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CC is now a service

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Paul King
CC is now a service
on Jul 27, 2013 at 4:44:50 pm

If I buy something, it has warranty. Once that warranty runs out I'm on my own.

If I rent something, I'm being provided a service and if the service fails, they have to fix the issue or not charge for the service.


So if Adobe claim this is a service, and if they have issues providing that service (software bugs) does that mean they have to pro rata credit customers?

Doesn't changing the way the software is paid for change the responsibility for Adobe?

I buy a car, it breaks down, I return it, they fix it.
I rent a car, it breaks down, they have to get a new car to me or stop charging me for the rental.

We're covered in Australia on the warranty side, but a service in the US must function or surely the customer should not be paying for it?
What happens here in the US? If a cell phone providers fails in service delivery, is there some sort of entitlement for the customer?


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Oliver Peters
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 27, 2013 at 6:10:56 pm

[Paul King] "What happens here in the US? If a cell phone providers fails in service delivery, is there some sort of entitlement for the customer?"

Generally no, if you are talking about a momentary outage. If a call is dropped or I fail to get a text or voicemail message due to a system "glitch" (a "bug" if you like), then that's typically covered in the fine print. If it becomes egregious, that's a different story. But, usually you are just SOL.

But... Software bugs and complete system failures are hardly equal.

In any case, Adobe seems to be working hard on bug fixes, as there have been a lot of updates on both CC and CS6 apps since the CC launch.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 27, 2013 at 7:33:16 pm

what about the hosted file sharing for groups? Thats been dead in the water for months.

#wait-ohgod-rant.

As a service provider, that feels like a service sell. God knows its one of the few fig leafs available to adobe when they attempt to argue service provision as opposed to forcing tool rental.

As a service provider, adobe seem pretty comfortable with core subscription services falling over and sitting dead for months on end.

what's worse, no one in the industry is even making much noise on it. it apparently doesn't mean anything. its just one of the stupid poorly implemented, largely ignored things they threw together to buttress the false argument that they were a service provider.

also, I feel I have to add: meanwhile, in crazy town, adobe are giving a year of CC away to anyone who turns up to a vegas photoshop convention.
they spend months setting up the customer upgrade 40% off value proposition, and now they are suddenly throwing the software away for free to anyone who turns up in vegas? at 600 dollars a pop?

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1378891

what the hell is going on there? there are four figure attendees. They're dropping something like a million bucks there to get some subscriber numbers.
Doesn't that look a little weird?

#adobe2014
adobe2014.tumblr.com

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Ricardo Marty
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 28, 2013 at 1:07:30 am

They are also offering 2 year lockins for a low price and some very low team subscriptions.
They are going bonkers to meet the numbers even if they dont make money. Isnt this crazy how a ceo can drive a company into the earth. At this rate by october they will be offering us money to subscrib or maybe a free ipad. I will never join the perpetual unless a perpetual is offered or a free 25 year subscripion. (meaning 10 years into my retirement)


Ricardo


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Paul King
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 28, 2013 at 11:29:08 am

Generally no, if you are talking about a momentary outage. If a call is dropped or I fail to get a text or voicemail message due to a system "glitch" (a "bug" if you like), then that's typically covered in the fine print. If it becomes egregious, that's a different story. But, usually you are just SOL.

But... Software bugs and complete system failures are hardly equal.


So a multicam bug that persists for a number of months would not be significant defect that would require a make good from the service provider?
This is not a momentary outage. Also the vender did not come clean that there was a fault when the customer subscribed.

I think it depends on the reasons the customer joined the service. I don't text so I dont care about a service fault where I cant text. However to someone else there may be a real issue paying for a service for months where they can not text. That customer should, at least not be paying for price for the months they can not text.



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Oliver Peters
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 28, 2013 at 3:47:05 pm

[Paul King] "So a multicam bug that persists for a number of months would not be significant defect that would require a make good from the service provider?"

Unknown. Phone and cable operations are not good service analogies, though, because the service you use is the carriage of the signal. The phone itself - and associated software - is an "add-on" to make the service functional for you. CC doesn't really fit that model. You might check and see how these issues have been applied in other software-service vendors, like Oracle or SAP.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Kenny
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 28, 2013 at 7:14:01 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Unknown. Phone and cable operations are not good service analogies, though, because the service you use is the carriage of the signal. The phone itself - and associated software - is an "add-on" to make the service functional for you. CC doesn't really fit that model. You might check and see how these issues have been applied in other software-service vendors, like Oracle or SAP."

Most cable providers (at least in the US) continue to own the cable box the user is supplied with, and if the failure of that box took your cable down for a week, they likely would credit you for a week of service despite the fact that the signal over the line coming into your home was still fine. This seems fairly analogous to e.g. a buggy update taking a customer's Creative Cloud apps down for a while.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Oliver Peters
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 28, 2013 at 8:46:43 pm

[Chris Kenny] "and if the failure of that box took your cable down for a week, they likely would credit you for a week of service despite the fact that the signal over the line coming into your home was still fine. "

The operative word is "likely". Do you actually have personal experience with that? My cable provider down here has you bring in the box to a service center and replaces it, or sends out a technician. If the line is good to the house, you wouldn't be without service for a week.

Now extend that to your smart phone on contract. What happens there?

My point is that the analogy has no direct relevance.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Paul King
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 28, 2013 at 11:59:14 pm

The relevance is service provision.

Either my service is working correctly or it's not.
You're saying there is no relevance because you dont have direct experience with a case that matches, doesn't mean there isn't one.

We bought a Myob upgrade which included 12 months support. We phoned them one three occasions and left a message fr a call back, which they never did.

So we complained that we didn't get the service and they credited back a third of the total cost for the year.

There is a major software bug in their latest version that's so bad, customers are not paying to use it.

Is this a good enough analogy?



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Oliver Peters
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 29, 2013 at 12:04:25 am

[Paul King] "Is this a good enough analogy?"

Yes, better. But you were specifically paying for support. Not sure how that plays out with Adobe nor what the fine print is. For example, is there a clause about "no implied warranties" for suitability?

In any case, feel free to complain to Adobe and let us know if you get your money back.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Paul King
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 29, 2013 at 5:48:00 am

Support is a service. I bought Myob, I bought the upgrade but I rented the support in advance, which they failed to provide.

It's a different market here in Australia. Adobe can not clause they way out of basic responsibilities for a product working as advertised.
So my original question was whether basic consumer rights were different for rental vs purchase in the US?

Another point, I can not understand anyone here arguing that Adobe should be able to get the user to waive all rights relating to their product working correctly. They may be able to d that under US law, however what rational argument is there for them to be able to do this?



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Walter Soyka
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 29, 2013 at 11:01:00 am

Paul, I honestly don't understand your point here. Your argument seems to be that no software anybody pays for should ever have any bugs.

While that is an admirable goal, it just doesn't reflect reality. I don't know of any bug-free post-production software, including software from all four As and dozens of smaller developers as well. Bug-free software would mean very high prices and very limited scope -- probably more appropriate in a hospital than an edit suite.

As far as consumer protection goes, there's certainly a bit of caveat emptor with software. On the other hand, I couldn't do a 30-day free automobile trial to make sure my next car would work well for me.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Paul King
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 29, 2013 at 1:59:28 pm

My point:

If Adobe thinks their software is now so good they can convert to a rental model then they have to deliver that service. If I can buy software then I will accept there are some bugs. If I have to rent the software without the option to buy, then that's a service and I shouldn't be paying them when they don't deliver that service.

Here's an example:

Premiere Pro CS6 can not do a simple dissolve with the mercury engine GPU enabled. Adobe released the software knowing this was a bug in CS5, then in CS5.5 and again in CS6. Every video editor out there can do this, it's a basic requirement for an editor.

Test it yourself. Place a black video on V1. Put a title over the top in V2 and add a dissolve at the beginning. Park the CTI on the second frame of the dissolve. Turn the mercury engine from CPU to GPU and back again, and have a look at the difference in level.

Dissolves are not linear with the GPU on. Adobe told customers to go out and purchase expensive graphics cards for Premiere, without warning of this bug. This is not good enough for purchased software, let alone the service provision of rental.

It's one thing to have a bug, but to ignore it release after release is unacceptable.



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Rich Rubasch
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 29, 2013 at 5:40:06 pm

I had an AT&T DSL account years ago and I never felt like I was getting the speeds they promised....I did nothing. Several years later I got mail saying there was a class action suit against AT&T about that service....I opted in.

About a year and a half later I got a check from AT&T for $65 to cover the loss of speed, pro-rated from that time.

Amazed me that I actually got a check!

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Todd Kopriva
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 30, 2013 at 1:56:26 am

> Dissolves are not linear with the GPU on. Adobe told customers to go out and purchase expensive graphics cards for Premiere, without warning of this bug.


The default for rendering on the GPU is to blend colors in a linear color space, whereas the default on the CPU is to blend colors in a non-linear color space, which makes the results different. This is not considered a bug. It is by design.

IMPORTANT: I am not defending this design.

(Sorry for the bold and italics there, but I wanted to make sure that that was clear.)

When I was working on the Premiere Pro team, I was sure to include the explanation of what's happening in this area in my writeup of exactly how the GPU processing works.

Here's the relevant part:
"When rendering is done on the CPU with Maximum Render Quality enabled, processing is done in a linear color space (i.e., gamma = 1.0) at 32 bits per channel (bpc), which results in more realistic results, finer gradations in color, and better results for midtones. GPU-accelerated processing is always performed in a 32-bpc linear color space. To have results match between CPU rendering and GPU rendering, enable Maximum Render Quality."

Now, the problem with this design is that most people are used to having color operations being performed in a non-linear color space, as happens with the CPU when Maximum Render Quality is off.

So, what's the upshot? Since making this work in a more predictable way (or, put a different way, making this work as most people are used to) is a change in a feature design, you should make a feature request:
http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

I would certainly support that feature request, and I've cast my vote.

What's my point with all of this? I wanted to make sure that everyone knew that the Premiere Pro team is not ignoring a bug, as Paul put it. Rather, there's a place for reasonable people to disagree about a feature design decision, and so far the folks making the decisions for Premiere Pro haven't heard enough feedback about this one to change their minds.

Also, I wanted to make sure that folks knew that there's a checkbox that makes the CPU and GPU match in this area.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Paul King
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 30, 2013 at 2:40:12 am

Hi Todd

Are we talking about the check box in sequence settings?
This is for rendering only, not for playback. However I retested with it on and rendered out the sequence and got the same result.

Putting aside the explanation of why a dissolve is not linear, a dissolve is not linear. It cuts from 0% to 20% and then continues to 100%. Who designed this? Why would you design this? Who would want this?
This is not a design feature in any sense. This occurred because Adobe ran out of time in the CS5 beta to fix it. When there wasn't an outcry, they swept it aside and didn't fix it. It's just like soft DVEs, interlacing issues in the SDK (problem for the Sapphire guys) and other lingering issues that never get fixed. These are things editing software should do by default from release.

Premiere Pro is an editor that uses a graphics card. When it does a basic dissolve does not playback or render correctly. I couldn't see anything in the notes for Premiere Pro warning customers that Premiere may not perform correctly with a qualified GPU card.

Premiere is an editor, one of the only ones left. Why would Adobe leave it to a vote as to whether or not a basic feature like a dissolve works correctly.

I stand by my comment that Adobe ignored this issue. It has been raised in the beta since CS5 and no one from Adobe even acknowledged the bug. It was raised again in 5.5 and also in CS6. Dave Hemley completely ignored this issue until someone else pointed out it was an Adobe fault.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 30, 2013 at 2:50:37 pm

There are two places to enable or disable Maxium Render Quality—in the sequence settings and in the export settings. The sequence setting only applies to preview renders; the export setting (which defaults to the sequence setting) overrides the sequence setting.

Regarding why this occurs: (First, recall that I said that I'm not defending this decision.) The decision was made to have the GPU perform color blending operations in a linear color space, which is more physically realistic. Unfortunately, many people are accustomed to color operations being performed in a non-linear, gamma-adjusted color space, so this more realistic option looks wrong to them. I think that the real problem is that the default setting for the CPU doesn't match the GPU, and that is obviously confusing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 30, 2013 at 3:29:58 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "The decision was made to have the GPU perform color blending operations in a linear color space, which is more physically realistic. Unfortunately, many people are accustomed to color operations being performed in a non-linear, gamma-adjusted color space, so this more realistic option looks wrong to them. I think that the real problem is that the default setting for the CPU doesn't match the GPU, and that is obviously confusing."


Sweet. I just learned something. Thanks!

-dl


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Ridley Walker
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 30, 2013 at 4:32:36 pm

Always good to hear from Todd, I learn something from every post.


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Paul King
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 31, 2013 at 12:23:47 am

What did you learn?
That if you have issues with CUDA and turn off GPU, your edit will look different?

If this was a decision then it's a very bad one.

Avid uses openGL for GPU based effects and there are absolutely no issues or caveats to the visual quality of it's output. Avid's customers populate Hollywood so they cant afford to have these kinds of issues from version to version.


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Ridley Walker
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 31, 2013 at 4:37:48 pm

[Paul King] "What did you learn?"

Well, from Todd I learned how the applications handles cross dissolves using CPU and GPU. From your posts I've learned that you're rabid about this issue.


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Paul King
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 31, 2013 at 11:38:53 pm

Yes I am, I can not work properly and when I edit with a client next to me, the ask why the dissolves look wrong. I raised this in three betas and didn't get this explanation.

Todd didn't explain anything about the issue itself. He didn't address the issue that dissolves dont work and the color space technical explanation is not a reason for dissolves that cut from 0 - 20%. I would understand if they looked stepped all the way, but as they are it's a bug, not a feature.

I have an alternative explanation. Adobe built the Mercury Engine and made it work with CUDA. They discovered quality issues when utilizing the GPU. Not enough users complained about it so they thought hey, lets not worry about it until the user base does.

I understand features being set by popular vote but not bugs, and that's what this is - A BUG.


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Paul King
Re: CC is now a service
on Jul 31, 2013 at 12:19:10 am

Todd I dont think this answers the issue.
I'm not talking about a visible color space issue or the result when exporting. The issue is exhibited during playback or before and after rendering. It's there no matter what.
The fault is that a dissolve doesn't work correctly.
I used the word 'linear' to refer to the nature of the dissolve.

Fade up a title over a black video.
The first frame of the title dissolve is black, the second frame jumps to 20%. It's not a smooth transition from transparency to full opacity. There's nothing accurate about this, regardless of the color space being implemented and it's not about a discrepancy between GPU and CPU. CPU is a smooth dissolve and GPU is not.

Maybe this is why the issue has not been fixed since CUDA was implemented.
This is a similar issue to the gamma shift caused by GPU, seen when there is grey in an alpha channel - a soft drop shadow on a title.
Is CS6 this was fudged by turning CUDA on (yellow bar) for all titles.


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