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Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription

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Hans Swets
Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 6, 2014 at 7:20:44 pm

I have owned Adobe products, for many years, starting with Premiere 5.1 up to Adobe Production Premium-CS6.
I signed up for the CC subscription in May 2013, at the promotional rate of $19.99 per month.
Why did I sign up?
I use Premiere a lot, started to use Speedgrade in CS6 and wanted to learn Adobe Muse.
Would I have signed up at the regular rate? No.
Did I have reservations about using the CC APPS?
Yes, but I figured that at $19.99 per month I could take a chance.
Coming April I will cancel my subscription.Why am I cancelling?
  • Speedgrade is still cumbersome to work with (no zoom in on the timeline)
  • No backward compatibility in Premiere
  • Dropping of Encore (don't remind me of dropping of Ultra/Audition/On Location..)
  • Paying full and uncertain price after May
  • And last, but not least, the breathtaking arrogance of Adobe management to tell their customers that we don't really need what we want, but that we need what Adobe wants to do, going forward.

Now, I understand that Adobe needs to make decisions about their business model based on what is best for them. But I have to make decisions based on what is best for me. And that is staying with Production Premium-CS6.
Interesting would be to find out how many people have taken the same road, ending with the same conclusion.



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Gary Huff
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 6, 2014 at 7:38:50 pm

[Hans Swets] "Interesting would be to find out how many people have taken the same road, ending with the same conclusion."

I did until the big updates back in October and then I got back on. Price is $49.99 + tax with a year-long contract, or $74.99 + tax on a month-to-month basis. No uncertainty there.


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 6, 2014 at 10:30:05 pm
Last Edited By Morten Ranmar on Jan 6, 2014 at 10:31:28 pm

Back in June 2013 Adobe gave me a years subscription for CC as compensation for a CS6 After Effects subscription plan that they discontinued. Since then I have signed on for one more subscription with 2 years fixed low price. I am sure there will be discounted plans in the future as well.

We use a lot of Adobe products every day, so I do not mind paying. Regarding backwards compatability the only concern I have is Premiere - but heck, I tried migrating through XML from FCP7, so it will work again if I regret.

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 7, 2014 at 2:03:54 am

I did a full year at $29.99 and then canceled and stayed with CS6. For the moment it has everything I need, but I'm not a Premiere user.


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Rick McClelland
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 7, 2014 at 7:15:33 pm

I'm still back on CS6, but when did they drop Audition from the lineup? Or were you referring to Soundbooth?


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 7, 2014 at 7:25:37 pm

Audition is still part of the line-up (Adobe CC).

- No Parking Production -

Adobe CC, 3 x MacPro, 3 x MbP, Ethernet File Server w. Areca ThunderRaid 8.... and FCPX on trial


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 12:23:01 am
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on Jan 8, 2014 at 12:23:50 am

I think he may be referring to how Adobe suddenly dumped Audition in favor of I think Soundbooth?, and then (amazingly) brought it back the next version (probably because they pissed off so many people). As I recall, that was somewhere around CS3 - CS5


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Oliver Peters
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 1:46:21 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jan 8, 2014 at 1:50:40 am

Actually Audition was never dropped from the line-up. Soundbooth was substituted for a while as part of the bundle, but during that time, Audition continued as a standalone product. FWIW - Soundbooth included customized music score creation (similar to SmartSound SonicFire), which wasn't put into Audition. So in truth, it's Soundbooth that was EOL'ed.

Also Encore wasn't dropped. You can still get Encore CS6 if you need this function. There simply is no CC version of Encore. DVD creation and Blu-ray creation is not a growing market.

Not many NLEs are backwards compatible. Certainly not Premiere CS6, FCP X or FCP 7. However, if you want some level of protection, export an XML, AAF and EDL for possible interchange.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 2:38:53 am

[Oliver Peters] "Actually Audition was never dropped from the line-up. Soundbooth was substituted for a while as part of the bundle, but during that time, Audition continued as a standalone product."

You're correct, I neglected to make that clear. Since I've been part of the CS Suite upgrade process for so long I forget that a small percentage of people actually could, and did, purchase Audition separately.

But since the vast majority of people that were effected by it's removal, and then re-appearance were bundled users, thus the angst.


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Gary Huff
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 1:55:05 pm

[Chris Pettit] "I neglected to make that clear. Since I've been part of the CS Suite upgrade process for so long I forget that a small percentage of people actually could, and did, purchase Audition separately."

Actually, I believe Audition was never included as part of the CS package until CS5.5. You always had to purchase it separately from the CS package.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 5:48:26 pm

[Gary Huff] "Actually, I believe Audition was never included as part of the CS package until CS5.5."

IIRC, when Premiere Pro was initially introduced as a PC-only product, Audition was included as part of the bundle. But I could be mistaken. Maybe it was always separate.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 7:21:37 pm

[Oliver Peters] "IIRC, when Premiere Pro was initially introduced as a PC-only product, Audition was included as part of the bundle."

Thanks Oliver, I thought I was going crazy there for a minute.


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Hans Swets
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 8:30:52 pm

Audition was part of CS3 and dropped until CS5.5 I think. (have to look up whether it was back in CS5.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 8:38:42 pm

[Hans Swets] "Audition was part of CS3 and dropped until CS5.5"

Audition was completely re-written and made cross-platform during this time.

There's a lot of detail from the Audition product manager here:
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/838570

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Hans Swets
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 8:46:16 pm

That does not negate my point of Audition disappearance/reappearance.
By the way, nobody ever worked with Ultra/ On Location?



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Walter Soyka
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 9:10:43 pm

[Hans Swets] "That does not negate my point of Audition disappearance/reappearance. "

It's not my intention to debate the point. Audition did disappear and reappear.

I'm just saying that at least that happened for a pretty good reason. Audition, née Cool Edit Pro, was bought from Syntrillium. Audition 3 (CS3) was based on 15-year-old Windows-only code. The fastest way to help Audition fit into the suite as a modern, multi-threaded, cross-platform app was a rewrite.

In the meantime, as a stopgap measure, Soundbooth was built from Premiere's spare parts and dropped into the suite. By CS5.5, the rewrite was complete and Audition was re-launched on the PC and launched for the first time on Mac.

I understand why people are upset that Encore was discontinued, but I do like that Creative Cloud subscribers can download the CS6 version. That's much better than having it just disappear entirely.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Gary Huff
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 7:32:59 pm

[Hans Swets] " Audition was part of CS3 and dropped until CS5.5 I think. (have to look up whether it was back in CS5."

It was not in CS3. It was part of the "Production Studio Premium edition" from CS1-2


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Hans Swets
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 8:23:59 pm

Oliver Peters
"Also Encore wasn't dropped. You can still get Encore CS6 if you need this function. There simply is no CC version of Encore. DVD creation and Blu-ray creation is not a growing market."
Audition was dropped from the CS package. DVD/Blue-Ray creation is a part of my business. And so is direct linking from Premiere CS6 to Encore.



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Oliver Peters
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 9:15:54 pm

Packages no longer exist.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Hans Swets
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 8:19:28 pm

Audition was taken out (for Soundbooth) and later put back in. But the point I was making is that Adobe has a history of "disappearing" applications in the Production Premium package



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Andy Field
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 6:19:30 pm

Regarding CC

Dropping of Encore? It's still there for the download in Creative Cloud - just no more updates..it's the CS6 version which you can also get with the subscription.

If you use this tool professionally and upgraded every year - the subscription is a bargain...even at 50 dollars a month (or hour of paid editing time for many pros) you've paid for the software and the rest is profit. It's also substantially less expensive than the yearly upgrade along with the outright purchase of everything Adobe makes and sells - all available with CC subscription.

for a FCP 7 refugee - it's what FCP 8 should have been - fast virtually no rendering, import and play any codec into the timeline and edit ....exchange and fix files with Audition/Photoshop/Color Correction - seamlessly .

We've saved days worth of trans-coding to Pro-Res just with the edit anything Premiere Pro timelines.

AND you can make it work 99 percent the way FCP 7 work (or AVID if you'd like) with custom built in native keyboard shortcuts.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Hans Swets
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 8:33:21 pm

The functionality of Encore has been degraded when you use Premiere CC.



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Andy Field
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 10:32:53 pm

How so? We've used it and seen no difference.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 8, 2014 at 10:52:16 pm

[Andy Field] "How so? We've used it and seen no difference."

I understand there's no dynamic linking from Premiere CC and CS6 Encore. Do I have that wrong? No sure.


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Andy Field
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 12:16:12 am

typically you need DVD MPEG assets to create a DVD - there's direct link from Premiere to adobe's encoder application - then you just import the assets to Encore.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 12:41:56 am

[Andy Field] "typically you need DVD MPEG assets to create a DVD - there's direct link from Premiere to adobe's encoder application - then you just import the assets to Encore."

Yes, we've been doing it that way for a long time. The question is whether the dynamic linking between Premiere and Encore that allows more sophisticated relationships between the 2 applications still exists. I suspect that since Encore was not included in CC that it does not. That's why some developers are so dissapointed that it was dropped.

(Adobe promotional video regarding dynamic linking between PR and EN) for example:

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-premiere-pro-cs6/using-dynamic-link-to-shar...


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Walter Soyka
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 1:08:37 am

[Chris Pettit] "Yes, we've been doing it that way for a long time. The question is whether the dynamic linking between Premiere and Encore that allows more sophisticated relationships between the 2 applications still exists. I suspect that since Encore was not included in CC that it does not. That's why some developers are so dissapointed that it was dropped."

Premiere Pro CC does not dynamic link with Encore CS6. That means that instead of bringing a sequence directly into Encore from Premiere, an intermediate render is required. It's a step backwards from the seamless CS6 workflow.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 1:14:24 am

[Walter Soyka] "Premiere Pro CC does not dynamic link with Encore CS6. That means that instead of bringing a sequence directly into Encore from Premiere, an intermediate render is required. It's a step backwards from the seamless CS6 workflow."

Thanks Walter. As time goes on I think Encore will matter less and less, but for now that impacts to some workflows.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 1:34:54 am

Hi Hans,

Sorry to hear you're not satisfied. I'm sure others have answered already, but for clarity sake, I will chime in.

1 - Speedgrade latest release is a substantial improvement in the UI and in adopting some more common Adobe shortcuts. That said, color grading is different and like any deep app requires some time to master. A couple of keyboard shortcuts are helpful. A big one for me is the 'd' key which toggles between the media and color tabs. Also zoom in/out is the +/- keyboard on the numeric keypad.
2 - New enhancements make backwards compatibility a challenge and to be honest there are good exchange methods that are used like FCP XML and AAF that help make this less painful. As others mentioned, backwards compatibility isn't a strong suit of other NLEs either.
3 - Encore is not dropped, period. Yes, the workflow has taken a small step back, but any work I did, I wanted to use all of the control of AME anyway and wouldn't let Encore do the transcode for me. Not that it wasn't bad, but just that I wanted the most control when I encoded. PS - Audition isn't dropped either... ;-)
5 - One of the things that I am absolutely, un-apologetically, personally proud of as an Adobe employee is our willingness to listen to our customers. Basically, a lot of my job is seeing high-end clients all of North America. Today I was at a prestigious publishing brand and tomorrow I am going to one of the big networks. When Adobe goes to clients, we collect information and wherever it makes sense apply it to the product. Are we perfect, no. Have we made our product considerably better because of it? Definitely. So, while I completely respect your opinion and your right to a different POV, I feel that Adobe is doing a good job of creating a product that customers around the world want.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Ben Mullins
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 12:19:11 pm

Hi Dennis,

I don't think anyone on this forum will really disagree with you on the quality of Adobe's products. I think Premiere is an excellent piece of software and it is no doubt improving at an impressive rate, however the main issue raised here (lack of a so-called off ramp once subscribed to CC) has been repeatedly ignored by Adobe. It's a shame really because I would love to stay with CC but once my year long contract ends (in April) I too will be discontinuing my subscription. If Adobe can offer a resolution to this I will be happy to return but ever since the subscription-only model was announced customers have complained about it and nothing has changed, so how can you say you are listening?

Thanks,

Ben.



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Morten Ranmar
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 1:19:07 pm

Yes Premiere is impressive - but not so much the performance when you start working with Speedgrade Direct Link. Slows even a fast Mac system down to unusable.

- No Parking Production -

Adobe CC, 3 x MacPro, 3 x MbP, Ethernet File Server w. Areca ThunderRaid 8.... and FCPX on trial


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Ben Mullins
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 1:24:04 pm

I hadn't really noticed that, but I'm on a PC so maybe it's a Mac issue. I have had Media Encoder crash a ridiculous number of times when batch exporting, although my main point in my previous post was that it's not so much the product that people have issues with, rather the delivery method (CC).



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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 4:08:41 pm

Thanks Dennis for your input, as always. I agree with Ben about the tools. Really looking forward to paying for the new tools and being a part of the process moving forward, hopefully for many years.

But not without some way of protecting the work long term. We need an exit strategy, pure and simple. Adobe promised to address policy issues many months ago, but we've heard nothing.

Are you in a position to give us any sense of whether Adobe intends to communicate with long time users in this regard? Even if the answer is that there will not be any tweaks to policy? Something?

Thanks for your time


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 4:22:28 pm

The answer for Premiere was already there in Dennis' post. New features make backward compatibility difficult, and since other NLE'e also only offer XML or AAF, Adobe obviously feels it is on par with the competition.

In order to change this, all NLE makers would have to agree on a new enhanced XML standard, not likely to happen.

- No Parking Production -

Adobe CC, 3 x MacPro, 3 x MbP, Ethernet File Server w. Areca ThunderRaid 8.... and FCPX on trial


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 4:41:08 pm

In my case Premiere is the least of my concerns. We use the entire Suite of products in production premium. Exit strategy issues broadly have nothing to do with XML , other NLE's etc.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 7:48:32 pm

I'd like some sort of loyalty buyout option as well. Maybe something along the lines of for every $2400 worth of continuous CC usage you get a perpetual license # for the most current version of CC. I say $2400 because that's about what the perpetual license for the Master Collection costs.




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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 8:27:11 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I'd like some sort of loyalty buyout option as well. Maybe something along the lines of for every $2400 worth of continuous CC usage you get a perpetual license # for the most current version of CC. I say $2400 because that's about what the perpetual license for the Master Collection costs."

I think that' a great suggestion Andrew. I have no problem with a long term commitment to Adobe and the CC platform. $2400 is a minimum 4 year commitment to subscriptions before you're granted the protection of a PL.

I'd sign up today.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 9, 2014 at 9:17:36 pm

Wouldn't work for us because we never bought the full suite....I think ours was Production Premium for around $1500. Another problem with the CC subscription...I don't really need all the apps....I need Illustrator, Photoshop and After Effects.

Probably not moving to Premier....watching FCPX closely, running FCP 7 and CS6 for now.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 10, 2014 at 12:46:54 am

I never bought the Master Collection either but CC is basically the Master Collection which is why I used it as reference. I'd also like Adobe to offer more bundle options for CC rather than just the current one size fits all approach. Maybe $30 or $35 a month for the equivalent of the old Production Premium for example.




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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 10, 2014 at 1:17:43 am

I hope everyone here is submitting these thoughts to the Adobe Feature Request/Bug Report site - although Adobe people do weigh in here, posting to the official site carries more weight:

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 10, 2014 at 2:33:26 am

[Rich Rubasch] "Wouldn't work for us because we never bought the full suite....I think ours was Production Premium for around $1500. Another problem with the CC subscription...I don't really need all the apps....I need Illustrator, Photoshop and After Effects."

Maybe a reduced access, reduced subscription option for targeted markets? Dennis? Adobe? Anyone over there???? Talk to us... Please.


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David Lawrence
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 10, 2014 at 7:22:04 pm

[Chris Pettit] "I think that' a great suggestion Andrew. I have no problem with a long term commitment to Adobe and the CC platform. $2400 is a minimum 4 year commitment to subscriptions before you're granted the protection of a PL.

I'd sign up today."


Yep, me too.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 11, 2014 at 1:20:59 am

If Adobe is around in four years with this stupid subscription model, David. I'm sticking with CS6 and doing Ripple training on FCP X 10.1. It and Motion 5.1 do everything I need to do, and I know they are committed to the Mac. YMMV, but I'm tired of the run-around from Adobe re off ramps from CC. The off ramps appear to be closed. Who knows what the toll on that road will be in the future.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.4, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, 2 Hexacore MacPros 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 11, 2014 at 1:37:06 am

[Jim Wiseman] "If Adobe is around in four years with this stupid subscription model, David. I'm sticking with CS6 and doing Ripple training on FCP X 10.1."

By that time Apple will only be a few years away from blowing up FCP again. ;)




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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 11, 2014 at 2:35:48 am
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on Jan 11, 2014 at 3:20:00 am

[Jim Wiseman] "If Adobe is around in four years with this stupid subscription model, David. I'm sticking with CS6 and doing Ripple training on FCP X 10.1. It and Motion 5.1 do everything I need to do, and I know they are committed to the Mac. YMMV, but I'm tired of the run-around from Adobe re off ramps from CC. The off ramps appear to be closed. Who knows what the toll on that road will be in the future."

In spite of my optomistic requests (completely ignored as usual):

No question that there's a serious time limit on everyone's willingness to try and engage Adobe enough to convince them to quit ignoring their customers.

I purchased XParticles 2.5 for C4D today ($400.00 of my money that Adobe does NOT have BTW). It provides a huge improvement in high particle count motion graphics animation INSIDE C4D instead of having to go to AE and Trapcode (no knock on Trapcode). And with the Interactive Render Region inside C4D, I'm getting close to real time feedback regarding compositions without the dependence on RAM preview in AE.

One step closer to not giving a crap if Adobe gets over being so arrogant. Step by step. Adobe has a relatively narrow window. After that:

The damage will be done.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 11, 2014 at 2:48:18 am

BTW here is the XParticle link for anyone else looking to be a little less dependent on AE:

http://www.x-particle.com/


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 11, 2014 at 7:25:34 pm

Tx for the link Chris.
Had an eye on it a long time ago - seems it got an very useful tool meanwhile.
But on the other hand, I hear more and more voices, that the relationship between Nemetchek (Cinema) and Adobe becomes bigger & bigger.
So I´m very careful at the moment with my investment in C4D PlugIns.
At the end (who knows) the horror-scenario becomes true & Adobe will buy Cinema.
(and with that a great piece of software with world-best support & help-system will get Mecromediadized and nearby unsupported)
Then all my investments are for nothing (like my AE & PS PlugIns)... Because I have to leave C4D also.
(I will never rent a software, which is offering no buy-out. I will never hire my own archive - It´s princible. May be conservative. But I really don´t want an scenario described in the excellent post of Raymond Inauen)
I know, you like C4D & I hope my fears will not become reality, but I think it´s a possible future scenario.
But who knows... Also possible that Adobe will not make it´s numbers
(like it seems for the moment - their income goes down, even with reaching their target of cloud users. And they also have to invest into their marketing tools)
Hope you will enjoy & your work will be great (as your nice christmas video).


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 3:22:41 am

[Rainer Schubert] "But on the other hand, I hear more and more voices, that the relationship between Nemetchek (Cinema) and Adobe becomes bigger & bigger."

I've heard the same thing, but without substantiation. I'm profoundly hopeful that Maxon (and Maxon's parent company) have no interest in being the next Macromedia. Fingers crossed Rainer....

Were Adobe to swallow Maxon, it would seem to further the case that Adobe is seeking to monopolize ALL aspects of digital content development (quite frankly I think they may be doing exactly that).

[Rainer Schubert] "At the end (who knows) the horror-scenario becomes true & Adobe will buy Cinema.
(and with that a great piece of software with world-best support & help-system will get Mecromediadized and nearby unsupported)"


Unquestionably true. The tech support nightmare that is Adobe is simply the most appalling betrayal of customer loyalty I have ever seen. Spend just 2 minutes on the Adobe CC facebook page and the evidence of that is overwhelming. If Maxon C4D becomes "Adobe C4D", we're in big trouble.

[Rainer Schubert] "Also possible that Adobe will not make it´s numbers"

That's the question isn't it? We shall see.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 10, 2014 at 7:49:07 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "'d like some sort of loyalty buyout option as well. Maybe something along the lines of for every $2400 worth of continuous CC usage you get a perpetual license # for the most current version of CC. I say $2400 because that's about what the perpetual license for the Master Collection costs.
"


that's the one. then everything would flow like butter.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Smith
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 2:44:23 am

As to number 5, I hope Dennis won't take this personally as I'm sure he's an individual who is dedicated to making Premiere a better product, but what I am seeing from Adobe is the exact opposite. In fact, to read what he wrote is almost laughable. What I see is that they are actually being un-apologetic about NOT be willing to listen to their customers.

Since the announcement last May of the forced subscription model, many of us have been asking over and over and in every way we possibly can to please return the option to purchase perpetual licenses for the newest versions of the software, or at the very least a very viable exit strategy/off-ramp. For a short while, through people like Greg Wilson, they said they were working on a tweak to this effect, but now, it's just utter silence. My feeling is that they were just trying to placate us, with no intention of a proper exit strategy (because lets face it, any proper off ramp reduces to a perpetual license after all) and now are trying to ride out the storm, ignoring us as if there is no problem. Trust me, there is a problem.

I think it's an absolute travesty, no way to treat customers of twenty years and I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I hope Adobe's strategy of forced subscription utterly fails with them landing on their flattened faces...

Unfortunately, with their given stubbornness, that could take years. It's too bad too, since Adobe really does make good software, but by then, we'll all have moved on to other products. I'm just glad more alternatives are revealing themselves every day, and from companies that aren't so pig-headed.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 3:39:07 am

[David Smith] " What I see is that they are actually being un-apologetic about NOT be willing to listen to their customers."

Have to completely agree with that David. They appear to be "listening" to large institutional customers, public and private sector, ignoring the large community of smaller artists and developers.

Dennis's references to "prestigious publishing brands" and "big networks" make that abundantly clear. IMO the whole game resides with Enterprise. If Enterprise customers begin to get as fed up with Adobe as we are, game over. If not, we're all looking for new software.

I've heard numerous stories that some of those enterprise clients are not happy, but no personal knowledge. We'll see if this all works or not.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 12:35:01 pm

Geez guys, I'm trying to help out and all I get are daggers.

[Chris Pettit] "They appear to be "listening" to large institutional customers, public and private sector, ignoring the large community of smaller artists and developers."

Chris, my focus on large accounts happens to be my job which is why I mentioned it in the context of listening. My jumping in on the forums is most definitely NOT my job but many of us do it because we care about making people successful and happy.

As for listening only to enterprise customers, how would you explain the online/social feature request that we did around the IBC timeframe? Bottom line, we listen to ALL customers.

Dennis


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Steve Connor
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 12:54:41 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Geez guys, I'm trying to help out and all I get are daggers."

You're a brave man for even posting on here in the first place!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Ben Mullins
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 1:21:02 pm

Hi Dennis,

Nobody has any issues with you personally, what you're seeing is people's frustration with a delivery method which they just dont agree with. And that frustration has mounted due to generally being ignored. You and other representatives from Adobe post on these forums but you never address our main concerns, you always side step them. I imagine that's because you simply aren't allowed to discuss the issues raised here, but you have to understand that when you say you're listening it can come across as quite insulting to some people here who have been asking for some sort of dialogue from Adobe for months now (regarding CC), and yet we have heard nothing. I always had massive respect for Adobe for engaging with people directly on the COW since companies like Apple were/are simply unaccessible, but since CC that respect has unfortunatly all but disappeared. So if Adobe really are listening they need to demonstrate that and start talking to us.

Thanks,

Ben.



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Chris Pettit
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 4:37:39 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Bottom line, we listen to ALL customers."

I don't mean to seem unappreciative of you guys Dennis. I know you're sincere. I appreciate your input. But I see a very real difference between guys like you and Todd who try hard to reach out and communicate with people with good intentions - and your management team. There is a fair amount of distrust and anger at the people who run Adobe at the highest level. If that's unfair, then they might try addressing that portion of your former customers who feel blindsided by the sudden shift to subscription only, instead of ignoring our concerns.

There is lots of speculation that Enterprise is fundamental to making the CC only model work long term, and that may be why Adobe is not addressing concerns of smaller customers like myself. If that's untrue or unfair, a little communication could go a long way to dispel those assumptions. In the absence of real information from Adobe, we are left to "guess" as to what really going on.

Adobe as a company promised communication regarding adjustments to policy. Here are comments from one of your VP's:

"The community is telling us is that what we have in place today – where you can export from your CC apps to CS6 – is not an acceptable solution," admits Sharma. "There are other ideas and expectations that customers have that we are actively discussing internally – but more importantly with our advisers and customers (on the forums)."

http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/creative-software/adobe-vp-on-creat...

I'll ask again: Are we going to hear from Adobe in this regard? Are you in a position to give us a sense of whether there will be any communication forthcoming? I realize you can't just make a pronouncement regarding corporate policy, but Greg Wilson specifically said that there would be some kind of announcement at some point, that was many months ago.

I recognize that anything Adobe might say at this point may not be what people like me want to hear. And that's fine, but given previous statements, aren't we owed some kind of communication?

I really do think you guys have a relatively short amount of time before people like me just start investing in new software and workflows. Or is Adobe aware of that, and have simply written us off as a cost of doing business? Either way, it would be great to simply know whether previous promises to address policy still stand or not.

Thanks for your time Dennis.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 5:38:56 pm

..as we can see with the great "satisfaction" of cloud users in all forums of Adobes own website.
..as we can see by the great telephone support (which is also a sign if a company is listening or - here - not)
..as we can see by the silence to the people who don´t want their archives be only available by renting Adobes SW
..


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Al Bergstein
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Jan 12, 2014 at 6:59:18 pm
Last Edited By Al Bergstein on Jan 12, 2014 at 7:02:11 pm

I'm going to take a bit of a different POV here. My business is a one man shop, and I came from Apple's FCP suite along with some time on Vegas on Windows. I've been running Pr since 5.5 and am keeping one copy of 6.0 on a Macbook Pro but continuing with CC. It seems odd to hear some of the complaints, as I have never over the years heard an Apple employee show up on any forum, they seem to be sworn to silence so that only the PR dept can talk for Apple, and I appreciate that I see lots of Adobe employees here and on other forums. So as to "listening" to the customer, I think Adobe is way ahead of the competition.

The subscription model has been a plus for me, I get to use far more of Adobe's tools for actually less money than I could/would afford before. (Just this week I've been working with Photoshop, because I really didn't have a need for it and didn't want to pay for it). BUT, I have to say, that this model strikes the serious hobbyist, small business user far more than the 'bigger shops' (who likely are using AVID from what I've seen in my various trips to workshops in LA).

With subscription I don't have to put the money out all at once. For a small shop that can be significant. I don't always get paid on subscription by clients (G), so to not have to *save up* to buy the software is a good thing. I have recently leased a C100 from Canon, and that was also a positive thing from a cash flow perspective. The subscription model works for me for magazines, so I don't see why it *can't* work for software. Does it need tweaking by Adobe? Yes.

Adobe likely needs to have some version that is not subscription. The anger here on this thread is mainly due to a marketing strategy, not a product strategy. That can be changed overnight, as we saw when they went to the subscription model. The old educational model is an example. You buy a copy that has no ability to be upgraded.

I have now been on CC subscription since July. Adobe has not given me one reason to regret that yet, but that's only me. Substantial upgrades have happened as expected. Their decision to not upgrade Encore is something I'm not happy about but not related to subscription issues, I'd assume. Neither is their decision to drop On Location, which I would guess got significant negative reviews, or lack of interest from the audience it was intended for. I tried it, but was unimpressed and seemed to add to my workflow for no good reason. Bug fixes for Adobe products have come much quicker than I seem to remember them coming. That's good.

There are lots of issues to fix, one example is that media encoder crashes on both Windows & Mac are too frequent for a professional product.

The thing I think I worry about the most is legacy project archiving. My mother in law is a writer who wrote her books on Pagemaker only 15 years ago. Her projects are now frozen in time, with no way to export them to newer versions. To redo the projects we'd need to rewrite them from the ground up. However, this is not too different than what I've experienced trying to reopen FCP 7 projects once the projects were moved from their original drive structures. Neither Adobe nor Apple sees any reason to hire a small team in India to cut the code to migrate a project, which would garner them good graces from their customers. My experiences trying to migrate even simple 2 camera doc edits to Pr shows that the migration path advertised by Adobe from FCP is a waste of time for me. Hey Adobe, (and Apple)..how about just giving the old Pagemaker and FCP code to the Open Source community? It's not 64 bit, and likely has nothing in common with newer versions.

Al


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Keiran Earl
Re: Thoughts on cancelling the CC subscription
on Apr 30, 2014 at 5:16:46 pm

Sorry this is a bit of an older post, but Google...

I just wanted to ask about this because I'm on a 'smaller than small business' budget as well and over the past 15 years, I have basically had to save up for 2-3 years for all of my major photo/video purchases (not so much in the past 2 years, but before that, very much so).

I got lucky to get into the upgrade path via an edu version of CS5.5 -> upgrade to non-edu Production Premium CS6 (about $850US total, plus it took me 8 years to save up enough to do the Uni course) that has been my mainstay for a bit more than 2 years.

If there was no CC, there would likely be another upgrade available for $375US (what I paid the last time) that hopefully would last me another 1-1.5 years.

Compare that to what I would have paid for CC:

12 months with 40% off: $360
12 months with 0% off: $600

So not too far different. After 2 years, $850 for CS, $960 for CC.

However, as someone who has been using Photoshop (not always legitimately) for about 8 years and especially as someone who still has about 30+ years of work left in his life, I don't see my budget on 2-3 years.


After 5 years (factoring 2 more upgrades for $375 with 1 yr left) = $1600 for CS Production Premium Suite, $2760 for CC.

After 10 years (add in 3 more upgrades at $375) = $2725 for CS and $5760 for CC.

The only other possibility is that maybe you are only using a single program and only using it for a part of the year. While I do occasionally have fallow periods where I need to work on web or something and not play videos, there isn't really a long enough time consistently where I could just start and stop CC sub like playing with a light switch.

Moreover, I don't understand how you could get by using Prem without Photoshop... and AI. I can see that as a private user, but if you're doing work in video, I don't know how you would manage to deal with vector and logos without at least one of those programs.

So I guess my question is: over what period of time does CC actually work out cheaper for you?


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