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Paddy Uglow
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 2:14:56 pm

All very true, but we're fighting against the software and hardware companies who need to keep selling new things, and so HAVE to bring out new formats and higher hardware requirements in order to stay in business. Software companies have long had the problem that you can only sell a perfect application to someone once. So renting the software to you is a sensible solution. And "the cloud" means we can rent our media too and give companies sellable stats on what we're accessing.
But the "upgrades" are so often effectively downgrades; with favourite features missing or a new interface to learn; I can imagine new young programmers saying "oh, no one uses shortcut kets any more" as they remove much-loved features.

We saw multimedia being re-sold to us on new physical media (that required new playback devices of course) through the 80s and 90s. Now we've been tempted into downloadable media, it's all about the hardware: flatscreen, then 3d flatscreen, now 4k, with 8k not far off...

Like Thü Hürlimann ,I'm going to keep my 10.68 system running CS3 as long as I can (and I've got an old iBook to run some excellent older Apple software that won't install on 10.68)

But soon customers will be demanding 4K videos, even for online (and my system struggles a bit even with 1080) - I'll be amazed if there's not an 8k smartphone screen available within a few years!

End of rant! ; -)


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Paddy Uglow
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 2:20:11 pm

... as someone said once (in an argument about which Photoshop technique was "right", actually!) it's all just different coloured pixels at the end of the process, whichever software or hardware or technique made the pixels that colour doesn't matter.

Paddy, CreativeMedia.org.uk


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 3:35:57 pm

If the alternative to Creative Cloud is a bankrupt Adobe, are you okay with that?


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 4:14:18 pm

Absolutely : )

(Hey - Are not all the companies & governments, who want to have our best, telling: There´s no other way????
Ever had a look at Adobes business plans and their curves at WallStreet Diagrams? We are not talking about poor little Adobe here!!!
Nothing against a cloud as an option & and a (may be) higher priced perpetual.
This so called "cloud" is only perfect to MAXIMIZE Adobes profit, not to MAXIMIZE products and service)


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 5:31:28 pm

I think you just answered your own question - yes - the purpose of Adobe's Cloud structure is to maximize Adobe's profit. Adobe is just another - albeit necessary - business, whose user base happens to be very large and dependent on many (not all) of their products, with few alternatives. Adobe isn't Mother Theresa, or Feed the Artists - it's a business, plain and simple.

If the only way they stay afloat is by doing what they're doing, then that's just the way it is. I happen to be in a good position, owning outright (yeah, I know) the CS4 Production Bundle, and the CS6 Master Collection. I'm waiting to see what happens...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:05:01 pm

I know, that Mother Theresa & Adobe are different things.
But I can´t hear the arguments in "cloud" debate, that want to make me believe, it´s an user advantage.
I don´t have anything against a company, making money (as I also own a company : )
But I´m simply missing the win win situation.
I´m against earning money by simply (and only) changing the business model.
CS 4 - 6 can do 98% of the jobs nearby the same and as fast as CC.
So for the next years there is no problem.
Also competition is growing rapidly.
I also understand, that a continuous income is a good thing for Adobe.
But I don´understand, why they concerned nearby 85% of their users with an arrogant and forcing behavior.
All the sugar glossy BS marketing isn´t making it better.
And I think you are right, with waiting what happens.
Can´t see, there is a point behind the story of this so called "cloud".


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:32:52 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:33:10 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "I´m against earning money by simply (and only) changing the business model. "

Except that Adobe has been giving us some rather nice updates. And eventually there should be a Dropbox-like service running, you also get two concurrent licenses with both platforms. So it's not simply "changing the business model".


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:48:54 pm

I had been getting great updates from adobe up to cs6 and would have if adobe hadn't got greedy.

Ricardo Marty


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:55:24 pm

That "Dropbox-like" service I don´t need.
I own a dropbox account already & I have my own server-solution.
(and it wasn´t a big problem - and legal! - to instal CS on two machines also, not on two different systems - thats right)


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 20, 2013 at 11:33:28 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "(and it wasn´t a big problem - and legal! - to instal CS on two machines also, not on two different systems - thats right)"

Windows and a Mac?


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 23, 2013 at 3:28:14 am

Not on two different systems (Win/MAC) - as I wrote - true.
We use both platforms every day.
But MAC is prefered (WIN is more for some special Apps, which are not available on MAC & to keep compatibility with some clients).
We simply don´t need it running on two systems.
(And I think, the most of us have their preferred platform... or?)
But you are right - it´s an advantage.


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:24:30 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "This so called "cloud" is only perfect to MAXIMIZE Adobes profit, not to MAXIMIZE products and service)"

How much profit should Adobe be allowed to make?


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:43:36 pm

Maximized profit has to be in a relation to the maximized product.
I will pay more (or much more) if my advantage is given.
There is no limit.
It has to be a win win situation.
(Can´t tell my clients, they will only get a package of artwork - if they need it or not - not a single one. That´s ignoring their needs)
The cloud solution is only good for Adobe, as it makes my files dependent to my further payments.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:03:56 pm
Last Edited By Gustavo Bermudas on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:04:53 pm

If the alternative to Creative Cloud is a bankrupt Adobe, are you okay with that?

At the end of the day you gotta do what's right for you, not for Adobe, just like Adobe does, they do what's right for them, not us


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:24:55 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] "At the end of the day you gotta do what's right for you, not for Adobe, just like Adobe does, they do what's right for them, not us"

So does every other company...even Apple.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:50:23 pm

[Gary Huff] "If the alternative to Creative Cloud is a bankrupt Adobe, are you okay with that?"

If Adobe goes bankrupt and you can no longer renew your license are you OK with that?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 8:10:42 pm

[Herb Sevush] "
If Adobe goes bankrupt and you can no longer renew your license are you OK with that?"


I believe past evidence has shown that Adobe will do the right thing.

If they don't, third parties will.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 8:42:48 pm

[Gary Huff] "I believe past evidence has shown that Adobe will do the right thing. If they don't, third parties will."

So now that we don't have to worry about Adobe going bankrupt, with the cloud or without it, we can move on to other topics.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 9:18:07 pm

[Herb Sevush] "
So now that we don't have to worry about Adobe going bankrupt, with the cloud or without it, we can move on to other topics."


The fact remains that Adobe apparently felt that moving to a subscription-based method was the only way to ensure a steady-stream of income.

Have you crunched their numbers enough to call it as "unnecessary"? Would you be okay with, perhaps, a 1/3 reduction of their programming workforce in order to maintain a perpetual license model? How much can Adobe shrink that you'll be satisfied with?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 9:31:51 pm

[Gary Huff] "The fact remains that Adobe apparently felt that moving to a subscription-based method was the only way to ensure a steady-stream of income. Have you crunched their numbers enough to call it as "unnecessary"? Would you be okay with, perhaps, a 1/3 reduction of their programming workforce in order to maintain a perpetual license model? How much can Adobe shrink that you'll be satisfied with?"

Neither you nor I nor anyone else here knows what Adobe's internal numbers are. My point is that I don't care. Adobe does what they do for reasons we shall never know. I believe that we should do what is in our best interest and not worry about what is, or is not, in Adobe's interest. As you pointed out, if Adobe fails, there will be other parties to pick up the slack. This is true with or without the cloud. As for the size of their workforce, it can go up or down whether in a cloud model or perpetual model, and we have no control over that either.

I don't know of anyone who begrudges Adobe going to a subscription model, it's the elimination of any other options that is the cause of contention.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 19, 2013 at 10:01:24 am

[Herb Sevush] "I don't know of anyone who begrudges Adobe going to a subscription model, it's the elimination of any other options that is the cause of contention."

This. ^

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 19, 2013 at 2:44:48 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I believe that we should do what is in our best interest and not worry about what is, or is not, in Adobe's interest."

Let me ask this hypothetical...let's say a year or two in the future, Adobe hasn't experienced enough blowback to make them consider changing the Creative Cloud business model. Let's also say that you start having issues where you need to explain to clients that you cannot participate in their collaborative workflows (for instance, the material they give you to work with is CC generated and not compatible with your third-party software you have migrated to or the older versions of Creative Suite that you are still on) because of your opposition to the model.

Is having that same conversation over-and-over again something that you would be comfortable doing, or would that be impetus enough for you to subscribe in that scenario?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 19, 2013 at 2:57:09 pm

[Gary Huff] "Let's also say that you start having issues where you need to explain to clients that you cannot participate in their collaborative workflows (for instance, the material they give you to work with is CC generated and not compatible with your third-party software you have migrated to or the older versions of Creative Suite that you are still on) because of your opposition to the model.

Is having that same conversation over-and-over again something that you would be comfortable doing, or would that be impetus enough for you to subscribe in that scenario?"


As per hypotheticals, if it is in my financial interest to use CC I will. It's not a religion with me. Right now the lack of a decent multicam feature in PPro is a bigger holdback for me than anything else. But I think the subscription only idea stinks, and all things being equal I would avoid it if I could. But all things are never equal, are they.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paddy Uglow
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 19, 2013 at 3:41:09 pm

So many upgrades are largely to keep compatibility with other people's files. I wonder how many MS Office upgrades were a result of the docx format coming out?
I've been an upgrade-cynic for a long time; I'd say in many (most?) cases the upgrades reduce productivity UNLESS users learn how to use the new improvements AND there actually ARE improvements rather than software bloat that requires new hardware, and new interfaces (like all our FCP-using friends were subjected to).
I propose a revolution - hang on to your old hardware and software and concentrate on creating!
I'm not a total luddite - HD is a great improvement over interlaced SD, but I've never needed to "upgrade" my hammer, for example. It's forwards and backwards compatible with every kind of nail I've come across! ;-)


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 19, 2013 at 4:38:06 pm

[Paddy Uglow] "I wonder how many MS Office upgrades were a result of the docx format coming out?"

I completely agree with you there. I could easily handle 99% of my needs with Office XP...but I routinely get .DOCX files now, so I need to be able to open them with 100% compatibility.

Thankfully, there's no reason to upgrade to the currently newest version.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:12:00 pm
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:14:06 pm

Long before adobe goes broke they will either start selling perpetual lic. to generate cash or sell the content creation products and keep their marketing and analytics business. Perhaps the would offer both subscriptions and perpetuals.

Ricardo Marty


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:18:30 pm

Hope so.
But I´m also sometimes dreaming of the horror-scenario, that SW and Operating Systems will be only available on rent, some not so nice day in future...


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:25:30 pm

This is why we must combat adobe cc.

I am sure that a scenario where only renters could access computers and the internet is a priority for many companies but there will all ways be rebels.

I had my edit* digisuite running until a year or so ago gave it away.

So I guess i could have my system 15 or more years after a scenario like you mention comes into existence if it does.

There are still people making great content on 15 year old media composers and making a living.

Ricardo Marty


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:38:06 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "This is why we must combat adobe cc"

I know.


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:25:39 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "Perhaps the would offer both subscriptions and perpetuals."

How would you offer the kind of updates we've gotten in the past few months with a perpetual license option? Or do you just slow down the updates again?


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:27:53 pm

[Gary Huff] "How would you offer the kind of updates we've gotten in the past few months with a perpetual license option? Or do you just slow down the updates again?"

No problem those on the subscription get it as they are now and those on perpetuals will have to buy it either yearly or when they come out.

Ricardo Marty


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:49:38 pm

Only the Video users got strange updates.
InDesign, Illustrator, PS, Flash, Dreamweaver?
Nothing overwhelming.

EonSoftware (with it´s landscape-Editor VueXStream) offers me a maintenance-plan.
I get several upgrades (With new features brought in) during a Relase-Period.
They call them Beta-Versions of the next release (and to be true: Adobes updates of the last weeks are nothing else).
I can install them or not.
But they are able to bring in new features this way.
So, there are ways to do this in a legal way.
It´s more a question of willing.

And: I don´t have any problem, with waiting on upgrades, till the next Application Release.
(elsewise I would have subscribed as long as this so called "cloud" was an option)


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 6:52:40 pm

adobe offers updates when its close to a quarter end. its like a carrot on a stick.

Ricardo Marty


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 8:29:32 pm

Also, why there has to be yearly updates, could I have the option of buy perpetual and have the option to buy update quarterly if I'd like to keep up with Cloud versions?


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Tim Vaughan
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 9:08:50 pm

Maxon and others do a "service agreement", where you basically purchase the agreement each year for a said amount, and you have access to all updates and new versions. And, if you don't/can't pay, you still keep the version you're on. Simple. Easy. Brilliant. Of course, to get current again if you miss a year, it'll cost a few dollars more, but you have the option to stay or buy. It's too simple, I think...

Tim
Apple XRAID, XServe, 2008 2x3 GHz Quad-Core MacPro, Macbook Pro, XSAN, Dell Studio xps PC's
FCP Studio (7), AVID Media Composer, Adobe Production Premium, Maxon Cinema 4d, AJA Kona 3, Flanders Scientific Monitors, Panasonic HPX250's, Kessler Crane, Glidecam.....
Beer fridge fully loaded.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 18, 2013 at 9:12:16 pm

Simple and fair.


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Wendell Davis
Re: Beware of...
on Dec 23, 2013 at 9:27:09 pm

As someone who is on the cusp of nearly 50 years of multimedia production (started at age 16 professionally), Adobe has lost me. I continue and will continue producing, filming, editing etc. for as long as I'm able - hopefully a long time yet to go - especially for non-profits.

But why would I want to pay monthly for something I use a few times per year and have no backwards compatibility? Avid got greedy too. Almost put them out of business. Apple changed they way FCP did everything including nomenclature that has been utilized for "ever". Look at their losses.

It is all about greed. Fair/appropriate business profits are fine, but greed..... That is the way the world has gone and look what it is doing to it.

I have CS6 and will just stay with it. So instead of getting a few thousand every few years, (I own CS2, CS3, CS4, CS5, CS5.5 and CS6) they will get nothing. I would have upgraded as usual even as I retire, but now bye, bye Adobe.

Very disappointed in Adobe.
Wendell



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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Jan 6, 2014 at 4:14:02 pm

[Wendell Davis] "Fair/appropriate business profits are fine, but greed..... That is the way the world has gone and look what it is doing to it."

Okay, so help me out here...perpetual licenses aren't greedy? Or if the Creative Cloud model was, say, $9.99 per month for the whole thing, is that still greedy, or not?

What is the dividing line between "greedy" and "fair/appropriate"?


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walter biscardi
Re: Beware of...
on Jan 2, 2014 at 12:41:45 am

He's absolutely right on the Print side of things. It did reach its apex in 2005 so no reason to upgrade beyond that for print work.

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Ricardo Marty
Re: Beware of...
on Jan 6, 2014 at 3:18:09 am

[walter biscardi] "He's absolutely right on the Print side of things. It did reach its apex in 2005 so no reason to upgrade beyond that for print work"

I am sure premiere cc and the video related apps will reach that point sooner than later, specially when its development gets more specialized.

Ricardo Marty


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Gary Huff
Re: Beware of...
on Jan 8, 2014 at 1:56:40 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "I am sure premiere cc and the video related apps will reach that point sooner than later, specially when its development gets more specialized."

Considering we're currently in the midst of birthing pangs of 4k acquisition, delivery, and H.265 as well as other competing standards, I think it's a safe bet that there's more work to be done for a while.

Not to mention that we still don' have a way to pull a key from normal footage. I think that will be the biggest evolution in video post once you can click on a subject and the software is smart enough to key it out of a normal background.


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