FORUMS: list search recent posts

Thought You'd Be Interested To See This

COW Forums : Adobe Creative Cloud Debate

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Dave LaRonde
Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 12, 2014 at 12:00:19 am

Steve Forde, Mr. Adobe After Effects himself, asks the burning question, "What if we did NOTHING else in After Effects during 2014 other than make it faster?"

Read it for yourself here:
http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2014/01/happy-new-year-and-a-question.h...

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 12, 2014 at 12:20:06 am
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Jan 12, 2014 at 1:57:21 am

I don't use AE very much but it's already a very mature product and if Adobe could make it incredibly faster than it is today (like real time playback becomes the norm) I'd be down for it.

He goes on to say, "To be frank, that’s not what’s in the works currently for 2014. A lot of our developer resources are going to focus on performance, but also on workflow and creative capability."

I think a massive speed improvement would definitely qualify as a enhancing "creative capability".




Return to posts index

Todd Kopriva
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 12, 2014 at 1:22:23 am

I can't give too many internal details away, but I can say that we already have a very large fraction of our team dedicated to performance improvements that we hope to release this year. Steve is wondering if we should commit even more of our team to this effort. But, even if we did, we'd still have some creative and workflow features coming out in the next couple of releases, since we've already got some in development.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to posts index


Justin Crowell
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 4:17:11 pm

I want to give a +1 to the performance improvement over feature/workflow improvement thing. AE does about 95% of the things I want it to do. But it plateaus pretty quickly even on killin' hardware. As Chris mentions: speed is actually a creative issue, as bad performance holds back the fluidity of use. I don't love motion, but I appreciate its speed.

Editor, Producer, DP
JustinCrowell.com


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 5:15:11 pm

Justin, just a friendly reminder that your +1 here doesn't count, as Steve won't see it.

It would count here on Steve's blog:
http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2014/01/happy-new-year-and-a-question.h...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Justin Crowell
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 5:16:47 pm
Last Edited By Justin Crowell on Jan 13, 2014 at 5:21:12 pm

Edit: Wow, looking at that post, I'm amazed at how everyone seems to agree with me. I really hope Adobe listens on this issue (Ryan's post itself leaves me somewhat impressed that they reached out at all!).

Good call, Walter. I was hoping Todd would pass it along, but
you're right.

Editor, Producer, DP
JustinCrowell.com


Return to posts index


Chris Pettit
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 12, 2014 at 5:19:20 am

[Andrew Kimery] "if Adobe could make it incredibly faster than it is today (like real time playback becomes the norm) I'd be down for it."

Real-time? Under what circumstances? There is no such thing as real-time in AE as the "norm". It's a matter of how much processing and math calculations you're throwing at it. What plugins? What CPU? What GPU? How many layers? How much pre-composing? Color correction? Particle count? Cineware? INFINITE factors... No matter what speed increase you can accomplish, I can crush it with more layers and effects.

Speed increases are a big issue, always worth it. But real-time as the norm? Not really...


Return to posts index

Morten Ranmar
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 12, 2014 at 2:02:35 pm

Let us at least see realtime audio playback without having to "preview".

When Motion came out I was astonished about the amount of realtime it provided. But then again it constantly crashed, making it useless - so the lesson is that there needs to be a balance between performance and stability.

- No Parking Production -

Adobe CC, 3 x MacPro, 3 x MbP, Ethernet File Server w. Areca ThunderRaid 8.... and FCPX on trial


Return to posts index

David Mathis
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 12, 2014 at 6:19:56 pm

Bring back the old license model as well and I am in. Sorry, but I just don't feel all that good about a subscription only model.


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 12, 2014 at 9:40:38 pm

[Chris Pettit] "Real-time? Under what circumstances? There is no such thing as real-time in AE as the "norm". It's a matter of how much processing and math calculations you're throwing at it"

I knew I was going to get dinged for being vague. ;)

The point I ineloquently tried to get across was that if the Adobe team was able to boost the speed of AE by a mind blowing amount (mostly likely by better levering the GPU/multiple GPUs) then I think that would worth 12 months of no new feature updates.




Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 12, 2014 at 10:42:55 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I knew I was going to get dinged for being vague. ;)"

Sorry Andrew, didn't mean ding you.

I kind of agree with you. IF I was using CC I would think that might be a trade-off worth considering. With previous versions the AE team has achieved some pretty dramatic speed increases, particularly leveraging CUDA cores, maximizing RAM in a 64bit environment etc. (I actually think CS6 is pretty damn speedy - considering what you can do with it - over previous versions)

Render speed is not just 'production important', it's 'creative important'. The speed increases we got in CS5 and CS6 have definitely helped me be more productive and push the envelope with what I can do with AE. From what Todd was saying, sounds like you guys may get both speed and features.


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 5:44:46 pm

I was intrigued by the way Mr. Forde seemed to steer the discussion to a single-issue: make AE faster.

That's not a bad thing at all, but there could be other important ones.

AE working better with third-party plugins could be one; e.g. people seem to have trouble with Video Copilot offerings.
Simplifying the user interface could be another: there are buttons, toggles and panels all over the place, and are they all in the most intuitive, easiest-to-use places they could be?
Simplifying the use of some of AE's features also comes to mind: wouldn't it be nice if Rotobrush would work more ituitively?

And then there are the 800-pound gorillas: subscription-only and lack of an exit strategy.

I'm sure there are other issues of particular interest to certain people. I find it interesting that everyone seems to be addressing speed only. It's almost like it's offered up as a diversion from other issues.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Justin Crowell
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 5:52:39 pm

I appreciate what you're saying, Dave, but I totally disagree. AE certainly has a quirky interface. But those of us who have spent a long time with it tend not to be super concerned with that. It's not particularly intuitive, but I am really not too bothered by that. As you say, it's specific concerns for each person--but the one concern most of us seem to share is speed.

What I AM bothered by is the feeling that experimentation is way too laggy to keep up with my brain. I hate having to turn off FX, lights, and 3D just to try a few different things. It's frustrating, and feels like an antiquated way to work.

Like many people are saying, if Adobe were to dedicate 90% of their AE resources this year to speeding it up, and the remaining 10% to bug fixes, we'd be happy campers.

As far as the subscription model thing...I don't think that's related to this conversation. By all means, make all teams at Adobe aware of your discontent (as I have done, myself), but this is a technical discussion. It's about the priorities of a team with limited resources.

Editor, Producer, DP
JustinCrowell.com


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 6:21:53 pm

[Justin Crowell] "...this is a technical discussion. It's about the priorities of a team with limited resources."

...and it doesn't hurt one bit to reiterate one's discontent over other issues. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
By NOT reiterating discontent, one may indicate submission to an unacceptagble situation or tacit approval.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 7:05:38 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "I find it interesting that everyone seems to be addressing speed only. It's almost like it's offered up as a diversion from other issues."

I guess you find what you look for, but I see no sinister motives here. I see the Ae team trying to figure out the best way to make their users happier.

I don't see how the Ae team can address your concerns about Creative Cloud. They build the product; someone else figures out how to sell it. Your feedback on licensing is certainly valid, but it doesn't answer the question posed here of how to allocate limited development resources.

I think that performance is a creative feature and improving it should be the highest priority of the Ae team. Better performance means fewer concentraction-killing interruptions during work, and greater ability to experiment and iterate.

How many times a day do I hit 0 for RAM preview -- and then wait? Then make a tweak and do it all again? How many times a day do I scrub a parameter -- and then wait to see the result? Then scrub it a little more and wait a little more?

In my mind, improving performance is all about minimizing or eliminating these bottlenecks in the creative process that affect every Ae user, every day. Other apps can outperform Ae on the same (or lesser) hardware. This should change ASAP.

As an aside, I see this whole discussion as one of the positive consequences of Creative Cloud: focusing on keeping current subscribers happy with boring updates that solve everyday problems, not just slapping shiny new features on the tin to try to sell upgrades. I'm not confident that a Creative Suite product manager would have been able to keep his job if he suggested a major release with no new features and "just" performance improvement. The fact that Steve can directly discuss the elephants in the room is a good thing.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Todd Kopriva
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 7:18:55 pm
Last Edited By Todd Kopriva on Jan 13, 2014 at 7:22:16 pm

> As an aside, I see this whole discussion as one of the positive consequences of Creative Cloud: focusing on keeping current subscribers happy with boring updates that solve everyday problems, not just slapping shiny new features on the tin to try to sell upgrades. I'm not confident that a Creative Suite product manager would have been able to keep his job if he suggested a major release with no new features and "just" performance improvement. The fact that Steve can directly discuss the elephants in the room is a good thing.


Walter nailed it.

We have spent several years _really_ wanting to spend a large block of time just focused on performance and stability, but we never before would have been allowed to do so.

In the past, we were forced to develop eye-catching glitzy features to try to attract new users. Now, we are allowed (even encouraged) to do things that keep _existing_ customers happy. We know that performance is the #1 thing to keep existing customers happy.

In reality, we're not going to spend an entire year just doing performance work. We will certainly do some creative features and workflow improvements. But maybe we'll dedicate half of the team's time to performance; maybe more than half. It's up to y'all. Right now, Steve is just asking the question to determine what that balance should be based on user feedback. His deliberately provocative post was written to provoke exactly this conversation that we're having here.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to posts index

David Smith
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 7:52:02 pm

I'll reiterate what I have before. Any improvements to the software moving forward whether it be faster speed or new glitzy features are completely worthless if we can't actually own it.

At this point, doing anything to AE is like continuing to build on to the Titanic after it hit the iceberg.

Once the option to purchase perpetual licenses for the newest versions is restored, then we can talk again...


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:14:20 pm

[David Smith] "I'll reiterate what I have before. Any improvements to the software moving forward whether it be faster speed or new glitzy features are completely worthless if we can't actually own it. At this point, doing anything to AE is like continuing to build on to the Titanic after it hit the iceberg. Once the option to purchase perpetual licenses for the newest versions is restored, then we can talk again..."

Those of us on the ship rather appreciate the band playing on.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

David Smith
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:21:33 pm

If I were stuck on-board I would too if nothing else then to distract me from the utter horror, but I'm much happier that I'm on one of the lifeboats than the sinking ship.


Return to posts index

Todd Kopriva
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:35:17 pm

David,

I'm not going to try to convince you to use Creative Cloud. I am, however, going to dispute the claim that the ship is sinking.

We have many more people using After Effects now than ever before.

I respect your decision to not subscribe. You have to do what you think is right for you. But don't think that this means that everyone agrees, and don't think that we are wrong to try to make After Effects the best that it can be for the very large (and growing) numbers of people who continue to use it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to posts index

David Smith
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:50:15 pm
Last Edited By David Smith on Jan 13, 2014 at 9:14:08 pm

Todd,

I think if someone took something you found beautiful and twisted it ugly overnight, you'd see a sinking ship too. I know everyone doesn't agree with me that forcing subscription is bad. But I think enough people do to signify that we have arrived at a truly tragic state of affairs.

You are absolutely right to continue to improve the software for those people who like subscription. At your level in the company, it is all you can do. Although, I do like to believe that if it was up to you as an individual, you would give us back the option to have perpetual licenses. You seem like an honest guy.

But your management is absolutely wrong to force the subscription model on those of us who always used the perpetually licensed version and had wished to continue to do so. For those of us who find subscribing absolutely unexceptionable, they have torn away from us the option to continue using this awesome software for the long haul as we had always planned. That's very sad.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:35:32 pm

[David Smith] "If I were stuck on-board I would too if nothing else then to distract me from the utter horror, but I'm much happier that I'm on one of the lifeboats than the sinking ship."

I really never should have responded above, accepting the premise of the analogy, because these comparisons of software licensing to loss of life are incendiary and do nothing to advance the conversation. My apologies to the group.

Needless to say, I do not think this is the tragedy that you do. I understand your reasons for disliking subscription licensing, but there are plenty of us who actually see benefits with subscription. You and I can respectfully disagree.

If you want to change the licensing, by all means submit your feedback.

However, I am paying for subscription, I'm very happy with how the products are improving, and I'm glad that we can provide some constructive feedback that will guide development of the apps we use.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

David Smith
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:51:30 pm

[Walter Soyka] "If you want to change the licensing, by all means submit your feedback."

Thank you, Walter. I will continue to submit my feedback.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 9:17:03 pm

[David Smith] "Thank you, Walter. I will continue to submit my feedback."

Sorry, David, I didn't mean to come across badly like that. I'm just trying to point out that I'm not trying to stifle your point of view, so I don't understand why you can't extend me the same courtesy. Is there no room on this forum for conversations that aren't indictments of subscription licensing?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

David Smith
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 9:52:15 pm

Okay, Walter, since I usually post on Facebook and not here, you probably don't know my full point of view, so, I will be as clear about this as I possibly can...

For people who want subscriptions, that is fine. I think you should be able to have subscriptions. I am not indicting subscriptions. My gripe here is the removal of the option that I wanted, which is a perpetual license. When subscription first came out back in 2012, when I could still buy the newest version, I thought that was great. It wasn't until a year later that problems started. Adobe's big mistake was not adding subscriptions; it was removing the perpetual license. So, I am not fighting against subscriptions. I am fighting for the return of the perpetual license.

I see a sinking ship because I see a corporation that removes choices for reasons that I see as lazy and greedy and then refuses to have an open dialogue with its customers about it. I also see a sinking ship because frankly, it's a product I will no longer be able to use when my owned copies of CS5.5 and CS6 become outdated. Changing my workflow over is and will be a huge hassle.

If it comes across like I'm attacking you or not extending you courtesy, it's because I was or am writing to Adobe or generally openly putting up a fight for the return of the perpetual license and someone like you who doesn't work for them but who likes subscription comes in and make a comment against me. So, what I see is not you defending subscription but you saying you don't want me to have a perpetual license. That's going to make me write something back.

There are some really nasty subscription-lovers on Facebook that can't seem to stand the idea that people are different from them and would prefer perpetual licenses. It turns my stomach and has made me a bit jaded, but please understand, it has nothing to do with you liking the subscription model. I hope by this point you understand my meaning, so, I won't get into an ethical debate about it. I will just hint that some of the worlds greatest travesties throughout history started because of the intolerance of not accepting that others might want something different and that that's okay. I am asking for tolerance of my plight.

There is a very big difference between me hating SoS (which I don't), and me hating the removal of the owned software choice I want (which I do). Even if we want different things, as long as we're okay with each other wanting different things, then I am sure we can be friends.


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:23:44 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "In the past, we were forced to develop eye-catching glitzy features to try to attract new users. Now, we are allowed (even encouraged) to do things that keep _existing_ customers happy. We know that performance is the #1 thing to keep existing customers happy."

Which brings us back to what so many people have asked for (not of you Todd, but of Adobe broadly):

Why not figure out an exit strategy and offer it to customers who need to protect their work long term?. Then the new application development process can continue as you've described, everyone (or most everyone) gets on board, myself included, and participates in this process instead of boycotting it?

For the life of me, I cant figure out why this is such a stumbling block for Adobe. The only conclusion that one can come to (in the absence of any communication in this regard from Adobe) is that Adobe's management are unyieldingly fixated on life-long subscriptions exclusively and unwilling to concede any ground for the benefit of many of their own customers, and are convinced that we will all eventually just get in line and put up with it.

Why oh why cant we subscribe and be part of this process, but be protected at some point in the future with some sort of exit strategy? How would that injure your new workflow?

I ask sincerely, and with appreciation of the work you and your team do, and the time you take to communicate with us Todd.


Return to posts index

Todd Kopriva
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:37:19 pm

Chris,

That is a question outside of my area.

I do know that there are folks in the relevant areas at Adobe who are working on addressing some of these concerns, but I'm not privy to all of their decisions, and I'm not free to comment on that area.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Return to posts index

Chris Pettit
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 13, 2014 at 8:48:52 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Chris,

That is a question outside of my area.

I do know that there are folks in the relevant areas at Adobe who are working on addressing some of these concerns, but I'm not privy to all of their decisions, and I'm not free to comment on that area."


A sincere and helpful comment Todd, greatly appreciated! I will continue to keep my fingers crossed.


Return to posts index

David Mathis
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 14, 2014 at 1:20:27 am

I do not have anything against a subscription model. I do take issue with the total lack of other options. If someone wants to subscribe that is their choice. I feel no need to subscribe when there is a clear lack of an exit strategy. In the event Adobe offers one I will consider subscribing. Until then all other options are on the table but Adobe is not one of them.


Return to posts index

Mike Parfit
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 14, 2014 at 4:51:31 pm

Thank you, David.

I don't comment much here, but since Todd has been on this thread and I agree with the general positive assessment of him, I just want to reiterate my own complete opposition to the subscription-only model with no exit ramp. I see nothing at all in this present scheme to prevent Adobe from outrageous increases in pricing and declines in R&D if a solidifying monopoly situation allows it.

Signing up requires us to trust Adobe to do something in the future that may not be to the utmost advantage of its shareholders. I can't summon up that trust. In my view and experience, individuals like Todd, within corporations, may have goodwill toward customers, but corporations themselves -- pretty much by law -- do not. To the corporation -- not necessarily to individuals inside -- shareholders are the real customers, and customers are the prey. Good people are just the sweetness on the flytrap.

So in the absence of a system that gives us as customers the power to constrain a runaway subscription price or diminished effort at product improvement by exiting without doing harm to our own work, I can't trust Adobe. I believe people like Todd are trustworthy, and care about their customers in human ways that exist outside the stark values of profit and more profit. But a corporation is not a person.

So I like Adobe's software and its hard-working people but I trust the corporation about as far as an aging movie star trusts his or her next spouse. Lovely, lovely, but I need a prenup.

Mike
http://www.thewhalemovie.com


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 14, 2014 at 5:52:11 pm

[Mike Parfit] "...I like Adobe's software and its hard-working people but I trust the corporation about as far as an aging movie star trusts his or her next spouse. Lovely, lovely, but I need a prenup."

Well said! I hope it's okay if I repeat that phrase elsewhere. It's too good to show up in just one place.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Mike Parfit
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 14, 2014 at 6:10:38 pm

Hmm, let me just run the phrase past my corporate attorney. . . . Yeah, it's fine.

Anyway, once something is in The Cow, it belongs to the world.

Cheers,

Mike


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Thought You'd Be Interested To See This
on Jan 14, 2014 at 11:44:20 pm

Oh, and here's something else Adobe might want to concentrate on doing: they could make the software installation process a little more idiot-proof. Apparently, it's pretty easy for users to screw up the installation procedure for both CS6 and CC on Macs running Mavericks.

Hey, if you can't get the software installed, how do you expect to sell more of it?

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]