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creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.

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Carl Sollenberger
creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 6:16:49 am

I'm not trying to sell my opinion to others or convince people to agree with me... I'm just sharing how I feel in hopes that Adobe can understand customers like me.
I've been using adobe products for over 10 years... Mainly TV production. I love Adobe products.
But, the thought of not owning my software is horrible. Like a carpenter or a mechanic who have their tools - my tools are my software. Owning my own tools that I use to make a living with gives me a sense a security and is a point of pride. Not having the ability to own the very tools that I make my living with is as upsetting to me as it would be a carpenter or a mechanic if you told them they could only lease their tools from this day forward. Listen, call me old fashioned - but I WANT to own the tools of my trade, and I'm happy to pay for them - as long as they are mine. I don't want to borrow them from Adobe for a monthly fee.
Now I shift from opinion to a complaint. Telling me I will have the option to "back save" versions of my work to CS6 which would somehow allow me to open work I do a few years from now is far fetched and disingenuous - and Adobe - you know that. An after effects project I may do in 2015 would be useless if I had to resort to trying to work with it in CS6 for what ever reason. CS 7's union with Cinema 4d alone will make a lot of the work I do in ae useless if I try to open a back saved version of the comp in CS6 as I am a heavy C4d user.
Adobe should offer both options - forever. Adobe Creative Cloud was a brilliant idea until they decided it was the only idea. As soon as I can switch from adobe to a good alternative that will allow me to own my own tools once again I will be doing so immediately.
Adobe, if you we're shaping your future based on providing wonderful options for your customers, rather than lining your pockets, you would not be taking this path. Because the truth is Creative Cloud makes great sense for a lot of your customers... But for for many others it's no fun at all. Treat both types of customers great and you'll continue to grow - let me continue to own the tools of my trade.
thanks Creative Cow for giving me a forum to respectfully share my views with the creative community.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 6:52:30 am

That's exactly what I think too, I like options, and now there's none.
What worries me more is the possibility of other companies taking the same approach, that's why after my $29.99 subscription ends I'm canceling it, I know Adobe won't hear anything I say, the only thing I can do is not succumb to their trap.
So I'll be rolling back, and I guess I'll use their 30 day trial when it's necessary, it sucks, but sucks even more to let them have it.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 8:32:47 am

Have to agree with everything said here. Why not allow ownership?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Tim Vaughan
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 11:16:01 am

I totally agree. It all comes down to one simple thing: At the end of the term, you have nothing to show. Your creative work...blah blah blah... I'm sorry, but reality is you pay for something, you should have something. It's an absolute slap to the face.

Tim
Apple XRAID, XServe, 2008 2x3 GHz Quad-Core MacPro, Macbook Pro, XSAN, FCP Studio (7), AVID Media Composer, Adobe Production Premium, Maxon Cinema 4d, AJA Kona 3, Flanders Scientific Monitors, Panasonic HPX250's, Kessler Crane, Glidecam.....
Beer fridge fully loaded.


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Tim Kolb
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 12:53:14 pm

[Jim Wiseman] " Why not allow ownership?"

The whole concept is to change the relationship so the applications can be updated more often, in smaller increments. Under the old model, patching software already released and sold is a different cost center than developing software not yet released...

Deciding what features to "patch" and which features to develop for sale in the next release is an ongoing decision making process.

When Adobe says they can bring new features to you sooner under the Cloud arrangement, they aren't jerking your chain. If you're paying every month, then there is no reason to hold a feature for the "next release" once it is ready to go. Since you are paying every month, Adobe no longer has to keep cost accounting against product already sold, and product not yet offered...it's all the same because for accounting purposes, the customer relationship is monthly, not yearly...or in the case of many of the users yelling the loudest, every other year or every third year.

There is no question that Adobe is intentionally altering the relationship with this move, and one of the key issues is leveling out revenue...but it's also the ridiculous stress of cranking out the entire creative line of software on a yearly, synchronous basis. Not every application needs the same development increment, and not every new feature's development falls neatly into the same timeframe, and often not every user can wait another year for a particular feature...video editors in the months immediately after a new video format releases for instance.

There are many, legitimate reasons to complain about this arrangement and ask Adobe to alter their course...I certainly get that.

However, even after the precipitous price drop when they created the Video Collection in 2003, Adobe has been constantly adding applications included for the same price...immense feature developments, etc... I just don't see how one can put forward "corporate greed" as the defining factor after 17 years of watching these products grow immensely in features and drop, or at least not increase notably in price.

Attacking a company for needing to make a profit is an absolutely useless strategy, because coming from professionals who need to make money, it is simply nonsensical. That line of criticism will simply be ignored, and rightly so.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Tim Vaughan
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 2:02:44 pm

We get that, it makes sense. It's almost the same as the "chicken and the egg". However, it's nice at the end of the day to have something-anything to show for what you paid. Peeps have long since been using previous version for years as it fit their needs, and have upgraded only when they so deemed fit. The problem is now (or within the next few years), that will not be an option.

And probably the biggest concern is this: IF Adobe succeeds in doing this, soon after everyone will be doing so. And within a few years, this really could turn in to a very, very costly business. What's to say Apple or Microsoft doesn't start offering-demanding that their OS will be rental only. Other vendors follow suite. We do live in a copycat world, and when others see the financial success, it won't be long before their shareholders are demanding the same.

To quite the great Captain Picard: "....Not this time. The line must be drawn here! This far, no farther!...."

Tim
Apple XRAID, XServe, 2008 2x3 GHz Quad-Core MacPro, Macbook Pro, XSAN, FCP Studio (7), AVID Media Composer, Adobe Production Premium, Maxon Cinema 4d, AJA Kona 3, Flanders Scientific Monitors, Panasonic HPX250's, Kessler Crane, Glidecam.....
Beer fridge fully loaded.


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Gary Huff
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 2:29:31 pm

[Tim Kolb] "Attacking a company for needing to make a profit is an absolutely useless strategy, because coming from professionals who need to make money, it is simply nonsensical. That line of criticism will simply be ignored, and rightly so."

Please. There are good ways and bad ways to make money. As long as people think that Adobe is using a bad way to make money, commenting on said opinion is fair game.

Absolutely nobody is saying these tools should be free.


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Mark Suszko
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 2:34:14 pm

I thought that Adobe's new revenue model looked familar, somehow.... and then I remembered where I'd seen it before:


(NSFW: contains bad language)








But I'm sure Adobe is run by nothing but good fellows....


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Tim Kolb
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 4:04:37 pm

[Gary Huff] "Absolutely nobody is saying these tools should be free."

...but users who choose to upgrade every other version or every third version and expect the same upgrade fee as those who stay with every version certainly isn't supporting the development efforts of the software relative to users who stay current.

For the sake of argument, let's say each upgrade Adobe comes out with costs Adobe roughly the same or more than the last one (salaries are any businesses' biggest expense, and of course costs will vary cycle to cycle and application to application).

If the idea under the conventional system is that a software company needs to innovate enough to get your hard-earned money from you to upgrade each cycle, that's fair...but what happens when the lion's share of the customers are paying for half-price (or less) upgrades as your market saturation is such that new customers just aren't being created at the same rate as 10 years ago? Development costs aren't half of what they used to be...

The idea you buy the new software at a deep discount because you have a serial number that proves you bought it before is already a "subscription" relationship...and in many of the creative markets that Adobe serves, they have to figure out how to keep paying all the people who keep on creating these applications based on the substantially reduced per unit revenue of software upgrades as the -primary- product instead of a supplementary one.

I can understand the desire to own a static piece of software at the point you decide to cut ties, but U.S. tax laws don't see a vehicle lease with a fixed end-of-term buyout price as a true "lease" so much as a structured purchase...so you have to amortize any vehicle you have as if it's an owned asset if the end of the lease isn't based on an option for a "fair market value" buyout at the end if you don't choose to simply return it. I'm not sure a similar situation would actually help the ability to keep the software up continually as now you're back to defining what the user will get for some fixed amount of money...or having them pay a retail sort of price for it to separate the transaction from the CC agreement the user chose not to continue...otherwise a user could subscribe for a month and keep the applications they installed, which would be ridiculous.

I realize the only answer that the really vocal voices on this want to hear is that the old perpetual license structure will be brought back and both systems will be maintained, those are going to also be the users who would would complain that they pay more than the Cloud users on an ongoing basis...so I don't know how Adobe can really win in the eyes of this group. Over the years our software in this industry has become immensely complex and in other industries with equally complex software, this "maintenance" arrangement isn't really that uncommon.

I have been watching Adobe adding feature after feature to these applications for a decade and a half..they're incredibly powerful tools...but I don't know anyone who could honestly say that Premiere Pro is an "elegant" piece of software. It's a monster. Part of the driving force behind developing software that you have to "sell" anew every year or so is that the flashy tradeshow demo features have to be added to get that attention...and therefore are the priority when it comes to allocating resources. Things like small niggling mechanical issues and efficiency don't make good tradeshow demos, so they get done in very small increments, or simply put off altogether.

I think the mantra that "innovation" may suffer may actually have some truth to it as the term is applied by some, but then that's exactly what I'm hoping for. Once Adobe stabilizes the revenue stream, the "innovation" that keeps bloating these software applications through the drive to blow your mind every 12 months can start to balance out with the less sexy, but more useful "improvements" that will make these applications easier to use, more intuitive to understand, and less resource-intensive to run.

Adobe's method of announcing this, and offering some room to move for those customers who don't want to make the change was a bit abrupt in my opinion, but given a year of warning, I think this pot would simply stir for the whole year, drowning out any other messages Adobe would have...as is the case with the new features in the CC release, which are getting lost in the din right now.

Everyone can keep pointing at Apple and FCPX as an example of a disaster of this type, but in a couple years after just changing direction and not apologizing for it, FCPX is succeeding in the market it was focused on, which is far larger than the TV/Film professional editing market ever was for them in seats, and their overhead associated with keeping up a dealer channel and support has been slashed...from a business standpoint, it's probably hard to argue that they made a wrong long-term move.

So...if FCPX is the example, from a purely business standpoint, I think it probably does more to support the way Adobe went about this vs. condemn it.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Gary Huff
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 4:52:14 pm

[Tim Kolb] "...but users who choose to upgrade every other version or every third version and expect the same upgrade fee as those who stay with every version certainly isn't supporting the development efforts of the software relative to users who stay current."

So? Who is even saying this? We're beyond talking about whether or not to upgrade every other version. And plenty of people have crunched those numbers and found them wanting. Besides that, price is, on one hand an issue (probably way less bitching if it was $29.99 indefinitely), but on the other hand it isn't about price because people are looking at being locked into a monthly fee for the rest of their professional lives. And it doesn't feel right.

I realize the only answer that the really vocal voices on this want to hear is that the old perpetual license structure will be brought back and both systems will be maintained, those are going to also be the users who would would complain that they pay more than the Cloud users on an ongoing basis...so I don't know how Adobe can really win in the eyes of this group.

By not @&$!ing it up...by providing a consistent experience for the vast majority of their users that doesn't involve any downtime of significant expense for those paying monthly (or being generous with their restitution if they are), offering continuous improvements, new features, and new software, and proving that they will treat the customer right instead of using their new, steady income to enrich their top level management (at the expense of R&D or the programmers or the people who actually make the company have a product).

I have been watching Adobe adding feature after feature to these applications for a decade and a half..they're incredibly powerful tools...but I don't know anyone who could honestly say that Premiere Pro is an "elegant" piece of software. It's a monster.

Well, pre-CS probably, but really, you're way behind the curve if you think that. Premiere CS6 is far more pleasant to edit in on the whole over and above FCP Legacy, and even FCPX in my opinion.

I think the mantra that "innovation" may suffer may actually have some truth to it as the term is applied by some, but then that's exactly what I'm hoping for. Once Adobe stabilizes the revenue stream, the "innovation" that keeps bloating these software applications through the drive to blow your mind every 12 months can start to balance out with the less sexy, but more useful "improvements" that will make these applications easier to use, more intuitive to understand, and less resource-intensive to run.


It may or may not. I think the fear that the powers-that-be at Adobe will become arrogantly complacent is a well-founded one, primarily because you can't just stick with the last version you felt had value. The time to make sure Adobe stays on its toes is now, when there's actually an impact to be made, not years from now if Adobe decides to thumb its nose at is users and go, "You don't like us, tough!"

Everyone can keep pointing at Apple and FCPX as an example of a disaster of this type,

And they would primarily be incorrect. FCPX was about the software itself...no body really cared about the distribution method.

Here, everyone's excited about the software, it's solely the distribution method that's causing a cow.


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Tim Kolb
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 5:25:26 pm

[Gary Huff] "Well, pre-CS probably, but really, you're way behind the curve if you think that. Premiere CS6 is far more pleasant to edit in on the whole over and above FCP Legacy, and even FCPX in my opinion."

It's about what you like. I made the move to Adobe a long time ago, I've never seen a version of FCP that made me want to move for the work that I do.

Your opinion is as legitimate for you as mine is for me...the migration to Premiere Pro since it went 64 bit in vCS5 is well documented.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Gary Huff
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 2:52:35 pm

[Tim Kolb] "
When Adobe says they can bring new features to you sooner under the Cloud arrangement, they aren't jerking your chain. If you're paying every month, then there is no reason to hold a feature for the "next release" once it is ready to go. Since you are paying every month, Adobe no longer has to keep cost accounting against product already sold, and product not yet offered...it's all the same because for accounting purposes, the customer relationship is monthly, not yearly...or in the case of many of the users yelling the loudest, every other year or every third year."


Well, this is the idea...we'll have to see it in practice first, actually, to know what it's like.

But if it's anything like how FCPX gets updated, that's a good start, but I still feel that, overall, the update cycle is still more or less like it has been since patches began to be delivered internally within the software.


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Richard Cardonna
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 3:50:54 pm

I also thought it was great because if due to work surge i would have made a temporary subscription. But that will not happen now. I will check out fcpx as well as others.

Richard


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Jim Wiseman
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 5:23:55 pm

Congratulations on a wonderful, respectful, heartfelt post Carl. Many of us are not into the disposable nature of Creative Cloud. That is the end result. Your software and your life's work is disposed of if/when you quit playing. This is a play to Wall Street to lift the stock price and increase profits. They said exactly that in their statement to the Street. They could have added improvements to the software without running us into a wall if we quit paying forever.

A company that does not listen to their customers is headed for a contraction, not an expansion, in the long run. People are not stupid, although some take longer than others to realize it. I hope that the ones who fall for the Creative Cloud model are not too emotionally attached to their work. They are eventually going to be hurt.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Carl Sollenberger
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 4:11:34 pm

In my OP the point I was trying to make was that me not being allowed to own the tools of my trade is a deal breaker.
I think Adobe has done a fantastic job over the years keeping their products updated and loaded with fresh new features.
But please understand, I don't care what said benefits may be, a fellow like me does not want to rent software - he wants to pay a fair price to own it.
You know... more frequent updates and a few extra features are a great way to have people WILLINGLY sign up for CC. Not to mention CC makes more economical sense for some I'm sure. But no matter how you slice it - I prefer to OWN my tools. Even if I have to pay more, and even if they are a little less slick than the tools available for rent.
To be honest, I was planning on doing both. I crank out a lot of production, and money is not the issue for me. I had fully intended on using CC and also paying to own my own current version of the software. That's how important owning my tools is to me.
Now - I will switch away from Adobe as soon as I can if the ownership option is taken from me.



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Carl Sollenberger
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 4:22:59 pm

You know.... I no more want to rent software than I want to rent the computer I use to run it on. I don't want to rent my HD video cam. I don't want to rent my still cam or the tripods I stand them on. I don't want to rent my lights or my wireless mic....
I don't want to rent my clothes. I don't want to rent my car or my house. I don't want to rent or lease my things period.

I've not gone a single day without working since I was in my teens. I work hard, and I buy the things that I want, that I can afford.
Like I said - a few extra features... faster updates (which could be accomplished without CC) won't change that for me and others like me.
Both options should be on the table. I'd even pay extra to have my way.



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Steve Pender
Re: creative cloud was a great idea until it became the only idea. I like owning the tools of my trade.
on May 9, 2013 at 5:28:31 pm

I'm still with CS5. It's working fine and I'm sticking with it as I have no need to upgrade. No subscription software with monthly payments for me.

Steve Pender
Family Legacy Video, Inc.
http://www.familylegacyvideo.com


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