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It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?

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Morten Ranmar
It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 9, 2013 at 9:12:23 pm

Simple as this >>> If we stop subscription or even if we just sign out - we should be able to open our projects with your software and "Save as" or "Export". No editing - just save out a version of JPG, XML, OMF or whatever we need to take our work elsewhere...

This and some smaller bundles like the Photographers offer you are doing now, will get you all the love back from the entire community - and we can all get back to work ; )

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Jim Wiseman
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 9, 2013 at 9:55:49 pm

It's going to take more than XML or flat photo output to get me into the CC scheme. Nothing less than a full working opt out version of the software is acceptable. Export formats aren't going to ever be equivalent to working in the actual application. Just emulate the Autodesk model. Perpetual if you want it, rental if you need it.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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David Lawrence
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 9, 2013 at 10:11:35 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "It's going to take more than XML or flat photo output to get me into the CC scheme. Nothing less than a full working opt out version of the software is acceptable. Export formats aren't going to ever be equivalent to working in the actual application. Just emulate the Autodesk model. Perpetual if you want it, rental if you need it."

Exactly right. It really is simple, just do like Autodesk and this debate ends.

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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 9, 2013 at 10:51:46 pm

yeah but - let me digress to another rant -
there is a scenario where this is way more drawn out, and way more destructive to the software that we're used to.

half of me isn't sure that this doesn't go pretty grim. If the board ride this horse until it falls, say at 2.5+ million by 2015 (25% of CS) - then the subscription numbers are basically shot as a revenue model, nevermind what they are supposed to do with the masses of ten bucks a month photoshop crowd.

what is adobe supposed to do then? They've completely blown the upgrade cycle, flash is as dead in 2015 as it was in 2011, muse and the edge web tools are going nowhere two years from now (realistically lets be fair) - what are they doing then?

If adobe don't have a replacement subscription revenue model to present to shareholders 24 months from now, in lieu of CS - because they've really blown the upgrade model - what the hell are they trying to achieve here?

answers on a postcard please.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shane Ross
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 12:21:48 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] " yeah but - let me digress to another rant -"

Sure...why not? Nothing will stop you anyway.

:)

meant in TOTAL jest...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 8:08:24 pm

what can I say - nothing beats a good rant, except for a rapid fire sequence of rants. they're just the ticket.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shawn Miller
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 3:31:06 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "flash is as dead in 2015 as it was in 2011"

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but Flash ain't dead, bro... unless Adobe isn't making a cent from YouTube, Vimeo, Xfinity or any of the other streaming service or device manufacturers that use Flash... :-)

Shawn



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Bill Davis
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 7:06:12 am

Uh, I'm pretty sure YouTube, Vimeo et al have dumped Flash in favor of HTML-5 or H-264 or something.

After all, the planet can all watch those services on iPhones and iPads...

and those devices simply don't DO Flash.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Shawn Miller
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 6:16:25 pm

[Bill Davis]"Uh, I'm pretty sure YouTube, Vimeo et al have dumped Flash in favor of HTML-5 or H-264 or something."

in 2010:

"There's been a lot of discussion lately about whether or not the HTML5 tag is going to replace Flash Player for video distribution on the web# We’ve been excited about the HTML5 effort and tag for quite a while now, and most YouTube videos can now be played via our HTML5 player# This work has shown us that, while the tag is a big step forward for open standards, the Adobe Flash Platform will continue to play a critical role in video distribution#

John Harding, Software Engineer - YouTube "

Today:



[Bill Davis]"After all, the planet can all watch those services on iPhones and iPads... and those devices simply don't DO Flash."

Youtube, Vimeo, et al can detect and serve content based on OS and browser; the Flash player for systems that support it, HTML 5 for devices that don't. Because, you know, the world of internet connected devices is a LOT bigger than iPhones and iPads.

Shawn



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David Lawrence
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 8:02:06 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Youtube, Vimeo, et al can detect and serve content based on OS and browser; the Flash player for systems that support it, HTML 5 for devices that don't. Because, you know, the world of internet connected devices is a LOT bigger than iPhones and iPads."

Though mobile devices were a big driving force, HTML5 and open standards are the trend for the web in general, not just for iPhones and iPads.

I've been using a Flash blocker on my browser for years and my web experience is much better for it. The main reason some sites continue to use Flash seems to fall into two main categories:

1) multimedia content (an appropriate use I frequently unblock for)
2) DRM and advertisings (a PITA that I always block)

While it's very true that sites still serve Flash on request, Bill's basically right - Adobe bet big on Flash and lost.

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David Lawrence
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Shawn Miller
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 11:14:58 pm

[David Lawrence] "Though mobile devices were a big driving force, HTML5 and open standards are the trend for the web in general, not just for iPhones and iPads.

I've been using a Flash blocker on my browser for years and my web experience is much better for it. The main reason some sites continue to use Flash seems to fall into two main categories:

1) multimedia content (an appropriate use I frequently unblock for)
2) DRM and advertisings (a PITA that I always block)

While it's very true that sites still serve Flash on request, Bill's basically right - Adobe bet big on Flash and lost."


Hi David, as always you make some good points. I will concede that Flash is probably not growing in any meaningful way, and that at some point it will be an obscure technology that we all joke about when referencing the early days of web streaming and interactivity. I just don't think that day is here yet. The fact that some of the largest online retail and entertainment sites are still creating new (and annoying) Flash content every day, tells me that we have a ways to go before we can call ToD on this thing. Brings up an interesting question for me; what will truly die first, DVD video discs or Flash content. :-)

Shawn

Shawn



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David Lawrence
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 11:26:23 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Brings up an interesting question for me; what will truly die first, DVD video discs or Flash content. :-)"

Great question and I won't be sad when both are gone for good! :)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Shawn Miller
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 11, 2013 at 12:02:01 am

[David Lawrence] "[Shawn Miller] "Brings up an interesting question for me; what will truly die first, DVD video discs or Flash content. :-)""

Ha ha ha, amen. :-)



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 10:31:22 pm

yes, but shawn, Bill is right - relative to what flash was six years ago, the fact that it is relegated to legacy video distribution answers the question.

No one is making sites with flash, flash and its entire code base, its entire system for site design is dead.

To say that certain websites are still currently locked into flash wrapped video is a real networks argument.

Flash as a web development architecture is dead, and adobe acted like they had the one true ring when they had it.

They thought they had a universal runtime environment - they didn't.

The primary reason, I think, that adobe are running all these crazy moves, and dissolving their entire CS customer base, is because they sold a lot of investors on them running the world with flash and air - and then apple kneecapped them. By the look of it, Jobs enjoyed doing it too.

Adobe lack any strategic position on the web, I am reliably informed that dreamweaver is far less regarded than it was, and the new tools are a curio - they are basically trying to push pagemaker for the web with muse, and absolutely no one cares.

Adobe have no web forward message and, after killing sales, they no longer have any customers to buy any of the twenty year old software that is largely on version 10/15+ - and they are maintaining that they are going to now quadruple their current subscriber base in 24-36 months, to arrive at four million subscribers for CC. Subscribers that they then, almost immediately, have to start rapidly increasing subscription charges on to provide midterm revenue guidance.

I'm guessing, given how fast the pricing scheme is spiralling out of control with the crazy new imaging deals, that adobe are not in a position to realistically see that four million number or anything like it. In the absence of it, their entire year zero scheme is shot to hell.

It's a mess, and the current board and CEO won't be there by 2015. they're cashed out anyway, but this is a slow motion trainwreck.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Rainer Schubert
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 11:46:00 pm

Excellent


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Shawn Miller
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 11:58:18 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yes, but shawn, Bill is right - relative to what flash was six years ago, the fact that it is relegated to legacy video distribution answers the question.

No one is making sites with flash, flash and its entire code base, its entire system for site design is dead.

To say that certain websites are still currently locked into flash wrapped video is a real networks argument.

Flash as a web development architecture is dead, and adobe acted like they had the one true ring when they had it.

They thought they had a universal runtime environment - they didn't.

The primary reason, I think, that adobe are running all these crazy moves, and dissolving their entire CS customer base, is because they sold a lot of investors on them running the world with flash and air - and then apple kneecapped them. By the look of it, Jobs enjoyed doing it too.

Adobe lack any strategic position on the web, I am reliably informed that dreamweaver is far less regarded than it was, and the new tools are a curio - they are basically trying to push pagemaker for the web with muse, and absolutely no one cares.

Adobe have no web forward message and, after killing sales, they no longer have any customers to buy any of the twenty year old software that is largely on version 10/15+ - and they are maintaining that they are going to now quadruple their current subscriber base in 24-36 months, to arrive at four million subscribers for CC. Subscribers that they then, almost immediately, have to start rapidly increasing subscription charges on to provide midterm revenue guidance.

I'm guessing, given how fast the pricing scheme is spiralling out of control with the crazy new imaging deals, that adobe are not in a position to realistically see that four million number or anything like it. In the absence of it, their entire year zero scheme is shot to hell.

It's a mess, and the current board and CEO won't be there by 2015. they're cashed out anyway, but this is a slow motion trainwreck."


Hi Aindreas,

All points taken, truly. Flash may not have the user base it once had, or even met its expectations of Internet dominance like it was supposed to, but dead...? How long Flash holds on, or what part it plays in the world of digital marketing in the future... who knows. Again, not saying that Flash isn't dying, just that it's not dead. :-) Otherwise, I agree with most of what you're saying.

BTW, I passed by the new home of Real Networks two weeks ago, it was an odd feeling... I was really tempted to walk in and ask what they were doing these days. ;-)

Shawn



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Tom Sefton
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 1:07:51 pm

Even a solution that required subscription for a minimum amount of years before you owned the final version sans upgrades would be fine. Like, pay for 5 years at £80 per month and once finished that contract you own the CC software with the upgrade level you are at for then, in perpetuity (kind of like a minimum term cellphone contract after which you own the handset).

I'm baffled by Adobe's moves so far. Aside from greed.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 1:10:37 pm

& the possibility to prepay
Then I would call it an "winwin" or "fair"
Everything below this minimum is unacceptable


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Florian Sepp
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 1:47:15 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Nothing less than a full working opt out version of the software is acceptable."

absolutely Yes!

noone wants it for free. we are willing to pay (as we already prooved)
but if there is no buyout or buy in option. no way!
I am right now looking at comp software that is way more expensive than AE (CC or CS) If they dont want my money for many years to come.... well thats their thing. fortunately I still have time to wait if adobe has something god (for me) to offer in the lets say next two years. but going for lets say nuke woukd be a upgrade for me, that I thougt about for quite a while. adobe right now is giving me the kick it needs to change. If things stay like they are, I most propably will change. sad but true coming from Version 5

best regards
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 12:22:05 am

[Morten Ranmar] "Simple as this >>> If we stop subscription or even if we just sign out - we should be able to open our projects with your software and "Save as" or "Export". No editing - just save out a version of JPG, XML, OMF or whatever we need to take our work elsewhere..."

How is that going to work? What if I complete a complex After Effects project using Cineware and C4D v15, with multiple project files (maybe even dozens of projects files) that are all proprietary, with core functionalities being version dependent? How does exporting to XML etc help allow me to access that work again in the future?

Only a buyout option of some sort is going to get this done. Something that allows me to leverage the investment (rather sizable after say 10 years) that I have made in the software.


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Morten Ranmar
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 1:36:07 pm

Maybe a better model would be for Adobe to let us keep working with files that are already created, but just not be able to create new files or import new media, if we stop subscription.

Surely they could easily rewrite the software so it only closes for creation of new projects, if the subscription is closed.

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Rainer Schubert
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 2:14:03 pm

That´s not as easy.
(For example: You can "pre-save" 10000 of (may be empty) files in this case. And after sub. U use it to create "new old" edited files...)


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Morten Ranmar
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 2:21:30 pm

Sure no problem - want 10000 sub-files from the same Master, go ahead and do it for free. It is only going to be subsets of that original file.

Is that going to stop you from subscribing to CC when you get a new job?
No. Without the option to import new media, create new layers, add new masks, etc - you are not going to be able to create new original media.

So if you are professional you pay. If you just need to access an old file, and change a comma, you can do it without subscription...

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Chris Pettit
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 4:33:36 pm

For me access means "the ability to modify". It's not possible for me to modify my projects without creating new files because there are so many interdepencies. I'll remind you that Adobe has been selling us on the linked relationships between it's suite of products for many years now. The idea that I will "have access to" or be able "to modify" without the creation of new files essentially means that I cant access my work.

Attached is a snapshot collage of just one project. There simply is no way to split hairs on this conditionally. Projects are just too complex:



http://www.digitalskye.net


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Rainer Schubert
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 5:09:08 pm

true
I also think, that they have to offer full editable access to all created files.
May be with a buy-out amount or after a time (x years) of subscription.
Writing out/exporting not completely editable files is not satisfying.
(as when I´m talking of an useful archive, I don´t mean to have a look on it)


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Chris Pettit
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 5:13:41 pm

I agree. Maybe the answer lies in additional buyout fees?

You would pay full CC subscriptions for minimum period of years, after a period of time if you want current versions pay an additional buyout fee.

I would do that, even though we're talking about lots more money that I paid for CS


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Rainer Schubert
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 9:02:36 pm

Me too.
That doesn´t mean, I don´t care about money (and that there isn´t a border).
But the access to files is a base of my business.
I want to know them in a safe place.
There is not one day, where I don´t have to use a file between 1 and 3 years old.
And the files of the last 10 years are all available (including hardware, software to open them, if necessary).
As Adobe isn´t able or willing to guaranty that - they became unacceptable.
CS6 is the last Version I use, if they will not give a answer.
And I´m still investing in alternatives, as I see it hopeless.
And I can´t sit waiting for years, till they stop their marketing guys telling us, how great their solution is for most (?) of us.


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Mike Smith
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 11, 2013 at 12:04:17 am

Rainer,

I'm in the same boat. Access to files it the basis of my business, as well.

I have to use projects and files anywhere from 1-10 years back almost every single day.

As it currently stands, CS6 is that last version of Adobe's software I will be using. In fact, I've been actively investing in alternatives to Adobe's software ever since the Cloud-Only announcement.

It is simply too much of a liability to have subscription-only access to my project files.

And its not just me.

After I've explained how this Cloud-Only/Subscription-Only model works, EVERY fellow Adobe user I have talked to has opted to not upgrade and stick with CS6 to protect access to their work.

-mike


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Rainer Schubert
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 11, 2013 at 12:09:35 am

Glad to know, not to be alone ;)


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Rob Brandreth-Gibbs
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 11, 2013 at 6:33:14 pm

[Mike Smith] "After I've explained how this Cloud-Only/Subscription-Only model works, EVERY fellow Adobe user I have talked to has opted to not upgrade and stick with CS6 to protect access to their work."

Not sure how satisfied Speed Razor, edit*, DPS, Incite, Sony Xpri & a few other EOL NLE users are with their current access.

RBG

Rob Brandreth-Gibbs
Bravo Zulu Productions
Vancouver, Canada


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Andy Field
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 11, 2013 at 7:02:15 pm

Preface this by saying I'd prefer perpetual license...but by not upgrading you are missing out on the best software/speed and work improvements Adobe's created.

Premiere Pro CC - now the best editor we've used...and we loved FCP 7...but this version blows it out of the water in terms of speed and usability - no transcoding...great roundtripping to other adobe products and with new version next month, speed grade.

Editing is actually headache free and fun again with this...I would not go back to CS6.

Don't know the answer to this "need access to old projects" sometime in the future issue..and Adobe must address it.

But in reality I had the same fears when FCPX came along...and even bought 7 to x program converter....have used that nearly not at all....

yes there are templates you need from premiere and after effects...

but we upgrade with every cycle...and the subscription model has saved us money so far and we anticipate it will in the future...

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Dave LaRonde
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 11, 2013 at 9:55:26 pm

Yeah, Creative Cloud is great if you run a big shop and always work on completely new stuff all the time.

But if you are neither a big shop nor always work on new stuff, it is a VERY different story.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Andy Field
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 11, 2013 at 11:39:42 pm

However I am not a big shop - working with just a handful of people on mostly new, but some recurring projects....and the subscription cost (introductory year about 20 something a month because I was already on the cloud) hurts us not at all -- it's a fraction of one hour editing.....if you are even a one man band and get even one job a month, this is a ridiculous bargain.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Mike Parfit
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 12, 2013 at 1:08:48 am

I'm one of those Speed Razor people mentioned in an earlier letter. In an accessible place I have an NT machine with a DV card in it and Speed Razor. And just recently I found out that one of the people in a little series we did long ago had died and that parts of our episode might be nice to edit a bit and send to his family.

Speed Razor is there waiting if I want to do that. Premiere CC might not be.

Mike

http://www.thewhalemovie.com


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Rob Brandreth-Gibbs
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 12, 2013 at 4:23:25 pm

What you say, me too exactly. Except: I break out into an absolute cold sweat whenever I must fire up that old NT machine, knowing it is hit or miss whether I will be spending yet more $ to trouble-shoot that fossil. Then there's that replacement Targa 3000 board I once had to import - from Bulgaria was it? - in an emergency.

But imagine my unexpected delight when I discovered Premiere Pro CC actually reads the Speed Razor CODEC. So now all I'm left with is... accessible 4:3 Standard def. All my old shows have masters (superless masters are a good idea), and select camera footage archive drives. I've accepted that this is sufficient for EOL NLEs. Of course YMMV.

RBG

Rob Brandreth-Gibbs
Bravo Zulu Productions
Vancouver, Canada


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Jim Wiseman
Re: It's so simple Adobe - why don't you get it?
on Sep 12, 2013 at 4:39:20 am

For me it is not just being able to access old projects, although that is also important. I want to know that in the future (and the present) I can pursue work that has no immediate economic reward.

I was trained as a video artist, I have a BFA and an MFA in video art from two of the best schools in the world. (toot, toot). I don't want to have to keep doing paying projects for the rest of my life. The perpetual license model gave me the security of knowing that I would be able to do art and documentary work that was not going to be rewarded economically perhaps in my lifetime, let alone monthly. That did not relegate it to unimportance.

I also have absolutely unique documentary footage of Pacific island cultures that are disappearing. I'm not interested in spending my retirement years doing commercials or writing endless grants to pay Adobe for access to my own work.

I'd have to be an idiot to sign up for this scheme. Would I like to have access to the new improvements? Of course. But trade it for my work, my legacy? That is indeed a Faustian bargain.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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