most common thing in the software world - when you've got tens of thousands of lines of code, the software testers cannot possibly hope to try every possibility which might cause a new problem. It happens. All the way back to when I was using a Dubner system for on-air graphics - we'd get an update, and something new would break. The cool thing about Dubner was that you could call the programmer on the phone and tell him, and he'd issue a patch the next day. Those days are gone...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 5:57:54 pm

Wonder how many versions of the CC apps are in the wild now that people are experiencing the the great "advantage" of constant updates? What does this do for compatibility within a single facility, let alone sharing projects between unaffiliated ones? Patches on patches, how does one keep track with no reference releases as in the past? Of course there were point updates, but not a constant churn.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.4, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, 2 Hexacore MacPros 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 1, 2014 at 9:09:59 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "The cool thing about Dubner was that you could call the programmer on the phone and tell him, and he'd issue a patch the next day. Those days are gone..."

I'm not familiar with Dubner, but I remember hearing similar stories about Shake before Apple bought them. There is something to be said about relatively small companies that serve a distinct niche.


[Jim Wiseman] "Wonder how many versions of the CC apps are in the wild now that people are experiencing the the great "advantage" of constant updates? What does this do for compatibility within a single facility, let alone sharing projects between unaffiliated ones?"

Changes to all of the apps so far have been point upgrades (PPro is version 7.x, AE 12.x etc.,). AFAIK major changes will still result in a new version number.

Within a single facility I hope there is one person in charge of maintaing the computers so that every machine is on the same page, but within CC subscribers there will probably be more homogeny as far as versions go since the software is already paid for. As long as the new version is stable there's really no reason not to install it.

It surprisingly has been a bit of a stress reliever knowing that the software will continue to be upgraded and I don't have to worry about weighing the pros/cons of paying for an upgrade or sitting out a cycle.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 2, 2014 at 2:13:27 am

It surprisingly has been a bit of a stress reliever knowing that the software will continue to be upgraded and I don't have to worry about weighing the pros/cons of paying for an upgrade or sitting out a cycle. It surprisingly has been a bit of a stress reliever knowing that the software will continue to be upgraded and I don't have to worry about weighing the pros/cons of paying for an upgrade or sitting out a cycle.

Of course not if you are in your 2nd year of cc you have already paid for almost 4 upgrades.

Ricardo Marty


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Chris Pettit
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 2, 2014 at 2:41:31 am

[Ricardo Marty] "It surprisingly has been a bit of a stress reliever knowing that the software will continue to be upgraded and I don't have to worry about weighing the pros/cons of paying for an upgrade or sitting out a cycle"

Well said. I've bought a fair amount of software in the last 12 months. And none of it was rapidly updated, automatic, "get the latest in the speed of light" variety. In other words, none of it was Adobe.

Just 'ready to go' releases that were significant improvements over previous functionality with value worth supporting with my investment. Simple concept really.

No better example than Xparticles for C4D (fantastic software!):
http://www.x-particle.com/

http://www.digitalskye.net


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 2, 2014 at 2:41:37 am

[Ricardo Marty] "Of course not if you are in your 2nd year of cc you have already paid for almost 4 upgrades."

How do you figure? Master Collection is $2600 to purchase and $525 per annual upgrade (if you skip a year you don't get the upgrade price). Production Premium is $1900 to purchase and $375 per annual upgrade (again, no skipping if you want the upgrade price).

CC is $600/yr regular price though the discounted price of $360/yr is easy to obtain (and maintain as long as they keep extending the offers).

For a new user, or someone upgrading from CS 5 or older, it's around the 5 year mark (compared to Production Premium) that CC will will start to be more expensive based on todays prices. Comparing apples to apples (CC to Master Collection) and that adds a few more years to the equation.


One thing on my wish list is for Adobe to offer smaller packages for less money (basically the CS suites) instead just the one-size-fits-all Master Collection.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 12:02:07 am

Comparing apples to apples?
Necessary... indeed.
There are no other fruits for sale.
Take (all) the apples or leave.
(How many of former users ordered a Master Collection? And how many can handle all the Apps in a professional way?)


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Chris Pettit
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 2, 2014 at 2:31:18 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Wait, wait, wait, wait. So even though there are software updates available you didn't immediately install them because there might be bugs? Amazing! More people should do this. ;)"

Andrew, how is this not an argument against the "rapid updates are great" philosophy? Aren't you saying exactly the same thing a lot of us who are in no hurry for such things are saying?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 2, 2014 at 7:37:44 am

[Chris Pettit] "Andrew, how is this not an argument against the "rapid updates are great" philosophy? Aren't you saying exactly the same thing a lot of us who are in no hurry for such things are saying?"

Not really. The Adobe updates have been fine... unless you upgraded to Mavericks w/o waiting to see if everything played okay with Mavericks. ;) For people that bought new machines with Mavericks... well, it was nice back in days of yore when Apple let users choose which version of the OS they wanted to run. Apple's no-rollback policy has certainly influenced my Mac buying. If I need a new machine I always make sure to buy it before a new OS rolls out because who knows what sorts of trouble it will cause and how long it will take to fix it. But back on topic...

I'm working on machines with 10.7 and 10.8 and have no complaints. I'm sure there are bugs I'm not hitting because of my workflow, but all software has bugs. With regards to the pace of the updates, I still very much like the idea of getting updates as they become ready. I think it's better than all apps sticking to a ready-or-not release schedule which was usually followed up by big point updates to fix all the deadline induced loose ends.

And that's not just Adobe either, before everyone got day-one install happy I remember it being a matter of course to wait a month or so for the first point update before updating. Rule 1 was don't update mid project and Rule 2 was don't update right off the bat. Hell, even many video games (and video came consoles) have day-one updates because products were shipped before they were ready.


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David Lawrence
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 2, 2014 at 4:52:26 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Rule 2 was don't update right off the bat."

Seems like Rule 2 is exactly the point Chris just made.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 9:39:20 am

And while we all keep waiting for Adobe to give us permanent licenses back, Lightworks, who used to sell yearly license at around $69, they added the option to buy permanent license. Isn't that saying something?


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Gary Huff
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 2:30:38 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] "Lightworks, who used to sell yearly license at around $69, they added the option to buy permanent license. Isn't that saying something?"

Not really. The license is for a specific OS and is tied to your hardware. So if you change out your motherboard or replace an entire unit, it's another $280 to shell out. Now, you do get two activations per, so as long as you're not installed on both a laptop and a desktop you can change out the hardware.

Someone like me who was routinely working both Windows and Mac (desktop/laptop) before I switched to the nMBPr as my sole machine would have had to pay $560 to get that up and running. And then be stuck at 11 (not sure how fast the Lightworks team increments version numbers).

Rather like Microsoft's Office 2013 before the outcry made them change it.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 5:55:12 pm
Last Edited By Gustavo Bermudas on Feb 3, 2014 at 5:55:50 pm

[Gary Huff] "Not really. The license is for a specific OS and is tied to your hardware. So if you change out your motherboard or replace an entire unit, it's another $280 to shell out. Now, you do get two activations per, so as long as you're not installed on both a laptop and a desktop you can change out the hardware."

In their FAQ says
"My system drive failed and has been replaced and reinstalled, but now when I enter my Username and Password to sign in I receive an error, what do I do?
You will lose your license if the hard drive is replaced. To help us assist you, please click the "Report a problem" link at the top of this page and fill in the form provided.


I wonder what "Report a Problem" would do though...I mean, I had problems like that with Adobe too when moving to another computer, it all depends how easy the process is, I actually have that problem with Foundry as well, but if they don't let you move the license you bought to another computer that's not good.

In any case, I think the fact that Lightworks, who was a subscribing option first (at least in this new iteration) is moving to offer perpetual to me that's saying "hey, subscription based software has a bad rep now". I think by NAB we will see a Mac OS alpha release to the public, I mean, if not by NAB when? And if that's so it will be the most talked news this year. Unless of course Autodesk releases Smoke with Lustre for Mac as well, but I doubt that


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Gary Huff
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 11:35:41 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] " And if that's so it will be the most talked news this year."

I highly doubt that. I see more talk of "Oh, that's interesting." and then they move on to what they were originally using.

I just talked with someone the other day who is on CC (at full price) and loves it. They never heard of Lightworks.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 4:26:07 pm

[David Lawrence] "Seems like Rule 2 is exactly the point Chris just made."

I guess I don't see how Rule 2 negates Adobe rolling out upgrades/updates as they become ready. Like I said before, I've enjoyed multiple updates to the CC versions since they launched in June all while observing Rule 2. I also observed Rule 2 when Apple rolled out Mavericks which is why I'm not having the problems Dave brought up a few posts ago. ;)


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Gary Huff
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 11:34:44 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I also observed Rule 2 when Apple rolled out Mavericks which is why I'm not having the problems Dave brought up a few posts ago."

I have not observed this rule and so far I'm running fine.

Though I do realize it's a risk.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 3, 2014 at 11:49:08 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "If I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like Adobe issued a bug fix to the bug fix. Yow."

Not uncommon in the software world.

Or do you expect 100% perfection in everything because you yourself deliver as such?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

When Adobe delivered software in a box they were very careful to release a version that was fully vetted. These smaller more frequent updates can lead to new bugs.

Similar to constantly revising the same video....fix one thing, break another.

It is entirely possible that Adobe will slow down the updates in favor of more thoroughly vetted updates.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 3:04:15 am
Last Edited By Todd Kopriva on Feb 4, 2014 at 3:09:35 am

> When Adobe delivered software in a box they were very careful to release a version that was fully vetted.


In fact, the recent rapid CC updates have had fewer bugs than their CS6, CS5.5, and CS5 predecessors, largely because we are devoting more of our time to stability and such than to whiz-bang features.

Yes, we're talking more about the bugs now than we did then, but that's not because there are more bugs; it's because we are freer to talk in public about what's wrong, what's being fixed, and when the fixes can be expected.

Our crash rate is _much_ lower with After Effects CC (12.2) than it was with After Effects CS6---about half. We have far fewer bugs without workarounds now.

I'm sorry (and a little frustrated) that my recent post about known issues was perceived as a sign that the current version is worse than previous versions. If I had tried to do such a post about After Effects CS5, CS5.5, or CS6, it would have been a longer post. (We've nailed down a lot of the CS6 bugs, but only after 4 updates, with a fifth coming.)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 3:44:38 am

Todd,
Thanks for the clarification. I assumed the CC updates would be more stable in part because the teams can work on them until ready as opposed to forced adherence to the CS release cycle.


Rich,
I think you have some rose-colored software glasses on as all software has bugs and sometimes the bugs don't get fixed on the first effort. Case in point, Mac OS 10.9 has broken Mail.app for many users. Yes, Apple's new operating system broke Apple's own email program. Apple released update 10.9.1 but bugs in Mail.app remain. OS 10.9.2 is in beta and users hope it will fully fix Mail.app. If Apple can't even create a bug/glitch free experience w/in its own ecosystem I don't see why 3rd party devs should have their feet held to the fire for lack of perfection.


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David Lawrence
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 4:26:13 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I think you have some rose-colored software glasses on as all software has bugs and sometimes the bugs don't get fixed on the first effort."

All very true.

I think a big part of the problem here is these applications (I truly hate the fad of calling desktop software "apps") are no longer sold as applications. They're positioned by Adobe as "services".

We've discussed this here before. IMHO, a deal-breaking bug in rental software is no different than a service outage from any other service provider. If my cell phone service has a long outage, my cell provider usually offers me a refund for the service time lost. Does Adobe compensate CC subscribers for time lost when software "services" fail?

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 6:21:18 am
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Feb 4, 2014 at 7:44:41 am

[David Lawrence] "We've discussed this here before. IMHO, a deal-breaking bug in rental software is no different than a service outage from any other service provider. If my cell phone service has a long outage, my cell provider usually offers me a refund for the service time lost. Does Adobe compensate CC subscribers for time lost when software "services" fail?
"


That's a good question. On a related note, how many venders let you return opened/installed software for a refund? ;)


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David Lawrence
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 5:47:00 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "On a related note, how many venders let you return opened/installed software for a refund? ;)"

Actually, software with a money-back guarantee is very common. ;)

http://www.google.com/search?q=software+money+back+guarantee

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David Lawrence
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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 5, 2014 at 1:02:20 am

I've never used WinZip for editing. How well do you think it does? Xtrabuild sounds like a good database option, but I wonder if it would make a good replacement for Resolve. ;)

Outside of the 30-day trial (which most software companies offer for free) getting your money back on a software purchase is pretty much a futile task. If you find a show stopping bug three months after purchase yer boned (at least in the US; Europe has much better consumer protection laws).


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 10:45:00 am
Last Edited By Rainer Schubert on Feb 4, 2014 at 10:53:31 am

[David Lawrence] "I truly hate the fad of calling desktop software "apps""

Me too, but...

All the "Apps" of all the Stores of all the chaining Hardware (Apple, Google, WIN, Android) are named that way.
iTunes & Co try to chain your music to their tools & hardware (...creating hassle, if you try to move somewhere else...).
Some Apps are bringing your photos into dependency.
Mostly they also provide somewhat like "Cloud"-Services.
(I truly hate the fad of calling Adobe Software "Cloud" :)
Adobes "Apps" try to chain your work/creations to their tools/Apps.
So, where is the difference?

An Application is something serious...


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 10:50:10 am

I try to believe...

But, when I have a look at the belonging forums on the Adobe website, I get the feeling there were never so much discussions about bugs...
But may be, it´s because there are much more users now (as you stated) & many of them are newcomers.
Or many of the users are only playing a bit / testing the Apps, they have to pay for now...
(that ones, who only need 2 or 3 of the package - users of former Suites)


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Richard Herd
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 5, 2014 at 10:14:00 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "CS6 bugs, but only after 4 updates, with a fifth coming."

YES!

What about Audition and Speedgrade CS6 flavor? Will those continue to receive updates and bug squashes too?

I found a weird one in Audition yesterday: and I sent in the report.

Audition crashed (but should have given a warning), when I bussed two stereo tracks to a stereo bus, and then side chained that bus as mono to a fourth track. A warning should have said, "Hey man, your bus is stereo not mono. You can either switch the side chain to match or open the audio file and convert to mono."


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 5, 2014 at 10:18:03 pm

> What about Audition and Speedgrade CS6 flavor? Will those continue to receive updates and bug squashes too?


I'm not as directly tied to the Audition and SpeedGrade teams as I am to After Effects, AME, and Premiere Pro, so I'm not sure about their specific plans.

I can say that we are as a company committed to continuing to support CS6, since we're still selling it and we know that some people want to stay on it because they want a perpetually licensed version.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Richard Herd
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 5, 2014 at 10:26:17 pm

Please note: I am hoping my accounting department moves us to CC. Probably next year, and I am heavily pushing Adobe Anywhere. Just today, a colleague needed an old project file and he could not get the FC6 into FC7; I had something else to do, so they figured something out. But I could only Imagine Adobe Anywhere and logging into productions.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 13, 2014 at 7:58:15 pm

The After Effects CC (12.2.1) bug-fix update is available:
http://adobe.ly/AE_CC_1221

It fixes the known issues discussed earlier in this thread.

Note the part at the end of that page about a crucial update for the Creative Cloud desktop application, which addresses some severe problems with AME, Premiere Pro, and After Effects.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Gary Huff
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 3:29:13 am
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Feb 4, 2014 at 3:29:40 am

[Rich Rubasch] "When Adobe delivered software in a box they were very careful to release a version that was fully vetted."

[Todd Kopriva] "In fact, the recent rapid CC updates have had fewer bugs than their CS6, CS5.5, and CS5 predecessors"

I do believe this is called for in Rich's honor.







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Rich Rubasch
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 4:52:07 pm

Rich,
I think you have some rose-colored software glasses on as all software has bugs and sometimes the bugs don't get fixed on the first effort.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been a fan of Adobe since the mid 1990's so I DO have rose colored glasses when I talk about the incredible software Adobe creates for us creatives. Use it every day.

Will not subscribe to my software and have simply noticed more chatter about bugs on these "mini" releases often enough to take notice.

With my boxed software that had perpetuity I could remain on the sidelines as long as I needed for the early adopters to shake out the kinks. Then jump in. I think I skipped CS 5.0 and went from CS 4.5 right to 5.5.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 5:13:17 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Feb 4, 2014 at 5:16:42 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "With my boxed software that had perpetuity I could remain on the sidelines as long as I needed for the early adopters to shake out the kinks. Then jump in. I think I skipped CS 5.0 and went from CS 4.5 right to 5.5."

There are no forced upgrades on CC so people like me, that don't feel like being a trailblazer, can wait for the more bold users upgrade and report back. Also since CC isn't on a fixed release cycle the upgrades/updates aren't artificially held back (or hurried out the door) so there's no more "Well, I don't like XYZ about this release so hopefully they'll fix it next year when the new version comes out". It's more an on going process as opposed to getting a locked product and, like it or love it, waiting a year (largely in the dark) for another locked product.

FWIW users skipping versions is a big reason why Adobe changed its upgrade policy (no more upgrade pricing if you skip a version) and eventually went all subscription.

IMO the only thing Adobe is really missing is a buyout option (ex after a few years of on going CC subscription you can get a perpetual license for the current version of CC at no charge. Pricing tiers would be nice to (basically lower cost bundles like the Creative Suites). And more cloud services too as Behance and cloud storage don't really give me anything I can't already get from various web hosting companies and Dropbox/MS Onedrive/Google Drive.


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David Lawrence
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 6:00:16 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "There are no forced upgrades on CC "

[Andrew Kimery] "FWIW users skipping versions is a big reason why Adobe changed its upgrade policy (no more upgrade pricing if you skip a version) and eventually went all subscription."

ummm... don't these statements contradict one another? ;)

[Andrew Kimery] "IMO the only thing Adobe is really missing is a buyout option (ex after a few years of on going CC subscription you can get a perpetual license for the current version of CC at no charge. Pricing tiers would be nice to (basically lower cost bundles like the Creative Suites). And more cloud services too as Behance and cloud storage don't really give me anything I can't already get from various web hosting companies and Dropbox/MS Onedrive/Google Drive."

Yes Yes Yes!!! We agree :)

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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 7:19:28 pm

Right....forgot to add that we are Production Premium only and would love to see a pricing option for just those apps.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 6, 2014 at 3:55:05 am
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on Feb 6, 2014 at 4:11:19 am

[Rich Rubasch] "Production Premium only and would love to see a pricing option for just those apps"

About the only thing that seems remotely possible (at or after NAB) would be a video production pricing (total speculation). An offer for a discounted version of the production apps along the lines of the original production premium.

But based on what Adobe has come up with so far, including their precious photographer market, I suspect it would be yet another "limited time offer" instead of a secure, long term commitment to the video / motion graphics market at secure prices long term.

This whole process of trying to entice enough subscribers through timed out, "act now" offers in order to build subscriptions sounds like selling Ginsu knifes on late night cable TV.

They should just figure out what your product offering is going to be, what it will cost, and what the terms are. Decide how many of us you can afford to piss off, do so, and then live with it.

In the meantime, it's hard to take seriously a company that keeps extending it's "limited time offers":



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 4, 2014 at 11:54:40 pm

[David Lawrence] "ummm... don't these statements contradict one another? ;)"

I meant for CC users can use whatever version of the apps they want. Obviously the cost/benefit resides in staying current but no updates are pushed on the user. If I chose too I could still be running PPro 7.0 right now even though the current version is 7.2.1. I see many people saying they are worried about Adobe forcing them to upgrade when they don't want to (i.e. mid project) but that doesn't happen. Adobe will let you know when updates are available but installing them is up to the user and is not mandatory.

[David Lawrence] "Yes Yes Yes!!! We agree :)"

See, I'm not a total heathen. lol


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Richard Herd
Re: Hellooooooooo?
on Feb 5, 2014 at 9:59:18 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "increase rates and hold the subscribers"

Importantly, that is a business they can manage with simple supply and demand.

FYI: NASDAQ: ADBE $61/share.


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