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Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?

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Mark Dobson
Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 17, 2013 at 7:42:04 am

Just reading Ryan Air's latest story about sacking an airline pilot who spoke out about safety on a Channel Four documentary and realised that their legendary bad attitude towards customers seems very similar to that displayed by Abobe with the launch of the subscription only service.

It's an interesting comparison when looking at the way one regards a potential customer base. In both cases no one is forcing you to sign up for the service, but if you do, watch out because as a customer you are also signing up to a set of very unreasonable rules.

In both cases you benefit from the deal, with Adobe you get to use cutting edge software and with Ryan Air you get from A to B. But both companies display an arrogance towards public relations, or relationships, that has not been seen before, they simply just don't care what people think about them, they just look at their bottom line. Normally commerce is carried out with a veneer of opaqueness, sure everyone's in for profit and it wouldn't work without it, but surely the way that you conduct your business is as important as the business you conduct.

But then ultimately the customer is king, I don't fly Ryan Air and I'm not about to sign up to an eternal relationship with Adobe where over the years I pay hand over fist for the same product without actually owning it or being able to use it without being tethered to an online connection, checking into base on a pre-determined basis.

But one difference is that Ryan Air is very honest with it's iniquity and simply doesn't care what people think of them and on the other side Adobe coats it's offering in futurespeak, talking of re-imagined tools and revolutionary creative workflows.

Another difference is that with Ryan Air you get the bare bones basic deal and pay over the odds for anything extra but with the Adobe CC you get the whole shelf of products with very few options to change the deal, a bit like trying buy a chain but being told that you need to buy a complete bike to have the chain.

But with so many editors and visual designers dependent on the workflows they have developed with Adobe products they might just get away with it.


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Herbert van der wegen
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:08:59 pm

Well, Adobe has lost my business - the only Adobe product that currently does not have a good alternative is After Effects. I absolutely detest Adobe's management's total disregard for their customers. That's saying something, coming from a ~18 year long Adobe customer.

In my web design/development classes I have stopped using Adobe products. I am showing students alternatives now; and I know I am not the only instructor to do so.

In ten years time we might look back at this, and say: "This was the year Adobe's downfall began".

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Rainer Schubert
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 18, 2013 at 2:24:10 pm

Never thought, I would be glad about that, if it becomes true...


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walter biscardi
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 18, 2013 at 3:09:20 pm

[Mark Dobson] "Just reading Ryan Air's latest story about sacking an airline pilot who spoke out about safety on a Channel Four documentary and realised that their legendary bad attitude towards customers seems very similar to that displayed by Abobe with the launch of the subscription only service."

And how many Adobe personnel have you actually talked to? Have you visited them on their road shows or at NAB? Attitude towards customers is not bad, in fact it's quite good. Awesome compared to Apple which really has no communication with the end customers at all.

Witness Adobe on Twitter, Facebook, on these Creative Cow forums. Adobe personnel actively engage with and assist customers. When have you ever seen an Apple representative personally assist a customer via a public forum other than their own? You haven't and you never will. In fact, I believe they don't even participate in their own apple.com forums any longer.

You're confusing an executive corporate decision with Adobe personnel as a whole. I've been working with the Premiere Pro team for two years now and they are without a doubt the most responsive and open team I've ever experience.

So you can be mad at the corporate suits who made the subscription decision all you want, but if you want to compare someone to Ryan Air, look no further than Apple and they "shroud of secrecy." That company avoids the customers from top to bottom. At least with with Avid, Adobe and Autodesk they actively engage their end customers.

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Steve Connor
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 18, 2013 at 6:42:01 pm

[walter biscardi] " That company avoids the customers from top to bottom. At least with with Avid, Adobe and Autodesk they actively engage their end customers."

They don't entirely ignore their NLE customers, quite a few FCPX users including myself have been contacted directly by Apple in response to forum posts here on the COW and elsewhere. While it's nowhere near the open engagement that Adobe do at least it's something.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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John Davidson
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 18, 2013 at 6:54:20 pm

[Steve Connor] " quite a few FCPX users including myself have been contacted directly by Apple"

Yep. I was randomly talking to somebody on Friday who was telling me he got contacted by the feedback submission guys. I've heard from them several times. Once we committed our shop to FCPX, we got much more involved in providing user feedback through FCPX's in-app feedback form.

9 to 5 mac had an article about 2 weeks ago regarding a new 24/7 Applecare support/chat center. It would be pretty cool if there was a subdivision for pro apps. Probably 95% of a chat support person's jobs would be forwarding people to the correct chapter in the manual that nobody ever reads.

I think the first step to getting pro app support from Apple nowadays is actually using their pro apps. ;)


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 18, 2013 at 10:58:48 pm

[walter biscardi] "Witness Adobe on Twitter, Facebook, on these Creative Cow forums"

witness what though walter?

who actually cares about that? Who actually cares about adobe blasting stuff on facebook (that page is not happy) or on twitter to their mates in #postchat?
exactly how small is that group anyway? The actual "community" engaging sometimes feels ridiculously cliquish.

the fact that adobe run a relentless social media presence gets a bit less charming by the day.

Adobe's true backend for pro customers is ludicrous. How many people have posted pointless chats that go nowhere? I have.
Engaging with the actual backend adobe is a joke for untold numbers of people.

the sheen is nearly coming right off it. Although kevin or todd are surely righteous wonderful dudes.

But as a professional I've been on Adobe's actual support chat backend, involving licensing in my case - its a kafkaesque joke involving two parties who have no clue why they are there walter - we both reach for google.

For my part, I lack the facility to email or ring up someone important, and that adobe backend literally buries hours.

It's cheap. they didn't really train anyone, the person has no real understanding of what the hell is going on, its just cheap.
It is in no way that person's fault, they're smart as hell, and god knows you can feel them trying to execute well,

but, without prejudice walter, I'm inclined to think that you have no clue about that.

You fly software first class. You repeatedly refer to picking up the phone with queries, Al Mooney might as well be in your kitchen, and getting first dibs on future news is all your town.

You are not flying Ryanair. Believe me when I tell you - the adobe backend might as well be Ryanair. It is as cheap as roadside chips.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Mark Dobson
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 8:37:13 am

[walter biscardi] "You're confusing an executive corporate decision with Adobe personnel as a whole. I've been working with the Premiere Pro team for two years now and they are without a doubt the most responsive and open team I've ever experience.

So you can be mad at the corporate suits who made the subscription decision all you want, but if you want to compare someone to Ryan Air, look no further than Apple and they "shroud of secrecy." That company avoids the customers from top to bottom. At least with with Avid, Adobe and Autodesk they actively engage their end customers."


Walter - I have a huge respect for Adobe developers, technicians, advisors and especially those who in my opinion have bravely and politely responded to the barrage of indignation on this forum.

No, it's simply the new subscription model I find fault with. The comparison with Ryan Air's attitude to it's customers is a valid one, OK it's an extreme example because Ryan Air is particularly aggressive in imposing it's regime, but to force a business model onto a very loyal customer base, whilst initially producing positive results for Adobe might well come to bite them in the tail in future years, especially with new customers who will compare CC with other far more cost effective solutions in the marketplace.

And Apple has truly transformed FCPX since it's troubled launch and seems to have got it's mojo back, the continued development of the Pro Apps, the soon to be released new Mac Pro all point towards a healthy future.

I know you have switched over to PP but does your shop run FCPX in any of your suites? I'd be really interested in your opinion about FCPX following the updates it has received since launching.


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Tim Kolb
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Sep 6, 2013 at 3:56:18 pm

[Mark Dobson] "OK it's an extreme example because Ryan Air is particularly aggressive in imposing it's regime, but to force a business model onto a very loyal customer base, whilst initially producing positive results for Adobe might well come to bite them in the tail in future years, especially with new customers who will compare CC with other far more cost effective solutions in the marketplace."

First, I think Adobe made this decision out of necessity. I think that other software companies will follow as the old revenue model for software won't keep professional software companies in business anymore for reasons stated many times over.

Second, I don't think Adobe assumed they'd maintain 100% customer base through the transition. They aren't stupid and I don't think this decision was suggested and given the go ahead by a handful of executives during happy hour.

Third, I am constantly puzzled by the disconnect between the demands customers make for added features, etc in their software and the need for the manufacturer to be profitable in order to deliver those features and respond to those demands. It's a bit like the people in the U.S. who only shop at discount chains full of cheap, imported goods and yet complain that American jobs are all going overseas...it's because that's where the products they're buying are made as they refuse to pay for anything manufactured domestically...it's all interdependent.

I think we also have to separate the desire to have a perpetual license and "cost-effectiveness".

There are certainly options for many Adobe applications, but whether those options are truly more "cost-effective" over a couple years (particularly when video apps need to be upgraded for OS and video format developments if nothing else) is a question once you consider any truly viable alternatives to anything outside of Premiere Pro and Audition.

I think that the idea of renting software is a tough one for many to swallow, and I don't think that those concerns are illegitimate.

I do think that those concerns are too often masked with all sorts of other rationalizations that really don't stand up to bright light like "cost-effectiveness" or the assertion that Adobe will handcuff us all and stop innovating...which is getting to be a pretty difficult case to make if you've been watching how often new features are being released.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 12:28:17 pm

[Tim Kolb] "First, I think Adobe made this decision out of necessity. I think that other software companies will follow as the old revenue model for software won't keep professional software companies in business anymore for reasons stated many times over."

So it´s clear: Necessity of Adobe. Not us. They don´t want to do us a favor.

[Tim Kolb] "Second, I don't think Adobe assumed they'd maintain 100% customer base through the transition. They aren't stupid and I don't think this decision was suggested and given the go ahead by a handful of executives during happy hour. "

No. They didn´t (maintain 100% customers).
Their business plans till 2016 talking about losing nearby half of former customers.
Funny, that they even so see a raise of income till then. Or?
(But may be, they have to make a new math, as they make lifetime offers now ;)

[Tim Kolb] "Third, I am constantly puzzled by the disconnect between the demands customers make for added features, etc in their software and the need for the manufacturer to be profitable in order to deliver those features and respond to those demands. It's a bit like the people in the U.S. who only shop at discount chains full of cheap, imported goods and yet complain that American jobs are all going overseas...it's because that's where the products they're buying are made as they refuse to pay for anything manufactured domestically...it's all interdependent."

Isn´t that the train Adobe is on now? Making those people happy which like to buy (sounding) cheap products?
That users who can´t pay for the complete bundels/apps (and own the right to use)?
Isn´t that exactly the overseas philosophy? The telephone company philosophy?
Why not selling products serious for a real price? If it´s worth? As before?
And why catching people with "cheap" "short-time offered" "lifetime-offers"?

[Tim Kolb] "I think that the idea of renting software is a tough one for many to swallow, and I don't think that those concerns are illegitimate. "

Right (hard to swallow). But we have to specify "many" (to me its (felt) 80% - 90% and that´s "most").
And illegitimate: In my eyes Adobe is an monopolist. And so (also in my eyes) it´s also a question if a monopolist should be allowed to act like like he wants to.
Would you say, Microsoft should be allowed to sell WIN fee-based? And can you imagine the impact to not good situated people?
(And how should NSA monitor them in future? ;)

[Tim Kolb] "I think that the idea of renting software is a tough one for many to swallow, and I don't think that those concerns are illegitimate.

I do think that those concerns are too often masked with all sorts of other rationalizations that really don't stand up to bright light like "cost-effectiveness" or the assertion that Adobe will handcuff us all and stop innovating...which is getting to be a pretty difficult case to make if you've been watching how often new features are being released."


Ok. You think it´s not. But that doesn´t make this arguments impossible to think about.
Markets around Adobe are growing. Apps are mature and real advantages hard to bring in. Cost-effectiviness is not all.
Losing eveything (file-access and software) in the case of not being able to pay any longer is an other.
This missing buy-out makes the offer that extremely bitter. And I see absolutely no necessity from users few.
I think it´s the fact that let Adobe lose it´s face and makes obvious, that this "cloud" is made first to bind us.
And why should they, if their products are so great (today and in > future)?

Former updates where great, because Adobe has to show, what they have done.
We - the users - could decide, if that was worth or not. That was the sense behind updates.
Update fees where to pay for > new features. So the developer has to build them.
Now we have a situation, where Adobe wants to get payed in every case.
No decision of us. No pressure to make them (new features) overwhelming.
So we can be in fear, that Adobe wants to milk it´s old cows.
And I heard voices of Adobes VIPs that future developments are more in cloud functions than in Core Apps (what´s not the first choice of many users)
And they are also taking a credit to build somewhat they call "cloud".
For the moment I can´t see. Blue sky.
And I think, they also have no real plan of what it should be sometimes in the future.
This cloud-vision was only taken to make great marketing (which Adobe can do best of all, beside Apple)

I don´t think, one can easy say, that´s the direction, software markets have to go, to be in business tomorrow.
And I really hope, that others will not follow & that Adobe get´s a bill for what they have done.


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Gabe Strong
Re: Is Abobe CC similar to Ryan Air?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 4:32:31 am

It's interesting you compare Apple and Adobe. As a longtime FCP 7 user I was beside myself when
FCP X came out. Not my type of program. I jumped over to CS 6 with the intention of using
Adobe from then on. I was contacted twice by Apple asking what changes I would like to see in
FCP X. I asked for several things including an option for dual windows, multicam, the ability to do
at least a little track based editing. Fast foreward to today. Adobe has went to CC......
and they have also asked for my feedback in a survey that briefly gave me hope. I asked
for the popular 'buyout' option after a period of time.

Now I don't know what world you live in, but in my little world, one company
has listened to me and the other has given me a big middle finger. And
Adobe isn't the one listening.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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