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A conversion with my wife this morning.

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Daniel Frome
A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 13, 2013 at 2:01:43 pm

My wife is a casual photographer, who is often using lightroom on my computer to do her photography. This morning I tried to entice her to get her own copy of lightroom, which she has been eyeing for a very long time. What transpired as we sat on the couch couldn't have been scripted better...

Me: "Did you know Adobe has this deal to get Photoshop and Lightroom for 9.99 a month?"

Her (sounding very interested): "Oh really? Wait... like 9.99?"

"Yeah, 9.99 per month. Good deal huh?"

Suddenly her facial reaction changes. "But ...that's kind of dumb to have to pay 9.99 every month. That's too annoying, can't I just buy it?"

"Hah, yeah... I think you can still just buy lightroom but you can't actually buy anything else adobe makes, just rent it."

"hmm" as she got up and went on preparing for her day at work, not giving it a second thought.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 13, 2013 at 3:42:37 pm

I doubt your lovely wife rents her camera bodies, tripods, lenses, filters, flashes, backgrounds, storage cards... you get the idea.

To her -- and to a LOT of people -- software like Lightroom is one of the frequently-used tools of the trade. And you don't rent your frequently-used tools.

You OWN them. So you HAVE them and you don't have to worry about them.

Makes perfect sense to me.

You rent studio space if you need it.
You rent a fancy camera for those rare jobs that call for something more specialized than you own: a view camera, for instance.
You rent a scissor lift if you need to shoot a high angle in a parking lot.

But renting the stuff you use every day? That's crazy talk.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tim Kolb
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 13, 2013 at 9:09:54 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "I doubt your lovely wife rents her camera bodies, tripods, lenses, filters, flashes, backgrounds, storage cards... you get the idea."

I doubt that Canon or Nikon regularly update her camera bodies...

Not wanting to rent software is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint, but it's a bit difficult to come up with a truly applicable business analogy. Hardware really doesn't work.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Chris Pettit
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 14, 2013 at 12:21:06 am

[Tim Kolb] "I doubt that Canon or Nikon regularly update her camera bodies..."

??. Personally, I have HDSLR: T2i, a T3i and a T4i from Canon in about 3 years. Maybe slightly less frequently then Adobe software, but they do. My sister in law is a pro still photog, she has half a dozen cameras purchased in the last 5 years.

The production company I outsource to has migrated to new cameras frequently, I just had a meeting with them today about which 4K camera they are looking at (F55 in the running). They would never rent cameras I can assure you. I don't know anyone in the business that does, unless as Dave suggests they're specialized cameras, in which case you would rent, use, and then return after the project is over.

Tools are tools. If you use them every day, from camera bodies, to tripods, to hammers or ladders, to software, Daves analogy is appropriate for a lot of people.


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Tim Kolb
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 14, 2013 at 2:19:33 am

[Chris Pettit] "Personally, I have HDSLR: T2i, a T3i and a T4i from Canon in about 3 years. Maybe slightly less frequently then Adobe software, but they do. "

Actually that's about one per year...so it's about as frequently as Adobe...but the difference kicks in when you consider how your oldest DSLR could be pulled out any day and shoot away...

I have cabinets upon cabinets with every version of Premiere Pro, After Effects, Photoshop, etc...add to that many past versions of Vegas, Edius, ProCoder, Avid, various 3D applications...
Windows...Mac...Amiga software...since about 1990. Like many on this forum I've had this attachment to those old versions of software that I 'own'...available just in case.

While I could install CS3 or 4... and do work if I had too...half the video formats we use now didn't exist when CS3 was released...I'd have to try to find hardware drivers for video I/O...which may or may not work with my current operating system...etc. What seems like security in principle just isn't practical unless you're archiving old hardware too...

Software is not like a camera...I have lots of those too...and occasionally I do use an old one.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Chris Pettit
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 14, 2013 at 3:13:39 am

[Tim Kolb] "Actually that's about one per year...so it's about as frequently as Adobe...but the difference kicks in when you consider how your oldest DSLR could be pulled out any day and shoot away... "

Interesting comparison Tim. Since we're talking about the functional lifecycles of a particular technology compared to another, there may be no true 'apples to apples' comparison.

My first digital camera was the Nikon 990, crappy lens, small sensor, poor low light. My next camera was the Nikon D-70, greatly improved on all fronts. Big difference. CS5 is still very functional, CS3 not so much. Not sure exactly how all this is fundamentally different.

Either way, I don't rent core tools. Neither does anyone I know.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 14, 2013 at 1:23:29 pm

[Tim Kolb] "I have cabinets upon cabinets with every version of Premiere Pro, After Effects, Photoshop, etc...add to that many past versions of Vegas, Edius, ProCoder, Avid, various 3D applications...
Windows...Mac...Amiga software...since about 1990."


What´s the bill for that today if you would have payed under the CashCow License Model?
And what do you own today, when all this was under monthly fee based distribution?
What if you stop paying all this and want to open a vid/img of your wedding?
(Re-subscribe OS, Re-subscribe Editing-App, Re-subscripe Printer driver = $ ? for a single print. Welcome to the age of Adobe!)

BtW: To keep access to old private and clients files we archive "Complete running systems". Means: Hardware and Software is backed up every two years.
It´s to critical, not to do so. Access to older projects is a base of our business.

[Tim Kolb] "half the video formats we use now didn't exist when CS3 was released..."
And there are also formats, that newer versions can´t handle.
Was surprised yesterday, that PS CS6 showed me, that it isn´t able to open an MAC .pict Format.
CS3 (is running still here also) is able to do so.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 14, 2013 at 9:25:42 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "And there are also formats, that newer versions can´t handle.
Was surprised yesterday, that PS CS6 showed me, that it isn´t able to open an MAC .pict Format.
CS3 (is running still here also) is able to do so."


Premiere Pro still supports this older still image format. Supported file formats. If it is not working for you, then you should post the file or even submit a bug report...


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Rainer Schubert
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 14, 2013 at 9:35:33 pm

I wrote PS CS6 (Photoshop) - not PP (Prem.).
And PS CS6 can´t as I wrote.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 15, 2013 at 10:20:43 am

Ah, well that one letter (s vs. p) makes a difference! ;-)

Checked with the Photoshop team and heard back that it was lost when Apple moved away from Carbon. So, there was nothing we could do about unfortunately.

PICT File Format

Hope this helps,
Dennis


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Walter Soyka
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 15, 2013 at 12:59:18 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Checked with the Photoshop team and heard back that it was lost when Apple moved away from Carbon. So, there was nothing we could do about unfortunately."

PICT was a file format that encapsulated the old Mac QuickDraw commands, which ultimately drew everything on-screen on MacOS (Classic). PICT was kind of like PostScript in that you could store the commands to draw an image procedurally rather than storing the raster itself.

Apple has dropped support for QuickDraw (and thus PICT) in their new libraries. If you're feeling angry you can't open a PICT in CS6, try opening a PICT in Apple's own Preview app. Starting with Snow Leopard (10.6, released four years ago), PICT is unsupported there, too, because QuickDraw is no longer available.

In my opinion, this isn't an issue of perpetual license versus subscription; this is about accessible data. If we had open data formats, we wouldn't need to rely on old hardware running old software to read old data.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rainer Schubert
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 15, 2013 at 2:07:36 pm

Tx again, but...
Please forget about the .pict problem.
Was an answer to T. Kolb, that half of the vid formats didn´t exist a few years ago, and that updated SW is able to handle newest developments.
My intention to bring the PICT in, was (as a had this "problem" shortly before) that older formats (archived files) sometimes fall under the table.
I can open them with CS3 or QT7 (retro Apps :) on a MAC with 10.6.8 - which are sometimes able to do duties, newer versions can´t.
That´s all. But thanks for trying to help me.
Open Standards: Agree.
If Adobes file formats were open standard (and competitors apps can open them without losing any features) - my concerns where only a part of what they are.
I would leave, don´t lose a word, only thinking about Adobe as a absolutely stupid company with trying to sell fee based SW.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 14, 2013 at 11:13:10 pm

It depends on what flavor of Pict file you're trying to open, apparently - there are a couple of possibilities, but Photoshop CS6 lists both of them as openable:
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001...

You might also try changing the file extension from .pict, to .pic - I've had luck with that in the past - the far distant past...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Rainer Schubert
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 15, 2013 at 12:23:52 am

Tx, Joseph... As I wrote, CS3 could open - it´s no problem.
Beside your helpful link (think the file was an QuickDraw pic): Adobe PS CS6 showed an error, that the file type is "...not longer supported"
(knows it, but not willing to open any longer ;)
I know about the issue of changing ".pic" to ".pict" and back
(In this case the suffix was .pct which is also used for the PICT file-format - not openable with PS CS6 by changing the suffix (MAC) or trying to import).
But that wasn´t the problem here.
Item of my post was: CS6 (and sure CC also- don´t know) can´t open the file (without workaround), CS3 could without any problem (QT7Player also).
So "newer" versions are not always an step forward (Very small example but an example).
Thanks.


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 13, 2013 at 8:38:44 pm

[Daniel Frome] "Suddenly her facial reaction changes. "But ...that's kind of dumb to have to pay 9.99 every month. That's too annoying, can't I just buy it?"

....not giving it a second thought."


Yep. That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. People are walking away just that easily from the subscription model.

Actually, my wife was working with Audition on a regular basis. She pretty much said the same thing and just went on with her life. She's working with CS6 version until it no longer meets her needs and then she's going to find something else.

-dl


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Mads Nybo Jørgensen
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 18, 2013 at 8:01:51 am

Hey Folks,

Are people really so uptight about having access to a better and cheaper version on-line than the old over-expensive complete master collection that have everything?

From this point onward I am going to dislike any post that moans about Adobe Creative Cloud (Feel free to dislike mine :-)). Why keep up the moaning?

All the nay-sayers have already identified that they can't keep on working with CS-6 or move onto something better that they can own - like the operating system that CC runs on, the mobile phone subscription, free credit cards, insurance, cable/sat license for the football games, even Netflix and Lovefilm - OK, you can still get DVD's. But honestly, if you picked your home apart home apart how many things do you actually pay a rental fee for? Including your home itself.

At least Adobe is charging you, whereas Facebook, LinkedIn, Youtube, even Creative Cow (Ha! Couldn't help including them) loves to give you their services for free, in return for your precious content, thoughts and ideas - how cool is that, it is free and you will be able to earn no money every time you contribute ;-)

Before you moan again, go check the new Fonts and behance on Adobe CC and tell me if that alone is not cool.

My 5c

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


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Rainer Schubert
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 18, 2013 at 3:05:27 pm

Not concerned about updates.
Concerned of losing my archive after the deal.
Price isn´t the deal-breaker.
Comparing to other fee-based services doesn´t make it.
I don´t lose anything by changing the telephone-provider or changing the house I live in.
But with quitting the cloud I lose access to my clients files.
And that´s simply not acceptable.

BtW: Nothing gets cheaper with this so called "cloud".
Only a matter of time, when subscription becomes more expensive than CS.
In case of former Suites it takes 3-6 years (depends on the suite and how often you updated).
And also the Master Collection (ever updated) is more expensive (latest) after 11 years (but how many bought and needed?)

Can´t see, why they have to make that a non option.
Can´t see, that it´s a great motivation for them to create overwhelming updates.
Can see the problem of hardware requirements, they can dictate in future.
Can see that it´s simply an advantage for Adobe - not us.
Can´t see why they don´t offer a serious buy-out.

Cloud is something different as clear blue sky.
I want a foreseeable future and own the right to use SW unlimited.
Good for you, if you can accept (losing everything after the deal) and live with it.
But you can´t close your eyes to some very negative aspects which are very fundamental for many (most?) users.

Good luck.


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Mads Nybo Jørgensen
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 18, 2013 at 3:31:45 pm

Rainer,

With all due respect, that is a load of false non-factual nonsense.

You do NOT loose your archive as you can keep all of your files on your own computer, hard disk - or record player - whatever, you can record data to, you can have your archive on. And NO, Adobe won't break in and delete it either, why should they?

It is pure speculation on a few ignorant people that Adobe will raise their prices out of reach from the user. Why should they?
Even if they top it up every year in line with inflation this does not equal anything near "Less upset the customer base".

And yes, as I understand it - correct me if wrong - you can use CS6 for as long as you want to, or can find a computer that will run it. However, have you actually calculated out your ROI on CS6 prurchase v running CC on a monthly or yearly subscription?

Let's stay factual, rather than passionately wrong about the facts!

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


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Rainer Schubert
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 18, 2013 at 4:52:25 pm

Mads

Right, Adobe isn´t deleting the files after the deal.
But if you stop paying the monthly fees, SW isn´t working any longer.
No software - No archive. Didn´t thought, that I have to explain again.
Most of Adobes File Formats are not open- or fully edit-editable with competitors Apps.
So - once you stop cloud, you only have useless files (if you do not re-subscribe for every single use).
I have not one day here in my business, where I don´t have to open files, that are 1-3 years old. Sometimes very much older.
So quitting this so called "cloud" means: Paying for the use of my archive for a min. of 3 years only to use what I have created.
And I think, many of us have a similar situation.
This fact isn´t simply ignore-able and also not wrong.

Prices: Have a look to their business plans.
They made their plan with losing more than half (2/3) of former users.
If they want to raise income/revenue till 2015 with 4 (than former ca 13 Mil.) installed cloud users, you can make what ever math you want...
"Why should they?"... Think, every company likes to make money.
Their strategy - Microsoftlike - is, to bind us to their products.
Once you created your archive, it´s not easy to change the Applications, because of incompatibilities (of ten thousands of files).

Yes I can and will run CS as long as I´m able to. And also investing strong in competitors.
I have some very old running systems here (Hard and Soft), only to keep access to clients files that are very old.
For me it´s simply a part of my business and a must. It´s not seldom that I have to open files, which are 5 years or older.

And calculated ROI: Cloud services are (let´s take US prices, which are cheapest) 840 $ if you need it for business.
Compare it to the most used CS Std. Suite: Full price (1300$) & 2 Upgrades within 3 years (1100$) = 2400$
Cloud: 3 years * 840$ = 2520$
Here in Europe it´s a little bit faster.
Every further year makes profit for Adobe.

I don´t think, that all the people here, which are concerned about this "cloud", don´t stay factual.
And also can´t see, where facts are wrong here.

Last: I also don´t want others to follow this business model.

So again: If you like it. Enjoy it.
But you can´t ignore that it´s not acceptable for others.
And I can´t see, where my arguments are beside reality or wrong.


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Mads Nybo Jørgensen
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 18, 2013 at 9:18:44 pm

Hey Rainer,

Thank you for clarifying that you won't loose any files once you cancel your subscription with Adobe CC. However, I think that it would be fair to say. that as long as you have paying clients, one of your expenses will be that of the digital tools. Whether your preference is to purchase or subscribe is not really important to your client. In any case, should you retire or go to another system, you can with so many subscribers signing always find one system to dry-hire etc. and I suspect locally too.

Personally, I applaud Adobe for taking a bold step to the cloud. Their new way of business in that market with such a variety of apps is a game changer. It takes guts to do that, but it is also tied into what the competitors are doing, and we are not necessarily talking about the usual suspects, but more the features coming on-line from the likes of Google and Microsoft etc. But it goes without saying, if they upset me, or damage my work, I'll be first in queue to tell them - that is exactly why they won't screw this up.

Money - do we actually care about how much money Adobe is making? Only if we are a shareholder, which anyone can be. No, we care about whether we can make a good job at a cost that is acceptable to our client.

Just 10 years or so ago it took £100K to get close to the functionality of Adobe CC. Whether one needs that kind of functionality is a completely different question. However, I never thought that these words would come out of my mouth: I am today working faster on my 3.5 year old Acer with a basic chip and 4GB Ram and Premiere Pro CC than I've ever worked on an discreet edit*, Lightworks or Avid.

In terms of ROI let me ask you this: If you can shave 20-30% off the time you are using on a job because of better productivity tools, faster playback and output rendering, how much money and importantly, free time for having fun will that get you?

Once the 150 new updates are coming out I say go try it for a test run. If you don't like the trial return to your trusted CS6, but at least you can complain from a point of being informed about what you are missing out on...

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


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Rainer Schubert
Re: A conversion with my wife this morning.
on Sep 19, 2013 at 1:41:50 am

Hey Mads

Lost archive:
For me it is absolutely not important, who will pay the fees to Adobe. The trouble is, that there is one.
I create a few ten thousand of client files here every year. Many of them have to be opened again and again, even if they are old or very old.
(Catalogues for example - I often need to modify versions from years ago)
I don´t want that my clients or me have to pay for the use of work, that is already created.
And in case of changing the software, I have to go on paying for a min. of 3 years although I use SW only to open my files.
(I have to guaranty my industrial clients a three year access to every created file)
After that, I have to download, register, bookhold and uninstall the "cloud" for every usage of files.
With Adobes new "cloud" I have to pay with classical distribution not.
My Master Collections were always updated and payed (not rented - hate it) - I can use till I´m not longer able to hold a system running them.
(But as I have many very old Apps & systems here - they will run for a long time).
And I can also sell them if I want to stop using their tools.
With "cloud" there is nothing after the deal.
But the price isn´t my concern. I would have payed double or more, if they were able and fair enough to implement a buy-out strategy.
It´s a absolute deal-breaker and I will never subscribe, no matter what features they will bring in or for which price they will offer.

I´m in the graphical business for 23 years now. I know Photoshop from it´s second version - long, long before CS.
My fields of work are 2D Design & 3D (main), Video (a little bit), web creation and Illustration.
I know about the features of cloud. There are one or two Features I would like to have (as the connection between my loved Cinema 4D and After Effect - but as I heard it terrible slow. Also the last Update of Premiere seems good).
But I already turned Adobe my back and investing time and money into competitors.
It´s amazing to see, that there are indeed competitors in many fields of work. Sometimes (espec. Vector Graphic and Web) better and faster than Adobe.
What hurts most is PS - but I will hold my CS6 and there are simply no features I want from PS CC.
For the other work we have alternatives and we are learning here how to use "newcomers".
A real problem will be (in future) the work with some clients and companies we are working for/with, when they will jump on the cloud.
As we have to find ways to handle with all the incompatibilities, Adobe will bring in (or in case of Premiere is still bringing in).
Adobe is in full knowledge of this - and I would say, a monopolist is abusing it´s marketing position here. In my eyes it simply shouldn´t be allowed.

Speed of work: My MACS are all hardcore. Times, where you have to wait on what the machine has done are past.
(Exclude 3D - where you always have to wait or to outsource)
I don´t see an App in the cloud which will allow me to raise my efficiency to 20-30% (?).
May be with Premiere a little bit. But I cant believe, that an 3.5 yrs. old Acer will beat a 3,2 GHz, 64 GB, 12 core with SSD, GPU, and Prem CS6 ;)
And also the competitors like Apple, Avid and all the others have strange pro-arguments in many fields of use.
And the others: I would also say (For Ex.) PS CS3 is not slower than PS CS6. There is no feelable difference. And I think it also with CC.
Some operations are even slower now, some are a bit faster - may be.
InDesign versus Quark? The Webtools? Can´t see that it´s worth to jump on the cloud.
Speed isn´t the problem - it´s more new features.
But I can count the ones I would like to have with one hand, really.
(When I have a look to all the dozens of real important upgrade features, 3D Applications like Maya, Max or C4D provide every circle (which you sometimes can´t learn during an upgrade-cycle) - the 150 features of Adobe for the whole Suite seems piffing)

Nothing against, that Adobe creates great SW. The concern here wouldn´t be what it is, if not so.
As I said - I use it for many years now & I love(d) it. The people who created all the tools did a great work (which was mostly only bought by Adobe) - Thanks to all of them.
I don´t like that Adobe was never able to bring all the Apps to a familiar feeling (all the differences - like layers, path-handles, GUIs, names of functions...) but in total the Apps are really great.
It´s hard to leave, I grant. And I´m losing also lots of money, I spend for PlugIns and workflow tools.
Never thought, that Adobe would do such a thing.
For me it´s a fundamental decision (of me and them) and my trust into the company Adobe is zeroed.

Right. I don´t care about, what they earn.
May be, you can spare (a very, very small) amount by higher efficiency - but why is this an Argument for Adobe to make cloud an non option as before?

I think, we have a total different few on this "cloud".
For me it´s simply not acceptable.
I also don´t want, that this is the start of a new software selling in total.
I don´t want the others (who are in the shoes - like Microsoft fe) to follow.
(At the end only good situated users will be allowed to use state of the art apps - for me it´s really a "philosophic" question)
So I will never be seen in this cloud.
And I will also not install an test version.
I really can´t understand, why there are users who see this "cloud" as an advantage.

But as I read - you are one of them who is happy with it.
Nothing against. And may be your business and philosophy is total different of mine.
So all the best for you on the cloud and me on the ground.


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