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Rich Rubasch
Another problem with all this...
on Nov 14, 2013 at 6:15:51 pm

Once you are locked as a subscriber and start creating large projects with the software, obviously you need to stay on...hence the deep discounts now, because they know they will have you.

I had Charter service and wanted to upgrade my internet speed...they told me they don't even sell my current (slow) plan and could upgrade my modem and speed for $35/month LESS! Of course they weren't going to tell me that unless I asked.

So with a subscription they have you...and when you DO start paying full price it will start to add up and there will be no way out with several years of legacy projects that may be online. And they may offer discounts to new users, and you will simply be stuck with the "new" pricing, which can be whatever they want (auto debited from your account like clockwork every month) because they got you by the...

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 14, 2013 at 8:48:03 pm

For AfterEffects there is an option to save as CS6. Audition CC projects are editable in CS6. Only Premiere may give some trouble - but if I quit subscribing it is because I am shifting to another NLE, and all I will be able to import anyway is an XML.

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 14, 2013 at 9:03:19 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "So with a subscription they have you...and when you DO start paying full price it will start to add up and there will be no way out with several years of legacy projects that may be online. And they may offer discounts to new users, and you will simply be stuck with the "new" pricing, which can be whatever they want (auto debited from your account like clockwork every month) because they got you by the..."

By full price do you mean $50 a month or do you mean it's inevitable that Adobe will keep raising the monthly price?

At least for video editors there is lots of competition (FCP, Avid, Smoke, even Lightworks) so I don't feel Adobe is in a position to start jacking up the prices nor coast with the feeling that they have people 'locked in'.

Many people that spent 10's, if not 100's, of thousands of dollars on Avid workflows moved to FCP and that's an significantly higher monetary comment than what Adobe CC is. Adobe has to keep it sane or people will walk away.




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David Mathis
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 14, 2013 at 10:24:22 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Many people that spent 10's, if not 100's, of thousands of dollars on Avid workflows moved to FCP and that's an significantly higher monetary comment than what Adobe CC is. Adobe has to keep it sane or people will walk away."

Not only that, think of the money that was spent on low capacity storage that has become obsolete or soon will be that way. Technology is a funny thing.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 14, 2013 at 10:47:48 pm

[David Mathis] "Not only that, think of the money that was spent on low capacity storage that has become obsolete or soon will be that way. Technology is a funny thing."

No kidding. Many places I work at that have been around for a while have the old Avid branded harddrives just laying around. They are useless but they probably cost so much back in they day that people don't want to just throw them out. ha!




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David Mathis
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 14, 2013 at 10:50:06 pm

Those would make a great museum piece or a nice way to decorate the hallway.


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Shane Ross
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 5:06:20 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " Many places I work at that have been around for a while have the old Avid branded harddrives just laying around."

One of those places that you and I both worked at (and I still am working at) is using two RMAGs as a monitor stand in my bay. Another place I worked at used them as doorstops.

Rich, I wouldn't say this is "another problem with this..." It is THE problem with this. I am constantly referencing old FCP 7 and FCP 6 projects for one reason or another. Just this week I'm accessing an old feature doc I onlined because the filmmakers sold the international broadcast rights, so I needed to prep a textless version and update the trailer. This was the first time I opened FCP 7 on my system in over a year. If this was an Adobe CC project, I couldn't do this at all unless I coughed up $50-$80 for this one month. For software I already paid for.

No...this is my WHOLE problem with the CC subscription. I like it as an option, but not as the ONLY option. This is what is preventing me from advancing past CS6, which is not without issues...so I'm mainly sticking to Avid MC. With CS6 to do the fancy stuff I can't do in Avid.

Before I jumped onto the Production Bundle, I only bought and used Photoshop. And I kept using the old version until it no longer worked well with the OS I had. Because I don't use tons of the new features, I do simple things. So the one I bought worked fine. I can't imagine paying a subscription for years and years (gap between versions for me is 6 years) just so I can retouch family photos.

Software is NOT a service, it is a product. Internet is a service, a phone line (But not the phone)...cable. Not software.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Mathis
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 7:40:33 pm

[Shane Ross] "Software is NOT a service, it is a product. Internet is a service, a phone line (But not the phone)...cable. Not software."

My thoughts exactly. Just think if we had to pay a monthly fee to use a hammer to put a nail in the wall. When we cancel our subscription we no longer have access to the hammer and the nail is taken out.

This is why I a problem with CC being the only option. I have no problem with a subscription model to rent software as needed, meaning it is not used all the time. Paying a monthly fee to use software I do need on a consistent basis, that I have issue with.


Would really like to see a buyout option after a set period of time. I would then be more likely to pay a monthly fee for software I need on occasion but want the option to cancel without penalty.

I do see CC having potential but more options would be great. That is my thought for the day.


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Shane Ross
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 10:53:21 pm

GenArts does this...successfully. You can buy the Sapphire plugins, at the pretty high price of $2800. Or, you can rent them as needed...they have monthly plans. This appeases everyone, me included.

Sorry, Adobe. I love what you are doing with your software, love the new features. I think it is a HUGE version that solves a lot of post issues I have. but I won't be using it due to this subscription model.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Mathis
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 11:10:18 pm

[Shane Ross] "GenArts does this...successfully. You can buy the Sapphire plugins, at the pretty high price of $2800. Or, you can rent them as needed...they have monthly plans. This appeases everyone, me included."

Was this under the new pricing program of maintenance and support? If so, that looks very promising and something that would interest me.


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 14, 2013 at 11:20:51 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "I had Charter service and wanted to upgrade my internet speed...they told me they don't even sell my current (slow) plan and could upgrade my modem and speed for $35/month LESS! Of course they weren't going to tell me that unless I asked. "

Yep. Had the same thing happen with my cell phone plan last weekend. I had to say goodbye to my unlimited data plan, though. No big deal, I'm paying a less but getting more of what I actually needed, mobile hotspot, better phone, no 2 year contract lock, and I own the phone outright. But, they didn't clue me into any of the perks until I walked in the store.

Your post got me to thinking about another thing we keep hearing: "Just rent the software when you need it!"

I still find the "just rent it" solution (being proffered by Adobe right now) such a jagged pill to swallow.

The "just rent it when you need it" argument comes down to this exchange (in my head):

Adobe: Don't worry about your data-you'll never lose it! If you have the project file, we'll make sure that it'll open for you. Just make sure the project file and your data are backed up; rent the software for a month, and we'll make sure it opens.
Me: That means that in 10 years, when I need to open the documentary I did in 2013, it will actually open and be usable on whatever computer I would be using in 2023?
Adobe: Yep.
Me: Right... Wait! I can't get stuff I did on CS4 to open up in CS6 smoothly or dependably.
Adobe: Well, we had some pretty BIG changes to the software during those iterations.
Me: I know, I was there. But, that was only something like a 3 or 4 year difference in software.
Adobe: Yes.
Me: So a projected 10 year difference in software will not be a problem; but, a four year window of ACTUAL changes in software was a problem?
Adobe: Oh, and we'll charge you more for the 1 month solution because you didn't buy into the concept when we told you to--thus proving yourself a loyal customer...
Me: But I WAS a loyal customer until CC. I just didn't want to pay a subscription fee without a guaranteed backup plan.
Adobe: We don't see it that way. Loyalty is proven by your willingness to pay us every month for a promised solution that you've not actually seen.
Me: Uh, I really won't respond to that because you didn't even listen to what I said. However, I'm okay with the extra expense if you can guarantee my exit strategy. Are you SURE the projects will open?
Adobe: Yep, just pay us now and don't miss your opportunity.
Me: You know, I'd feel a lot better if I had something I could re-install or at least troubleshoot if need to re-open the projects later. Do you understand what I mean?
Adobe: --Silence-- --Crickets chirping--
Me: Hello?
Adobe: --More silence--
Me: Are you even listening to me now?
Adobe: --Long delay-- Listen here buddy, it's called a subscription model and we know it's the FUTURE of computing. No one will be using software they actually paid a perpetual license for in the future. So, sign up now before you miss your opportunity!

Me: Really? The future, huh? So you must be on the bleeding edge of this future. So, all of that data that you have on those great big servers in your large corporation are all working off subscription model software with no backups?
...
I didn't think so.

-dl


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Gary Huff
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 12:26:46 am

It's not helpful to have, as a part of your argument, imaginary conversations in your head.


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 12:34:05 am

[Gary Huff] "It's not helpful to have, as a part of your argument, imaginary conversations in your head."

True.

-dl


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Richard Herd
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 1:01:33 am

huh...look up the word prolepsis. I mean, even the ants prepare for winter.


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Gary Huff
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 1:16:54 am

[Richard Herd] "huh...look up the word prolepsis."

Yeah, but it's not something you do in discussion with others.


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Michael Hendrix
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 12:31:59 am

The hole in your argument is, this would be a problem with a perpetual license as well. I am sure if they still sold perpetual licenses for the next 10 years, you would upgrade several times. And unless you opened every project at every upgrade for the next ten years, you would still be stuck with a ten your old project that would not open.

The only way to archive something this long is in a rendered file.



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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 12:54:20 am

I'm not really offering an argument. It was a piece of narrative in my head.

[Michael Hendrix] "And unless you opened every project at every upgrade for the next ten years, you would still be stuck with a ten your old project that would not open.

The only way to archive something this long is in a rendered file."


Well, yes and no. "Yes" in the sense that I agree that is a solution. But, "no" in the sense that that isn't my workflow. I would actually keep the media from the software version I used for the project itself on the shelf next to the hard drives I used for the project. At least that's the way I done it for several years now. If I ever needed to revisit the project itself, I could always reinstall the software. I don't normally roll the project forward to the next version unless it's something that I can re-purpose for other uses. I think that the "roll the project forward" idea is something that Adobe assumes everyone does.

-dl


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David Lawrence
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 16, 2013 at 5:38:47 pm

[Michael Hendrix] "The only way to archive something this long is in a rendered file."

The projects I made in Final Cut Pro HD ten years ago still open up fine in Final Cut Pro 7. A long rendered file is not the same as having an editable master.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Gary Huff
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 12:44:29 am

[Dustin Lawhorn] "That means that in 10 years, when I need to open the documentary I did in 2013, it will actually open and be usable on whatever computer I would be using in 2023?"

[Michael Hendrix] " am sure if they still sold perpetual licenses for the next 10 years, you would upgrade several times. And unless you opened every project at every upgrade for the next ten years, you would still be stuck with a ten your old project that would not open."

This got me thinking...what would it be like trying to open a project from 2003 today?

Well, first, let's say you started it now on your (relatively) shiny new copy of Final Cut Pro 4. You probably would have edited footage that was sourced from Digibeta, DVCPRO, or DV. 480i obviously.

Now you want to edit it in 2013, or at least tinker around. First of all, I hope you made a backup of the actual captured footage, and didn't just trash it to save space because disk space costs money and you have the tapes right? How easy would it be to ingest again today in 2013?

Next, your project file is FCP4. Well, I can get FCP7 running on my new Retina MBP, but forget anything below that, and definitely forget FCPX being able to open that project file. Oops, FCP7 won't open it, so I need probably 5 and 6. Oh, and old hardware to run it on because I can't just get it up and running on my shiny new stuff. And I hope you kept copies of 5 and 6 around (if you didn't just upgrade straight to 7 in the first place) because that's going to be another big hurdle.

It's not that easy, and the fact you think it should be seems to miss the boat on what the last 10 years have already shown us.


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 2:08:29 am

I'm definitely NOT saying that it is easy, or even that it should be easy. I'm saying that I have purposely addressed the problem with the software at each stage of my workflow.

I actually keep the media from the software version I used for the project itself on the shelf next to the hard drives I used for the project. Hardware follows the project, too. If I ever needed to revisit the project itself, I could always reinstall the software and even the hardware. I can put together the win 2k system that I was running Avid on in about 3 hours. I can also emulate the win XP system that I was running PP on 6 years ago. I've actually run old Avid projects through that emulated environment. It was a pain; but, I got it done. I've not had to roll FCP back as far as you mention above (I wasn't using FCP regularly until version 5). But typically I have only needed footage or assemble edits. Besides, I really would rather not use those old Matrox cards again!
Anyway, my point is that I've been able to work out a plan of action in most of those situations based on being able to access the legacy version of the software quickly and conveniently. Can't do that with CC subscription; so, I haven't been able to incorporate it in my workflow.

-dl


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Gary Huff
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 3:37:09 am

[Dustin Lawhorn] " Can't do that with CC subscription"

Actually you can. You can go back to CS6.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 4:02:08 am

[Gary Huff] "Actually you can. You can go back to CS6."

I believe Adobe said CC subscribers will have access to the last five versions of each app (starting w/CS6). I got back on the CC bandwagon for a new gig where they are using the latest apps but I also downloaded CS6 to work with a friend on his project and he has a PL of CS6.




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Todd Kopriva
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 7:32:09 am

> I believe Adobe said CC subscribers will have access to the last five versions of each app (starting w/CS6).


Yes, we've committed to _at least_ five major versions back being available to subscribers. By "major version", I mean a version where we change the number before the dot (e.g., from 12.2 to 13.0).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 12:38:09 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Yes, we've committed to _at least_ five major versions back being available to subscribers. By "major version", I mean a version where we change the number before the dot (e.g., from 12.2 to 13.0)."

Todd,

How often do you think the major versions will come out? Every 24 months or so? The frequent updates will certainly make the time between major versions much more enjoyable.


-Andrew




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Todd Kopriva
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 3:13:07 pm

> How often do you think the major versions will come out?


Our current thought for After Effects is that we'll change the major version number every year or so, but this could change to be less frequent. It's hard to predict that kind of detail that far into the future. And other applications may change their major version number less frequently than After Effects does if---for example---they're only making minor tweaks at a time when After Effects makes a big change.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 6:16:12 am

Hmmm... please read this. http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/5738

If I'm reading that right, we would need to make a list of things that we cannot use in AE CC to ensure our AE project will open in CS6. That's immediately a creative headache--a Creative Clutter. Same thing is true for PP, Audition, and so forth.

As we all know, PP CC files won't even open in PP CS6. Just like .docx files don't open in old versions of Word. Also, we should acknowledge that backwards compatibility features are really only in the new versions of software to allow those with older versions of the software to be able to do some basic work with the files sent to them. The assumption is that they will be updating their software sometime 'soon'. It's a feature designed to accommodate the 2-3 year updaters that buy the PL version every other generation of the software until they update. However, when a company decides not to offer PLs anymore, where does that lead the 2-3 year updaters? It effectively cuts them out of the equation. Everyone must be a current user, or, 'on hiatus' until they have an emergency project that must be done with the "month only" 'solution'. Backwards compatibility becomes a feature that is used less and less because everyone is either on the bandwagon or off.

What's the point of the backwards compatibility "feature" if our only legitimate backup option is to constantly save CS6 versions of the projects along the way? That means we should have just stayed with CS6 the entire time, doesn't it? Besides, who knows what "features" will break along the "save as CS6" path. It's just not a viable solution to the underlying issue: no exit plan.

-dl


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 7:26:35 am

[Dustin Lawhorn] "What's the point of the backwards compatibility "feature" if our only legitimate backup option is to constantly save CS6 versions of the projects along the way? That means we should have just stayed with CS6 the entire time, doesn't it? Besides, who knows what "features" will break along the "save as CS6" path. It's just not a viable solution to the underlying issue: no exit plan."

I'm confused. Earlier you said you would just reinstall old versions of software as needed to work on old projects. You can still do that w/Adobe & CC. If you have a PPro 6 project you can just open it with PPro6. You don't have to open it with PPro 7 (the most current version). When PPro 8 comes out PPro 6 and PPro 7 will still be available for download so you can still open up older project files with their 'native' program if you want to.




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Chris Pettit
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 4:24:24 pm

[Dustin Lawhorn] "we would need to make a list of things that we cannot use in AE CC to ensure our AE project will open in CS6. That's immediately a creative headache--a Creative Clutter."

Exactly Dustin. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. There is simply no way I could even begin to keep track of what features I can, and what I can not, use in order to protect the work over time by making sure it's backwards compatible with CS6. My projects have files created in all kinds of Adobe software, AE, PP, AU, FL, PS, etc

It's simply unworkable. CS6 is not a solution to backwards compatability from CC over time. I know ive posted this before, but I'm going to again for anyone who has not read this article, this is from a VP at Adobe:

"The community is telling us is that what we have in place today – where you can export from your CC apps to CS6 – is not an acceptable solution," admits Sharma. "There are other ideas and expectations that customers have that we are actively discussing internally – but more importantly with our advisors and customers (on the forums)."

http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/creative-software/adobe-vp-on-creat...

Even Adobe acknowledges this issue.


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David Lawrence
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 16, 2013 at 5:51:14 pm

[Gary Huff] "This got me thinking...what would it be like trying to open a project from 2003 today?"

[Gary Huff] "It's not that easy, and the fact you think it should be seems to miss the boat on what the last 10 years have already shown us.
"


It's simple if you know how to archive.

After you digitize your footage you never touch the tapes again. The digital media files are the new source masters. Tapes should be kept in storage for emergency recovery.

After completing a project, the project and media can be media-managed to a new archive drive, or simply organized on the work drive. The work drive is then taken out of production is now the archive.

Need to open a project from 2003? No problem. Open it and let the application upgrade the project format.

I do this all the time in Final Cut Pro 7. It's simple and works perfectly fine.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Gary Huff
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 16, 2013 at 11:36:42 pm

[David Lawrence] "After you digitize your footage you never touch the tapes again. The digital media files are the new source masters. Tapes should be kept in storage for emergency recovery."

My point was what if you didn't do that? I have seen plenty of setups where they delete the footage because, hey, it's on tape!

[David Lawrence] "I do this all the time in Final Cut Pro 7. It's simple and works perfectly fine."

From what I was able to ascertain, you can't open a Final Cut Pro 4 project directly in Final Cut Pro 7. Could be wrong on that though.


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David Lawrence
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 17, 2013 at 12:06:20 am

[Gary Huff] "My point was what if you didn't do that? I have seen plenty of setups where they delete the footage because, hey, it's on tape!"

If you didn't do that then you did it wrong, lol.

Seriously. I just don't have much sympathy for anyone who throws out all their work because "hey, it's still on tape!".

That kind of thinking reflects a very poor understanding of digital media in general.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Gary Huff
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 17, 2013 at 4:12:23 am

[David Lawrence] "That kind of thinking reflects a very poor understanding of digital media in general."

I completely agree on that. All of the stuff I shot back on HDV is all .MT2 files now. I still have the original tapes, but if I needed anything, I would have to scrounge to find an option to pull it off.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 7:29:27 am

> Wait! I can't get stuff I did on CS4 to open up in CS6 smoothly or dependably.


Is that actually happening for you? In After Effects? If so, please submit a detailed bug report, since we'd need to know about that:
http://adobe.ly/ReportBug

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Gary Huff
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 15, 2013 at 1:33:44 pm

I have opened a lot of old projects from CS3/4 without issue in CS6/CC.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Another problem with all this...
on Nov 17, 2013 at 8:00:02 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "Once you are locked as a subscriber and start creating large projects with the software, obviously you need to stay on...hence the deep discounts now, because they know they will have you....

...And they may offer discounts to new users, and you will simply be stuck with the "new" pricing, which can be whatever they want (auto debited from your account like clockwork every month) because they got you by the..."


I was going to use the Cable Company metaphor -- new subscribers get a nifty discount on phone, internet, on-demand, what have you -- but Cable TV has competitors.

No, I'll stick to the metaphor of the scruffy-looking guy lurking around an urban schoolyard in a beat-up trench coat:

"Psssst! Hey, editor! You want some.... Premiere Pro? How about a little After Effects? Hey, don't go away, everybody wants Photoshop! Gotta great deal goin' right now! Don't you want to try some? All your friends do it...."

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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