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The Illusion of Math

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Nathan Bezner
The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 4:52:44 pm

I appreciate that Dennis has opened a thread for Creative Cloud Q&A, and I don't want to dilute the goodwill by posting what is essentially another angry customer on a semi-rant, but I do want to address what I consider to be misinformation from Adobe (and that CNet article with the 'math' section) regarding the pricing structure of Creative Cloud and what really, really annoys me about the subscription move.

A suite to suite upgrade may cost around $599, if you're upgrading the Master Collection. However, after digging through my receipts going back to 2008, my suite to suite upgrades have been as follows (directly purchased from Adobe, most downloaded without a box):

$1376.94 in 2008 - moved from AE only to CS4 Production Premium, full buy-in purchase price
$645.42 in 2010 - Upgrade to CS Production Premium 5
$427.02 in 2011 - Upgrade to CS Production Premium 5.5
402.19 in 2012 - Upgrade to CS Production Premium CS6

Total: $2851.57

$49.99 * 12 months = $599.88
$599.88 * 5 years = $2,999.40

Therefore, according to every receipt I have over the past five years after moving to the Creative Suite, I will be paying an extra $147.83. Now, this may not seem like a lot, and granted, I would get access to a multitude of programs I neither need nor want, but there's one big difference:

For less money, I can still open my projects if I stop paying. It doesn't even matter how much less, just the fact that it even IS less. Here's an example situation: let's say 2013 sucks financially and I have to push my software acquisition to a later date. With CS6, I can still open my projects without needing to agree, a year in advance, to another version. Furthermore, I don't need to pay a $74.99 stipend just to open my projects should I need access to them. As for the "use a trial to check your projects," I'm assuming you can't use a trial indefinitely, unless you completely wipe the system or track down every Adobe component on your system. I'd say this is a one-time option, going forward, otherwise we'd all be using the "cloud" for free.

I already download all the newest versions of CS I purchase, so the cloud is exactly the same for me in that regard. I get constant updates via that little "A" that appears in my menu bar once a week, so the potential for online upgrading of features exists, just not within Adobe's corporate structure (apparently, so I've heard, no confirmation).

Now, I realize that pricing varies across the world. Some areas pay a LOT more, some less, some don't even pay tax (I've included the final bill from my receipts, with tax included). I know it's going to happen if anybody responds, so let's look at the MSRP of CS Production Premium in 2008. For me, it would've been $1907.98 with tax, leaving me with a total of $3382.61 at full, retail MSRP (which I have never, EVER paid. Ever. There are CONSTANT rebates from Adobe and other providers - if that MSRP is accurate, I must've hit a sale when I originally purchased).

That would be a price difference of $383.21. Ah, now we're getting somewhere - that IS a savings! But then, take this into account: you're losing the ability to open your projects should you not be able to afford an upgrade (year long contract or monthly purchase) at that time. So, the $1799 MSRP of a production premium buy-in becomes moot: you lose the ability to get something you've paid for, it shouldn't be figured into the numbers.

That makes the Creative Cloud, in actuality, a perpetual upgrade machine without ability to buy in.

I'm not sure what the upgrade price for CS4 was in 2008. I'd assume it was similar to CS5 (which puts it in the wheelhouse of the $599 territory) - $645.42. Let's do those numbers again:

$2,120.05 over five years. Compared to $2,999.40. Even if you throw in 2009, it's STILL less than the cloud's five year pricing. Once again, I realize you're getting access to other programs (I will neither need nor use) for the price bump.

This is what bothers me so much about the cloud: the pricing, and being told to be happy with the savings. For a great many of us, this is not a savings, and we keep getting the same market-speak shoved down our throats. In the end, we are losing something absolutely essential, and are now paying more for it.

What justifies this? The ability to keep files on a cloud server? The ability to share ideas on an Adobe social network? Don't Apple and Steam provide similar benefits at no cost, with options to upgrade for a fee (whether it be purchasing software or more cloud space)?

Does that make sense? Do people understand why some of us might have a problem with this equation?

For me, there's a very simple fix for this entire thing: implement more tiered pricing (you know, OPTIONS, for those of us in smaller markets who don't make as much as you guys with big old studios), and come up with a way for us to open our files without needing to pay a stipend in perpetuity.

I still think the "you stop a subscription, you stop cloud updates and upgrades but can still use your software up to that point" method would be best. Either that, or bring the price way down, more in line with the "perpetual upgrade" model.

Now, feel free to tell me how stupid I am for not being thankful that Adobe is improving my life.

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Tim Kolb
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 5:10:09 pm

I don't think it's a matter of "stupid".

I do think that on some level, the pricing structure changes character depending on how long an arc you draw...some of us are old and still have our handful of After Effects floppy discs that together represent a 2000.00+ investment in a piece of software that is of laughable capability by today's standards...thereby affecting the perception of how "permanent" any of this is for us old guys.

I think that Adobe proved with the Collections, then the Creative Suites, that users that buy an expanded grouping of software will start to use more of those packages...around the time of CS1 (Premiere Pro v1 in the "Video Collection" at that time) the idea was that AE users largely dismissed Premiere/Pro as an editor and Premiere/Pro users were scared of the complexity of After Effects...the software suites did break down that barrier.

I think that Adobe may be thinking along those same lines with the all-encompassing suite in CC, but I would tend to agree that in practice, few users will see as much value out of having the extra software as they would from a smaller application grouping for a lower price...or customers would likely at least appreciate the option.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 5:22:12 pm

To be completely honest, I still have my After Effects 3.1 box. It's completely useless, but it was my first major software purchase so I keep it for nostalgia's sake. My wife would like nothing more than to see it removed from the clutter of my office and burned (along with a handful of my childhood action figures - Ninja Turtles, etc).

And I absolutely agree that the advent of the suites allowed for some of us to dabble in other areas we wouldn't have otherwise. I've been mocking Premiere ever since I abandoned version 4 for FCP. Little did I know, it was actually awesome. With the FCPX thing going down, I was able to rediscover a software package and find out it was actually amazing now! That would not have happened without the Production Premium.

However, yeah, I'm never going to use Dreamweaver or InDesign. Given some of the comments about the potential "photo" cloud bundles and what-not, I really hope they start implementing those tiers quickly, given the outcry. It would probably do them well to get in front of the problems people have and come up with some sort of a compromise.

I'm not adverse to compromise!

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Clint Wardlow
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 5:24:44 pm

I definitely think Adobe needs to fine tune its pricing structure.

One of the least compelling arguments to my mind is the "well, you don't have to upgrade if you don't want to or you machine can't handle it."

So in other words "yeah, I can keep using out-of-date software for the same price as the new software." Kind of defeats the whole purpose of a cloud subscription for the consumer.

Adobe really does need to seriously look at how they price and give more options than full subscription $50.00 or one software $20.00.


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Gary Huff
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 5:44:32 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Adobe really does need to seriously look at how they price and give more options than full subscription $50.00 or one software $20.00."

Yes. Does anyone remember when Adobe first tried this with CS 5.5? The pricing tier has been strongly adjusted since then.

With subscription pricing customers can use flagship products, such as Adobe Photoshop® for as little as US$35 per month, Adobe Design Premium CS5.5 for US$95 per month, Adobe Creative Suite 5.5 Master Collection for US$129 per month.

Obviously, we're getting what was originally priced at $129 for $49 now, but it does show that the prices have been strongly in flux for what is paid by month. I think it needs to happen again for those who don't need everything (I use Premiere, After Effects, Encore, Photoshop, Lightroom, and the occasional Illustrator because clients always send me resolution poor PNGs of their logos).


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Tim Kolb
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 6:18:07 pm

[Gary Huff] "Obviously, we're getting what was originally priced at $129 for $49 now, but it does show that the prices have been strongly in flux for what is paid by month. "

With software, all you need to lower prices is a lot more customers...figuring out where the sweet spot is is the catch...

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Frank Gothmann
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 6:34:50 pm

I think it is very important to also note that with previous licenses you were allowed to install on two machines but only use one at a time.
With cloud, you are allowed to run both installs at the same time and they can be on different operating systems. So you can edit on Premiere on one machine and render on another. Granted, you may not have two machines, then it's irrelevant. For me and others who do have several licenses at machines in use, that an instant cost saver right there, especially if you are in a mixed OS environment.
Now... again... I, too, would prefer a one-time payment for my upgrades but price is not one of the reasons.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 6:54:05 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "I think it is very important to also note that with previous licenses you were allowed to install on two machines but only use one at a time."

Just to be sure, I opened After Effects on both my laptop and iMac (with the same license), doodled around, rendered and quit. You could always run both copies at the same time, as far as I'm aware. Unless I'm breaking some EULA rule I didn't read somewhere, the ability exists.

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 6:57:47 pm

Nathan -

From my understanding, under the terms of the EULA you are allowed to have the software installed on two computers, but not to run them at the same time - example: I might have one install on my office workstation, and one on my laptop for use at home. While you're not supposed to run them at the same time, I believe that Adobe has always used the honor system, and not policed it, or built in a mechanism, such as some software used to have, where as soon as the second install was detected, the company disabled it. I believe that was a Discreet Logic "feature".

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:04:20 pm

Wow... I've been breaking the EULA for a very long time, in that case.

Which makes me wonder... did they simply remove that line for Cloud users, and now it's a feature? If so, a hearty ha-ha from me.

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:05:59 pm

If that's indeed the case, Nathan, a whole lot of users have just doubled their money...that's two seats for the price of one...if that's the case...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Frank Gothmann
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:15:06 pm

It is the case.
Here it is from the horse's (or rather Kevin Monahan's mouth):
http://forums.adobe.com/message/5304178#5304178

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:33:38 pm

Am I the only one to find that kind of cheesy?

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Frank Gothmann
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:36:02 pm

What's cheesy about that? I don't follow.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:44:13 pm

The concept that running Adobe software concurrently on two systems is a point for the Cloud. It was a structure that was already in place, something you could already do. All that happened was the EULA was changed to make it "legal" in the eyes of Adobe. If that is, indeed, one of the purported features, I find that cheesy.

I could already do it. They changed some verbiage. Why not change verbiage on the CS6 license? As far as I can tell, it's a completely artificial point in favor of the Cloud.

If I'm getting a new product, and one of the points in favor of the new product is that Adobe changed some legalese on their end to provide something that was already in existence, it's not a very exciting feature. If it's used to actually promote the new product as a reason to move in that direction, it becomes cheesy.

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:57:01 pm

Why would you find that "cheesy" Nathan - you obviously never read the EULA (who wants to for that matter), and you violated Adobe's terms of agreement for who knows how long? I think that would elicit a "whew, I never got bagged", not a "cheesy" comment. Adobe is giving us something with the new agreement we didn't have before. I might find that useful if I'm buried in a project and I need to have a freelancer come in and create some motion graphics on my laptop. Looks good to me...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:29:33 pm

I find it cheesy because CS6 and CC are both capable of the exact same feature (and currently have it enabled with some of their software). The only thing holding CS6 back from that particular feature is a user agreement. All they're giving us is a revision of text that isn't even part of the software package itself.

And if Adobe really wants to come after me for violating something within the user agreement by rendering on one machine and working on another simultaneously after close to 15 years of money spent on their company, let them. I'm really not sweating it.

So, no, of course the feature being available is not cheesy. Presenting it as a feature for the next version when the major change was the verbiage of the user agreement, while keeping the agreement in place for CS6 even though it's the same thing, that's kind of cheesy. You know, in the same way that repackaging Cap'n Crunch and calling it NEW AND IMPROVED! is cheesy. It doesn't mean that I won't stop making it happ'n with the Cap'n, it just means I realize it's a marketing tactic. So, yes, it is cheesy.

And yes, I will continue to render on one machine while working on another. If that makes me some kind of crazy illegal rebel, so be it, but I honestly don't think Adobe will care.

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:39:22 pm

I haven't really seen them present it as a feature - I feel that it's a feature, because I'm an honest guy who has been following the EULA for all the years I've used Adobe. When you install the software, you have to check the "I agree" switch there, so you are bound to the licensing agreement unless you click "no". If you're the type who has no problem violating licensing agreements, more power to you...I'm also faithful to my wife...call me old fashioned...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:43:01 pm

I suppose that's where we differ, because I LOVE cheating on my wife. All the time. Every friday, I go out and find all the prostitutes I can and say, "I would like to exchange monies with you in order to cheat on my wife, because I love it so much!"

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:49:00 pm

Good man, Nathan - but you know you could save all the money you spend treating the STDs, and spend it on a subscription plan...:>)

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 9:58:20 pm

Haha - good point!

SO LONG PROSTITUTES!

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Clint Wardlow
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:52:20 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "When you install the software, you have to check the "I agree" switch there, so you are bound to the licensing agreement unless you click "no""

I think part of the problem is that a lot of folks press I agree without reading the user license agreement. They just want to get the software up and running. I think that certain things in Facebook and Youtube (where folk agreed without considering the ramifications) may be making folks look closer at such things.

Except for a youthful indiscretion many years ago, I also try my best to adhere to EULA. But I also have to admit there have been times I pressed "I agree" without really reading what I was agreeing to.

However, in the internet age, I think that is a luxury no longer afforded us.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:57:52 pm

I agree totally, Clint - half the time, I just scroll the panel down and click "I agree". And half the time, I can't make heads or tails of the legalese that's present in the EULA...I'm no lawyer, that's for sure...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Clint Wardlow
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 9:08:35 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "I agree totally, Clint - half the time, I just scroll the panel down and click "I agree". And half the time, I can't make heads or tails of the legalese that's present in the EULA...I'm no lawyer, that's for sure..."

To show you how clueless I was. For the longest time I was unaware a software could be loaded on two machines. I painstakingly would uninstall software from my old computer whenever I purchased a new one I guess you should do if you ever sell that machine, but I prefer to keep the old machines to add to my impressive computer graveyard.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 9:22:11 pm

I've got a pretty decent graveyard myself, going back to a pocket TRS-80 that I bought in the seventies to learn Basic programming language - I didn't get very far with it, but it was fun...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Gary Huff
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 10:09:37 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "...I'm also faithful to my wife...call me old fashioned..."

Not very diplomatic, are you?


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 10:44:30 pm

As the situation dictates, generally...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:01:51 pm

[Nathan Bezner] "All that happened was the EULA was changed to make it "legal" in the eyes of Adobe. If that is, indeed, one of the purported features, I find that cheesy.

I could already do it. They changed some verbiage. Why not change verbiage on the CS6 license? As far as I can tell, it's a completely artificial point in favor of the Cloud."


Nathan,
Consider this: not only can run 2 installations of Creative Cloud on 2 different computers, but they can be either/or Mac and Windows. If Mac users had a PC they wanted to install CS applications on, it used to require a totally separate license. Although it may not improve your situation, it saves costs for a lot of users, and I think that's pretty cool.

Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:04:47 pm

Hi Kevin, I'm sure it will help some users. But what about Clint's point and mine above. What would stop two different people from sharing a license? The honor system? That usually isn't good enough.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:19:58 pm

There's a reason I didn't respond to that portion of the original comment - being cross-platform is a very cool feature, and actually one of the plusses in my trying to decide whether or not I'll be migrating to After Effects in the Cloud (I kind of have to, it's the one program in the package that is a without-a-doubt necessity) with the hopes that some of my other issues will be addressed.

Obviously, this is something that CS could not do that CC can. That is a legitimate point in favor of the Cloud subscription, and something that would be EXTREMELY helpful for me, as I do have a Windows box I'd like to put AE on.

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:56:30 pm

[Nathan Bezner] "There's a reason I didn't respond to that portion of the original comment - being cross-platform is a very cool feature, and actually one of the plusses in my trying to decide whether or not I'll be migrating to After Effects in the Cloud (I kind of have to, it's the one program in the package that is a without-a-doubt necessity) with the hopes that some of my other issues will be addressed. "

OK, I just wanted to make sure that this is the more important portion of the EULA. BTW, I haven't heard us touting that you could formerly run apps on one computer at a time "and now that has changed!", however, it is in the FAQ, so it's info people want to be more clear on. It's not a marketing point, in other words. At least, I don't perceive it to be.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Nathan Bezner
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 10:04:56 pm

I've begun conflating message board posts and discussion with marketing for Creative Cloud - in all honesty, I've probably seen it as a point for moving to the cloud so much, I began to see it as marketing. As I recall, I have seen it in no advertisements, only on the faq. I took it as, specifically, one of the marketing points for the Cloud, but I am probably misrepresenting Adobe in that regard - apologies!

Though I still believe that not allowing it for CS6 and allowing it for Creative Cloud is either some kind of ridiculous, arbitrary legal issue that makes absolutely no sense, or a planned effort at making the Cloud look better by a marketing exec somewhere along the line. I know you don't know the answer to either possibility, so let's just chalk it up to a conspiratorial thought on my part.

Keep in mind, I WANT to believe!

Nathan Bezner
Nightowl Pictures


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 11, 2013 at 12:04:41 am

[Nathan Bezner] "Keep in mind, I WANT to believe!"

Wait 'til you get your hands on the trial. Once you rip through that C4D/AE integration, you'll be praising, "Hallelujah!"

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:52:43 pm

From that post:
Regarding using two computers at the same time with Creative Cloud applications: You can use Creative Cloud desktop applications on two computers at once, regardless of operating system, for the individual associated with the Creative Cloud membership. See the product license agreements page for more information: http://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/

See also the Creative Cloud FAQ under the heading 'Can I use the software I download from Creative Cloud on multiple computers?' http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html


Yes, on the previous EULA you could install CS software on 2 computers (of the same OS) at the same time, however, you were not supposed to run them concurrently. The idea here was that most users have a desktop and a laptop computer and you did not use them at the same time (work vs. working at home, etc.).

The new EULA allows you to run Creative Cloud applications on 2 computers concurrently, and further, you can run both Mac and Windows versions of the software.

Hope that clarifies things.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Clint Wardlow
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:45:32 pm

Wow, I wonder what all the legal ramifications on this are? I mean is it legal for a single user to load his second copy on a friend's machine and split the costs. Or does the user have to own both machines?

I mean, if it is permissible for two people to share the costs, that might alleviate some of the anxiety of the starving fine artist that depend on Adobe to help create their art.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:02:12 pm

Interesting question Clint. If it is allowed on two computers to operate at the same time, how would they stop people from sharing? If one of the computers was a portable, it could be located anywhere re license verification. Can they even tell if it is a portable? That's possible if the verification method goes deep enough. I see some problems here for Adobe if they allow concurrent use.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:16:37 pm

[Jim Wiseman] " If it is allowed on two computers to operate at the same time, how would they stop people from sharing? If one of the computers was a portable, it could be located anywhere re license verification. Can they even tell if it is a portable? That's possible if the verification method goes deep enough. I see some problems here for Adobe if they allow concurrent use."

Hey Jim,
The same issues exist for current software, don't you think?
BTW, I don't ever steal my neighbor's newspaper, even though it would be incredibly easy. ;-)

Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Kevin Monahan
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:14:02 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I wonder what all the legal ramifications on this are? I mean is it legal for a single user to load his second copy on a friend's machine and split the costs. Or does the user have to own both machines?"

According to the FAQ: You can use Creative Cloud desktop applications on two computers at once, regardless of operating system, for the individual (indicated by a single Adobe ID) associated with the Creative Cloud membership.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:20:04 pm

Not to take a pirate's stance, but that would be awfully easy to do if two users shared an ID with each other. I wouldn't condone it, but it would certainly be possible. Still see a problem for Adobe there that could affect sales.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Clint Wardlow
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:22:38 pm

Then my other question is, what is the value for an individual being able to open two computers at once? I can see how it would benefit a business, but how often in one user going to need to run two computers concurrently?


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:28:43 pm

Here's an example I might use, Clint - I'm a one man shop. I have a workstation with CS6 where I do the bulk of my motion graphics work, and I laptop with CS6 on it as well. I often get put in a stall situation where I have a long render going on my workstation, and I could use a second box to continue the project (granted that I'd need to Collect Files to get the project on my laptop, but that's not rocket science). This would give me that opportunity.

In the past, I've been that honest schmuck who wouldn't have thought to use my second install at the same time, because the EULA states that it's not allowed. Now I could work that way - not every day, but now and then it would save the day...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Frank Gothmann
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:28:45 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Then my other question is, what is the value for an individual being able to open two computers at once? I can see how it would benefit a business, but how often in one user going to need to run two computers concurrently?"

I do it every single day, all the time. In fact, If you're running 2k or 4k AE DPX jobs on large projects, it can take a long time and consume all the machine power. Sometimes I have four machines running at the same time.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Clint Wardlow
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:36:22 pm

I guess that answers my question. Thanks Frank and Joseph.


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Tim Kolb
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 10:32:42 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Then my other question is, what is the value for an individual being able to open two computers at once? I can see how it would benefit a business, but how often in one user going to need to run two computers concurrently?"

I have a workstation on my network with a watch folder for Adobe Media Encoder and I'll often export a master clip from the edit station to the watch folder and the encoding happens immediately (and isn't sharing system resource time with my continued editing.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:51:25 pm

That might be useful if I had four hands, four eyes, and two brains. Or an employee who knew how to edit exactly the way I wanted it. (Not in my future) Will not help one man shops, except for the long export rendering process, which is a real issue. Will obviously have to buy a second computer.

It will help the larger facilities that engage in commercial production and can probably afford this model anyway. They aren't that attached to their work as a rule in my experience. Just keeping the work coming in the door and out. When they quit business, not much reason to revisit anything. Many one man operations are in a very different position on that as well with their personal projects.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Frank Gothmann
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 8:04:31 pm

It makes perfect sense even for smaller shops. Premiere or AE rendering on one machine, Photoshoping on the other. Or a Windows Workstation with beefy CUDA GPUS for AE renders and a Mac for Photoshop. A lot of people can consider cross platform work without the need of buying a second license (and even if you could install and run CS6 on two machines, you could only do it on the same OS.).
Throw Dark Energy in an AE HD project of 90 minute length and you are looking at a 1-2 day render job that's blocking the machine for good. With the same license you can continue your work on another machine.
Given that I have several suite licences or win and mac, this will save me a lot of money in the future.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Kirk Pitts
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 10, 2013 at 7:58:29 pm

I've had Photoshop tell me a copy of the software is already running on the network and not let it run until the other machine had quit. But it only happens if the machine was on the network together. I don't remember seeing this since PS4 but I haven't really tested it since then.


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Roland R. Kahlenberg
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 12, 2013 at 11:57:39 am

[Tim Kolb] "With software, all you need to lower prices is a lot more customers...figuring out where the sweet spot is is the catch."

Tim, it's ridiculous to say that more customer leads to lower prices. You're essentially saying that with more subscribers for CC, we'll pay lower prices???? Eeeek!

BTW Tim, the way your Adobe Certified Instructor sig line is stated, contravenes your ACI NDA/EULA (whatever/whichever it is). Exercise extreme care cos the scums at corporate Adobe may come after your ass for the slightest transgression!

Cheers
RoRK

Intensive mocha & AE Training in Singapore and Other Dangerous Locations

Imagineer Systems (mocha) Certified Instructor
& Adobe After Effects CS6 ACE


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Tim Kolb
Re: The Illusion of Math
on May 12, 2013 at 2:38:05 pm

Roland...chill out.

What I'm saying is that a software company can often grow the user base by lowering prices. Just as Adobe did when they created the software collections, the lower profit per unit is offset by increased units.

Adobe is changing from perpetual license to subscription licensing...most everything else I see stated about this transition is speculation based on the assumption that Adobe is the evil empire.

5 years ago, most of the professional post community thought Premiere Pro was a non-factor, now we hear the cries of 'monopoly'...

Please...

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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