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Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.

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Dustin Lawhorn
Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 25, 2013 at 11:33:12 pm

I wanted to post something from the Video Copilot forums that got my attention. Read it below or go to (this link):

Re: Purchase After Effects CC permanently without subscription?
by Todd_Kopriva on 07/25/2013, 11:00 am
We have _far_ more people using After Effects under this new system then we ever had before. This is largely because now far more people can afford it, because they don't need to come up with several hundreds (or even thousands) of dollars before they can buy it.

We have many reasons for changing to this new way, and one of them is to make it easier for people without a lot of money to use our tools.

There are other reasons for the new way, too, including details of accounting regulations that prohibited us in the past from releasing new features without charging extra for them. We'll be releasing several new features (plus many fixes) this fall, and anyone with a subscription will have access to them. In the past, we'd have to charge extra for such an upgrade.

I know that not everyone likes this new system. I won't argue with that. But a very, very large number of people do like it, and all indications so far are that the net result is that we're satisfying more people. (We are also looking into ways to tweak things to satisfy the folks who are currently unsatisfied, but I can't comment further on that right now.)

___END of post____


I realize that Todd is not part of the PR sector of Adobe, but, I really want to know what the company is thinking right now. So, my responses really have nothing to do with Todd or the great work that he does; but, rather more about the logic of Adobe’s actions.

I only count 2 reasons (for changing to a subscription model) given in the post (above).

“easier for people without a lot of money to use the tools.”

= Hogwash... they wind up paying more in the end. No other way around it. The math just doesn’t support it. Updating every 2 years was costing $1,000; but, on the subscription I would be paying $1,200 for the same thing. If I waited to update every 3 years, I would have saved $800. If Adobe wanted to be “easier for people without a lot of money to use the tools,” why not just initiate a payment plan for those people that only want to pay $XX.00 per month?

“releasing new features without charging extra for them.”

= Shaky logic, but I’m willing to listen to any support that can be given in this arena. It appears that he’s saying new features that would normally be in a new release (.5 or next version) will come down the pipes faster. But, other improvements (like bug fixes and so forth) were supposed to be in the “Adobe Updater” application anyway, right? Therefore, it’s not part of the support to the “extra features” arguments. This reason alone is not worth the extra money that I have to spend on the product.

So, only 2 reasons given in the post and it feels more like “snake oil” than before.
The big issues of “subscriptions vs. perpetual license” and “accessibility” are still being dismissed. [However, I’m wondering if the “looking into ways to tweak things to satisfy folks...” part of the post is about those very issues. I’m cautiously optimistic...]

That’s what I wanted to draw attention to in this thread.

______________

Now, I’m going on a bit of a philosophical rant just to get thoughts out of my head. Feel free to tune me out by not reading any further.

______Begin Bombastic Extravagant Speech______

“Subscriptions vs. perpetual licenses”:
I’ve read a lot of “renting your tools” illustrations being kicked around the internet (actually, I wrote one). I’ve given this a lot of thought. Honestly, I can’t think of *any* artist that rents paintbrushes. Can you? I don’t know any carpenters that rent hammers, lumberjacks that rent axes, guitarists that rent guitars--well, I do know some guys who “Borrow” guitars before purchasing them, but, i digress--- or, doctors that rent stethoscopes, and so on. Granted, sometimes I rent cameras; but, that is for a set purpose with the knowledge that I might never get to use it again. (It’s tied to a specific purpose or goal).

I remember some places renting Avid systems for a while. But that was pretty early on when Avid systems were locked to the hardware and it was insanely expensive to get the machines. Economically, buying your own machine was a huge investment then. Those days are gone.

“Files taken hostage”:
Joe pointed out to me (in the great “Thanks Adobe” thread) that it’s really about access. So, really, the subscription model is like having to rent the key to my own car. My car sits in my carport, I’ve done all I can to maintain it, I’ve even set aside space on my property for it to reside, but I have to rent a key to use it? Once I get the key I can take that car anywhere I want. Maybe I need to take a friend to the airport or go shopping. As long as I have the keys, my options are completely open to me.

So I ask this, what good is an .aep file that is on my computer or in my possession, if I can’t open it? If I have to pay someone to open that file, it’s akin to renting a key to my car. Sure, I have possession of the files, they are even conveniently located according to my needs, but Adobe owns access to them! If I’ve payed for the keys that month, I can go anywhere for any purpose my friends (my clients) need. Well, the illustration quickly gets silly, doesn’t it? No one rents the keys for their car. They rent the car not the keys. We should be asking Adobe to offer the option to own the key (by paying a one-time lump sum for that rental) along with the option they are forcing upon us (permanent subscription / rentals for the rest of our lives). Give us a choice.

“Accessibility”:
We all know that the EULA says that we don’t really OWN the software--we get it. But, at least with perpetual licenses we can get in the software whenever we want and take the project to whatever destination we need at that time. That’s accessibility.

Now there is another thing to acknowledge with that silly car illustration. People do lease their cars, or own them outright, or make monthly payments. Yes, you can rent cars for the day, week, month, or whatever. But these concepts breach the issues of “ownership” and “payment plans towards the value” of the car. Even if you have the car, and are making payments on it, it is with the goal of one day finishing the payments on that car. At the end of that period, you own the car--the keys are free (unless you lose them).

Of course, if you are simply renting the car (keys included), you will perpetually be paying for access to the car and you understand that from the moment you start using it. In rental arrangements, you are less likely to make permanent arrangements involving the use of that rented item for future obligations. If I have to rent my software, I’m less likely to use it for any long term projects. Why? Because renting implies that there is a mutable “fair market value” to the thing being rented or that the prices are subject to change. Rental prices benefit the owner not the consumer.

I guess I’m confused, the “cloud” was originally marketed as a way to access program settings and user preferences anywhere on any machine. That seemed to be saying “it’ll be more accessible.” I was interested in that. But, blocking access to the program when I opt out of the subscription (thus leaving my project files useless) says the very opposite of “access.” Those files are literally inaccessible. I'd like to think that there is model that could still grant accessibility, why am I not seeing it?

____End Bombastic Extravagant Speech____

-dl


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 12:13:01 am

So I'm getting into Digital Signage. If a client has 10 locations or 10 monitors to set up I have to provide 10 players, but they all read from the same media and play the same playlist. To make the entry into digital signage easier I am charging a monthly fee per monitor. Then I charge for updates during the month and send one bill each month. It might only be a few hundred dollars, certainly under $1000. But at $500 per digital signage unit I would need to send an invoice for $5000 in the first month....I've found most clients sort of shy away from the huge up front cost.

I would make my money back on the boxes in about 8 months, in addition to the work we do building new graphics, sequences etc, and I am only billing them about $500-$800 per month. Average of $7200 per year and I've more than made back the cost of the gear, and year two is all pretty good net profit on the monthly.

No one has balked at this yet and it is a good way for smaller operations to get into simple digital signage.

So there is something to be said for what Adobe might be thinking about the subscription model by taking the sting off an outlay of more than $1000 for software up front, perhaps not even knowing if they will make anything from the purchase or if they like it.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:39:59 pm

Okay. Adobe is not a small operation getting into this--we all know that. I definitely see where the “new user” might be getting something worth checking into. If I were a new user, I’d go the monthly route until I know that it works for me. During that testing period, I’d be looking for ways to protect my exit strategy. What happens when/if I discontinue? I don’t see one for CC.

FCP vs. FCPX. Simple. I kept my FCP7 install discs. The projects & media were put on backup drives. No big deal. Worst case scenario, I can reinstall and go from there. I have the legacy version to install and I know that it worked when I backed up.

But what’s the exit strategy when it’s subscription based? No legacy versions of the software to install. And backwards compatibility is never without problems. If I don’t have the legacy version of the software, the project will need to be “converted to” the new version. Then, I’ve got nothing to roll back to if it all goes horribly wrong. I get weird problems when I open stuff from CS3 in CS6. At least I have the legacy versions of those install discs! What happens in CC?

Don’t get me wrong... I understand SaaS models. What I don’t get is how CC is SaaS. They took CS and repackaged it as CC. Where is my software? Still on my computer. Where is the rendering? Still here. Where is Encore? CS6. The only thing clearly SaaS about CC right now is the fact that I can’t have a legacy version of it. I can get 20 GB of cloud space if I’m willing to pay for that too. Sweet! Wait, that’s only 20 minutes of footage and dependent upon internet connection speeds. So what else is there?
Here’s what it says on Adobe.com FAQ: “With Creative Cloud, your entire creative world gets its own central dashboard to keep your ideas, files, fonts, settings, notifications, desktop applications, and team members in sync.” In other words, I can move my user preferences with me to any computer--cool. But not worth $200 to me... yet.

Exactly why should I pay more for CC again?

-dl


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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 11:15:32 pm

[Dustin Lawhorn] "But what’s the exit strategy when it’s subscription based?"

Exporting to an interchange format like EDL/XML/AAF, re-subscribing, or renting by the month in the future if you need to re-visit an old project.

I know this may not be ideal. I'm just trying to answer the question.


[Dustin Lawhorn] "What I don’t get is how CC is SaaS. They took CS and repackaged it as CC."

I'm not sure that CC is SaaS. I think it's a hybrid offering of integrated products and services.

When CS first launched, they took the individual products and repackaged them as CS. It took a couple releases before CS started showing real cross-product integration. CS represented a shift in philosophy for development from what came before, and it took some time and effort to get it off the ground.

I imagine that it will be similar with CC. The first release does look pretty much like a simple repackage, with just a couple Cloud features that don't sound all that earth-shattering, but if you read the Creative Cloud open letter [link], you will get a sense of the kinds of challenges Adobe hopes to be able to address with CC.

Personally, I'm excited to see the tools embrace connectivity. Collaboration and mobility are problems that you cannot tackle entirely on isolated desktops. I know the subscription model is unpopular on this forum, but I do think that blending services and products is a really promising platform for all kinds of new features.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 12:10:03 am

[Walter Soyka] "Personally, I'm excited to see the tools embrace connectivity. Collaboration and mobility are problems that you cannot tackle entirely on isolated desktops. I know the subscription model is unpopular on this forum, but I do think that blending services and products is a really promising platform for all kinds of new features.
"


Yep. I too am optimistic about this. I hope Dynamic Linking doesn't go wonky in the process. I've actually been doing some things with my iPad when editing or using After Effects using KeyPad Plus to basically add a lot of the shortcuts that I use into a simple button interface. I've found that I does help me work faster. So, I imagine that Adobe might be thinking of ways of doing the same things.

(I won't touch the subscription model at this time-it's kind of a hot button issue for me and might lead to long rants) ;)

-dl


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 2:07:04 am

I can't and won't argue opinions, but I can state facts.

“easier for people without a lot of money to use the tools.”

= Hogwash... they wind up paying more in the end.


You can make comparisons that go either direction, depending on how frequently the person would have upgraded their perpetual license.

... but my actual point in the section that you quoted was that the upfront cost of entry is far, far less, and that matters to a vast number of people. It might not matter to you, for which I congratulate you, but the overall number of people who can clear the initial cost barrier is now far greater than it was before.

We're seeing the results already, with a huge increase in the number of people using tools like After Effects. As someone whose career it is to help people to make art with After Effects, this means that I am happy because I'm now serving far more people.

> “releasing new features without charging extra for them.”

= Shaky logic, but I’m willing to listen to any support that can be given in this arena


I've explained this several times on the Creative COW forums already, but here's the summary:

US law and accounting regulations that are consequences of those laws make it so that we were previously very strictly prohibited from releasing features for a product for which you had already paid in full. Our accounting and legal counsel made it very clear to us that deviating from this policy would have severely bad consequences related to reporting revenue. Basically, doing so would have made our previous reports of recognized revenue false, making us need to "restate our revenue" after the fact (which is a very bad thing for a publicly traded company to do, since it makes people think that you were engaged in fraud or similar badness).

Because with a subscription you aren't paying for a set good---rather, you're paying for a service to access whatever we've made up until that time---the rules are different.

I've worked on After Effects and Premiere Pro for a long time, and I can tell you for a fact that for many years, we were strictly forbidden from adding new features in free updates. And I can also tell you for a fact that we just did it in Premiere Pro, Prelude, and SpeedGrade, in the updates that have come out this month. And we're soon going to do it for After Effects.

On a related note, the new model now makes it OK for me to tell you about new features and give you estimates of new release dates. Under the old system, doing so would again have triggered a restatement of revenues because telling you what was coming in a new version would trigger some regulations in Sarbanes-Oxley regarding charging in full for works in progress. So, I could never before have done this: I'm telling you that we're targeting a release for September (if all goes well) that will add several GPUs (including those in the recent iMacs) to the whitelist for CUDA acceleration, as well as adding a preference to bypass that whitelist and use untested/unsupported GPUs, plus an improved OptiX library that makes the ray-traced 3D renderer much faster.

If you don't want to believe me, I can't make you. I can just say again that as someone who makes software and wants to give the greatest value to the greatest number of people, this has taken the chains off of us, and we are happily and freely doing the work that we've wanted to do for a long time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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David Smith
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 6:54:45 am

How difficult would it be, with exactly the new model you described above, to also take versions of all the software, with features and updates where they are at, and freeze it in time once every say 18 months or so, package it up, and sell it with a perpetual license?


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David Lawrence
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 8:17:22 am

[David Smith] "How difficult would it be, with exactly the new model you described above, to also take versions of all the software, with features and updates where they are at, and freeze it in time once every say 18 months or so, package it up, and sell it with a perpetual license?"

Yes, there doesn't seem to be any technical or legal reason why this shouldn't be possible. When CC was first announced, I was under the impression this is how it would work. CC subscribers get new features as soon as they're ready throughout the year, perpetual owners have to wait to catch up and can only upgrade every annual cycle with a newly named release. Similar arrangements seem to work well for other companies like Autodesk and The Foundry. Why not Adobe?

_______________________
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Mark Dobson
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:38:16 am

Here is the UK there is currently a debate going on about loan companies are. Sure they operate within the law but how ethical is their business model.

The justification for the rates they charge for loaning money is very similar to the premiss that Todd Kopriva puts forward

"We have many reasons for changing to this new way, and one of them is to make it easier for people without a lot of money to use our tools."

This is not a good argument in support of Adobe CC because as Dustin Lawhorn points out these people 'without a lot of money' will clearly end up paying more over the years.

I also take issue with Todd's next argument justifying the subscription model:


[Todd Kopriva] "US law and accounting regulations that are consequences of those laws make it so that we were previously very strictly prohibited from releasing features for a product for which you had already paid in full. Our accounting and legal counsel made it very clear to us that deviating from this policy would have severely bad consequences related to reporting revenue. Basically, doing so would have made our previous reports of recognized revenue false, making us need to "restate our revenue" after the fact (which is a very bad thing for a publicly traded company to do, since it makes people think that you were engaged in fraud or similar badness).

Because with a subscription you aren't paying for a set good---rather, you're paying for a service to access whatever we've made up until that time---the rules are different. "


So let's look at this in the light of the copies of FCPX, Compressor and Motion that I bought over 2 years ago. All of these applications have received substantial updates, new features and bug fixes in this period and I've not heard of Apple getting involved in 'severely bad consequences related to reporting revenue'

Surely the plain truth is that Adobe have adopted this business model to stabilise their bottom line, keep their investors happy and release themselves from the pressures of having to substantially update their product range on a regular basis.

Now all this makes sound capitalist sense but lets not pretend that this has been designed to help those less well off.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 11:17:04 am

[Mark Dobson] "This is not a good argument in support of Adobe CC because as Dustin Lawhorn points out these people 'without a lot of money' will clearly end up paying more over the years."

Paying more later strikes me as a valid trade-off for paying absolutely nothing upfront. This is why regular people take out mortgages to buy their homes rather than paying all cash, which only the truly rich can afford.


[Mark Dobson] "So let's look at this in the light of the copies of FCPX, Compressor and Motion that I bought over 2 years ago. All of these applications have received substantial updates, new features and bug fixes in this period and I've not heard of Apple getting involved in 'severely bad consequences related to reporting revenue' "

Of course, I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant -- but I think you only "get in hot water" if you have to restate revenue you've already booked. You also have the option of not recognizing revenue in the quarter in which it was received, waiting to book it until the last feature is delivered. However, deferring piles of revenue is surely painful to a business.

Apple has charged for iOS updates and laptop firmware updates, citing SOX. The ProApps, though, are products that are critical to their business. I think they can afford to defer FCPX revenue indefinitely since it is not.

Adobe could never do that with Creative Suite because it's too important to their core business.

In other words, I don't think it's that Apple has "gotten around" it -- I think they're complying by taking revenue deferral on the chin for a tiny fraction of their business, which no company could reasonably do with its primary product.


[Mark Dobson] "Surely the plain truth is that Adobe have adopted this business model to stabilise their bottom line, keep their investors happy and release themselves from the pressures of having to substantially update their product range on a regular basis."

Please note that Adobe is not alone here. Autodesk is careful to comply, and Avid might be in a heap of trouble for being maybe a bit less careful. As I noted above, Apple is also careful to comply in more revenue-critical areas.

Also, I have a lot of faith in the Adobe product teams and I suspect we'll be seeing more updates, not less. Don't forget there's another side to this: with subscription, they have to keep subscribers happy lest they lose them.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mark Dobson
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 12:13:33 pm

Walter,

It's great that so many people are sticking up for Adobes new business model. It's only us few rusty nails that can't come to terms with it.

I think it is inherently unsound as a business proposition.

I deferred on point of purchase because I really disagree with paying for something that will never belong to my business. It's not only the actual possession of the software that concerns me but the lack of control over using it in the future should I decide to opt out of the CC. And in this over regulated world I really don't want to have to get permission once a month to continue using a software suite.

I'm currently buying a Canon C300 on a lease purchase deal. It's quite a large purchase for our small company but In 6 months time approximately we will own the camera outright. During the purchase period it has payed for itself in terms of how many times we have used it and once we have completed the purchase it will start generating profit for many years to come.

I could say the same for the computers and other software we have bought, or for the estate car we use to go out filming in. We own all these items and they all contribute to enabling us to make a living.

And that is really a big deal. That a small company can actually own Broadcast Specification equipment outright is truly liberating. What that means is that everything we earn, after we have payed tax, we get to keep. This would have been unthinkable even a few years back. And that's a good feeling and it also means that if we have a flat period we don't have too many commitments to keep up, life is easier. ( apart from the mortgage, phone bill, business rates and corporation tax! )

So I'm personally not going sign up for a deal that means I never get to own essential tools of my trade. I'm going to look elsewhere and encourage others to do the same.

And if enough people did opt out you can bet that Adobe will switch back to a more customer focused business model.

You say you have a lot of faith in the Adobe product teams and I'm sure that is well justified. Adobe employ some of the best software engineers in the business, with a lot of integrity and creativity and they make superb software, and you are right to say that if they stop doing this the wheel's will fall off their wagon.

Since FCPX was launched there has always been this feeling that there is a viable alternative option should I get totally frustrated with it. Well that has now disappeared for me with the launch of this subscription based offering from Adobe.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 1:20:28 pm

Mark, although I've made a different decision for myself, I certainly respect your thinking.

While I agree that CC is good for Adobe, I don't think that's mutually exclusive with being customer-focused. CC does have some really clear benefits today, and as I think that with a services component, CC could have some unique benefits around the challenges of collaboration and mobility as it develops in the coming years.

That's not to say it's all roses! I certainly acknowledge the downsides that are very good reasons for not wanting subscription.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Ridley Walker
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 12:54:38 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Paying more later strikes me as a valid trade-off for paying absolutely nothing upfront. This is why regular people take out mortgages to buy their homes rather than paying all cash, which only the truly rich can afford.
"


One can pay off a mortgage and own the property, renting is for life.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 1:16:47 pm

[Ridley Walker] "One can pay off a mortgage and own the property, renting is for life."

True! I should have compared renting a home versus buying one with cash.

Comparisons of software to physical goods or tools usually seem to fail in my thinking because software tools require updates for continuing practical usefulness. I could still use my grandfather's pliers, but owning a license for CS4 does me very little good in 2013.

In my mind, the practical difference between renting and continually buying updates is small. I acknowledge that the ideological and emotional differences are big.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 1:59:56 pm

Walter's interpretation of Apple choosing to defer revenue on the sale of their pro apps (which are a minuscule fraction of their revenue) is the common interpretation... though I certainly can't claim to speak for Apple.

His comment about Avid is also relevant.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Aug 14, 2013 at 1:57:11 am

Here is a very relevant story about Avid that gives context for our extreme caution in releasing feature-bearing updates for perpetually licensed software:
http://blog.devoncroft.com/2013/08/13/avid-delays-filing-of-q2-2013-financi...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Aug 14, 2013 at 10:27:31 am

...showing, that this CashCow Distribution thing is more an advantage for Adobe (to keep it´s profits better than Avid) than to it´s customers.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Aug 14, 2013 at 1:12:35 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Here is a very relevant story about Avid that gives context for our extreme caution in releasing feature-bearing updates for perpetually licensed software:"

Todd - this issue only applies to unpaid feature updates, not the normal yearly update cycle.

While it is a nice feature that Cloud subscription makes feature updates available quicker, I don't think users where ranking "faster feature updates" as their highest priority, not as their second highest or third highest priority. I for one would be quite happy to go back to waiting for my yearly paid feature upgrades if it meant I could get a perpetual license.

Furthermore, as a user, I really don't care about any vendors regulatory paperwork burden. It's part of everyone's business, mine included.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 1:54:54 pm

> How difficult would it be, with exactly the new model you described above, to also take versions of all the software, with features and updates where they are at, and freeze it in time once every say 18 months or so, package it up, and sell it with a perpetual license?


It would require us to maintain multiple aspects of everything, from development/testing branches to sales/marketing campaigns to support services. Note that we were already trying to do both since CS5.5, when we first introduced subscriptions. The significant inefficiencies both slowed us down and added confusion (both outside and inside the company).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 2:33:55 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "It would require us to maintain multiple aspects of everything, from development/testing branches to sales/marketing campaigns to support services. Note that we were already trying to do both since CS5.5, when we first introduced subscriptions. The significant inefficiencies both slowed us down and added confusion (both outside and inside the company)."

That is a faulty comparison.

With CS5.5 you were still in development mode for CS6. At this point there is no CS development being asked for.

The exact same download a CC user gets with subscription is all that is necessary. Sales/Marketing would be unnecessary, since you would be providing this as a service to one time subscribers, not selling this as a separate product. You could make it clear that no further upgrades would be provided to account for new codecs or changes in various operating systems or hardware upgrades. In other words you would be providing these files as is, caveat emptor.

In short there are no, zero costs, to Adobe to do this. No development team necessary. No marketing team needed. Nothing but the will.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 3:33:07 pm

I guess the people at autodesk (i know they have a dark past) are currently much more capable, intelligent pro customer than adobe is now since they do both. Maybe adobe should hire some software people from autodesk.

Ricardo


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 4:21:22 pm

> In other words you would be providing these files as is, caveat emptor.


We would not be willing to support people so poorly as that. If someone buys something from us, we must support them. That's why we provide bug-fix updates, et cetera. That's why we're working on CS6 updates right now. Under the suggested model, we'd need to maintain separate branches for bug fixes versus bug fixes plus feature updates. That duplicated effort (both development and testing) would slow us down in making improvements in the applications. This is not speculation; this is from direct experience of trying to do both and experiencing the significant inefficiencies.

Autodesk was mentioned as an example of a company that is doing both. I'd ask you to look at news from the past few years of that company's condition and consider whether that's really a path that we would choose to follow.


> I have yet to see or hear any evidence or projections which show an increase in the overall AE user base due to the Cloud.


I have. I can't share our internal data, but I can say that we have seen a very large increase in the numbers of people using After Effects.

Again, I am not trying to convince any individual, including you, that the new way is best for them. I am just telling you that it's helping us to deliver more value faster to a much greater number of people than before. Maybe not you, and for that I'm sorry, but that doesn't mean that it's not for many others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 6:04:47 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "We would not be willing to support people so poorly as that."

So as opposed to supporting people poorly Adobe proposes not to support them at all.

[Todd Kopriva] "Under the suggested model, we'd need to maintain separate branches for bug fixes versus bug fixes plus feature updates. That duplicated effort (both development and testing) would slow us down in making improvements in the applications. This is not speculation; this is from direct experience of trying to do both and experiencing the significant inefficiencies."

You don't have any experience in this because you've never tried it. Your experience with CC + CS6 co-development is NOT applicable.

If there is a bug at the time an app is frozen, then it is something that was being lived with anyhow. Unlike CS6, which you are still offering for sale, there is no development required. All that's being asked is that you remove the lock-out function for a given piece of software at a given point in time. Period. You would be doing this as a favor to users who had already been subscribing for a period of time. If the users would be happy to have it as is, why on earth would you be unhappy giving it to them that way?

Well, at least you've dropped that nonsense about marketing costs.

[Todd Kopriva] " I can say that we have seen a very large increase in the numbers of people using After Effects."

Your seeing an increase in new members without subtracting the loss of old users, whose lack of renewals will take place over time. I wish I could do my accounting that way.

[Todd Kopriva] "I am just telling you that it's helping us to deliver more value faster to a much greater number of people than before."

Todd, that is totally disingenuous. Your delivering faster updates to a smaller pool of users who are constantly upgrading. You are delivering absolutely nothing of value to millions of loyal users who have depended on your companies software as the heart of their business for years. Your companies policies have left them in the dust.

(Warning: The following is opinion, not fact.)

The only plausible reason for Adobe's failure to provide a perpetual license to loyal users who are willing to pay for them is the belief, by Adobe, that given any type of competition like that, the Cloud would be a financial failure.

Because Adobe believes most users wouldn't willingly pay for the benefits of Cloud membership if other options were open to them, they have removed those other options.

The Cloud benefits Adobe at the expense of their user base. If they believed in the value of the Cloud they would be happy to get the extra income and avoid the bad publicity. Apparently they do not.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 6:18:18 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The only plausible reason for Adobe's failure to provide a perpetual license to loyal users who are willing to pay for them is the belief, by Adobe, that given any type of competition like that, the Cloud would be a financial failure. "

This. ^

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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 11:54:07 am

Hi Herb

As a former beta tester I can tell you that Adobe had bugs that carried over from one version to the next. They never had enough resources to get everything done for each release, and they still released software knowing that there were bugs (some of them bad).

Look at Premiere CC - BROKEN MULTICAM. Still got released and I bet the team knew about it. With the new model they can now argue that development is ongoing so they didn't need to get it right out of the gate.

Adobe were never concerned with bug fixes for existing releases. Just look at all the update history for the suites, the most you would see is three dot releases. That's because they had already moved on to the next release.

I have seen very little useful support given by Adobe.
Support used to come from resellers who made f..all out of the software but still supported their customer base. Adobe has left them out in the cold too.



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Herbert van der wegen
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 28, 2013 at 1:22:21 am

It can be so simple: find a bug, report the bug, developers fix it in next version or beta version that is freely available to existing paying customers. Sounds logical.

That's how it seems to work with Photoline in my experience since I made the switch from Photoshop. Quite refreshing. I never really saw that with Photoshop, where bugs from PH7 are still not resolved in the newest versions.

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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 7:48:15 pm

[Todd Kopriva] Autodesk was mentioned as an example of a company that is doing both. I'd ask you to look at news from the past few years of that company's condition and consider whether that's really a path that we would choose to follow.

I loved *Edit and Combustion, both of which they discontinued abruptly. I'm beginning to have a sneaky suspicion that they're going to cripple Smoke in the very near future as well. But here's what they're getting right: free 3 year fully functional Academic licenses for students, applicable on everything they make apart from Flame.

My brother has Maya, Mudbox, Smoke and Matchmover on his laptop. It costs him NOTHING.

So perhaps that's a path you guys could choose to follow. By all accounts, the one you're on now is making things worse for the education sector.

Give Photoshop, Illustrator, inDesign and After Effects to the kids for free. Let them use it at home, in school, wherever. Give them access to your cloud for rendering and collaboration, and let them show off their work on Behance, all for free. Then you can be as snarky as you want about Autodesk. But until then, you should probably hold off on the cheap shots.

Best,
Sandeep.


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David Smith
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 7:06:15 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "It would require us to maintain multiple aspects of everything, from development/testing branches to sales/marketing campaigns to support services. Note that we were already trying to do both since CS5.5, when we first introduced subscriptions. The significant inefficiencies both slowed us down and added confusion (both outside and inside the company)."

What I am hearing is that Adobe dropped the perpetual license option to make things easier for themselves more than because doing so would make things better for the customers.

When there was an option last year, I was never confused and neither was anyone I knew. I picked the perpetual license and so did everyone I knew.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 7:25:14 pm

[Todd Kopriva} "It would require us to maintain multiple aspects of everything, from development/testing branches to sales/marketing campaigns to support services. Note that we were already trying to do both since CS5.5, when we first introduced subscriptions. The significant inefficiencies both slowed us down and added confusion (both outside and inside the company)."

[David Smith] "What I am hearing is that Adobe dropped the perpetual license option to make things easier for themselves more than because doing so would make things better for the customers. "

Adobe has finite resources. Any resources spent on bug fixes and testing across multiple branches are resources not spent developing the main branch. That'll slow down updates and new feature development -- not my idea of making things better for us customers.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 7:34:02 pm

[Walter Soyka] " Any resources spent on bug fixes and testing across multiple branches are resources not spent developing the main branch. That'll slow down updates and new feature development -- not my idea of making things better for us customers."

While that was true while they were still developing CS6 along with CC, it is not true for providing an unlocked version for subscribers.

They could announce a lock time, say by January 1 of any given year. Any subscriber who qualifies would get that locked version no matter when he leaves that year. It would be up to the subscriber to deal with any software upgrades that happened after the lock down date and before he cancels his subscription. There would be zero cost to Adobe, zero time spent on development, the only lost time in upgrading would be the responsibility of the subscriber. If there was an upgrade so wonderful that a subscriber couldn't live without it, he would have to keep his subscription going to the following January to get it in his perpetual version.

So where am I going wrong?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:29:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "While that was true while they were still developing CS6 along with CC, it is not true for providing an unlocked version for subscribers... So where am I going wrong?"

The system you're proposing asks Adobe to let paid customers go unsupported. That strikes me as unpalatable.

Consider Premiere Pro CC 7.0, launched with the ugly multi cam bug. 7.0.1 fixed that bug, but it also added new features. Someone in your plan who wasn't on subscription wouldn't get that update, because it's feature-bearing.

That leaves someone on Premiere Pro CC 7.0, software they've ostensibly paid for, in a serious bind. They shouldn't have to pay to have the bug fixed, because the bug shouldn't have been there in the first place. But for Adobe to deliver the multi cam bug fix to these users without also delivering them features they haven't paid for, Adobe would have to run a separate branch for development and testing. That would take resources away from new development.

Would you expect people to stay on subscription, paying for features they don't want, just to get important bug fixes? Then the people here crying "hostage" would add "extortion" to their charges. Would you expect people off subscription to just have to deal with whatever bugs happen to fester in their paid unlocked versions while subscription customers get the fixes? Then Adobe would be a company that doesn't stand behind its products.

A caveat emptor middle ground between perpetual licensing and subscription puts both parties in awkward positions.

By the way, I'm not trying to say here that CC is the optimal solution. I'm trying to explain why I think it is the way it is. I think this has been thought through a lot more than people here assume, and I think that practical solutions to the real downsides of CC are harder than they seem.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:57:12 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Consider Premiere Pro CC 7.0, launched with the ugly multi cam bug. 7.0.1 fixed that bug, but it also added new features. Someone in your plan who wasn't on subscription wouldn't get that update, because it's feature-bearing.

That leaves someone on Premiere Pro CC 7.0, software they've ostensibly paid for, in a serious bind.


This is the only time that they will be in a serious bind because after this year they can pick and choose what version they want to keep. This first year is not typical because it is the first year.

[Walter Soyka] They shouldn't have to pay to have the bug fixed, because the bug shouldn't have been there in the first place. But for Adobe to deliver the multi cam bug fix to these users without also delivering them features they haven't paid for, Adobe would have to run a separate branch for development and testing. That would take resources away from new development.

Would you expect people to stay on subscription, paying for features they don't want, just to get important bug fixes?"


Yes, that's what people are begging for.

[Walter Soyka] "Then the people here crying "hostage" would add "extortion" to their charges. Would you expect people off subscription to just have to deal with whatever bugs happen to fester in their paid unlocked versions while subscription customers get the fixes?"

Yes, they will know what they are getting when they get their unlocked versions.

[Walter Soyka] " Then Adobe would be a company that doesn't stand behind its products."

Your still treating this as though Adobe were selling these unlocked versions. These unlocked versions are rewards for loyal subscribers and insurance against being locked out of your own software. If I have to pay an additional years subscription to get the version I want, that's not too much to pay for that insurance. This way I have options. I'm not expecting the options to be perfect, I'm just expecting to have some.

I tell you what, let's see Adobe propose something like this and we'll see what the reaction is.

[Walter Soyka] " I think this has been thought through a lot more than people here assume, and I think that practical solutions to the real downsides of CC are harder than they seem."

I think the only things that have been thought thru are the financial consequences to Adobe. I don't even think that's wrong, Adobe's in business to make money, I just can't listen to the company hype.

AS A FURTHER NOTE -

I think this will be taken out of Adobe's hands. I think the financial motivation, due to size of user base + unhappiness with Adobe + cost of software + necessity for business will mobilize third parties to provide "un-lock" capabilities. When this becomes prevalent, anyone will be able to turn their CC subscription into a perpetual license whenever they want. As someone who has never used pirated software for any reason I would be aghast at this practice, but as the man once said - I'm not saying I condone it, but I would understand.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 11:32:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Yes, they will know what they are getting when they get their unlocked versions."

People know what they're getting now with a subscription. That doesn't seem to make it ok.


[Herb Sevush] "Your still treating this as though Adobe were selling these unlocked versions. These unlocked versions are rewards for loyal subscribers and insurance against being locked out of your own software."

Let's say I'm a new customer, and I subscribe for a year then quit. Do I get the Master Collection for $600? Or let's say I subscribe for a decade. Having sent a company $6000 over ten years and gotten something to keep in return, has Adobe really not sold me something?

Personally, I'm all for something like what you're describing -- but I think the problem is legitimately complicated.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 11:45:46 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Personally, I'm all for something like what you're describing -- but I think the problem is legitimately complicated."

I don't think it's anywhere near as complicated as it may seem. We've discussed loyalty buyouts ad-nauseum on this forum. Some say five-years, I say three-years or $3000. There are many possible scenarios that would end the debate overnight. The only thing stoping Adobe from making it happen is senior management's misguided attempt at total customer DRM lock-in. Other software companies have figured it out and I'm sure Adobe can too. Rocket science this is not.

_______________________
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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 12:03:19 am

[David Lawrence] "I don't think it's anywhere near as complicated as it may seem. We've discussed loyalty buyouts ad-nauseum on this forum. Some say five-years, I say three-years or $3000. There are many possible scenarios that would end the debate overnight. The only thing stoping Adobe from making it happen is senior management's misguided attempt at total customer DRM lock-in. Other software companies have figured it out and I'm sure Adobe can too. Rocket science this is not."

I see two possible solutions within this framework:

1) Adobe sells software they cannot support. Legacy customers lose.
2) Adobe splits development resources across branches. Subscription customers lose.

I guess it is simple to solve if Adobe gets ok with one of those consequences.

Again, I'd love to see something like this happen, and I'm not trying to say it's totally unworkable. I just think you're oversimplifying the situation a bit, and a loyalty buyout -- while certainly desirable -- would come along with problems of its own.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 12:13:20 am

[Walter Soyka] "1) Adobe sells software they cannot support. Legacy customers lose."

I think this is a huge overstatement. All it requires is Adobe to flip a bit in the Application manager tied to the user's account information. Technically trivial. And legacy customers like myself would be completely happy because we know what we're getting. Want the latest features? Re-subscribe.

[Walter Soyka] "2) Adobe splits development resources across branches. Subscription customers lose."

I don't think this would really be necessary, but even it it were, I can't believe one of the largest software companies in the world couldn't figure out a way to make it work.

So the only solution is DRM lock-in then? Let's see how well that goes over in the long run.

_______________________
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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 12:40:59 am

[David Lawrence] "I think this is a huge overstatement. All it requires is Adobe to flip a bit in the Application manager tied to the user's account information. Technically trivial. And legacy customers like myself would be completely happy because we know what we're getting. Want the latest features? Re-subscribe.

Technically trivial? Yes. But this isn't just about the latest features. There will either be no bug fixes for customers like you, or there will be multiple development/testing paths. You were upset about Pr CC 7.0 as a a subscription release. Would you have been happier if you had bought that out and didn't get the fixes in 7.0.1? Would you want to see critical bug fixes like that delayed more than that one was because there were more branches to test it against?


[David Lawrence] "I don't think this would really be necessary, but even it it were, I can't believe one of the largest software companies in the world couldn't figure out a way to make it work."

It could absolutely work. That's presumably how companies like Autodesk with perpetual license plus subscription plans work. But spending resources on legacy releases means not spending them on the next main release.

I want to see this problem solved, and maybe one of these solutions will ultimately prove good enough, but there are costs to these solutions, too. We are not a bit flip away from a perfection solution for everyone.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Lawrence
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 1:11:00 am

[Walter Soyka] "You were upset about Pr CC 7.0 as a a subscription release. Would you have been happier if you had bought that out and didn't get the fixes in 7.0.1? "

It wouldn't happen that way. I'd wait until I had thoroughly tested the software and was sure it was stable, bug free and feature complete enough to justify buying out. The point is that the timing is the customer's decision.

A system like this restores the customer to a more equal footing with the vendor and is healthier in the long run for both. The customer has the freedom to leave without penalty. The vendor has added incentive to innovate to keep subscription attractive. With vendor lock-in, customers always lose. Can you think of any industry where vendor lock-in didn't lead to higher prices, lower quality service, and less customer choice? I can't.

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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 11:26:39 am

[David Lawrence] "A system like this restores the customer to a more equal footing with the vendor and is healthier in the long run for both. The customer has the freedom to leave without penalty. The vendor has added incentive to innovate to keep subscription attractive. "

David, I love your idea for how CC could be restructured.

But I do think that you are overstating the practical effects of lock-in on both sides. Interchange is more robust than ever. Adobe has competition to keep them on their toes.


[David Lawrence] "With vendor lock-in, customers always lose. Can you think of any industry where vendor lock-in didn't lead to higher prices, lower quality service, and less customer choice? I can't."

It's funny: in the nineties, lock-in came via proprietary formats, bundled products, and easy upgrade pricing. Everything that you're arguing for from Adobe today was argued against from Microsoft fifteen years ago. (Meanwhile, Apple of all companies has become the new Microsoft!)

I'm really happy with my cell phone company, despite them trying to get me to sign multi-year contracts by offering me a subsidy on my handset. They are constantly re-investing my fees into their infrastructure. My coverage and speed just gets better and better.

We could trade talking points on whether subscription will hurt or help innovation. I think we'll see soon enough either way.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 2:50:02 pm

This argument keeps going back and forth.

In one breath you talk about Adobe's desire to support software they sold.
On the other hand you talk about the drain on resources to do this.
Which is it? Should they be providing bug fixes for software people paid for or not?

It's easy, the application manager does two things - 1. it provides updates (free to all customers) 2. it provides new features (for current subscribers). These two things are completely separate and one does not require the other.

Dont forget, Adobe's history in these matters demonstrates they could release an update that is worse than the software being updated. There are customers they may not want a new feature because the release version doesn't work properly.

Please don't make the assumption that because Adobe releases new features progressively that they will actually work as advertised. Subscribers are just as likely (or more likely) to become paying beta testers as perpetual license holders.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 11:39:47 am

[Paul King] "In one breath you talk about Adobe's desire to support software they sold.
On the other hand you talk about the drain on resources to do this. Which is it? Should they be providing bug fixes for software people paid for or not?"


The question is not "should they provide bug fixes for software people paid for." Of course they should.

The question is should they structure their business in such a way that requires them to split their resources to provide bug fixes for software people paid for.


[Paul King] "It's easy, the application manager does two things - 1. it provides updates (free to all customers) 2. it provides new features (for current subscribers). These two things are completely separate and one does not require the other."

It's not about the delivery mechanism. It's about actually building the software that will be delivered.

Read any of my twelve posts above about how providing updates with fixes plus new features to one set of customers and fixes only to a separate set of customers running the same base product requires different builds and thus multiple branches of development and testing.


[Paul King] "Dont forget, Adobe's history in these matters demonstrates they could release an update that is worse than the software being updated... Please don't make the assumption that because Adobe releases new features progressively that they will actually work as advertised."

Paul, I can't figure out what you want here. Most folks on this forum are upset because they actually like Adobe software and want a different way to get it than what Adobe is offering. I just can't understand what it is that you actually want to see happen.

Do you have any criticism that you can offer constructively, or are you just looking for a place to vent?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 1:48:05 pm

Walter

They already work on multiple versions at the same time, nothing would be different.

When Adobe starts a new cycle, they commence development on the next version. At the same time they are working on updates for the existing version that might require bug fixes.

The argument coming from Todd and yourself ignores the present reality.

I am trying to hold Adobe to account. It's one thing to try and get them to fix software they release, knowing that it's broken already. It's an entirely different matter to do this while they convert their business from being a software vendor to a service provider, when their software does not provide the service it promises.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. I cant remember seeing you in the betas, but your arguments reflect the nature of the compliant testers Adobe wanted to keep around.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 30, 2013 at 1:55:49 am

[Paul King] "They already work on multiple versions at the same time, nothing would be different. When Adobe starts a new cycle, they commence development on the next version. At the same time they are working on updates for the existing version that might require bug fixes. The argument coming from Todd and yourself ignores the present reality."

Let me try one more time. I'm not talking about CS6/CC as multiple branches -- I'm talking about multiple branches within a major release.

This is not a question of perpetual licensing versus subscription. Perpetual licensing had only a single branch within a release, too. It's a question of subscription-only versus subscription plus traditional licensing.

Consider Premiere Pro CC 7.0. The multicam bug was fixed in 7.0.1, but new features were also added. In a system with both subscription customers (who get feature releases) and non-subscription customers (who don't), you need two different builds of 7.0.1: one for CC subscribers with features and bug fixes, and one for legacy customers with bug fixes only. These need to be developed and tested separately, and that's the duplication of effort I'm talking about.

This point is not "ignoring present reality." It's a fact that supporting both license types would require splitting development resources. It's a matter of opinion if that's a good idea or not.

For what it's worth, I wanted perpetual licensing plus subscription. The extra effort necessary to support that never occurred to me.


[Paul King] "I am trying to hold Adobe to account. It's one thing to try and get them to fix software they release, knowing that it's broken already. It's an entirely different matter to do this while they convert their business from being a software vendor to a service provider, when their software does not provide the service it promises."

I don't see any difference between perpetual license and subscription here. Bad bugs are bad bugs in my opinion, no matter how the software is paid for. A product you pay for should work. A service you pay for should work.


[Paul King] "I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. I cant remember seeing you in the betas, but your arguments reflect the nature of the compliant testers Adobe wanted to keep around."

I'm trying to do the same thing I do in every COW forum I participate in: help other users out. I got to stand on the shoulders of giants early in my career because of resources like the COW and the Avid-L. I can't pay it back, so I'm paying it forward.

More specifically to this forum, I'm trying to provide a little balance to the discussion here by sharing my experiences -- positive with CC so far.

It's my opinion that someone on the fence about CC reading through this forum would find an overwhelmingly negative, often extremely emotional, occasionally irrational response. In my experience, that's not what the response to CC has been among the people and agencies I know in real life, but you'd never know that on the Internet.

I totally understand and sympathize with those rejecting CC for ideological reasons, but I think it's still a good practical business decision for myself and a great many others. CC is not right for everyone, but it can be a good, rational choice.

I'm not trying to sell anyone anything -- I'm just trying to help people clearly understand both the pros and cons of CC so they can make their own well-informed decisions. To that end, I think that the forum is better off having both schools of thought represented.

Finally, please don't mistake civility for compliance. I want to see the same thing you do -- better software -- but I don't use the COW for that. I file bug reports on stuff I see that's broken, and I file feature requests on stuff I see that's missing or could be improved.

I'm not here talking about my thoughts on CC out of "compliance." I'm here talking about CC because it's one of the tools I rely on to do my work and run my business, and because I hope others can benefit from my experiences (as I benefit from others') -- the same thing I've been doing here for years.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 2:38:31 pm

As I said earlier Walter, they already sell software they dont support. This is not a valid argument based on the history.

I beta tested for five years so I know what happens behind the scenes.



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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 3:15:33 pm

@Paul -

I have to laugh when you say as a Beta tester you know what happens behind the scenes. You have no idea, other than having a reporting funnel in to the software company. And maybe a rough idea of what the software team wants you to check out. There's no inside track as to the whys and wherefores of any corporate information.

I was a beta tester for Discreet Logic for two versions of Combustion, and all I had was a reporting tool to let the software team know what was wrong or right on my end. There was absolutely no conduit of "inside" information from Discreet as to how the decisions were made, what was important, or why.

Adobe clearly states that they base at least some of their revisions and bug fixes on the number of people reporting them. It makes perfect sense to rely on the user base to weigh the priority of bug fixes and feature additions. Does stuff fall through the cracks? Of course it does - when you've got millions of lines of code, what could any sane person expect? Do features which aren't quite ready for prime-time get rolled into final releases? Yes...but generally those are the first things to get worked on for the first rounds of service packs. Adobe has admitted that multi-cam in PPro CC has been a disaster, and that they're working on it. I think that all we can expect is a clear line of communication that's honest. That's a lot more than that fruit vendor in Cupertino offers...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 3:23:58 pm

And because you were on the Discreet program, you think you know the Adobe one?

There's no inside track as to the whys and wherefores of any corporate information.

You're wrong but this debate is for everyone, ignorant or not.



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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 3:43:35 pm

I know that if Adobe trusted you with any insider information, they were fools, that's for sure. You'll never do any more beta testing for Adobe...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 4:03:08 pm

Same goes for you with Autodesk.



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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 4:16:08 pm

BTW - you should come clean about your impartiality here.
You're thick as thieves with Adobe.



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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 4:48:11 pm

Oh...you cut me to the quick, Paul - I've been outed! Yes...I admit it - I've been earning my living with Adobe tools since the early part of the 1990's. "Thick as Thieves" would imply some sort of compensation from Adobe for my work. I use their products, I pay for their products, and right now I'm on the fence as far as deciding whether I'll go with the CC. I own the CS6 Master Collection, and right now I'm happy right where I am. I'll decide whether to go with CC when I'm good and ready, and negative rants by people who imply that they know something more than everyone else aren't going to influence me.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 6:03:07 pm

that's actually not on. Joe's argued devils advocate both sides on this since it got going - the forum should count itself lucky that the likes of him and walter still turn up to argue the points.

otherwise this turns into a total echo chamber?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 8:23:04 pm

Thanks Aindreas -

You know it's not exactly that I'm trying to argue both sides of the CC debate - it's that I'm trying to get it straight in my head which way I'm going to go when the other shoe drops, and I have to decide to purchase a new workstation which will run CC (I'm currently happily chugging away with CS6 on a Vista 64-bit system), and whether I feel strongly enough about not wanting to buy into (or rent into) the CC model. I have lots of problems with it - which is why I clutch my CS6 Master Collection discs so tightly.

What offends me in the arguments both pro and con here are the people who use totally bogus "facts", toss numbers around that they couldn't have any way of knowing, and pretend to be privy to inside information that even the Adobe VP of Marketing would have a hard time finding out. They also claim to know exactly how they would "fix" a multinational corporation, when they barely know how to run a one-man shop. I'm a one-man shop, and I wouldn't fathom a guess at how Adobe would begin to structure themselves so as to please both sides of this discussion.

That said, here's what I'd like to see (and it's already been sent to the Adobe Featurama site): I'd like to see the CC available as both subscription and permanent license - I don't think that's ever going to happen. In lieu of that, at least divvy up the CC Master Collection into the Production Packs we used to be able to "buy", and offer it as a tiered licensing program, maybe for 29 bucks a month per collection. This would keep the various production sectors humming without the overload many claim the MC to be. I use a lot more of the MC than most, but if I had to choose, I could be really happy with what used to constitute the Production Premium bundle. Then if someone wanted to get access to another single package from the total, maybe an additional 10 bucks a month for each. All told, I'll bet you that it would please a lot of those running around with pitchforks and torches, and end up getting Adobe the same or bigger chunk of change.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 28, 2013 at 11:13:59 am

Again you dont know what you're talking about.

But there's no point me explaining where the information comes from because, based on the way you conduct yourself, it wouldn't make a difference.



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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 28, 2013 at 11:10:01 am

I never felt lucky reading his original reply to me.
This debate is only happening because of the flimsy stance of Adobe, which he was arguing for.

He was totally wrong in his assumptions of how the beta for Adobe was conducted.

I have low tolerance for assumption.



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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 28, 2013 at 5:25:54 pm

No Paul - you have no tolerance for someone who doesn't agree with your bogus assertions, and trumped up rhetoric...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 2:34:36 pm

Walter

There are already bugs in CS6 that have not been fixed. There is no guarantee that they will be fixed and no time frame offered.
So Todd and anyone else can bang on about support, bottom line is Adobe does what they want, not what they should do based on customers paying for software that works as advertised.

There are bugs in Premiere that have been there since V5 and are still not fixed. How is it that Adobe are not in a serious bind over existing issues. They released Premiere CC with the existing multicam bug. They knew about it but released the software anyway.

So no system of rental or purchase makes any difference to the condition of a release of software. It's business as usual - clients paying for bug fixes through software updates.

CS4 - AME was rubbish, a work in progress.
CS5 - MP4 CODEC performance was poor and CUDA bugs were introduced.
CS5.5 - nothing really changed, CUDA bugs still there.
CS6 - some CUDA bugs patched but most remain, AVCHD spanning big introduced.

Anyone who paid Adobe during this period did not get what they paid for and none of these issues were address by bug fixes before the next release.



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David Smith
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 7:35:43 pm

I suppose we just have different ideas about what is better for customers. For me, choices and freedom of how to use and license the software, far out-trump slightly faster updates and new feature development.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:35:17 pm

[David Smith] "I suppose we just have different ideas about what is better for customers. For me, choices and freedom of how to use and license the software, far out-trump slightly faster updates and new feature development."

I agree. This isn't an area of right and wrong. That's why it's so frustrating to me when people talk about how CC in absolutes with these claims that it isn't good for customers. Just because it is not good for you doesn't mean it's not good for me -- and likewise, just because it's good for me doesn't mean it's good for you. We have different needs and different priorities. You can be right to refuse it while I am also right to embrace it.

CC has pros and cons. CS6 and prior had pros and cons, too. They're different offerings, and they may not appeal to the same sets of customers.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 28, 2013 at 11:16:16 am

I haven't seen anyone arguing absolutes here.
No one has come out and said subscription is wrong, only that it should not be the only choice.



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Monte Porche
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 11:48:46 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "It would require us to maintain multiple aspects of everything, from development/testing branches to sales/marketing campaigns to support services.

See, this is the part I can't seem to grasp. Adobe has a team that develops and tests all of the software that is available. Why would they need a completely separate development/testing/marketing/sales department to simply allow me to pay a single price for a permanent license?

To make an analogy, I recently purchased a car from a local dealership. I talked with a salesperson, and we looked at various models. I chose one, and spoke with a guy in the finance department. We agreed on the numbers, and I signed a loan agreement to purchase the car. Now, had I chosen to lease the car instead of buying it, I would have spoken with the same salesperson, and ran the numbers with the same guy in the finance department. The only difference would have been the piece of paper I signed. They didn't have to maintain separate inventory, manpower, and resources to offer both a purchase or a lease......Why does Adobe?


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 12:41:07 am

I didn't say a separate team. But separate efforts, code branches, procedures, test cases, et cetera.

We've been doing both perpetual license and subscriptions for 2-3 years now, so this is not speculation. The added overhead causes large inefficiencies.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Monte Porche
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 2:52:19 am

[Todd Kopriva] "I didn't say a separate team. But separate efforts, code branches, procedures, test cases, et cetera."

But, what requires these separate efforts, code branches, procedures, test cases, etc?

What exactly is it that prevents Adobe from simply adding another few lines to the license and another payment option on the website?

In other words, right now there is a version of CS6 available for subscription on the CC. What prevents Adobe from simply offering an option to purchase that exact same software with a perpetual license? I mean..the software is identical, so it shouldn't require any additional testing...at most, it would require a bit of additional code that keeps it from shutting down after a month.


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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 3:01:47 pm

Such BS, it was the same beta team for both.
I was there, I know.

All new features get tested in isolation.
All new fixes get tested in isolation.


Honestly you guys need to consider the fact that this debate is so strong. People are just not buying it and it's eroding the name Adobe.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 2:44:56 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "... but my actual point in the section that you quoted was that the upfront cost of entry is far, far less, and that matters to a vast number of people. It might not matter to you, for which I congratulate you, but the overall number of people who can clear the initial cost barrier is now far greater than it was before."

Upfront costs are now lessened only to those new users who don't have a credit card. With a credit card there is no upfront or monthly financial benefit to the Cloud. And of course for existing users the cost is higher.

[Todd Kopriva] "We're seeing the results already, with a huge increase in the number of people using tools like After Effects. As someone whose career it is to help people to make art with After Effects, this means that I am happy because I'm now serving far more people."

If you are getting new users it is at the cost of loosing old users. Adobe's own predictions indicate a loss of about 50% of their current user base. I have yet to see or hear any evidence or projections which show an increase in the overall AE user base due to the Cloud. The Cloud is about maximizing user's updates, not about maximizing users. I can see how from a software designers point of view the loss of users that don't update frequently might not make much of an impact, but those lost users are there and as you can tell from the various forums, they are not as happy as you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:10:24 pm

[Herb Sevush] Upfront costs are now lessened only to those new users who don't have a credit card.

TBF, this wasn't an option for a lot of people in various parts of the world Herb. I think the low cost of entry is the one positive thing about the Cloud. Most of the other benefits that keep being trotted out, I think are dubious at best.

But not having to shell out a grand or thereabouts, more if you're not in the US, upfront is a good thing. The long term drawbacks are obvious, but when you're just starting out - it's gold dust.

Best,
Sandeep.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:28:32 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] " not having to shell out a grand or thereabouts, more if you're not in the US, upfront is a good thing. The long term drawbacks are obvious, but when you're just starting out - it's gold dust."

I plead guilty for seeing things thru American eyes. I will try to keep a wider perspective in future postings.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Joe Marler
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 5:48:14 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "US law and accounting regulations that are consequences of those laws make it so that we were previously very strictly prohibited from releasing features for a product for which you had already paid in full"

Microsoft will be releasing Windows 8.1 (which has significant new features) as a free update to customers who already paid in full for 8.0. Are they not affected by the same regulations?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 8:22:37 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "a huge increase in the number of people using tools like After Effects."

Todd - I'm going to be careful in how I phrase this, but with CS licenses for AE running in the order of millions and millions, and CC yet to reach one million, how exactly are you working that out? how does that make any sense?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 8:50:35 pm

I question your first number.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:13:19 pm

Todd, I'm not going to flat out say you're simply making things up - that would be rude - but are you actually claiming that there less than 8-900,000 licenses of AE out there under the CS model? Because that is approximately the number you are at with CC.

Adobe are in record as saying that they have sold somewhere in the region of 8.5 million CS suites total.
Are you sure you want to stick with this line?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:23:33 pm

I'm referring to people _using_ the software, not licenses sold (which count things like Master Collection, for which After Effects may be installed but never used).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:31:25 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "I'm referring to people _using_ the software, not licenses sold (which count things like Master Collection, for which After Effects may be installed but never used)."

of course that applies to the Cloud as well. With 800,000 cloud users you might have only 25% using AE. Do you know how many subscribers are using Cloud AE?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:48:43 pm

Yes. If people opt in to the Product Improvement Program, we can see anonymous usage information. After Effects usage is much higher now.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:01:03 pm

[Todd Kopriva] " If people opt in to the Product Improvement Program, we can see anonymous usage information. After Effects usage is much higher now."

What your numbers are telling you is that you are seeing growth in the set of users who opt in. You probably don't have any idea of the numbers of users who don't opt in. I would venture to guess that new users opt in much more frequently; probably most old users never heard of the program. I've been using AE for ten years and I know I haven't.

Todd, your coming at this as though the 8.5 million copies of AE sold in the past don't exist. They do, even if you don't have any way to quantify it. You are looking at the information you can quantify and excluding everything else.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:09:21 pm

There's no point in arguing this.

If Creative Cloud isn't for you, it isn't for you.

I'm busier than I've ever been supporting a vastly larger number of users than we've ever had before. If you want to think that I'm making things up, there's nothing that I can say to convince you, and there's really no point in me trying.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 1:11:37 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "a vastly larger number of users than we've ever had before"

I'm flat out calling four pinocchios here. Todd's metrics are all over the place, first he says it's more people, then when the disparity in licenses for CC vs CS is pointed out to him, he says its not more people with AE, its more people relatively using AE, and now he's back to a "vastly larger number" of users.

Is anyone buying this? seriously?

maybe its these new guys he's referring to - the conference attendees that adobe are giving a year of the entire CC suite away for free to.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1378891

That I find a sure sign the CC is in great shape - three months into it, adobe are giving it away for free at vegas photoshop conventions.

I mean, that doesn't sound like used car salesman desperation at all.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Paul King
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 5:53:05 am

In other words, if you have been a loyal Adobe customer for years and you don't like that you have to now rent what you previously owned, p1ss off!

Well put Todd, it's the most honesty I have seen about the cloud.

Pity a lot of customers have been loyal to products that have been works in progress up until CS6. Now that those products work as they should have, they can no longer bu them.



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Florian Sepp
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 28, 2013 at 6:01:48 pm

well that might be because those expirienced users, that dont have to ask questions, are not willing to switch. while many of the new CC users are greenhorns that have to ask quasetions.

best regards
Flo


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 10:10:46 pm

There might be more usage of AE because the people who got "all they don´t need" now try that (and are getting in dependency with that, as Adobe has planed).
You can see all the "Newcomer - I need help" question at Adobe Forums.
I never saw so much "basic questions".
So I think, many people are trying that Apps now.
Not working with that Apps.


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David Lawrence
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:49:41 pm

[Herb Sevush] "of course that applies to the Cloud as well. With 800,000 cloud users you might have only 25% using AE. Do you know how many subscribers are using Cloud AE?"

Another way of asking the same question is do CC applications now send usage information back to Adobe so that Adobe can track what applications are being used and for how long? And if so, are users able to opt-out of sending this information?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:52:30 pm

[David Lawrence] " And if so, are users able to opt-out of sending this information?"

Lets not be conspiratorial now. I would see no reason to want to withhold that sort of information other than pure contrariness. And I'm a contrarian.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:58:43 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Lets not be conspiratorial now. I would see no reason to want to withhold that sort of information other than pure contrariness. And I'm a contrarian."

No conspiracies, I missed Todd's reply above while posting and it makes perfect sense.

But given the fact that companies like Sony have gone as far as using root kits in the past, I don't put anything past Adobe management these days. I'm glad they're not as stupid as Sony was in this case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:53:08 pm

> Another way of asking the same question is do CC applications now send usage information back to Adobe so that Adobe can track what applications are being used and for how long? And if so, are users able to opt-out of sending this information?


It's an opt-in system. You are opted out by default. After you've run the software a few times, you'll get a prompt that asks if you want to participate.

Details:
http://www.adobe.com/misc/apipfaq.html

It really helps us when you do participate, since it lets us know what effects are being used most, what error messages people are hitting, et cetera. It's actually because of data from this system that we acquired IRIDAS, since we got a much clearer idea of how much people were using our existing color tools. It's also how we decide what effects to upgrade to 32-bpc, and so on.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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David Lawrence
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59:51 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "It's an opt-in system. You are opted out by default. After you've run the software a few times, you'll get a prompt that asks if you want to participate."

Thanks Todd. That's the right way to do it.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Dustin Lawhorn
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:41:08 pm

Todd,

You have given me the first straight answers to my questions I’ve seen. If you’ve posted them all over the internet and I’ve somehow missed it--I’m sorry. But I want you to know that I really appreciate it!

Thanks,

-dl


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:49:51 pm

You're welcome, Dustin.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Matt Galuszewski
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 27, 2013 at 1:36:42 pm

So the Product Improvement Program is an opt in per application as far as I understand after reading the Adobe FAQ.

I have not opted in but would I be correct though that your system knows what particular apps I have downloaded and installed and therefore you know the total number of CC Premier Pro installs, etc. And as an extension of this you also know the number of people who have done the 7.0.1 update.

Would I be correct in assuming that Adobe knows the number of CC After Effects, for example, that have been uninstalled using the Adobe supplied Uninstaller?



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Herb Sevush
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 9:50:05 pm

[Herb Sevush] " With 800,000 cloud users you might have only 25% using AE. Do you know how many subscribers are using Cloud AE?"

Thinking about it further, I see reasons to believe actual AE cloud users are even fewer.

In the old days of perpetual licenses you had to have a good reason to buy the Master Suite, if you were not interested in video you had the option to buy a bundle that excluded video products.

Now with the cloud the only bundle is the Master Suite, so you have web designers owning video products they will never use and video editors owning graphics programs they will never open. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the actual use of any CC product other than Photoshop is lower as a percentage of total sales than it ever was before.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:35:02 pm

I am sure that maxxon users aprobably account for a bunch of new ae users.

Ricardo


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Reasons for changing to new subscription model... from another forum.
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:08:53 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "I'm referring to people _using_ the software, "

so you feel you can say based on the opt in data you're generating off the new CC installs, that AE usage is up relative to what exactly Todd? Prior CS installs? for which CS package? master suite? Production Premium? How were you getting that data from the 5.0 and 5.5 suites for comparison?

I'm sorry Todd, but this smells of possibly highly selective reading.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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