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The Adobe of Long Ago

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Ridley Walker
The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 24, 2013 at 12:41:01 am



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Todd Kopriva
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 24, 2013 at 1:36:51 am

What point are you trying to make with that?

If you like the message of "smash status quo" and the rejection of "business as usual", I'd think that you'd be praising us for our recent change in business model, which is in line with that sentiment.

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Ridley Walker
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 24, 2013 at 2:32:11 am

Todd, I have the utmost respect for you and your tireless and valuable contributions to this and other forums. You represent the very best of Adobe.

I suppose that what comprises the status quo is in the eyes of the beholder.

I came across that advert and thought it amusing given what Adobe has done of late, which in my opinion is: they have become the status quo. I thought I would share it with others.

Nevertheless, chacun a son gout. To each his own.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 24, 2013 at 4:46:30 am
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on Nov 24, 2013 at 4:56:50 am

It was an omen adobe would consumes all in cinder.

ricardo marty


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Ridley Walker
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 24, 2013 at 6:34:50 pm
Last Edited By Ridley Walker on Nov 24, 2013 at 6:35:20 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "It was an omen adobe would consumes all in cinder."

I interpret the image otherwise. I don't identify with the dark suited gentlemen wearing incendiary neck wear.

I see them as representatives of the status quo and the burning cravats indicating that they are being challenged.


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David Mathis
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 24, 2013 at 7:49:57 pm
Last Edited By David Mathis on Nov 24, 2013 at 7:52:38 pm

[Ridley Walker] "I see them as representatives of the status quo and the burning cravats indicating that they are being challenged."

I could see that image being used in a psychiatric evaluation. :-)


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Billy Payn
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 24, 2013 at 9:34:47 pm

I like a literal interpretation, the suits have set fire to their ties whilst wearing them, and it's taking them to a barren place.



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Ridley Walker
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 12:27:17 am
Last Edited By Ridley Walker on Nov 25, 2013 at 12:39:59 am

[David Mathis] "I could see that image being used in a psychiatric evaluation. :-)"

As in a rorschach test?

What do you see? :-)

Their neckties symbolic of their conformity and enslavement....


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 1:39:06 am

It could also be a phallic symbol. ouch

ricardo


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Chris Pettit
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 3:30:46 am

[Ridley Walker] "they have become the status quo"

By definition, Adobe has become exactly that. Large corporation, buying out smaller companies over time (anyone remember Macromedia?), dominating the market, telling their OWN customers how THEY should do business regardless of whether it works for those particular customers. And ignoring how Adobe's new business model selectively impacts different small to medium business models in a negative manner. And why?For the moment they have little to no competition.

Subscribe to the software indefinitely or go somewhere else. Take it or leave it. That's not my idea of "smashing the status quo"

Todd: I appreciate all that you do, and your contributions to this forum specifically, but I have to say I have little praise for what Adobe is doing. While there are clearly benefits for various market segments, long term Adobe has a BIG problem with people like me. And continuing to ignore our concerns will certainly not bring praise.


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Steve Brame
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 1:56:12 pm

Actually, the 'status quo' was the perpetual license model.

Asus P6X58D Premium * Core i7 950 * 24GB RAM * nVidia Quadro 4000 * Windows 7 Premium 64bit * System Drive - WD Caviar Black 500GB * 2nd Drive(Pagefile, Previews) - WD Velociraptor 10K drive 600GB * Media Drive - 2TB RAID0 (4 - WD Caviar Black 500GB drive) * Matrox MX02 Mini * Adobe CC
-------------------------------------------
"98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing 'F1'."
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions


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Chris Pettit
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 2:04:48 pm

[Steve Brame] "Actually, the 'status quo' was the perpetual license model."

From your perspective and that of others. But lifelong subscriptions to access the software and maintain access to your work is not my idea of forward progress.

Creative Cloud is a wonderful innovation and a great option for many people.

Mandatory Creative Cloud is the opposite because it forces people who have different business workflows and processes into a one size fits all scheme regardless of how you work or conduct your business.


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Steve Brame
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 2:30:42 pm

The assignation of the term 'status quo' isn't related to anyone's interpretation of what is "forward progress". It merely means "the existing state of affairs". I'm tempted to introduce the 'buggy whip' paradigm to the conversation.

Asus P6X58D Premium * Core i7 950 * 24GB RAM * nVidia Quadro 4000 * Windows 7 Premium 64bit * System Drive - WD Caviar Black 500GB * 2nd Drive(Pagefile, Previews) - WD Velociraptor 10K drive 600GB * Media Drive - 2TB RAID0 (4 - WD Caviar Black 500GB drive) * Matrox MX02 Mini * Adobe CC
-------------------------------------------
"98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing 'F1'."
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions


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Chris Pettit
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 2:44:10 pm

[Steve Brame] "I'm tempted to introduce the 'buggy whip' paradigm to the conversation."

It's a little early to draw comparisons between subscription only software and model T fords...


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Steve Brame
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 2:46:22 pm

[Chris Pettit] "It's a little early to draw comparisons between subscription only software and model T fords..."

Sigh...I wasn't. Oh well.

Asus P6X58D Premium * Core i7 950 * 24GB RAM * nVidia Quadro 4000 * Windows 7 Premium 64bit * System Drive - WD Caviar Black 500GB * 2nd Drive(Pagefile, Previews) - WD Velociraptor 10K drive 600GB * Media Drive - 2TB RAID0 (4 - WD Caviar Black 500GB drive) * Matrox MX02 Mini * Adobe CC
-------------------------------------------
"98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing 'F1'."
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions


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Chris Pettit
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 3:25:21 pm

Sorry if I misunderstood. From online dictionary:

"since buggies have been replaced by cars the buggy whip has become a symbol for anything that is hopelessly outmoded"


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Richard Herd
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 4:59:36 pm

I once read a case study about the clipper ship and the steam ship. When the steam engine was invented, the clipper ship makers didn't just go away, they continued to innovate until the clipper ship was as great as it could get. When it became inevitable that the steam engine would displace the best-ever clipper ships, the clipper ship folks turned to the courts in a last ditch effort to preserve their industry.

Although I don't particularly care for the rental model, it most definitely works very well, a steam engine in a sea of clipper ships. I have a former student who is becoming a master in photo shop, painting with a wacom tablet and posting his renderings on Facebook. He could never do that without the monthly fee and well-developed software -- subsidized by the old folks who paid perpetual licenses for decades.

In more weirdness, the one-man-band can afford the rental fees, but a large shop (11 chairs for examples) will struggle to pay the fees -- or will also have to innovate out of the quagmire -- including restructuring accounting and capital requests.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 10:06:19 pm

[Richard Herd] "In more weirdness, the one-man-band can afford the rental fees, but a large shop (11 chairs for examples) will struggle to pay the fees -- or will also have to innovate out of the quagmire -- including restructuring accounting and capital requests.
"


that maybe doesn't get said often enough - I'm avoiding it because of the consequences that keep building and building up down the line if the deal remains no exit as it is - and I've got CS6 in my back pocket. Worst comes to worst, if there's no shift, I'll run a single PR rental from the middle of next year. It should be clear if PR has gotten past the rental mess by then.

but it is way more straightforward for me than for larger groups. I really do know two places, that employ hundreds, where each are mired in legal negotiations with adobe. One was publicly for it, but the implementation has been delayed for months on end because of contract difficulties.

that said, I'm not renting a new steamship, I'm being forced to rent the exact same clipper I bought. Just that maybe the clipper hull and anchor get refashioned and modified every few months, if I'm willing to risk the new one's working on the open sea.
What's explicit in the deal is an acknowledgement that adobe have now built the best clippers they can - they need to start renting them out. In some cases the clippers are twenty years old and after 15 revisions they've run out of things to stick on them.
the real question is whether the market itself is going to introduce steamships. you could argue the web has steamships everywhere and adobe's clippers are being decimated.

tortured metaphor, meet your master.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Richard Herd
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:30:32 pm

The Clipper Ship and the Steam Engine -- Before the Golden Gate Bridge was built, folks had to pay a pilot to get them across the treacherous waters. The customers are the ones who need to get from Marin and Oakland to San Francisco. Low price, speed, and safety -- the metaphor continues.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 26, 2013 at 1:35:53 am

no. the price is not the issue - constructed guards to tool access is the issue.

adobe are making your tools a town you have to pay passage into, every month of every year you last. It's scummy and retrograde.

everything else is a glimmer show.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Richard Herd
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 29, 2013 at 4:56:33 pm

If the pilot of the boat were forced to rent his boat, then that's the metaphor, here.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 26, 2013 at 2:43:42 am

Ahh but if you own a little boat you may not need to have to pay the captain the ride is cheaper and the boat is yours.

Ricardo


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 27, 2013 at 4:47:35 pm

[Richard Herd] "In more weirdness, the one-man-band can afford the rental fees, but a large shop (11 chairs for examples) will struggle to pay the fees -- or will also have to innovate out of the quagmire -- including restructuring accounting and capital requests."

Why do you think a one-man-band can afford less than one hour's worth of billing per worker per month, but a large shop cannot?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Billy Payn
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 27, 2013 at 5:38:40 pm

Lets define what 'afford' might mean. If the government told you to pay another 50k in tax per year, could you afford it? Well, on paper yes maybe you could. It might not leave you with much money at all to buy food or clothes, holidays, run a car etc. You could do this anyway, but if they gave you a choice - would you choose to? If not, why not? The government would use some of the money to do good things, and pay themselves a bit more too!
I could afford to pay Adobe £600 per year, if I chose to, (then shortly afterward, another £600 per year on all the plugins, operating platform, codecs, drivers etc etc etc,) the thing is - I choose not to go down this route, lots of the work I do is non profit, though some of it is for profit, and I don't want to have to say to people sorry I can't afford to do work for you now, I have software to pay for.
To all those out there who say that anyone 'can afford' this monthly payment, may be you can, and choose to do so. Great, I'm very happy for you and I'm happy too that you're satisfied with the rental agreement. This isn't about who can afford what, it's about choice, and as it is, if adobe choose not to allow me to have this software on terms that suit me, I choose not to have it, and without people like me buying into this - you'll be paying more for it sooner.



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Walter Soyka
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 27, 2013 at 7:27:37 pm

[Billy Payn] "To all those out there who say that anyone 'can afford' this monthly payment, may be you can, and choose to do so. Great, I'm very happy for you and I'm happy too that you're satisfied with the rental agreement. This isn't about who can afford what, it's about choice, and as it is, if adobe choose not to allow me to have this software on terms that suit me, I choose not to have it, and without people like me buying into this - you'll be paying more for it sooner."

Billy, I do come at this from the admittedly myopic perspective of a for-profit business owner. I understand that different people with different circumstances or backgrounds may view this differently. I am especially sympathetic to the challenges this poses for non-profits and educational institutions who already had perpetual licenses.

But even on the subject of affordability, I think there's room for reasonable disagreement. While some might reasonably not want to commit to a regular $50 monthly payment, others might reasonably prefer no longer having to pay $1900 upfront for Production Premium or $3500 upfront for the Master Collection.

The pricing is not really all that different than just keeping up with the upgrades -- and if you weren't upgrading every cycle, then you were enjoying lower upgrade prices because of people like me buying each upgrade as they were released.

I wish it were easy to just make everybody happy -- CC is great software and I know that a lot of the people here who are opposed to subscription would really enjoy using it -- but I can see how this would get complicated quickly.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 27, 2013 at 9:51:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Why do you think a one-man-band can afford less than one hour's worth of billing per worker per month, but a large shop cannot?"

trust me when I say its not a straightforward proposition. Some of the parties this side of the pond publicly for it, are in a much more complicated situation than they thought they would be in. Partly because they assumed they would receive heavily preferential terms because of scale. those apparently aren't being offered.

long term open ended subscription in a situation where the core tools are at an effective monopoly level - AE, PS, ID etc - shifting to a subscription lock-in at scale would give anyone rational pause. the scale of brand asset lock-in etc is enormous. the equation of who you are dealing with and the mid-term view becomes a much more tricky proposition.

you go to subscriptions to get subscriptions, once you have a viable subscription model, you start to raise the subscription price. that's a mortal lock. Its a question of how much the market will bear. If the market has few valid alternatives, a shareholder dictated public company will determine that they can bear a great deal.

over the mid-term, you can conduct a number of interesting gameplays for the kind of company adobe becomes with that subscriber base - particularly if the failure on the web continues. There are scenarios where its pretty bleak, and kinds of gouging go on, that telcos and telephony, in a vaguely live market, would not countenance.

Ultimately its a question of whether this is a final retreat to profit from a semi-secured base in the old near monopoly software.

there's a lot of rational pausing going on out there walter. The broad question, for everyone with a credit card, relates to the character and ambition of adobe itself.

I'd argue that the creative cloud is fairly desperate flim flam, and that the software is hitting a final stasis point where its function is to leverage mid-term maximal subscription cash out of a quite radically locked base.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 28, 2013 at 1:04:55 am

Aindreas, your points are not lost on me -- but I just don't see how Adobe could profitably raise the cost of Creative Cloud to the point where their customers cannot profitably use it.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jim Wiseman
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 28, 2013 at 3:35:28 am

It's only 20% the cost for me. No working out, no go. Simple as that.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Richard Herd
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 29, 2013 at 5:16:49 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "'d argue that the creative cloud is fairly desperate flim flam, and that the software is hitting a final stasis point where its function is to leverage mid-term maximal subscription cash out of a quite radically locked base."

Exactly. It's very profitable for NASDAQ: ADBE. Their core business is changing right before our eyes, following the path of Panavision, where service is a drain on the business model, so the product must be perfect at launch. Not there yet, but moving toward "final stasis point."


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Richard Herd
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 29, 2013 at 5:11:59 pm

By large I mean a specific number: 11. And I'm talking about a corporation here and the various politics, internal machinations, and culture.

11 * 50 * 12 operating expense makes the accounting department and capital committee gag. You should see their faces when I explain "but they don't sell licenses anymore."

Their eyes roll and they think I'm stupid. "No one rents software," they say. There's two construals to that sentence -- no owner rents it out, no customer receives it -- as rental.

The $50/mo seems ok. But $6,600/year seems like too much.

Time to upsell with Adobe Anywhere. Now that appears to be a capital expense and licensing and support all rolled into one big package. I'm hoping to move in that direction. But the fees I was ballparked seemed wrong: $10k/1TB. whew. But at that price point it's an "initiative" a "key investment" and not just a software purchase/rental type thing.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 29, 2013 at 10:15:18 pm

that's interesting.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Culbertson
Re: The Adobe of Long Ago
on Nov 28, 2013 at 12:13:12 am

[Chris Pettit] "Mandatory Creative Cloud is the opposite because it forces people who have different business workflows and processes into a one size fits all scheme regardless of how you work or conduct your business."

CC subscription is just one more bit of evidence of the impending zombie apocalypse.


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