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Creative Cloud yes or no?

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Steve Connor
Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 12:32:12 pm

Simple poll, knowing that the CC model is here to stay (at least for a while) Are you using it or do you plan to use it?

My answer is yes.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 1:05:15 pm

Never.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 1:22:37 pm

Never nunca


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Dustin Parsons
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 1:24:29 am

Yep, loving it so far. Wish Adobe would come out with a subscription for their video apps +PS and AI though, I don't like having to pay for access and updates to things like Muse, Dreamweaver, Edge apps, Flash apps, etc... I have absolutely no use for these.

It'll be interesting to see what the answer to this question is in 2 or 3 years when everyone who isn't using it now gets sent a CC project file - be it PPro, AE, PS, etc... what do you do then? Ask your client to export it for CS6? Seems rather unprofessional to me.

Main thing holding me back from dropping Adobe is need for PS and AE. I think FCP X would be a viable replacement to PPro CC now that's it's had some time to mature but there are no replacements for PS and Motion just isn't intuitive to me, I've also never seen it used in any facility I've worked for.


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Mike Parfit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 2:51:43 am

[Dustin Parsons] "It'll be interesting to see what the answer to this question is in 2 or 3 years when everyone who isn't using it now gets sent a CC project file - be it PPro, AE, PS, etc... what do you do then? Ask your client to export it for CS6? Seems rather unprofessional to me."

Exactly. And one troubling answer to that question is speculative but not outlandish: When Adobe has us in that bind, that's the moment the high subscription prices hit the fan.

Mike Parfit


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 3:04:50 am

[Dustin Parsons] "It'll be interesting to see what the answer to this question is in 2 or 3 years when everyone who isn't using it now gets sent a CC project file - be it PPro, AE, PS, etc... what do you do then? Ask your client to export it for CS6? Seems rather unprofessional to me."

This is the reason I had to turn on CC as I kept receiving CC files. I can't possibly ask everyone to export as CS6. It's like when the new year comes around, you only get so much of a grace period when writing checks with the previous year on them.

I use Ae some, Ps and AI a little less, and receive InDesign files a lot. If there were apps that I would use if I thought they would help me, it would be Pr and Sg.

Pr CC, still needs a lot of work, in my humble opinion. There are certain aspects of it that I find to be very clunky. It's hard, as I like fcpx due to its tremendous efficiencies.

Sg is still kind of odd. I am still waiting on that one, but there's a lot of potential with Direct Link.

I don't mind the subscription as a business model, but if I were to argue for something, I'd argue for rock bottom pricing without the tiered we-will-raise-the-price-after-you've-earned-the-right-to-stop-getting-a-discount bullshit. Pick a price. Stick with it. Apply to everyone.

I also think it's a waste of time to develop (or "pay for") the myriad of apps, but I'm sure there's someone out there who thinks its a waste of time to keep developing Ae as they don't use it.

Paying $50/mo for a bunch of filler that isn't used is not my favorite way of buying a new subscription. And then when you start applying this out to several licenses and seats, the math and options start to look a little goofy.

I do think that Adobe code writers are working pretty hard and releasing updates and features at a fairly constant clip. In that sense, the benefit of CC seems apparent.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 12:27:30 pm
Last Edited By Rainer Schubert on Jan 21, 2014 at 1:37:39 pm

[Dustin Parsons] "It'll be interesting to see what the answer to this question is in 2 or 3 years when everyone who isn't using it now gets sent a CC project file - be it PPro, AE, PS, etc... what do you do then? Ask your client to export it for CS6? Seems rather unprofessional to me."

Exact. That´s one of the discussion points, why I will never use it.
(Doesn´t that sound a little bit like: They are trying to bind us with incompatible formats & that´s why we should use it)

Choice! No Chains!


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Dustin Parsons
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 8:02:21 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "Doesn´t that sound a little bit like: They are trying to bind us with incompatible formats & that´s why we should use it"

I'm not making that argument, just asking a question to those who don't use CC.

What do you do right now if you're an Avid guy and get sent an FCPX project? You're in the exact same scenario. You have to bite the bullet and pay to play. That's not why I'm using CC though, I love the products and have been using them for years. Also, Adobe is the only company to have a complete end-to-end solution for everything video which is what I loved about FCP Studio and one the main reasons I switched.

Price hikes could happen too but right now it's just speculation and if they do, that'll be a perfect opportunity for another company to improve their Photoshop killer to the point where Adobe is no longer necessary. I won't spend more than $50 a month, ever (ok, at least not until 2045). If Adobe decides to go the way of screwing the users who are currently keeping them in business, I'll leave the day it's announced and pledge my allegiance to another company.

Back to the scenario for a second: If a client needs something made using CC you could just let them know that there will be an addition rental fee of $75 because Adobe won't let you buy the software BUT there's another option, you could use (what I'm assuming most who aren't on CC are using): FCPX, Motion, Logic X, DaVince Resolve, and Compressor – which you'd own and would not have to charge the client for. Producers like to save money more than anyone and since they're holding the checks, moving away from Adobe at that point would be an easy sell.

I'm lucky and have the luxury of choosing what software I use and right now CC suits my needs and I'm very happy with it. If the subscription price rises or another company comes out with a legitimate PS replacement, I'll definitely check out the competition. $50 doesn't seem like much per month but with FCPX, Motion, Logic, and Compressor coming out to a combined cost of $600 (the exact price of CC for one year) the question I'm sure lots of people are asking is not, "Is $50 a month too much to pay for CC?" but rather, "Since I can do everything I need with Apple products, what will I spend my extra $600 on?"


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 8:49:31 pm

May be, our situations are too different.

You are right, that there are different formats in the market and it´s difficult to handle them all.
But as you wrote - that´s a fact an I (or Adobe) have no influence in that.

My trouble with that is the use of old (archived) files, which I have to open every day.
With the old license model I bought the lifelong right to use the files I once created.
(I can change the Software without losing access to my files)
As the use of my archive is essential for me, I will only invest into SW I can rely on - I want to know the future conditions before I invest great amounts in workflows, plugIns and so on (which are mostly much more expensive than the software itself).
So, leaving Adobe now, is a very cost-intensive step.
This is what was meant with dependency to file formats.

Video is not the main part of my business, as it seems to be yours.
And it also seems, that you are working on projects, that, once done, are closed and never touched.
(In that case you really can change Software rapidly)
That´s totally different from my situation. Some projects are "open" for years.
So for me it´s more essential to open my own files than that of my clients or partners.
And making me dependent on file formats is a NoGo.
(Changing Software means: Paying Adobe for the use of my archive without any guarantee of future costs and conditions)

Price isn´t the concern at all. Would have payed much more.

I have also trouble with the renting model at all.
I want to buy and own. It´s more foreseeable and fair at all.
What´s the advantage of paying in rates?
Telephone, Water and all these services are based on your consumption and so it´s OK.
But SW is totally different from that in my eyes.
Nothing against that "Cloud" as an option - but the way it is... No, not for me.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 9:07:03 pm

There is nothing about CC that says all project files are going to remain compatible forever.

Unless you keep a machine in it's current OS and software state from now until the end of time, there are never any guarantees about project file compatibility.

Adobe does pretty well, but even old Ae projects, and they are old but not ancient, won't open in the current Ae. You will need Ae CS5 to open the older files and then resave them as another copy, then take that copy to CS6 or CC. How long will Ae CS5 be able to run on hardware of the future?

When you start to factor in dynamic and direct link, Adobe's project integration is going to become even more complex.

I can understand needing an "exit strategy" that doesn't involve installing a new trial version of CC every time you need to go back and fix something, but we also have to be realistic as to how fast things are changing, and CC has done nothing but accelerate the change rate.

Jeremy


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 11:25:46 pm

Believe it or not:
I have the full, editable access to EVERY file I created within the last 12 years.
For me and my business it makes sense to keep hardware to hold them accessible.
(All CS-Versions are running here (for example) - as every one of them has special compatibilities or compatibility-problems)
I have 3D-Geometry here, which once was created on Silicon Graphics machines many years ago, and sometimes it happens, that they are still useful (today for example).
In case of changing Software, I have to stay with Adobe for a min. of 5 years for nothing else than access to my own files.
(a simply month of re-subscribtion doesn´t do the job. I really must open old files every day, like most other print-designers too)

Nothing against a company that will change with fast changing conditions.
But where is the relation to a forcing business model?

Cloud as an option was OK and I can´t see any argument for the cloud only strategy from users sight.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 11:39:18 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:08:14 am

[Rainer Schubert] "Believe it or not:
I have the full, editable access to EVERY file I created within the last 12 years.
For me and my business it makes sense to keep hardware to hold them accessible.
(All CS-Versions are running here (for example) - as every one of them has special compatibilities or compatibility-problems)
I have 3D-Geometry here, which once was created on Silicon Graphics machines many years ago, and sometimes it happens, that they are still useful (today for example).
In case of changing Software, I have to stay with Adobe for a min. of 5 years for nothing else than access to my own files.
(a simply month of re-subscribtion doesn´t do the job. I really must open old files every day, like most other print-designers too)

Nothing against a company that will change with fast changing conditions.
But where is the relation to a forcing business model?

Cloud as an option was OK and I can´t see any argument for the cloud only strategy from users sight."


We rely on our archive as well. It is valuable as we still make money from older projects.

As an FCP7 user, our archive will literally disappear over the next 5-10 years. As much as I think I will try and be able to keep a machine around that can run FCP7, I won't be able to do it forever, and I simply can't afford to open every single project we have ever done over the 10 years and export an XML.

In order to get their mature software prepared for the next 10 years, Adobe had to go subscription, Apple had to dump FCS3, 'Discreet' had to kill Edit*, Avid had to let the DS go.

I am sure you have read why the Adobe developers like CC. Do you think they are lying?

Jeremy

*OK, maybe not this one.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 11:54:27 pm

Yes I read why CC is loved by the editors.
(and I think I know why the Management Board likes too)

But I can´t see, why they have to kill the CS licenses.

Also the SW is changing now constantly - they can fix points where they give it a new release number. or?
(May be without support, may be big price, etc.)
They don´t have to print books (didn´t do that for the last releases, or did very small prints). It can also be a download-product.
I don´t really see a problem there.
And if they would have done so - may be, I would still use their software today.

But the way they changed, and the way how they changed brings more disadvantages than advantages (for me).


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 12:33:28 am

[Rainer Schubert] "Yes I read why CC is loved by the editors.
(and I think I know why the Management Board likes too)

But I can´t see, why they have to kill the CS licenses. "


There's many reasons some of them legal (if they want to release products more quickly), a lot of them financial (if they want to make more money).

The printing of books and DVDs, I would bet, wasn't a huge deciding factor but rather more of a bonus. I had been downloading the CS since CS3, I believe, but it's how the legally have to charge for perpetual or subscription licensing, and what that does to bind them to a release schedule and how they account their revenue.

I don't know the specifics, and it gets too complicated for my feeble understanding of global corporate enterprise.

I do know that the developers feel better about it, and I think this will have the most potential to impact my business positively and not negatively.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 2:40:23 am

[Rainer Schubert] "But I can´t see, why they have to kill the CS licenses. Also the SW is changing now constantly - they can fix points where they give it a new release number. or? (May be without support, may be big price, etc.) "

I've talked about this a bit before here, but the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation in the US is having a big impact on software developers -- very likely unforeseen and unexpected by Congress when they passed it.

Basically, SOX requires companies to recognize the revenue from a product when the value is delivered, not when the sale is made. (This makes sense in the context of a knee-jerk reaction to the Enron scandal here.)

That means that if you provide a feature update to a product you've already sold, you can no longer recognize all that revenue when you make the sale. Rather, you have to defer some portion of that revenue to the time when you delivered the update. This also means that if you talk about something you plan to do, you cannot recognize revenue related to that feature until you deliver it.

Avid is currently in their whole heap of NASDAQ-delisting trouble because of accounting irregularities around wrongfully-recognized revenue stemming from feature updates. Autodesk just doesn't talk about future plans, ever, period. Apple presumably eats the revenue deferral on FCPX.

In the context of running CS and CC at the same time, which Adobe did for a while, this would mean split development paths: bug fixes only for CS perpetual licenses, and bug fixes and features for paid perpetual license upgrades and subscription.

One of the problems here as that the number of releases grows, so do the number of development branches. Every time you make a feature release, you add a new bugfix/feature branch to the matrix. This spreads development and QE resources thin, taking developer time away from moving the product forward.

Subscription sidesteps this quagmire.

I'm with Jeremy that this is actually better for my business. I want better tools. I was on de facto subscription anyway, upgrading on autopilot. If CC makes it easier for Adobe to develop better tools for me, that's a net plus in my book.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 3:31:25 am

[Walter Soyka] "One of the problems here as that the number of releases grows, so do the number of development branches. Every time you make a feature release, you add a new bugfix/feature branch to the matrix. This spreads development and QE resources thin, taking developer time away from moving the product forward.

Subscription sidesteps this quagmire."


There's no quagmire.

All Adobe needs to do is have AAM check a one-bit flag set for either "subscription" or "perpetual" licensing.

Subscribers get regular updates throughout the year. Perpetual customers do not.

Perpetual customers who want updates immediately can switch to subscription. Or they can wait until next year and buy an upgrade to catch up.

There's no need for split development. There's no need for a separate perpetual product line.

All that's needed is a one-bit license flag.

It's technically trivial and can happen anytime Adobe management wants it to. All Adobe needs to do is put a business plan in place and let us give them our money.

_______________________
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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 3:36:02 am

[David Lawrence] "Subscribers get regular updates throughout the year. Perpetual customers do not. There's no need for split development. There's no need for a separate perpetual product line."

And perpetual customers live with whatever bugs ship with their version, with no hope of getting them fixed unless they pay for an update? And no support for new OSes?

You are asking Adobe to sell a product that they couldn't stand behind. That would be acceptable?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Smith
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 3:42:19 am

Adobe could've found a way to continue doing both. Their solution of going subscription only was uninspired and quite frankly, lazy.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 10:11:17 am

[David Smith] "Adobe could've found a way to continue doing both. Their solution of going subscription only was uninspired and quite frankly, lazy."

Yes, they could have done both. In fact, they did do both. CC and CS were sold side-by-side for a year, but as I mentioned above, this has split development resources. I'm glad that Adobe is still support CS6 with bug fixes for customers like you who bought it and who have not gone to CC, but every hour spent by an Adobe employee on CS6 for you is an hour not spent on CC for me.

To do both indefinitely would have required slowing down development for subscribers even more over a larger number of branches, and would have blunted one of the major advantages subscription offers: release of features as they are ready, not as the CS release calendar dictates.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 12:25:04 pm

I think there are many, many users who will pay a lot more for the whole, good all fair license & the lifelong access to their files.
So Adobe can take this money and pay some people for, to do this extra work.
But I don´t think, that it´s such a great problem.


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David Smith
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 8:14:47 pm

Yes, I've read all that information before. And, again, I think going purely subscription is an uninspired solution to the SOX problem. If they really wanted to, they could've continued with both giving you your more frequent updates and giving me the security of a perpetual license, while using only minor extra resources. It's not difficult to lay out several ideas to this effect. I'm convinced that ultimately going with subscription-only is a matter of greed, laziness and hubris.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 3:45:13 am

Now it´s getting confusing...
Why can´t the not CC USers get no updates (for the functions they bought) like in the past?
May be it´s a little more difficult but I think there are many outside who like to pay for that.
(I Would have payed twice or triple the price for my Master Coll. - I will never spend a cent to CC)


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David Lawrence
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 4:03:27 am

[Walter Soyka] "And perpetual customers live with whatever bugs ship with their version, with no hope of getting them fixed unless they pay for an update? And no support for new OSes? "

Haven't they been doing exactly that for years? In the past, how many times were bug fixes or updates held up for a new version? I'm relatively new to the Adobe NLE ecosystem but I'm sure folks out there might have some examples.

[Walter Soyka] "You are asking Adobe to sell a product that they couldn't stand behind. That would be acceptable?"

I don't think so. I don't see any reason why they couldn't treat this any differently than they did they did with perpetual releases in the past.

The difference is it's not a separate perpetual release, it's simply the current release with features locked for a year from purchase. Simple.

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 10:40:56 am

[David Lawrence] "Haven't they been doing exactly that for years? In the past, how many times were bug fixes or updates held up for a new version? I'm relatively new to the Adobe NLE ecosystem but I'm sure folks out there might have some examples. "

They've been running at least two branches for some time -- as long as I can remember. The problem with doing this for CC is that it adds so many more. Ae has had three feature-bearing releases this year; Premiere has had four.

[David Lawrence] "I don't see any reason why they couldn't treat this any differently than they did they did with perpetual releases in the past. The difference is it's not a separate perpetual release, it's simply the current release with features locked for a year from purchase. Simple."

Let's consider Premiere Pro. The difference is that in the past, the features found in 7.0.1, the features found in 7.1, and the features found in 7.2 -- Direct Link with SpeedGrade, new camera support, too many editing finesse features to mention -- would all have been held up for CS8, with not even a whisper of their existence until NAB.

Premiere Pro CC 7.0 had that nasty multicam bug, which was fixed in 7.0.1. However, new features were also added in 7.0.1. To support the hypothetical 7.0 perpetual license users, Adobe would have had to release 7.0.1 CS and 7.0.1 CC. And then 7.1 CS, which contained all the bug fixes of 7.1 CC, but none of the feature updates. And then 7.2 CS and 7.2 CC.

That's seven separate development branches after Premiere Pro 6.0 (versus two today, CS6 and CC), or that's zero bug fixes for unlucky customers who paid full price for a PL of a product at the wrong time. That's also three separate upgrades of variable value inside of seven months.

Adobe could choose to do as you say, certainly, but I don't understand how it's simple at all, and it seems to me it would make it significantly harder to develop the new features in CC.

It changes marketing, and that changes development priorities, too. See Steve Forde's blog on Ae:
http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2014/01/happy-new-year-and-a-question.h...

He's asking customers how they'd feel about the Ae team focusing on performance instead of new features for a major release. Looking at the comments, the user base is overall very enthusiastic about that idea, but if there were still CS PLs to sell, he'd be fired if he delivered a major new version that had no shiny new features on the tin other than "less slow than the last one!" -- even though that's what the majority of regular current users want!

I don't believe that Adobe HAD to offer subscription. They chose to. But I can understand why once they started subscription, they would want to focus on one or the other. Keeping both pathways open basically means either neglecting your paying PL customers (through poor support) or neglecting your paying subscription customers (through fewer or less appropriate updates due to resources spent on PL customers).

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 12:32:43 pm

On the other hand:
If they offer both CS & CC - There will be more people subscribing who want secure file access, because they know, they can upgrade & buy to the full and lifelong license.
May be I would also have subscribed one day, If I was aware, that there is an save harbor.
So I think, these people, who really need the updates, have a save possibility to subscribe.

An exit-strategy could also be done in a way like: Only offering subscription. But if you are a few years in the boat (or by paying an tremendous amount : ) you can leave and own... And use your files.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:34:47 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Premiere Pro CC 7.0 had that nasty multicam bug, which was fixed in 7.0.1. However, new features were also added in 7.0.1. To support the hypothetical 7.0 perpetual license users, Adobe would have had to release 7.0.1 CS and 7.0.1 CC. And then 7.1 CS, which contained all the bug fixes of 7.1 CC, but none of the feature updates. And then 7.2 CS and 7.2 CC."

Not to mention the fact that if my colleague is working in 7.2 CC and I'm working in 7.2 CS, there might be features that I would be missing and the project files would be incompatible.

I don't know much, but I don't think this is as simple as setting a flag in the software and adds a lot more workflow complication.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:50:19 pm

Wasn´t that also a problem of the past?
And don´t we learned to live with?
And i bet, that much more would subscribe, if they know, there is a door to come out (without the lose of file-access).
Especially if the price-difference between CS-compareable and CC is tremendous.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 2:07:27 pm

[Walter Soyka] "To support the hypothetical 7.0 perpetual license users, Adobe would have had to release 7.0.1 CS and 7.0.1 CC. And then 7.1 CS, which contained all the bug fixes of 7.1 CC, but none of the feature updates. And then 7.2 CS and 7.2 CC.

That's seven separate development branches after Premiere Pro 6.0 (versus two today, CS6 and CC), or that's zero bug fixes for unlucky customers who paid full price for a PL of a product at the wrong time. That's also three separate upgrades of variable value inside of seven months."


There would be zero extra branches. The Cloud has won, I am proposing a complete end to the CS line. Any user who has been subscribing for at least one year can choose, for a fee, to purchase an "unflagged" version of the software he/she are already happily using. They will already know about any bugs and are happy to live with them at time of the purchase. They can, at any future point when OS changes or Product changes leave them feeling left in the dust, start the cycle all over again -- a year of subscriptions before purchase. For any corporate or educational user that cannot justify subscribing in the first place, a higher fee is paid that ensures download of the current version and up to 2 subsequent releases.

Whatever bugs there are in the software will be known to the purchaser before hand - all software has bugs, many bugs are never fixed, they simply become "features."

There are no disks, no manuals, no different versions, other than flagged and unflagged. There are no additional costs to Adobe, no branching, nothing but a larger pool of potential customers. This will still not please everybody, however let us not make the perfect the enemy of the good because this will definitely please a majority of the unhappy.

Explain to me where I'm wrong, because I don't see it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 5:10:27 pm

[Herb Sevush] "There are no disks, no manuals, no different versions, other than flagged and unflagged. There are no additional costs to Adobe, no branching, nothing but a larger pool of potential customers. This will still not please everybody, however let us not make the perfect the enemy of the good because this will definitely please a majority of the unhappy."

Exactly.

I think you're overthinking it, Walter. ;)

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David Lawrence
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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 5:29:47 pm

[David Lawrence] "Exactly. I think you're overthinking it, Walter. ;)"

Something I am often guilty of!

I just see a lot of nuance here. I'm not saying that the status quo is ideal, but think all of the "easy" solutions come with new problems of their own.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 5:21:26 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Explain to me where I'm wrong, because I don't see it."

I'm not saying you're wrong. Adobe could do what you describe.

I'm just saying that all of these paths we're discussing here come at a cost (the current CC path included).

The cost of your proposal is leaving paid users absolutely unsupported. That's just as much a break with tradition as subscription licensing. Is that better or worse than not providing every potential user with the licensing model they'd prefer? Not my decision to make.

We discuss the downsides of CC here at length, but I can say that as a CC subscriber, I'm very happy with upsides I've seen so far: release of features when they're ready, and a very pleasing focus on features that may look boring on a new features list but make a big difference to daily users. These are the things we thought we wanted three years ago.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 6:06:14 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The cost of your proposal is leaving paid users absolutely unsupported. "

They would be no more unsupported than they ever were with Adobe. They would have a chosen and proven piece of software whose limitations were already known.

As far as future support, how is that any different than someone who is still using version 5.5 today. No company keeps providing bug fixes for anything but the latest software. If you want to stay current with your software you have to keep paying for upgrades -- in this case it would mean re-subscribing. I have version 1.5 of PPro - is Adobe still supporting that? Hardly, nor should they. What I can do with that software is open it whenever I want, if I've kept an old machine going. That's all we are looking for.

It's no different in terms of support than any previous method, in fact it's better because the user has had a year long chance to kick the tires before he buys in.

[Walter Soyka] "We discuss the downsides of CC here at length, but I can say that as a CC subscriber, I'm very happy with upsides I've seen so far: release of features when they're ready, and a very pleasing focus on features that may look boring on a new features list but make a big difference to daily users. These are the things we thought we wanted three years ago."

They are the things I've wanted, but the "no exit strategy" price is a very high one to pay; a price that no other company is asking for. Given what I've learned about the latest version of the multicam feature I should be jumping at the bit to switch over to PPro 7, and yet I'm still looking at alternatives, trying to figure out which bad deal I'm going to chose.

In my naivete I keep thinking it didn't have to be this way.

The evidence points to the fact that Adobe management knows that given any kind of choice many of their Cloud subscribers would choose perpetual. The Cloud works for Adobe financially, but they only way they can get the numbers they need is by eliminating choice. They are afraid of competing with themselves and only by offering a take it or leave it proposition can they succeed. And if they do succeed it will be on the strength of Photoshop, Illustrator, AE and maybe some of the web products that I'm totally unfamiliar with -- PPro is just along for the ride, which is why they obviously didn't care about blowing the opportunity FCPX handed them.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 6:32:09 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The Cloud works for Adobe financially, but they only way they can get the numbers they need is by eliminating choice. They are afraid of competing with themselves and only by offering a take it or leave it proposition can they succeed."

This. ^

_______________________
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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 6:54:07 pm

[Herb Sevush] "They would be no more unsupported than they ever were with Adobe. They would have a chosen and proven piece of software whose limitations were already known. As far as future support, how is that any different than someone who is still using version 5.5 today."

I see your point that no release is supported forever, but users with your plan would be less supported than they were in the past.

On PL, you were entitled to every update released for your major version. With this plan, you wouldn't be entitled to any updates at all once you hopped off.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad approach, but I don't think it's the same as what we had before, either.



[Herb Sevush] " The Cloud works for Adobe financially, but they only way they can get the numbers they need is by eliminating choice. They are afraid of competing with themselves and only by offering a take it or leave it proposition can they succeed"

Yes, marketing is absolutely a big part of this -- but having CC compete with a PL option hamstrings CC in product development, too.

Is selling a PL after a CC subscription so different from selling a PL instead of a CC subscription? Doesn't that put us back to worrying about shiny features that will sell buyouts? Instead of focusing on what long-term customers need, there's the temptation for short-term money grabs?

David, this is where you accuse me of overthinking, but this things are all one big ball of yarn. You can't pull on one end without affecting the whole thing.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 7:25:11 pm

[Walter Soyka] "On PL, you were entitled to every update released for your major version. With this plan, you wouldn't be entitled to any updates at all once you hopped off."

However with my plan you don't hop off until you know all bug fixes are in. Previously the first few months after a major revision the releases were mostly bug fixes because of SOX, this way you don't need those revisions. It's not EXACTLY the same, but I think objectively it's close enough not to matter.

[Walter Soyka] "s selling a PL after a CC subscription so different from selling a PL instead of a CC subscription? "

Totally. Your neither advertising nor marketing for the PL, it is just a convenience offered to subscribers by their very friendly host.

[Walter Soyka] "Doesn't that put us back to worrying about shiny features that will sell buyouts?"

Not at all, I would be willing to include a stipulation that any version of Cloud software that is purchased be at least 6 months old. This would further insure stability and remove any possibility of "shiny feature-itis."

[Walter Soyka] "Instead of focusing on what long-term customers need, there's the temptation for short-term money grabs?"

You're grabbing the wrong end of the horse. The Cloud already is a short term money grab. The PL market will be subsidiary, which is why it won't affect focus. The Cloud is where the moola is, which is why this whole thing started in the first place.

[Walter Soyka] " this things are all one big ball of yarn. You can't pull on one end without affecting the whole thing."

The thing it will affect are the subscription numbers. If Adobe doesn't do something this simple it's because they have no faith in the Cloud's ability to attract enough customers on it's own merrits.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 8:21:33 pm

[Herb Sevush] "You're grabbing the wrong end of the horse. The Cloud already is a short term money grab. The PL market will be subsidiary, which is why it won't affect focus. The Cloud is where the moola is, which is why this whole thing started in the first place."

I think CC is a long play, not a short-term money grab at all. And I'm ok with paying for value.

You, David, Chris, Rainer and the others have a totally legitimate objection here, and I'd rather see it solved, but I think it's a harder problem to solve well for everyone than has been suggested here. You have my respect, but I think we simply disagree here.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 8:35:13 pm

[Walter Soyka] "You have my respect, but I think we simply disagree here."

And back to you as well.

The way things look I will probably be joining you in the Cloud come spring - the difference being I will do it with fingers crossed, baited breath, and my eyes on the horizon looking for a safer place to land.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 11:06:18 pm

I am sure there are dozens of thousands if not more that are in the cc with eyes open to find an alternative and many who just tried it out for size because of the low introductory price. just got a letter from adobe with an offer not seen since it was rolled out. But thankfully i not only see the worm i see the hook.

Ricardo Marty


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 4:47:10 am
Last Edited By Herb Sevush on Jan 22, 2014 at 4:50:39 am

[Walter Soyka] "And perpetual customers live with whatever bugs ship with their version, with no hope of getting them fixed unless they pay for an update? And no support for new OSes? "

Your making this too complicated. Adobe could keep perpetual releases 1 year behind CC releases. A user would wait to find a stable release, with bug fixes, that pleases him/her. Then he buys it. If he's not happy with that release, he can buy another. You want support for a new OS, buy it when your ready. There would be clear advantages for CC users, but solutions for those who won't go that way. Win win. There are any number of ways that Adobe could make this work, if they wanted to.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 10:45:47 am

[Herb Sevush] "There are any number of ways that Adobe could make this work, if they wanted to."

Agreed, but see my last response to DHL. There are opportunity costs to any of the ways of making it work (including of course the current plan).

You can please some of the people all the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 3:41:23 am

Exactly, what I think...

BtW (wrote it already):
I have an maintenance plan at e-onsoftware for Vue-XStream, which is a plugIn (and Solo-App also) for the creation of Lanscapes within Cinema 4D.
Within that plan I get Updates. They add ( ! ) features and deliver these as Beta-Versions.
Can install if I like or not and it´s legal.
How do they do that? Why are they not punished for that? And why Adobe can´t?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 10:06:27 am

[Rainer Schubert] "BtW (wrote it already): I have an maintenance plan at e-onsoftware for Vue-XStream, which is a plugIn (and Solo-App also) for the creation of Lanscapes within Cinema 4D. Within that plan I get Updates. They add ( ! ) features and deliver these as Beta-Versions. Can install if I like or not and it´s legal. How do they do that? Why are they not punished for that? And why Adobe can´t?"

SOX doesn't say a company can't add features. SOX doesn't say a company must charge for features. SOX just says a a company must not book full revenue at the time of sale for unfinished products.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 12:22:13 pm
Last Edited By Rainer Schubert on Jan 22, 2014 at 12:33:24 pm

Then e-onsoftware does the better job, or?
Because - truly - I have to pay for the maintenance plan (400€/yr).
And I also have to pay for the base-product (1600€).
But after all I own the product on every level I payed for.
So it does exactly what all the others want, that are missing the buy-out.
I can receive fast delivered updates & I own the product (don´t lose my files) after the deal.
So if Adobe want´s to do it - they can.
With other words, this "Creative Cloud" isn´t half as creative as it sounds like.
I think, if Adobe really wants, they can find many ways to do so (selling upgrade packages or what ever)
They simply don´t want in my eyes & I also think that the dependency is part of the plan.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:19:47 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "Then e-onsoftware does the better job, or? Because - truly - I have to pay for the maintenance plan (400€/yr). And I also have to pay for the base-product (1600€/yr). "

Better is subjective. Creative Cloud lowers the barrier to entry because there is no upfront cost, versus traditional maintenance. The tradeoff is the PL.


[Rainer Schubert] "So if Adobe want´s to do it - they can.
With other words, this "Creative Cloud" isn´t half as creative as it sounds like. I think, if Adobe really wants, they can find many ways to do so (selling upgrade packages or what ever) They simply don´t want in my eyes & I also think that the dependency is part of the plan."


I am not arguing Creative Cloud was the only option Adobe had, and I think that there are many factors that contributed to their decision. I'm just pointing out that there are real differences versus the prior model, and that the "just do both" idea is much more complex in the real world than flipping one bit.

Here's a question: you've mentioned that you are contractually obligated to maintain client files for a period of 3 years. Does this mean that you do not provide your working files to your clients, thus making them dependent on you?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:47:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Here's a question: you've mentioned that you are contractually obligated to maintain client files for a period of 3 years. Does this mean that you do not provide your working files to your clients, thus making them dependent on you?"

That´s mostly only for industry-clients.
And the contract contains both: I have to keep every piece of work for a minimum of 3 years.
In this 3 years the client hast the right to get the files (I have to hand-over completely if they like to give them to an other company or so) and I must also be able to access these files (modify / render again / prints / ...).
But in the past years it was very recommendable to keep the files (and the access to them) for very much longer.
It happens (seldom, but...), that I have to use files, which are between 5 and 10 years old.
These contracts are concluded especially for the need of the client to get NOT dependent.

In some special cases the clients have no right to get the files (or only on very high extra costs), because they contain a lot of know-how (...which often was not created for the ordering client / but that only belongs to some special 3D-Files).


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 10:16:05 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "I think, if Adobe really wants, they can find many ways to do so (selling upgrade packages or what ever)
They simply don´t want in my eyes & I also think that the dependency is part of the plan.
"


Is e-onsoftware a publicly traded company? SOX only applies to publicly traded companies like Adobe. Privately help companies have much less regulation to deal with.




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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 11:30:14 pm

I don´t really know...
Just had a look & it seems they are private held...

OK. But at least, they may find an other way, to do an similar solution.
Many proposals her in the thread.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 23, 2014 at 12:01:17 am

[Rainer Schubert] "OK. But at least, they may find an other way, to do an similar solution.
Many proposals her in the thread."


I'm sure Adobe has been kicking around a Plan B, a Plan C and a Plan D but they aren't going to share those financial plans with anyone and they aren't going to abandon Plan A at the drop of a hat either becomes I'm sure the move to the subscription model was years in the making.




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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 23, 2014 at 10:09:12 am
Last Edited By Rainer Schubert on Jan 23, 2014 at 10:09:47 am

I believe also, that they didn´t decide to do so an hour before at the coffee break.
And I think they were also aware of the risks it held.
I also think that they will only have a look at plan B if plan A fails.
I really believe, that they want us to be dependent, and that this is a part of plan A.
They are not really working "hard on solutions" that files are available for customers after the deal (as they told).
And I really don´t know anybody, who is of the opinion, that this decision was made as an advantage for us.
The way their decision was made and the missing fundamental features (like the buy-out) had an very bad influence on Adobes image.
And every plan B (to Z) comes too late for a repair of that.
(I´m aware of the fact, that Video-people don´t have the same, fundamental necessity to open old files, like print-designers, and the problem is seen a little bit different here. But I also think, that´s why the Video-tools are the ones which got the big updates after the cloud outcoming)
So they will play the game to the end - and the earliest time to see whether this game was successful is next year (or late 2014), when the business numbers tell the truth and are not longer based on estimations.
I don´t think, we can see them change their minds, before that.
But also: For many of their customers it would be to late - they are lost (because they had to made their decisions also).
Now we are far away from SOX... But I´m sure there was a plan between all the alternatives, that wasn´t as radical as the now existing solution.
I will not believe, that the outer conditions forced Adobe to act like they did.
There were alternatives and there are alternatives.
Adobe simply decided to do it more radical than all the competitors.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 12:59:06 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "In order to get their mature software prepared for the next 10 years ... 'Discreet' had to kill Edit*,"

While we can agree to disagree on any number of topics I would suggest you don't know what you are talking about with this one Jeremy. It would make your argument a lot stronger if you left this fabrication off your list, because to those who know anything about what happened there, it makes you sound like something your not.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:06:48 am

[Herb Sevush] "While we can agree to disagree on any number of topics I would suggest you don't know what you are talking about with this one Jeremy. It would make your argument a lot stronger if you left this fabrication off your list, "

I put it there, specifically for you, actually.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:18:07 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I put it there, specifically for you, actually."

Since the eol of *edit had nothing to do with allowing discreet* to prepare for the next anything, I gather the only reason you put it there was to see if i would rise to the bait. Well played, the mention of discreet will always get a reaction from me, and not a positive one.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 23, 2014 at 12:46:34 am

In 2000 I went to a very large internet company! to run their studios in Dallas. I came from a post house with 2 fire, 1 inferno, 1 smoke and 1 Henry suite. I was this close (thumb and forefinger millimeters apart) of setting up 3 edit* suites for us. Dragged my feet a bit and the decision was made for me. It was like the Colts leaving Baltimore in the middle of the night. Still think about edit* and what might've been.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 23, 2014 at 3:27:39 pm

[Paul Neumann] "Still think about edit* and what might've been."

Now you make me want to cry.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Florian Sepp
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 2:54:44 pm

NO as long there is no way out.
Nothing against it if there is.

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Greg Jones
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 3:08:47 pm

Been using creative cloud for a year and a half and it's been great. Will definitely stay with it unless they jack the price up significantly. The monthly cost of the cloud is insignificant considering what one job brings in. Being able to go back and forth between Premiere and After Effects has been a time saver. Just my 2 cents.


Greg Jones
D7,Inc.
Orlando,FL.
http://www.d7-inc.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 6:39:55 pm

[Greg Jones] "Being able to go back and forth between Premiere and After Effects has been a time saver. "

you could do that before CC. And certainly before mandatory CC


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Andy Field
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 10:10:01 pm

Agree - very happy with getting everything Adobe makes for a low monthly price - we use a lot of it - Premiere Pro Audition, After Effects, Prelude, Photoshop......a bargain compared to the yearly upgrade costs we faced...and constantly updated and improved - if you do this for a living, the cost per month is negligible

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Allison Selene
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 4:03:38 pm

Hi,

My answer is "No." I have already have alternatives and will use those in parallel with CS6 until I fully switch over.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 4:25:48 pm

Yes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 4:46:23 pm
Last Edited By Steve Connor on Jan 17, 2014 at 4:46:52 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Yes."


I'm shocked!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 5:25:48 pm

No. For all the reasons stated above.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 5:46:33 pm

Yes, basically for the same reason's Greg Jones stated.

I had actually let my original CC subscription lapse and was just going to see how things went but then I got offered some good gigs that required CC so back I came w/o hesitation.




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David Lawrence
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 5:56:31 pm

No. It's not about cost.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 6:04:52 pm

Nope


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Chris Pettit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 6:42:18 pm

No. But not because I wont subscribe. Because I can't have the work held hostage to monthly payments.

That problem gets solved eventually or a lot of people will leave forever. Hope Adobe can afford it.


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David Mathis
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 7:36:18 pm

No way! Not going to do it. Just because the guy across the street is juggling chainsaws does not mean that I will.


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Ben Pritchard
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 7:46:36 pm

I can see where you 'no's' are coming from but as a working editor £46 per month doesn't even figure compared to increased productivity etc. I work full time at this (previously fcp) and it pays its way many times over. So Yes.


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Shane Ross
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 8:13:04 pm

Currently and in the forseeable future...no. Mostly because I'm a hired gun and use what they sit me in front of, which currently is Avid. For my own projects, I still use FCP 7, and some CS6.

Until I have the possibility to use it on paying jobs, I cannot say for certain. But I'm heavily leaning NO. Because while editing native is nice, I don't need it. And there are still features that are lacking (media manage a project and only the assets used in that project for archiving) or that I simply don't need. FCP 7 STILL suits the many needs I have when I don't use Avid MC. And FCP 7 is more solid with my IO than Adobe is, currently.

My motto is BUY WHEN YOU NEED. I don't need Adobe CC at this time. CS6 suits all my current needs.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 8:18:09 pm

[Shane Ross] "And there are still features that are lacking (media manage a project and only the assets used in that project for archiving)"

Premiere Pro's Project Manager [link] does exactly this.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Shane Ross
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 8:52:41 pm

That won't TRIM the master footage to only what is used, with handles. I still have deliverable requirements that...uh...require that. And that the media be ProRes 422. Or an Avid project and media...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 9:02:40 pm

[Shane Ross] "That won't TRIM the master footage to only what is used, with handles. I still have deliverable requirements that...uh...require that. And that the media be ProRes 422. Or an Avid project and media..."

It know it doesn't trim long-GOP formats, but it should trim intraframe media like ProRes 422 with handles. That's not my normal workflow, but I'll try to give it a spin later.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Andy Field
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 11:18:59 pm

Shane - the media management is dramatically improved in CC - and if you like/love FCP 7 you will be more than pleased with Premiere Pro CC - in fact you can make it work 97 percent the same way FCP 7 works - I get the "with no paying job - what's the point" argument - for us - one paying job ..a year... more than pays the full year subscription

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 8:20:30 pm

Yes for me.

I understand the philosophical objections here, but CC has been a very good, practical choice for my business.

I am looking forward to the "particular focus on the service layer" that Mike Chambers alluded to for 2014. I think there's a lot of potential here.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Pettit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 12:18:56 am

[Walter Soyka] "I am looking forward to the "particular focus on the service layer" that Mike Chambers alluded to for 2014. I think there's a lot of potential here."

I noticed that comment as well of course Walter. I'll confess I'm not exactly sure what that means.

What do you feel he's saying there?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 12:01:06 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I am looking forward to the "particular focus on the service layer" that Mike Chambers alluded to for 2014. I think there's a lot of potential here."

[Chris Pettit] "I noticed that comment as well of course Walter. I'll confess I'm not exactly sure what that means. What do you feel he's saying there?"

I think that some problems cannot be solved on the desktop. Collaboration in particular requires connection.

I don't know what's coming -- and if I thought I did, I'd be running a startup around it right now -- but I look at services like Basecamp, Dropbox, Facebook, Google Apps for Business, QuickBooks Online, Salesforce, Shotgun, and Twitter and I think there's enormous yet-untapped opportunity around connectivity for our creative work.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Pettit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 2:20:49 am

[Walter Soyka] "yet-untapped opportunity around connectivity for our creative work."

Gotcha, thanks. No matter what, it certainly will be interesting as we move forward


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David Smith
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 8:37:10 pm

My answer is a big NO.

Even if I preferred subscribing to software over owning it, I would have a hard time trusting a company like Adobe that so willingly and unapologetically forsakes a huge number of its customers.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 8:58:54 pm

[David Smith] "Even if I preferred subscribing to software over owning it, I would have a hard time trusting a company like Adobe that so willingly and unapologetically forsakes a huge number of its customers."

David, what companies in this space do you trust? Apple, Autodesk and Avid have all also arguably forsaken their customers in the last couple years.

For me, it's less about the company and more about the products and what they can do for my business. There's room for disagreement here, but as a customer of all four of the vendors I listed above plus several others, I think Adobe has got the best overall offering now and the most promising trajectory for product development.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Smith
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 9:37:02 pm

There is no doubt that I have a dislike for large "corporations" in general. I think by nature, once any company becomes big enough, becomes some corporation, it starts to turn rotten. It's almost inevitable. It goes from some guys in a garage in Palo Alto with a dream and excellent customer support to a big money making machine run by people who's interests aren't customers but shareholders. I have problems with all the companies you listed. I really don't care for Apple at all. I used to like Facebook and Google too, but I think they've also turned rotten. But I digress; these are simply my personal reflections.

Adobe easily tops my s--- list. The fact is, it doesn't matter at this point how good their product might be or become because the delivery system is absolutely unacceptable. It kills everything.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:50 pm

[David Smith] "The fact is, it doesn't matter at this point how good their product might be or become because the delivery system is absolutely unacceptable. It kills everything."

I get this. Personally, I think more open document formats and interchange standards are best answer to the problems you raise, but of course that's not a perfect solution either.


[David Smith] "I have problems with all the companies you listed."

What kind of creative work do you do? What tools are you using now, and what tools are you planning to use going forward?

I am not trying to win an argument, I'm just trying to better understand your perspective.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Smith
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 3:35:25 am

I make videos, from pre to post production. I started back in the days when the only real ways to edit were by cutting film, or copying from one VCR to another with a few mixing boards in between. Although Premiere might've been the first NLE I ever used, I really learned computer-based NLE with Discreet Edit*. Then I moved over to Avid for several years, and finally moved my workflow over to Premiere in the last five years. That made sense as I already used a lot of Adobe products and now use just about program in the Production Premium bundle. (That includes Encore. I'm a big believer in physical media and keep my material and actions safe from the cloud and probing eyes of big corporations.)

I have CS6 but I'm actually still using CS5.5 mostly right which is good enough. With the advent of CC, I have found that they've done something kooky to CS6 in a connected to the internet sort of way. I haven't figured out what competitor to move over to yet, but I absolutely won't rent creative software, so unless Adobe comes up with a perpetual license solution for future versions, they are a no-go moving forward.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 9:01:21 pm

David -

...and others being loudly negative here. And let me preface this by saying that I'm very happy at present with CS6, and will stay there until projects dictate a change. I'm also not happy with the "one choice" model, but I also feel that anyone who can't make over a couple of hundred bucks a month doesn't fall into the "professional" realm. The model is great for some, anathema to others, but how long do we beat this dead horse until we move on to something else? The Adobe employees who monitor this site, not being privy to the upper management information, can only be as helpful as their knowledge goes.

I don't see anywhere that Adobe is forsaking a "huge" number of its customers. I see the usually 10, maybe 15 people here who march around the castle with pitchforks and torches, but that's about it. I have voiced my concern and dislike for the subscription only plan where it counts, on the Adobe feature request site, and still feel that their current plan is short-sighted, but I would certainly rather see Adobe changing their model and staying alive, with some of the best software in the world, than seeing them go under, or go the way of AVID, Discreet Logic, and others. We may not like their business plan, but we are also not on the inside, seeing what market factors may be dictating it.

To those who are licking their chops at the thought of Adobe going down in flames, take a look around and see what you'd have to replace After Effects with. Got a few thousand to shell out for Nuke, Flame or Smoke? Try doing what AE can do with Motion! It just seems that there isn't a lot of thought going into the argument here. I'm not big on the subscription model, but I'd be even less thrilled if Adobe went under.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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David Smith
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 9:55:06 pm

I am quite proud to carry a pitchfork and be one of those 10 or 15 people that consistently remind Adobe that what they're doing is wrong. Throughout history, some of the most notable injustices were corrected by the people who were loud and bold, not by those who sat by idly waiting for a better outcome. I don't really care for being called "negative", Joe.

I'm content to use my owned copies of CS5.5 and CS6 for a long time yet to come. But that won't last forever and when it doesn't work anymore, another solution will present itself. Obviously, I think Adobe has great software or I wouldn't so upset. It was what I planned to use for the long haul. I didn't actually want Adobe to go down in flames. I wanted them to have a heartfelt moment and rethink what they were doing. But as long as the unacceptable delivery system is in place, they're dead to me anyway, so they may as well go down in flames. The more I think about, the more I think that may be for the best.

The market simply won't exist without any sort of Effects Software, or the other programs they have... holes are always filled somehow. It may be a good time for a new company to rise and replace AE as the standard, one that's not yet as corrupted by greed, fresher and is still much more customer oriented.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 1:43:00 am

[Joseph W. Bourke] "...and others being loudly negative here. "

I'm curious who the other "loudly negatives" are. Thoughts? Is there such a thing as "loudly positive"? Just curious.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 3:10:16 am

[Joseph W. Bourke] " I see the usually 10, maybe 15 people here who march around the castle with pitchforks and torches, but that's about it."

You should take a look at their Facebook page


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Chris Pettit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 3:23:03 am

[Gustavo Bermudas] "You should take a look at their Facebook page"

No kidding.

Anyone who buys the BS that there are only a few malcontents griping about lifelong subscriptions hasn't done their homework.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 7:18:11 pm
Last Edited By Gustavo Bermudas on Jan 18, 2014 at 7:18:36 pm

I think a good barometer of success will be NAB, also, there are many who make the assumption that because there are not many "negative" posts in the cow or other sites as before, that people accepted the new model, but for what I get when talking to other professionals, is that many just moved on to other platforms, and they kind of forgot about Adobe, or they stopped caring.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 2:57:59 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] "what I get when talking to other professionals, is that many just moved on to other platforms, and they kind of forgot about Adobe, or they stopped caring."

Weird, because what I get when talking to other professionals is that they have a CC subscription, even it Premiere is not their main NLE.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 3:15:17 pm

2 editors i know have since stopped subscribingto cc and most continue with cs6. Only 1 is on cc but mostly for ps and illustrator.

Ricardo Marty


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 3:58:12 pm

Most people/users I know are still staying with CS and are satisfied with.
Some are changing to competition (15%?), if/where it´s possible.
And that ones who are subscribing (30%?) don´t see an alternative, take it as an "they have to...", have to be compatible to others... (on what Adobe counts, in my eyes), don´t worry about anything...
(No one (!) of them is lucky with the distribution/paying model, but they are mostly happy with the products)


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Gabe Strong
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 7:05:18 pm

I guess it depends where you live. Where I am, I don't know of a single full time professional that uses CC. One TV station and one production company do use CS6. They are not sure of their next step. One person who is a 'weekend warrior' (full time job outside of video/film industry and trying to get some clients and break in by working on the weekends) does use CC....the low entry cost for her was a big deal as she is just starting out. Further, of all the professional photographers I know, only one has moved to CC, the rest are currently sticking with Photoshop CS6.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 3:36:22 am

I must be looking in the wrong place, Gustavo. On the Adobe CC page, I see 314,000 likes, and 2,400 talking about it, but I maybe am not scrolling down far enough in time to see the negative stuff. As I said, I am in no way in denial, and I personally don't care whether anyone chooses to, or not to, use the Cloud. As I said, I personally am holding off on the subscription model, happy for now with the CS6 Master Collection.

What bugs me, as I said above, is the "loudly negative", and by that, I mean people who don't just state the facts, but slam Adobe, and hope they go under, and state that Adobe is going to jack up the prices any day...stuff that's just counterproductive to a reasoned conversation. And yes, Chris, I think that there are "loudly positive" types as well, who think that Adobe can do no wrong, and that there's nothing which could be improved. They are just as wrong headed.

As for doing my homework on who likes or doesn't like it, my comments were aimed at the relatively small group here on the COW. I have neither the time, nor the desire, to spend hours digging up research on who's ahead elsewhere on the web - the fors or the againsts - it will sort itself out.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 7:08:25 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "take a look around and see what you'd have to replace After Effects with. "

It's deeper than that. I cannot make the creative I need to make without Photoshop and Illustrator, which almost always are starting points into After Effects.

I have looked around very hard. For me, right now, CS6 is basically a perfect work flow. Among many efficiency gains, the one big improvement for me over FCSuite 3is side-chain compression in Audition (which couldn't be done in STP). The rest are workflow efficiencies. Using premiere as an almost-OS-like place to link Audacity and After Effects is actually fun and freeing.

This year I'm hoping to convince many people that the best workflow for us here is Adobe Anywhere.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 8:32:20 pm

[Richard Herd] "...side-chain compression in Audition (which couldn't be done in STP)."

Really? I find that surprising. STP didn't have the ability to bus signals to aux channels?

[Richard Herd] "Using premiere as an almost-OS-like place to link Audacity and After Effects is actually fun and freeing."

Yeah, Premiere has been a good "hub application" for a long time. Looking forward to tighter integration and better performance between applications in the future... and maybe more licensing options (still hoping)? :-)

Shawn



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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 9:27:27 pm

Bussing and side-chaining are different. STP and Audition have very similar bussing. STP does not have side-chain compression but Audition does.

Here's the technique: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/short-and-suite/sidechaining-in-audition-cs6/


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Shawn Miller
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 12:13:35 am

[Richard Herd] "Bussing and side-chaining are different. STP and Audition have very similar bussing. STP does not have side-chain compression but Audition does."

For the record, I didn't say they were the same thing. :-) I was thinking of sidechaining in the strictest sense; sending signals out over send or aux busses into effects or compressors with multiple inputs and sidechain (or insert) inputs. Software compressors with virtual sidechain inputs have been around for a while, all you needed to use them was software that could buss signals into them... that's why I was surprised when you said that STP couldn't do sidechain compression, I assumed you meant that the necessary bussing capability wasn't there (my bad). It looks like Audition added a sidechain input to the dynamics processor. That's good, I didn't even notice it, so thanks for pointing that out.

Shawn



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 8:52:24 pm

You should increase your sample size and post here as well:

http://forums.creativecow.net/adobepremierepro


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Eddie Torre
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 10:27:28 pm

Never, still furious since its announcement.

For every feature that Adobe has in their software, I'm actively seeking out their competitors.



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Rich Rubasch
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 17, 2014 at 11:35:30 pm

NO FOR ME....too many unknowns...industry in flux. Jeez, why Adobe, why?

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 12:00:26 am
Last Edited By Morten Ranmar on Jan 18, 2014 at 9:12:18 am

Yes we do. Huge speed improvements in both Premiere CC and After Effects CC compared to CS6.
But have also purchased additional CS6 licenses, so we can go back if Adobe's pricing sky climbs...

- No Parking Production -

Adobe CC, 3 x MacPro, 3 x MbP, Ethernet File Server w. Areca ThunderRaid 8.... and FCPX on trial


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Shawn Miller
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 12:51:14 am

Yes, currently using CC versions of the production premium suite because I'm paid to. I really dislike the subscription only model, so I'm hoping for more flexible licensing options in the future.

Shawn



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Mike Parfit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 4:30:46 am

No. This form of subscription, with no way out and no protection against arbitrary price hikes or reduced development or a decision by Adobe to force a new paradigm called magnetic bins, breeds insecurity. Got enough of that already.

Mike
http://www.savingluna.com


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 2:25:34 pm

Yes and I hope that they eventually offer some kind of "exit strategy" but for me that's not a deal breaker. There is so many new and useful things in CC that, as good as CS6 is, it's really starting to look a little last-gen compared to what's available now.

And there's the services side that keeps getting better and better. It's all really come together in an incredible helpful way.

I don't care about not having access my projects 10 years down the road. I'll have masters of some kind. If I want to rebuild anything it'll be that much more fun on the technology of the day. I feel like any client would be just as understanding in asking to have anything revised after any great length.

(OK. Now "knife through butter" and "pray tell" me until you've got your pound of flesh. I understand this isn't really a debate forum.")


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 2:40:49 pm

Only belongs to the video tools.
PS, AI, InDes, DW, Flash & so on: Where are these changes? I nearly can do the same PS CC things with PS4.

And: Your situation.
Mine: I Have to guaranty 3 years of full access to (nearby) all of my clients files.
(changing software = Paying 3 yrs for nothing than the use of my files. My files dependent on Re-Subscribing? Without any guaranty of future prices? Never!)
Also: I care about projects, that are very old and I often have to use files, which are 5 yrs old or older.
I don´t like to rebuild a project, because I have to modify a line of text. Don´t think it´s funny to do so.
So, the missing exit is the killer.
And most of the people I´m in relation with, are seeing it the same way.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 3:02:50 pm

So many unfamiliar names I just wonder if adobe is calling their fanboys to post here.nthing against the no likes. fanboys.

Ricardo Marty


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 3:36:53 pm

So, Ricardo...it's just fine to post here as long as it's a negative, anti-Adobe sentiment. Otherwise, there must be a plot going on? This is just what I was talking about in my earlier post...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 3:53:14 pm

Where do i say that its negative? I just commented and made no negative judgement. its all in your mind

Ricardo Marty


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 4:37:10 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "So many unfamiliar names I just wonder if adobe is calling their fanboys to post here."

That would explain why I saw this outside my window last night:

[image]

Or, you know, maybe people are just answering the question honestly.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 5:08:11 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Ricardo Marty] "So many unfamiliar names I just wonder if adobe is calling their fanboys to post here."

That would explain why I saw this outside my window last night:
"



Genius!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 5:33:29 pm

Say it ain't so, Walter! The Adobe CC Sign of Ultimate Domination and Worldwide Corruption! Aaaargh!!!!!

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 2:26:54 am

[Walter Soyka] "That would explain why I saw this outside my window last night:"

OK, setting aside the debate for just a wee moment.

I can't tell you how loud I just laughed. NOT at my friend Ricardo of course. But Walter... Hilarious.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 2:29:51 am

I laughed also.

Ricardo Marty


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 5:31:04 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "I just wonder if adobe is calling their fanboys to post here.nthing against the no likes."

Absolutely not. There are several Adobe folks who monitor this and other Creative Cow forums on a personal level because we try to help the community. That said, we would never influence the tenor of the conversation by asking certain people to jump in.

Additionally, I agree that there is often no 'debate' here because most people's minds are made up one way or the other. There have been many posts that I've read that I wanted to jump into and debate, but in the end decide not to, because I don't think I will change anybody's mind.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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David Mathis
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 18, 2014 at 5:58:11 pm

Dennis,

I agree with everything you said in your post. I will admit my mind is set, at least for now. I have nothing against a subscription model or anyone who wants to participate. For me, not having an exit strategy, or at least one I am not aware of, is where I coming from.

I believe that Adobe does make some very solid piece of software, just feel that the approach they are taking could have have been handled better. I am only stating my opinion, others may not agree. Perhaps at some later point I will consider joining. For now I personally don't feel it is of benefit to join.

I really do appreciate your work here and reaching out to us. You represent the best of Adobe and your co-workers who participate here as well. You are a great group and the world needs more people like you.

Sincerely,

David


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Cameron Clendaniel
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 1:43:39 am

Absolutely yes. Premiere Pro is the best NLE available. Subscriptions and costs and all other concerns are secondary to that, IMHO.

Plus After Effects and Photoshop speak for themselves.

Cameron Clendaniel
Film Editor, NYC
718-254-8027
cam@camclendaniel.com
http://www.camclendaniel.com



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Gabe Strong
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 2:10:12 am

Nope, after switching from FCP 7 to CS6, I am now switching from Adobe. For now, I have FCP 7,
CS 6 and FCP X on my machine. CS6 will be the last of my exposure to Adobe. And yes, as a
professional I 'could' spend money on a lot of things, I choose what is best for my business, just as
Adobe does for themselves. It is NOT best for my business to be tied to this subscription model.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 19, 2014 at 10:49:33 pm

A lukewarm Yes. All my shows since the June release have ben posted on CC includig 2 national TV specials and a soon-to-be-released feature film. I've been a subscriber since CS6 though Premiere 6 was useless for me as an NLE.

I was hoping the latest FCPX was going to fix so many of the X issues so I could downgrade to Photoshop CC only , but Apple's ears seem far more closed than Adobe's. MC 7 is just boring and Vegas, my favorite NLE ever, has become more unstable with each update.

I'm stuck with Premiere CC which still has a lot of little nagging issues but far better than anything else right now.

Mind open...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 3:08:59 am

If vegas where stable would you use it for your national tv and film projects?

Ricardo marty


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 7:25:52 am

Yes! and I have in the past. I've been a Vegas user and beta tester for over 12 years and have done a wide variety of shows using Vegas including my own feature film a few years ago. It's still the only NLE that gives you the power of Pro Tools for audio and the ability to edit and composite. That said, it has fallen behind in recent years in stability and real-time performance and there have been few improvements in the built in effects and features. But I still use it for certain things especially 5.1 mixing and sound design.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Herbert van der wegen
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 5:19:31 am

Never. I moved to other software, both for my professional work and my personal work.

CS6 is sometimes used to open legacy files, and convert those assets.

And but for one or two things other software does a better job than Adobe's alternatives.

/*----------------------------------------------------*/
System: Win7 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), ATI 7970 3gb, EVGA 590 3GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820. Screens: 2 x Samsung s27a850ds 2560x1440, HP 1920x1200 in portrait mode


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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 7:14:40 pm

[Herbert van der wegen] "And but for one or two things other software does a better job than Adobe's alternatives"

What software?

Thanks!


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 5:41:38 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Jan 20, 2014 at 5:47:38 am

Absolutely no. The lack of a way out is a deal breaker. Will use CS6 Production Premium/Premiere for ingesting multiple formats, light color correction and legalization, maybe titles, and transcode to ProRes formats. Will cut final on FCP X 10.1. Doing Ripple Training on FCP X 10.1 and Motion. Will do me fine. Will move completely away from Adobe re video as soon as is practical. Also using Aperture much more than PS for my photo work. PS 6 will be the last. No payments to Adobe in my future without an off ramp. Their attitude toward their customers at the upper management level speaks more loudly than I ever could concerning their lack of regard for ALL of those who have become dependent on their software.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.4, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, 2 Hexacore MacPros 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Jim Cunningham
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 3:33:08 pm

At present I'm on hold w/ CS6. I don't like the rent only model of CC.
It will be very interesting to see what happens at this years NAB. I have the feeling that we will see a number of companies that will fight to fill the gap left by Adobe. It would not surprise me at all if we see Black Magic becoming a major player in NLE.

My 2 cents.

Cheers,
Jim



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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 4:54:08 pm

I'm not currently using it. I have CS6 and that's good enough for the Photoshop, AE, and Encore work I do.

As for the future, if PPro had a better multicam feature it might overcome my reluctance to use rental software, but as it is, the decision for me is easy - no.

Being forced to pay for bundled software I will never use, lack of an exit strategy, a general loathing of the concept of software as a continuous rental and a desire not to encourage this as a business paradigm elsewhere being the reasons for my negativity.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 10:03:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As for the future, if PPro had a better multicam feature it might overcome my reluctance to use rental software, but as it is, the decision for me is easy - no."

Our of curiosity, what would you do to improve PPro's multicam?




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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 11:32:28 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Our of curiosity, what would you do to improve PPro's multicam?"

First of all I am going by other editors descriptions, along with Adobe's description. I have not tried the CC multicam hands on. But my problems with the PPro implementation of multicam have to do with the basic concept of the feature. Below I'm quoting from a post I wrote over 2 years ago on the FCPX Debate forum in which I described what I needed from a multicam feature:

Multi-Cam essentials

1) The ability to create a multi-clip with a minimum of 25 angles, no limit would be better. Automating the creation of the clip would be a plus.

2) The clips need to be able to sync to either timecode, marker or audio waveform.

3) The multi-clip needs to behave like any other clip in that you can load it in a viewer (browser), match back to it from the timeline; it should behave in a timeline like any other clip in terms of trimming, moving, j-cuts etc.

4) The multi-clip needs to be able to assign whatever combination of video angle and audio channels you want to lay down on the timeline quickly and easily, and change it whenever desired.

5) You need to be able to change video angles and edit to the timeline "on the fly" as your viewing - the "live cut" simulation mode.

6) Once cut into the timeline you need to be able to change angles or video or audio or both, trim cut points, enter new cut points with a change of angle - all with a single keystroke. Similar to the on the fly mode, only this time using the timeline as your source.

7) On the timeline you need to be able to know when video and audio are in sync even when they are not from the same original source - audio 1 from camera A with video from camera B - as long as they are from the same multi-clip. If they are not in sync, you need to be able to slip back into sync with easily, and need to be able to do this with either audio or video.

8) Need to be able to see an updating in-sync multi-clip whenever you play the timeline.

() Allowing the individual angles to contain non continuous clips, something FCP Legacy can't do, would be a big plus.

I believe PPro fails at 3, 4 and 7. It also can't do 9, which is a pain, but not a deal breaker. It also uses a photoshop-style one time only flattening that is next to useless.

The basic flaw is that the PPro multicam acts almost as a filter instead of creating a true multicam object, an object that is identical to any other media clip with the addition of multiple video "channels" to go along with the multiple audio channels, and any time a designer goes down that wrong path all you get are limitations.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:25:52 am

I don't know how PPro handled multicam in the past, but in the current version I think the outstanding numbers on your list have been fixed.

In PPro CC a mutlicam clip is basically a nested sequence so it behaves like a normal clip would in the timeline. Adding filters, matching back (to the multicam clip as well as to individual angles), etc., all function like a normal clip. I think that takes care of your number 3.

Number 4 - I'm not sure about that one. I think you can do it but the options when it comes to how audio is handled up the creation of the multicam clip are a little obtuse.

Number 7 - That one PPro CC does.

Number 9 - That one PPro CC does. Though, it could do it better as right now each new clip gets added to a new video track. It's all in sync, but if you have 12 clips the first clip will be on V1/A1 and the last clip will be on V12/A12. Annoying, but better than nothing. I want Adobe to add a function so you can assign camera angles to clips (like in FCP Legend) so that all the clips from the same angle will be placed on the same video track.

The nice thing about multicam clips being nests is that you can easily open up the nest and tweak things (even add additional angles). Much nicer than Avid or FCP Legend where if you found a mistake in a multicam clip you'd have to trash the clip and make a new one.




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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:21:44 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't know how PPro handled multicam in the past, but in the current version I think the outstanding numbers on your list have been fixed."

That's good to hear.

[Andrew Kimery] "Number 4 - I'm not sure about that one. I think you can do it but the options when it comes to how audio is handled up the creation of the multicam clip are a little obtuse."

This is a biggie for me. My audio is split out amongst the various cameras and audio channels. I have to be able to switch audio elements as easily as I can switch video angles.

[Andrew Kimery] "Number 9 - That one PPro CC does. Though, it could do it better as right now each new clip gets added to a new video track. It's all in sync, but if you have 12 clips the first clip will be on V1/A1 and the last clip will be on V12/A12."

That's the same as NOT doing it at all. The idea is to have all camera "A" clips on the same angle, even though the camera has stopped and started. In FCPX I believe you can open the "nest" and move the clips around to different tracks to achieve this result. It's not automated, but at least you can do it. I'm surprised it's taken designers this long to figure out that this is important and figure out a way to implement this.

All in all it sounds like Adobe has made some improvements. Now I only have to overcome my loathing of forced subscriptions to give it a try.

Thanks.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:44:50 pm

You can add clips to any track in the multicam nest at any time. The only thing that doesn't happen is it automatically updating the length of the multicam clip. It maintains the current length on its timeline. So you have to drag it out. But really that makes sense as the clip can be trimmed to any length.

After you cut you can easily toggle through the angles of any clip using the number keys. This works the same for audio and video. So easy to change just one or both.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:49:53 pm

[Paul Neumann] "You can add clips to any track in the multicam nest at any time."

So you CAN add multiple clips to one angle, as in the case of one camera starting and stopping while other cameras are continuous - is that what you are saying?

[Paul Neumann] "After you cut you can easily toggle through the angles of any clip using the number keys. This works the same for audio and video. So easy to change just one or both."

When you are changing audio can you as easily change channels - change from A1 to A2 or B1 to C2?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:56:46 pm
Last Edited By Paul Neumann on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:01:46 pm

Yes and yes.

You'd have to figure out the best way to sync the new clips to the pre-existing ones, but you can easily select them in the nest, choose synchronize and the choose timecode.

Though I may have misspoke on the audio on a channel per channel basis now that I better understand your question. You can easily change the angle and the audio source of any given clip. As far as changing which channel of audio (not just the track) I guess you'd have to use the clip mixer for that.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:10:01 pm

[Paul Neumann] " I guess you'd have to use the clip mixer for that?"

Can you explain, as I don't know what a "clip mixer" is?

In my previous days with PPro, Version 1 and 1.5, you had to use a filter for either "all right" meaning Ch.2, or "all left" meaning Ch.1. It was this kind of audio idiocy that caused me ot abandon PPro in the first case.

Thanks.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:35:58 pm
Last Edited By Paul Neumann on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:42:55 pm

There is a mixer available for each individual clip. Shift+9 to bring up the window. All the controls of the Track mixer but on a clip by clip basis. You can also easily set the output of any track (1,2 or none) right from the timeline via track mapping or adding pan control to that track.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 6:44:43 pm

[Paul Neumann] "There is a mixer available for each individual clip. Shift+9 to bring up the window. All the controls of the Track mixer but on a clip by clip basis. You can also easily set the output of any track (1,2 or none) right from the timeline via track mapping or adding pan control to that track."

I think we are talking at cross purposes here. I'm not talking about panning a channel left or right, I'm talking about which source channel is on the timeline.

If my main production mix is located on Ch.1, Camera B and I've used that for my rough cut but I need to cut in a moment from an iso track that is on Ch.2, Camera A; or it might even be on Ch. 2 Camera B - how easy is that to accomplish ?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:23:12 pm

When you open a multicam clip on its timeline there is a channel output mapping icon attached to each audio track (which is the audio for each video angle). That's where you would choose which channel of audio would be used in the multicam edit.

You can even add an audio only "angle" if you'd like here. But with no video attached the picture will be black when you cut to it. Easy enough to change though just by selecting that video clip and toggling to whatever you want the picture to be.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:25:23 pm

[Paul Neumann] "When you open a multicam clip on its timeline there is a channel output mapping icon attached to each audio track (which is the audio for each video angle). That's where you would choose which channel of audio would be used in the multicam edit."

Excellent. Thanks.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:53:02 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The idea is to have all camera "A" clips on the same angle, even though the camera has stopped and started. In FCPX I believe you can open the "nest" and move the clips around to different tracks to achieve this result. It's not automated, but at least you can do it. I'm surprised it's taken designers this long to figure out that this is important and figure out a way to implement this."

I am not a sophisticated-enough multicam user to know if it's a good solution for you or not, Herb, but you can do this in Pr, too. You can open the multicam clip as a sequence and move stuff around the timeline however you see fit. V1 is angle 1, V2 is angle 2, etc.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:05:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "You can open the multicam clip as a sequence and move stuff around the timeline however you see fit. V1 is angle 1, V2 is angle 2, etc."

That's quite good enough for me. Better would be to automate it by using clip metadata, but manual construction will do. It's looking like the temptation to try CC is getting stronger every day.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 24, 2014 at 8:08:44 pm

[Herb Sevush] "It's looking like the temptation to try CC is getting stronger every day."

Herb,

If you end up doing a trial of CC Multi-Cam, please count me as one who'd like to see your (no doubt detailed) assessment.

Franz.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 24, 2014 at 8:43:13 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "If you end up doing a trial of CC Multi-Cam, please count me as one who'd like to see your (no doubt detailed) assessment."

I'm going to try it out this April and will post on my experience, probably in the FCPX or not Forum.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 6:54:38 pm

Yes. (soon, but not yet.)


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David Mathis
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 8:37:47 pm

At the present time the answer is still no. Right now I find FCP X and Motion to be a very good alternative.

1. FCP X for editing and some color correction.

2. Motion for basic title and lower thirds, effects to use in FCP X reducing unnecessary steps in the process.

3. Resolve for color correction and color grading.

4. With the LUT utility from Color Grading Central I can build a look in Resolve, save that as a LUT and bring it into the LUT utility, look is then available. Very nice feature to have.

5. Might need After Effects for more complex motion graphics, expressions are very useful but will only use the software on occasion. Same applies to Photoshop but at present the occasional use is not that often. So at this point subscription is not for me.

Looking at Nuke as alternative for more more complex compositing task but not now as I can not justify the price at this time based on my work.

I am watching to see what Black Magic comes out with.


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Wine Country Films
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 20, 2014 at 11:23:02 pm

I suspect that in about 10 years FCP X will have evolved into a viable alternative to Premiere Pro CC but until then, I'll have to stick to PP .



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Mads Nybo Jørgensen
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:33:55 pm

Yes, loving it.

Currently migrating from video to learn Dreamweaver and will follow with mobile apps. All whilst continuing to improve on PPro, AE and Photoshop just to mention a few.

Btw: First time ever stepped into Illustrator to design lay-out(s) for a new website.

What is there not to like about all that freedom?

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:36:58 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "What is there not to like about all that freedom?"

The idea that it's only free as long as you keep dropping money into the meter. it's the freedom of a junkie waiting to pay for his next fix.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Mads Nybo Jørgensen
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:43:21 pm

Hey Herb,

If you are going to quote, then don't do it out of context.

There are massive difference between free and freedom.

Although, you may even feel liberated if you switched the electricity and gas-meter off - before returning to the chisel, hammer and stone-plates... ;-)

Seriously, off course there are thing that Adobe could improve, including their support mechanisms for invoicing etc.

However, in comparison to the cost of running other systems, including cameras, VTRs, photocopiers, CRM software, accountancy and so forth, then the Adobe "maintenance fee" is not the business killer that many would like to claim it is.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 6:19:51 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "If you are going to quote, then don't do it out of context."

There was nothing out of context about your quote, unless you wanted me to quote the entirety of your post, which is sitting there for all to read.

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "There are massive difference between free and freedom."

And "freedoms just another word for nothing left to loose." I could go on, but neither your cliche nor mine have anything to do with this conversation.

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "the Adobe "maintenance fee" is not the business killer that many would like to claim it is."

I don't know about anyone else, but the subscription cost is NOT the reason I'm loathe to subscribe. It is the lack of an exit strategy, the lack of ability to open old files without being forceabley attached to Adobe in the future. That is what "not to like" with all that freedom.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Mads Nybo Jørgensen
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 6:58:14 pm

Herb,

I can see how it must be upsetting not knowing the difference between Free and Freedom in the context of free being "I do not want to pay" v "I have the freedom to choice across a large number of creative tools".

It may be cliché to you, but more helpful if you switched the power off and sat a bit in the dark and enjoyed the peace - it would certainly help me not to be quoted wrongly :-D

Enjoy and have a great day, where-ever you are.

One more time, I've got CC and is very, very happy with it as it allows me to do a lot more than I've ever been able to before - no disrespect intended; for all I care, the NAY sayers can take a hike as they won't spoil my breakfast ;-)

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 6:24:04 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "...in comparison to the cost of running other systems, including cameras, VTRs, photocopiers, CRM software, accountancy and so forth, then the Adobe "maintenance fee" is not the business killer that many would like to claim it is."

It's not really a maintenance fee, either, although I'm sure Adobe would like you to consider it as such.

You can switch accountants and still get the accounting done.
You can go to a different office supply company for a copier and maintenance, and the resulting copies will still look like the previous ones.

So -- if it's just a mere "maintenance fee" as you claim -- how would you propose to switch away from Adobe?

I'll be patient while I wait for a good answer.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Mads Nybo Jørgensen
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:02:19 pm

Hey Dave,

Coming from a background in tape to tape it is just a question of taking all the source assets with you. I'll have no problem with dumping Adobe CC should I choose to do so.

But hey, you try and migrate between Quickbooks and Sage accounting and you'll soon find that more difficult than moving of Adobe.

There are nothing Adobe offers that can not be created elsewhere - it is only a question of cost and convenience. And right now, Adobe CC is working perfectly for me at a price point that is far below what the industry standard was just 12 years ago.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 9:19:25 pm

Yeah the whole exit strategy argument has never held water for me. The only reason to need an exit strategy is you're permanently switching to another NLE. So kick out .aaf's or .xml's of all your projects and leave - simple. I've opened CC projects in FCPX and Sony Vegas - sure some things will have to be re-created but it's not like you have to start over. I agree, paying $49 per month for something you're only occasionally using kinda sucks so if the fear of being stuck is too much to bear than use another NLE.

That said, I do believe Adobe blew it as far as their timing - there was a HUGE window open, a giant gift from Apple, and all they had to do was postpone the whole subscription only thing for one more rev. CC is good enough that they would have hooked many more Premiere users that wouldn't mind paying the monthly fee because they actually liked the software. But by going forward too soon, they slammed the window shut from the inside for obviously thousands of professional and casual users that will never have the chance to get "hooked". They blew a big opportunity, especially now that FCPX is beginning to mature.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 9:22:54 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "That said, I do believe Adobe blew it as far as their timing - there was a HUGE window open, a giant gift from Apple, and all they had to do was postpone the whole subscription only thing for one more rev. CC is good enough that they would have hooked many more Premiere users that wouldn't mind paying the monthly fee because they actually liked the software. But by going forward too soon, they slammed the window shut from the inside for obviously thousands of professional and casual users that will never have the chance to get "hooked". They blew a big opportunity, especially now that FCPX is beginning to mature."

That about sums it up!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 9:37:01 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "That said, I do believe Adobe blew it as far as their timing - there was a HUGE window open, a giant gift from Apple, and all they had to do was postpone the whole subscription only thing for one more rev. CC is good enough that they would have hooked many more Premiere users that wouldn't mind paying the monthly fee because they actually liked the software. But by going forward too soon, they slammed the window shut from the inside for obviously thousands of professional and casual users that will never have the chance to get "hooked". They blew a big opportunity, especially now that FCPX is beginning to mature."

+1

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 9:38:42 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "That said, I do believe Adobe blew it as far as their timing - there was a HUGE window open, a giant gift from Apple, and all they had to do was postpone the whole subscription only thing for one more rev. CC is good enough that they would have hooked many more Premiere users that wouldn't mind paying the monthly fee because they actually liked the software. But by going forward too soon, they slammed the window shut from the inside for obviously thousands of professional and casual users that will never have the chance to get "hooked". They blew a big opportunity, especially now that FCPX is beginning to mature."

Perhaps, but I don't think there would have been a 'better' time.

People would unravel just as they have now, proclaiming that Adobe waited on purpose, and baited them to switch and then tuned on a subscription service to lock them in. I think the CC model entices casual users more so than professionals.

I think that Adobe did this all on their own. They wanted to get around certain licensing laws to release a some development hand cuffs, which frees the developers to work on parts of the software that need work, but wouldn't have sold a new box of CSNext. I truly think CC will be better for the user in the long run. I have no idea if the business model will sustain. If I take my CC experience as a sample, I will say that it probably will. Every single new Adobe file I have received from other artists has been CC. It's working for some folks, obviously.

And even though I like FCPX a lot, I have not received an FCPX project yet, or have I been asked to deliver one.

I still think a lower price would be the most prudent.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 10:03:39 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Perhaps, but I don't think there would have been a 'better' time."

I couldn't disagree more. This is like a re-hash over the discussion of whether the FCPX launch was handled properly. I think in both cases management acted like idiots.

To make this personal I have a son, now almost 27 years old. When he was a kid his biggest gripe was when we sprang something on him, "without warning" as he would constantly complain - whether it was a visit to a relative, a new restaurant we were going to, a doctor's visit he was resisting - over and over the complaint was that it wasn't fair because he had no time to prepare. And yes I think we are all 10 year old's under the surface - and with some of us the surface isn't too deep.

I believe that for both Apple and Adobe a one year warning would have ameliorated a lot, but not all, of the hostility. That year would have allowed for feedback both ways and then whatever the final outcome nobody could complain they were ambushed.

In Adobe's case going all out on the Cloud right at the moment they were poised to make huge inroads in the NLE market made the handling of things even more grotesquely stupid.

If CC is of such a benefit to subscribers, letting it co-exist with the perpetual market for a few years would allow the word of it's superiority to spread naturally -- and there's no marketing better than positive peer reviews. Instead they created a market place full of suspicion and hostility, potential users drowning in a sea of invective, hysteria, and mis-information which would have been avoided with a gradual switch. The fact that this last sentence applied to FCPX 3 years ago, and that Adobe management didn't learn anything from that debacle, is scarcely a credit to their sagacity.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 10:29:30 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I couldn't disagree more. This is like a re-hash over the discussion of whether the FCPX launch was handled properly. I think in both cases management acted like idiots."

I don't see how they could have done anything different, Apple or Adobe.

There is no way to tell your customers to transition slowly. The company would be waiting forever.

Apple could simply afford to do what they did. They might not have been able to afford to convert FCP7 to AVFoundation, just for example. Or put it up on the AppStore, or get is sandboxed, or all of the things that have changed with Apple over the last few years. Why sink development time in to an application you know is dead? It doesn't make sense from Apple's POV, and for us, everything still works in FCS3 even in Mavericks.

Even CS 5.5 had some subscription based pricing, CS6 has both perpetual and cloud. CC is all cloud. So, there was a transition, and CS6 is still being updated. I am not sure what else Adobe could have done. An announcement saying that "In 2 years, we are going subscription!" would have done nothing good for Adobe. The exit strategy is a never ending perpetual CS6 license.

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/201110/100311AdobeC...

[Herb Sevush] "Instead they created a market place full of suspicion and hostility, potential users drowning in a sea of invective, hysteria, and mis-information which would have been avoided with a gradual switch. The fact that this last sentence applied to FCPX 3 years ago, and that Adobe management didn't learn anything from that debacle, is scarcely a credit to their sagacity."

I think the marketplace has always been hostile and suspect, we just finally got to see what people were really feeling. After all, we have been doing a gradual switch. Our company has not fully committed to anything, except for the Mac platform. Other production tools in our business are forcing me out of FCP7, and I will be better for it. I did nothing abruptly, and I am sure Apple or Adobe would have wanted me to move a lot faster. This was the only way they would get the bulk of people to move, slowly or not.

Adobe has very mature software, but it is really starting to feel old, and this model allows them to freshen it up a lot more quickly. It's already happening. I still don't really like Pr, but that's just me.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 10:38:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't see how they could have done anything different, Apple or Adobe."

Apple could have continued to sell Legacy openly for another year. They could have continued modest upgrading to it. They could have brought out the public beta of X and said, this is where we are going, we want your feedback, but this is where we are going.

Adobe could have announced that that they were going to end perpetual licenses in the coming years, but would allow both CS and CC to co-exist for long enough to convince everyone of the merits of CC. Instead they had denied that perpetual licensing was going to be ended up until they announced it was going to be ended.

[Jeremy Garchow] "There is no way to tell your customers to transition slowly."

OS9 to OS10

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 10:52:37 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Apple could have continued to sell Legacy openly for another year."

Why would they drag the legacy any further than they needed to? Why keep supporting it and printing the books and printing the DVDs when it's dead?

[Herb Sevush] "They could have continued modest upgrading to it. They could have brought out the public beta of X and said, this is where we are going, we want your feedback, but this is where we are going."

What would this have done for Apple? How would this have made any more business sense? The plan was already in play. The OS changes, the AppStore, hardware changes, all of that was heading down the road. FCS3 didn't fit in to the plan.

[Herb Sevush] "Adobe could have announced that that they were going to end perpetual licenses in the coming years, but would allow both CS and CC to co-exist for long enough to convince everyone of the merits of CC. Instead they had denied that perpetual licensing was going to be ended up until they announced it was going to be ended. "

You can still buy a CS6 perpetual license. The transition clock started when CC was announced. Adobe has said that they will support as long as they can (I think they said at least 5 years). I don't know what else they could do besides give everything away for free on the way to financial ruin.

[Herb Sevush] "OS9 to OS10"

That is very different. OSX took a long time to come in to its own, and it's now (many years later) free. The revenue of OSX was not going to make to break Apple and they knew it.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 11:02:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " OSX took a long time to come in to its own, and it's now (many years later) free. The revenue of OSX was not going to make to break Apple and they knew it."

Replace "OSX" with "FCPX" and other than the free part, which it might eventually get to, the sentence works perfectly. OSX was the proper model for the FCPX transition. As to you other question ...

[Jeremy Garchow] "What would this have done for Apple?"

It would have eliminated the need for our favorite forum.

[Jeremy Garchow] "The transition clock started when CC was announced."

No it did not. It started when they announced that they wre EOL'ing perpetual. Microsoft office has a subscription service, Quickbooks has a subscription service. I own both products, I have no intention of subscribing to either and I don't expect either of them to dump their perpetual products. The clock starts when you say it does -- Adobe was frequently asked if the Cloud meant the end of perpetual when they first brought it out and they constantly denied it. Like my son at age 10 I get very fussy when I am lied to.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 11:24:43 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Replace "OSX" with "FCPX" and other than the free part, which it might eventually get to, the sentence works perfectly. OSX was the proper model for the FCPX transition. As to you other question ..."

An operating system is completely different. It is not an application.

[Herb Sevush] "No it did not. It started when they announced that they wre EOL'ing perpetual. Microsoft office has a subscription service, Quickbooks has a subscription service. I own both products, I have no intention of subscribing to either and I don't expect either of them to dump their perpetual products. The clock starts when you say it does -- Adobe was frequently asked if the Cloud meant the end of perpetual when they first brought it out and they constantly denied it. Like my son at age 10 I get very fussy when I am lied to."

We will forever see this differently. Perpetual is not EOL'd. CS6 isn't even EOL'd, you can still buy it.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 11:42:16 pm

> CS6 isn't even EOL'd, you can still buy it.


We're even still releasing updates for it:
http://adobe.ly/DVA_updates

We just released an After Effects CS6 bug-fix update a month ago, and Premiere Pro, SpeedGrade, and Adobe Media Encoder have all released multiple CS6 updates since CC was released.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:23:23 am

Jeremy you're fighting over nothing. The fact is that Premiere Pro 7 is the FIRST Adobe NLE that has a solid feature set that could satisfy just about any Editor on any level. Sorry but CS6 did NOT.

Had Adobe waited at least one more rev PPro 7 might have gotten the traction it deserved in the higher workplace (not that it's still not making progress obviously - I'm using it every day) but there would have been ZERO hostility and I'll bet most of those CS6ers on here that refuse to upgrade would have naturally upgraded as necessary. They would have ordered there nice new box of DVD's or updated online and be happy owners of the new version.

The Adobe blunder is plain as day and totally sad because PPro 7 is a great NLE (far from perfect) and can only get better. Unless they reverse course and start selling fully licenses copies, the damage is down. As FCPX matures what Editor wouldn't give it a try - 30 day free trial and then just $299 to OWN IT!

As far as Apple not affording to do things, they can do whatever they want - they've got tens of billions of cash reserves just sitting. They could have easily come out with a 64bit FCP8 and slowly weaned us into the newer system if they wanted. They could buy Adobe for breakfast, Avid for coffee break and shut them both down by lunch if they wanted.

Apple blew it but they will recover, Adobe blew it even bigger because they're a software company. Apple stills sell hardware and devices to disgruntled FCP7 users, Adobe can limp along with Photoshop for $9.99 month for years I suppose.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 2:44:45 am

[Lance Bachelder] "Jeremy you're fighting over nothing. The fact is that Premiere Pro 7 is the FIRST Adobe NLE that has a solid feature set that could satisfy just about any Editor on any level. Sorry but CS6 did NOT."

First, I'm not fighting. Second, I agree with you. My qualms with Pr are the fact that I think it could be much better. I find the UI to be very clunky. I, for one, am not looking for FCP8, I am looking for something else.

[Lance Bachelder] "Had Adobe waited at least one more rev PPro 7 might have gotten the traction it deserved in the higher workplace (not that it's still not making progress obviously - I'm using it every day) but there would have been ZERO hostility and I'll bet most of those CS6ers on here that refuse to upgrade would have naturally upgraded as necessary. They would have ordered there nice new box of DVD's or updated online and be happy owners of the new version."

I just don't think zero hostility is possible. It never would have happened. The band-aid was ripped off and there is no good time to do it. There was 'no good way' to slowly ease Adobe users in to a water bath. If that happened, people would have looked elsewhere immediately, just like some people are doing now. Pr is probably the least of Adobe's concern. It had a loyal following to those that used it, but that's about it. Ps, Ai, Id, Ae, and perhaps now Lr those are Adobe's core, so much so Adobe catered to a photographers' version of CC.

[Lance Bachelder] "As far as Apple not affording to do things, they can do whatever they want - they've got tens of billions of cash reserves just sitting. "

It's not about the money. By afford, I mean afford the time.

I was commenting on Herb's comment of keeping FCS3 alive while starting with something new. Apple couldn't really afford, in the long run, to keep developing two sets of unrelated ProApps. Sure, they could have hired more people to physically afford it, but why do that? It seems silly.

And why try and wedge a future "FCS 4" in to an AppStore model? It just doesn't fit by Apple's standards, quite literally. There is not a suite oaf apps available on the AppStore that I know of, you buy them all separately. It doesn't matter what we think is technically feasible.

Ironically, it's exactly what Adobe is doing in leaving CS6 available for purchase (and actively bug fixed) and moving on to the next generation in CC.

[Lance Bachelder] "They could have easily come out with a 64bit FCP8 and slowly weaned us into the newer system if they wanted. They could buy Adobe for breakfast, Avid for coffee break and shut them both down by lunch if they wanted."

But why would they want to do that? Adobe users and Avid users buy Macs, sometimes they buy a lot of them. It boggles my mind when I walk in these big (and small) design agencies and see the amount of Macs and iProducts sitting around. None of them have FCP7 on them, but they all have CC. Why would Apple want to buy that out? I can't think of a good reason.

[Lance Bachelder] "Apple blew it but they will recover, Adobe blew it even bigger because they're a software company. Apple stills sell hardware and devices to disgruntled FCP7 users, Adobe can limp along with Photoshop for $9.99 month for years I suppose."

I also said that Apple was the only company that could afford to do what they did, and I meant throwing a stick of dynamite at a loyal user base. They don't have to recover, Apple is already doing OK.

Adobe, didn't blow it either. They may have lost some customers, and my guess is that they had an idea that this was going to happen. This wasn't a mistake and I bet it wasn't underestimated. If people are asking for an exit strategy, and Adobe seem to have said they agree with that (http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/our-move-to-creative-cloud-an-update/), then I do think that Adobe customers should hold Adobe to that statement. It's only fair.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 7:16:01 am

I stand corrected on every point, the great and powerful Jer has spoken.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:58:26 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "I stand corrected on every point, the great and powerful Jer has spoken."

It's not like that, Lance.

I am merely throwing my hat in to the ring and offering opinion.


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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 24, 2014 at 11:57:15 pm

Wow. I didn't realize you were still fixing CS6.

Subclips are great, but when they are in the timeline cannot be slipped.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 25, 2014 at 12:09:10 am

> Wow. I didn't realize you were still fixing CS6.


Yep. Still selling, supporting, and patching it.

We'll likely be issuing another After Effects CS6 bug-fix update this spring to fix a couple of bugs, including one introduced by Mac OS X v10.9 (Mavericks) and another introduced by the new Illustrator.

That said, the barrier to clear for fixing a bug in CS6 applications is higher than that for fixing a bug in the current version.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:24:27 am

Exactly!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 10:11:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I still think a lower price would be the most prudent."

yeah - but the financial presentation barely holds water with the monthly bill as it is - and for that to work at all requires them to hit very high into 3+ million in around 12 months.

It's an old saw, but once they are there, the subscription price can literally only go north. this entire exercise has a massive banner headline that reads:

"Build a viable, monetisable subscriber base."

once they have the subscriber base, they almost immediately have to start monetising it incrementally. I'd guess CC will be close to eight hundred dollars annually by the latter end of 2017. after that it just keeps going north. They have a catchment. by 2018 that catchment will be highly captive, and its very likely there will still be no viable alternatives for the monopoly tools like PS AE and ID.

They're a corporation, its not hard to think what they will do in that scenario - and you'd have to think there are massive investment impediments for new entrants to produce a viable competitor to something like PS or AE. Who on the playing field is actually likely to undertake that effort?

If the user numbers stagnate, which they really might, then adobe have to reassess and hit the subscription even harder.

Once Adobe break the entire twenty year long tail that stretches out to the 8-9 million CS subscribers, once that entire historical base dissolves away, then a lot of this stuff feels nearly half inevitable.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 10:54:21 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yeah - but the financial presentation barely holds water with the monthly bill as it is - and for that to work at all requires them to hit very high into 3+ million in around 12 months."

You know how I feel about it; it's not about the money, but it's about the money.

It's not about being charged every month, but it's about being charged every month.

We all can handle monthly charges, it's where the entire world is heading, and in some cases, unless you are buying durable goods, it has been this way forever.

The difference between Adobe's model and other models is that we are paying for a bunch of shit we don't need. I would feel better if I didn't have to pay for all of that development when I don't need it.

I didn't pay for the Master Collection, I didn't need it. Now I do have to pay for it whether I want to or not.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 12:17:51 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's not about being charged every month, but it's about being charged every month."

"The difference between Adobe's model and other models is that we are paying for a bunch of shit we don't need. I would feel better if I didn't have to pay for all of that development when I don't need it.

I didn't pay for the Master Collection, I didn't need it. Now I do have to pay for it whether I want to or not.
"


quite that garchow.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 9:54:06 pm

I realize that CC isn't a "true" SaaS model. Let me get that out of the way. But remember the last S there stands for service. Adobe has added a ton of useful services to their software line and they keep adding more. There's a lot more to it then just renting your programs. And certainly there's more to come.

The lack of constraints in regard to 12-18 month release cycles is something every developer dreams of. Staying ahead of the market and being able to respond to market changes is what every customer will say they want and what every development organization is tasked with. Adobe is doing a great job with this now.

As for the timing, I've talked with a couple of big tech CTOs about this very thing and they've ALL said that there's never a good time to do it other than to do it before your competition does it. To be the first (and I know you can argue about existing subscription services, but Adobe is the big one in our industry) and to be doing it as well as they are is really quite a feat.

Choice/competition is good. Wanna edit with FCPX? Buying a Mac is your cost of admission. Wanna composite with After Effects? Subscribe to CC. Apple provides services for every Mac user/buyer. Adobe does the same. Choose.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 10:23:01 pm

[Paul Neumann] "Choice/competition is good. Wanna edit with FCPX? Buying a Mac is your cost of admission. Wanna composite with After Effects? Subscribe to CC. Apple provides services for every Mac user/buyer. Adobe does the same. Choose."

Avid.
Lightworks.
Almost anything else.

Adobe is not the first to offer SS. They are just the first major company to EOL every other channel of distribution. I don't see how this offers them a competitive advantage.

This argument about speed of innovation is way overblown. Let any company produce qualitative improvements once a year, year after year, and they will have happy customers and repeat business.

Forced subscriptions might work for them as long as Photoshop and AE are "essentials" in their respective markets.

It has absolutely hurt them in terms of PPro acceptance, which was poised on being a flood until CC happened. Because with NLEs PPro is NOT a "must have," and given any other choice a large share of the market will avoid it if possible. That is not the way to become a market leader.

If I choose to use CC because it is my best choice at this moment I will always be on the lookout for a better alternative to switch to - which is not the kind of behavior that grows a customer base, nor is it the kind of behavior I prefer.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 21, 2014 at 11:23:19 pm

This argument about speed of innovation is way overblown. Let any company produce qualitative improvements once a year, year after year, and they will have happy customers and repeat business.

With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. Somebody was going to do this and Adobe decided it was going to be them.

"Recently, the bank’s senior VP of software engineering and quality assurance, Anne Hungate, was interviewed in greater depth about Union Bank’s experience.

She explained that the bank was feeling the pressure to keep up with customer demands for mobile access to services. Customers want – expect – constant innovation and products free of software bugs.

“The nature of banking has changed, and we need to keep up with it,” she said. “If we want to grow, which we do, continuous innovation is fundamental.”

The other thing all organizations face today is extreme competition on all sides. Getting products to market quickly is a matter of survival."

http://servicevirtualization.com/profiles/blogs/union-bank-service-virtuali...

So yeah this a bank reference. But banks are software companies. Hell, everybody's a software company. Adobe most definitely is.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:05:20 am

[Paul Neumann] "So yeah this a bank reference. But banks are software companies. Hell, everybody's a software company. Adobe most definitely is."

But Adobe doesn't operate in the retail consumer sphere. Their potential audience is much smaller, more highly trained, more specific in their needs. The idea that I would jump to Avid from Adobe as quickly as I might switch a bank account is ridiculous. People used to open new bank accounts for a free toaster and your comparing that to the kind of human investment that a company makes in it's primary tools? I don't think so.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Neumann
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 2:03:40 am
Last Edited By Paul Neumann on Jan 22, 2014 at 2:27:03 am

But their ability to respond to advancements in mobile, new video formats, e-publishing, web delivery, online learning, cameras, codecs and on and is what they have to be able to do. Today you can be passed by and rendered an also-ran in the course of one quarter. CC isn't just about PPro. The only way to lead and maximize, not just profits but benefits to customers, is to go to this subscription model. Not for the money upfront, but for the money that isn't outlaid the old way and is put towards the development of the new software we all want.

And say what you want, but the collective "we" wants new software. And we'll go wherever to get it. "I don't know what the interest rate is on my checking account, but I can take a picture of my check with my phone and it gets deposited." That's software. That's not toasters. And that's what the business world is dealing with. That's what Adobe is dealing with. If you had to wait 12 months to get the updates to PPro that have been pushed since June you'd be so far into another editor you'd never come out. It would be too little too late.

I get that you may not give a damn what you can do in Muse but there're designers out there that are pissed they have to pay for Audition in much the same way.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 4:15:33 am

[Paul Neumann] "If you had to wait 12 months to get the updates to PPro that have been pushed since June you'd be so far into another editor you'd never come out. It would be too little too late."

I waited 3 years for an updated FCP and didn't jump ship. Avid releases are yearly, their editors aren't going anywhere. FCPX has barely changed in the last year till version 10.1, which was mostly under the hood improvements - yet I don't see their users leaving en masse. I can't think of a single application that is loosing users because they don't update more than once a year.

I'm not saying it isn't nice to have quicker releases, I'm not saying it isn't AN advantage, I am saying it is not the end-all-and-be-all that you are making it out to be. And I'm also saying that Adobe makes business products, not consumer products, and pretending the two markets are the same is silly.


[Paul Neumann] "I get that you may not give a damn what you can do in Muse but there're designers out there that are pissed they have to pay for Audition in much the same way."

True, which is why it would be to many user's advantage for Adobe to offer different bundles for subscription at different price points. However it is to Adobe's advantage not to care. I don't blame them, they can bundle their products any way they want, and the price at this moment is reasonable enough for me, but let's not pretend that I'm getting a bargain by being offered a bunch of software I will never have any use for in order to get access to the few programs I want.

[Paul Neumann] "CC isn't just about PPro. The only way to lead and maximize, not just profits but benefits to customers, is to go to this subscription model. Not for the money upfront, but for the money that isn't outlaid the old way and is put towards the development of the new software we all want."

The "only way", really?? What evidence do you have for that assertion other than Adobe's claim, because unless I'm missing something every other company in the world seems to feel differently. Every other market leading software company seems to be able to maximize profits without forcing subscription rentals on their customers - what is it that makes them so wrong and Adobe so right?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 2:52:37 am

[Herb Sevush] "This argument about speed of innovation is way overblown. Let any company produce qualitative improvements once a year, year after year, and they will have happy customers and repeat business."

A year ago I would have agreed with you but getting feature updates as soon as they are ready, as opposed to waiting a year or two, is nice (I'm sure FCPX users would say the same thing).




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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 4:25:08 am

[Andrew Kimery] "A year ago I would have agreed with you but getting feature updates as soon as they are ready, as opposed to waiting a year or two, is nice (I'm sure FCPX users would say the same thing)."

FCP users were getting pissed when 2 years went by without an update, yet very few were jumping ship because of that. For a FCP Legacy user getting meaningful feature updates yearly would have been a huge improvement. I'm not saying it isn't an advantage to get quicker updates, I'm just saying I wouldn't trade a perpetual license for that feature alone. And despite this whole Sorbane-Oxley thing bug fixes and adding codec's are allowed to happen more than once a year, it's just "new features" that have to be accounted for.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 4:50:47 am

[Herb Sevush] "And despite this whole Sorbane-Oxley thing bug fixes and adding codec's are allowed to happen more than once a year, it's just "new features" that have to be accounted for."

Bingo. The Sorbane-Oxley argument is a red herring.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 5:16:54 am

[David Lawrence] "Bingo. The Sorbane-Oxley argument is a red herring.
"


In what sense?

Maybe we should ask Avid about it?


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David Lawrence
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 6:57:18 am
Last Edited By David Lawrence on Jan 22, 2014 at 6:59:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "In what sense? "

In the sense that it doesn't force Adobe to have a subscription-only business model with no other options.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Maybe we should ask Avid about it?"

Maybe we should ask Autodesk about it?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 6:52:04 am

> The Sorbane-Oxley argument is a red herring.


No, it's not. It's a central factor.

It's late at night here, and I don't want to retype all of the explanations that have already been typed on this forum that you're dismissing. All that I can say is that we were _severely_ restricted by these accounting regulations before, and now we are not... entirely because you are no longer paying for a specific version of software; you are paying for a subscription that gives you access to whatever software we have available. This allows me to talk publicly with you about the future versions in detail and it allows me to release a feature when it's ready, without needing to go back and restate my earnings for the entire quarter in which you paid for the software.

Note Jeremy's comment about Avid. Companies can be destroyed by this piece of accounting regulation that you call a red herring.

By the way, some _hardware_ companies who also sell a little software on the side have decided to go a different route and defer software revenue to future quarters. A software company doesn't have that as a realistic choice.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 12:39:12 pm

That does not explain, why an exit strategy is impossible.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:48:20 pm

Its impossible becase of greed and a need for controlling power.

Ricardo Marty


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 1:52:57 pm

I suspected...


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 4:04:43 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "That does not explain, why an exit strategy is impossible."

Who said an exit strategy is impossible?


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 7:24:11 pm

Right.
That doesn´t explain the missing exit strategy.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 2:19:46 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "This allows me to talk publicly with you about the future versions in detail and it allows me to release a feature when it's ready, without needing to go back and restate my earnings for the entire quarter in which you paid for the software."

Two things.

While I find it a great advantage to deal with a company that is free to discuss it's future intentions, I should point out that Adobe uses that freedom only when it chooses. Where is that freedom when discussing an exit strategy? where is that freedom when it comes to discussing the whole Cloud vs Perpetual war ? With all that freedom Adobe chooses to say absolutely nothing when it pleases them, so while it's nice to hear in advance about AE aiming for speed increases, I'm not all that impressed with the freedom that subscription distribution brings.

Secondly, we're not saying that avoiding SOX isn't an advantage, it obviously is. But is the advantage of getting smaller upgrades 6 months faster worth the uncertainty and lack of exit strategy that the Cloud currently provides. For me it is not. It's an advantage, but it's not nearly as important as basic functionality and dependability of the tools we use, so trying to sell the Cloud purely on speed of upgrade seems a tad silly. It's a nice perk, if that's the direction your heading in anyway, otherwise it's fairly minor, at least from a user's perspective.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 2:28:20 pm

1+


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 22, 2014 at 9:03:01 am

[Herb Sevush] "FCP users were getting pissed when 2 years went by without an update, yet very few were jumping ship because of that. "

Jump ship to what in the mid/late 2000's?? A vastly more expensive solution in Avid? A vastly less developed system in PPro? Sony Vegas? Smoke? What was the viable option to switch to when the rather lame FCP 7 and Color 1.5 updates hit store shelves? By the time Apple dropped the X bombshell PPro was a lot more mature and Avid was a lot cheaper which is why so many people loudly said, "F-you very much, Apple" and picked up a competing NLE.

[Herb Sevush] " And despite this whole Sorbane-Oxley thing bug fixes and adding codec's are allowed to happen more than once a year, it's just "new features" that have to be accounted for.
"


Right, that's why Adobe still issues support updates to CS6 where as various CC apps have received multiple feature updates since the launch in June.




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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 24, 2014 at 11:51:47 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "they slammed the window shut from the inside for obviously thousands of professional and casual users that will never have the chance to get "hooked". "

Hmm, I construe the exact opposite. Many kids, yes kids, can afford CC -- and producing amazing work! Without CC, the same kids could not afford the software.

Adobe CC opens doors -- what's behind that door? A lifetime of monthly rental fees. (And by "lifetime," I'm talking about a kid who is 21.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 25, 2014 at 2:00:22 am

[Richard Herd] "Adobe CC opens doors -- what's behind that door?"

yes. its half a question of what is actually happening with the suite in action.
they are point blank presenting the master suite now with gun boat diplomacy.

I half think I would like the rental as a student - but I am insanely curious to know what parts of it provide shareholder best avenue to the future: is it PS subscription? Dreamweaver? Flash? AE? ID?

I get it is difficult to measure volatile assets, but demanding a forced combined mid-term arc down stagnant subscription outcome feels weird.
it doesn't feel an accurate assessment of inherent value and risk.

given the failure of the growth web tools, there have to be other ways to view adobe assets.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Richard Herd
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Feb 5, 2014 at 10:23:14 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I half think I would like the rental as a student - but I am insanely curious to know what parts of it provide shareholder best avenue to the future: is it PS subscription? Dreamweaver? Flash? AE? ID?"

Now that's a good question. I'm sure NASDAQ:ADBE has hired a swarm of MBAs to figure it analyze it.

I'm on CS6 pretty heavy now, and I don't see how I can do my job without Photoshop and Illustrator. Even if I moved to All Apple (and I like FCPX as a cutter, would have to learn Motion), I would still need Photoshop for its craquluer and Illustrator for its amazing vector. I have never used Dreamweaver and the one time I tried I said, "Pox on you," and learned HTML5 -- not so difficult really. I used In Design CS4 a lot a few years back, but I haven't even touched it since 2010. Flash is actually used a lot in the gaming world, and by gaming, I mean here in Nevada: slot machines: Caesars, Bally's, IGT. It's all flash.


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David Lawrence
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 25, 2014 at 12:11:19 am

[Lance Bachelder] "That said, I do believe Adobe blew it as far as their timing - there was a HUGE window open, a giant gift from Apple, and all they had to do was postpone the whole subscription only thing for one more rev. CC is good enough that they would have hooked many more Premiere users that wouldn't mind paying the monthly fee because they actually liked the software. But by going forward too soon, they slammed the window shut from the inside for obviously thousands of professional and casual users that will never have the chance to get "hooked". They blew a big opportunity, especially now that FCPX is beginning to mature."

Spot on.

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Peter Wiley
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 24, 2014 at 4:43:57 pm

No, because the CC system as currently is an unreasonable intrusion on copyright.

Executive Producer
Arbour Media LLC


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Jan 24, 2014 at 6:03:20 pm

Hmmmm.... whose copyright? I'm not following this reason.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Peter Wiley
Re: Creative Cloud yes or no?
on Feb 5, 2014 at 4:02:24 pm
Last Edited By Peter Wiley on Feb 5, 2014 at 4:03:50 pm

In order for any work to be subject to copyright it must be, as law an practice dictate, "fixed in a tangible form". Computer files saved to a disk are one such tangible form irrespective of the software used to create them.

Now comes Adobe who makes access to certain files contingent on payment of a subscription fee. This raises issues about whether any CC file can be considered a "tangible form".

For a great many people in the production and post-production industries who do "work for hire" and sell or release rights to their work this isn't a big issue, but for others it may become one. It may also become one for the ultimate rights holders/owners of a work.

Executive Producer
Arbour Media LLC


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