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It's hard sell time

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Billy Payn
It's hard sell time
on Nov 5, 2013 at 10:16:09 pm

Hi - I've had 3 emails from Adobe today, one was the Inspire Magazine, the other two just telling me that there are new tools with Creative Cloud.
Every time I look at a page which has any relevance to video, kit - editing, compositing etc, there's an ad for Creative Cloud. That's a lot of noise.
Good job guys, now if you could just see your way clear to do a spot of listening... that would be good.
Your new tools sound pretty cool, some of them I'd like to try - but the mayhem I see happening on your own forum pages is scarily looking as though your empire is unravelling, perhaps you have invested too much time in 'protecting' your software for that software to be able to work properly, and though I know these unfortunates are most likely in the minority, the posts belie the fact that all is not working well.
Your Customer Services are the worst I've ever had the misfortune to deal with, my system is working very well at the moment and I will not do anything to risk upsetting that. (lest I have cause to ring up and enjoy a pleasant hour on the phone to India)
Then - There's the fact that I will not rent software. (that's a full stop)
So, please feel free to keep telling me stuff about how good your new products are, but until you tell me that I can by a perpetual licence for it, I'll keep putting it aside and not read it.
Then there's the fact that as a once loyal customer and champion of your products, I wish your rent only endeavour to fail, just what you want from your clientele.
Thanks for listening.
Billy



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Chris Pettit
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 12:06:53 am

[Billy Payn] "Hi - I've had 3 emails from Adobe today, one was the Inspire Magazine, the other two just telling me that there are new tools with Creative Cloud.
Every time I look at a page which has any relevance to video, kit - editing, compositing etc, there's an ad for Creative Cloud. That's a lot of noise.
Good job guys, now if you could just see your way clear to do a spot of listening... that would be good."


Same emails, same web page experience (it's really a bit much don't you think?). Same reaction.

For those who haven't had the joy so far:



Adobe continues to violate it's explicit commitment to respond to concerns about exit strategies and backwards file incompatibilities, and does so without any comment whatsoever. So be it. The bad PR and long term distrust of Adobe as a company will just keep building. Good job guys.

They can either continue to tell us to go "f ourselves" or they can listen (just a little bit), and start a dialog on how to get all of us back in to the fold.

In the meantime, I would like to point out that Adobe specifically said they would support CS6 as an alternative or backup to CC subscriptions 6 months ago, but I have received NO emails regarding expanded support for "ULTRAHD, RAW and high resolution formats" for CS6.

So simply keeping up with formats is outside the purview of updates to the CS6 products? And if so, where did Adobe get the shear brass balls to claim that CS6 was our safety blanket if CC subscriptions stopped? On my vimeo blog, that claim was repeatedly made.

I know there's division of opinion at Adobe about what's next, but couldn't somebody over there start some kind of a dialog with us?


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Gary Huff
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 3:44:26 am

[Chris Pettit] "In the meantime, I would like to point out that Adobe specifically said they would support CS6 as an alternative or backup to CC subscriptions 6 months ago, but I have received NO emails regarding expanded support for "ULTRAHD, RAW and high resolution formats" for CS6."

That would be called, moving the goalposts.


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Paul Neumann
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 3:35:31 pm

I was under the impression that CS6 would continue to receive bug fixes and the like only. No new features would be added. Basically, they'll continue to support it so that you can continue to use it "as is", but that they won't be adding functionality.


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Chris Pettit
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 4:00:02 pm

You're probably right except:

I used to get updates to PS for new Camera RAW formats for example. So with new codecs for 4K etc, there will be no updates to CS6? Not sure why, except the obvious intention to attempt force us into CC subscriptions.

But either way, why did they spend so much time trying to convince us that we're protected by keeping our copy of CS6, when we already are behind the curve with new codecs and formats? And if Adobe concedes now that CS6 is not a solution for formats etc, don't they owe us some communication about how they intend to deal with this issue?


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Billy Payn
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 4:09:29 pm

My concerns don't really encompass the codec thing so much, having Cineform is one way of not being left behind here, so long as the codec is on the computer, Cineform can convert it to Cineform intermediate, generally a very workable solution for any definition /frame rate and interlacing can be preserved or turned to progressive. This has effectively future proofed my CS6. An added benefit is that whereas as AVIs Cineform files give the processor a fairly easy ride, AVCHD (or as I like to think of it, A Very Compressed HD) doesn't and makes it work harder and is not as stable.
Doesn't make what Adobe is doing any less annoying though.



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Chris Pettit
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 4:13:36 pm

[Billy Payn] "My concerns don't really encompass the codec thing so much, having Cineform is one way of not being left behind here, so long as the codec is on the computer, Cineform can convert it to Cineform intermediate, generally a very workable solution for any definition /frame rate and interlacing can be preserved or turned to progressive. This has effectively future proofed my CS6."

Interesting. I've used Cineform in the past, but not lately. Does it handle 2K and 4K well?


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David Lawrence
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 5:26:48 pm

[Billy Payn] "...having Cineform is one way of not being left behind here, so long as the codec is on the computer, Cineform can convert it to Cineform intermediate, generally a very workable solution for any definition /frame rate and interlacing can be preserved or turned to progressive."

[Chris Pettit] "Interesting. I've used Cineform in the past, but not lately. Does it handle 2K and 4K well?"

I'm curious about Cineform as well. I hear that GoPro has made it free. What's the best way to install and start experimenting with it on Mac OS?

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Billy Payn
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 6:22:48 pm

I remembered reading on their website that it would handle 4k, though when I looked in my version of the conversion tool there is not resolution above HD, I'll download the latest one when I have a bit of time, the website does say it will deal with 2k, 3k and 4k, I won't know till I get 4k up and running which is looking a bit more costly and complicated than I thought.
I think if you give HD connect (Cineform capture and conversion tool) a 4k file, as long as it has the codec, it should just get on with it. The proof of the pudding...



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Chris Pettit
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 6:31:29 pm

Hi David. I downloaded the free version from GoPro a little while ago, just for transcoding Gopro footage (I hadnt previously thought of using it for other types of footage). I think you can try it here, they're calling it "studio":

http://gopro.com/software-app/gopro-studio

But I think there is also a pro (pay) version of the software too, just haven't had time to look in to it


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Walter Soyka
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 11:39:36 pm

[Chris Pettit] "Interesting. I've used Cineform in the past, but not lately. Does it handle 2K and 4K well?"

I'm a big CineForm fan. I have used it as an intermediate for 4K and arbitrary resolution work.

CineForm uses wavelet compression like JPEG2000, not DCT like ProRes or DNxHD. Practically speaking, that means it's significantly less prone to blocking artifacts, comparably prone to ringing artifacts, and noticeably more prone to blurring artifacts.

CineForm also encodes at constant quality, not constant bitrate like ProRes/DNxHD. As with ProRes and DNxHD, stepping up to higher profiles reduces artifacting at the expense of file size.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Pettit
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 11:52:00 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I'm a big CineForm fan. I have used it as an intermediate for 4K and arbitrary resolution work.

CineForm uses wavelet compression like JPEG2000, not DCT like ProRes or DNxHD. Practically speaking, that means it's significantly less prone to blocking artifacts, comparably prone to ringing artifacts, and noticeably more prone to blurring artifacts.

CineForm also encodes at constant quality, not constant bitrate like ProRes/DNxHD. As with ProRes and DNxHD, stepping up to higher profiles reduces artifacting at the expense of file size."


I can always count on you being well informed Walter! Thanks for the input.

Question, are you on a Mac platform? If so, do you find yourself choosing Cineware over ProRes usually?


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Walter Soyka
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 7, 2013 at 4:16:13 am

[Chris Pettit] "I can always count on you being well informed Walter! Thanks for the input."

Thanks for the kind words!


[Chris Pettit] "Question, are you on a Mac platform? If so, do you find yourself choosing Cineware over ProRes usually?"

I use both Macs and PCs. I have the CineForm decoder installed on my Macs, but I have not purchased licenses for the encoder on the Mac side, as I already have ProRes available to me. Since either platform can decode both codecs, I can even mix and match within the same project.

GoPro Studio is free, but its free CineForm encoder tops out at 1920x1080, so it's no good for my large-raster work. If you want to lift the resolution restriction, you have to step up to GoPro Studio Premium ($300). That also gets you 4:4:4:4 (RGBA). The chroma-subsampled variants can also carry alpha; I'm not sure if this is available on the free version or not.

I use a lot of image sequences, too, when I want to avoid compression entirely.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Armando Ciurana
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 6, 2013 at 8:21:51 pm

Some how, Adobe is fortunate with a lot of us, that we are waiting for this Cash Cow thing to expose itself as a very bad idea.

In other circumstances many of us would have jumped ships a long time ago, luckily for Adobe there´s a lot of people who think FCPX is a crappy solution or we are not in the peace of mind to go back to Avid and complicate our lives, so there´s a lot of us hoping that they make things right and restore the perpetual license for their products, PP Pro and After Effects, but that window of opportunity is not going to last forever. Some other company will take the opportunity and grab us as Adobe did some time ago.

President
Ciurana Dussauge Films Mexico


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Alex Petrovitch
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 10, 2013 at 4:25:44 pm

Armando (and others)....
I just started with Premiere this year, and I am paying a monthly subscription. Are those of you speaking in terms of "perpetual license" are users who purchased the program, not rented the program? Am I already locked into the rental model?


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Billy Payn
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 11, 2013 at 6:57:20 pm

Hi Alex
You can still buy CS6, then you can use it as long as you like as often as you like. If you stay with CC, you'll pay a monthly subscription and if you stop paying, your programs will not work. CS6 will still work but if you've created projects in PPro CC, they won't work in CS6, and if you've used any of the functionality that has only been added in CC, (in the other programs) it won't be there if you open in CS6.
There are lots of people just like me who have been using this software for years, supporting the company by upgrading every so often, and who have therefore spent lots of our cash on these programs. For Adobe to suddenly say that renting is the only choice now, is not going down well, though the share holders seem to think it's a good idea, I'm waiting to see what happens, CS6 is brilliant, it's stable and is very powerful, it'll do for quite a few years, even though there are some nice sounding updates, they are not enough to tempt me to buy into monthly payments for what would effectively (and they hope) forever, or until someone else comes out with an alternative.



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Alex Petrovitch
Re: It's hard sell time
on Nov 11, 2013 at 8:23:33 pm

Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I'm new to Adobe, so I didn't know the history. I am currently renting CS6, so if I stopped renting, I wouldn't have a program to open it. If it gets to be problematic, I'll go back to AVID. I figure if enough people have problems with it, demand will drop, and the market will dictate a change in their policy. My understanding was that the rental model was good, since I can't afford to purchase the entire suite (Editing, Photoshop, Muse, etc), and it made it easy to get access to all. I didn't see the negative, until reading these forums.

Thanks again,
Alex

Alex Petrovitch
http://www.markwoodfilms.com
2013 iMAC 3.4 Quad Core i7, 32GB RAM, 3TB Fusion
FCP7/CS6/AVID
Canon 7D&5Dmk3
Panasonic HVX200


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