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David Lawrence
Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 27, 2013 at 10:59:30 pm

Multi-cam users have discovered a mission critical bug in the current version of Premiere Pro CC. You can read about it here in the Adobe forum:

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1236698?start=40&tstart=0

Though there appear to be a couple complex workarounds, the bottom line is multi-cam is currently unusable in Premiere Pro CC and in the forum, some users have had to resort to rebuilding hours of work from scratch in CS6.

This leads to an interesting question. On of the big supposed benefits of being forced to rent is that now, bug fixes will happen more quickly and new feature and bug fix timeframes can be announced in advance.

Which is why I found these replies from an Adobe staff rather strange:




So how is this in any way different than the way things were with perpetual licensing?

As a former developer, I understand why committing to a timeframe may be impossible, but that was when I was making software, not delivering a service.

This bug was reported on 6/19, seven business days ago. How quickly will Adobe's fix become available?

And what are Adobe's new responsibilities to subscribers since CC is now a service? Users have reported hours of lost work. Until the bug fix is deployed, Premiere Pro CC is unusable for multi-cam.

What happens to people who don't already own CS6 and have nothing perpetual to fall back on?

In the service industry this is known as downtime, and there is usually compensation attached, depending on the contract. My cell phone provider has always given me a month of free service whenever there's an outage as a good faith measure. That's why I've stayed with them for close to ten-years.

Will Adobe do the same now that they're a service provider as well?

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Steve Brame
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 27, 2013 at 11:52:30 pm

[David Lawrence] "and there is usually compensation attached"

While I certainly understand your sentiment and position, good luck with that.

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Todd Kopriva
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 12:05:59 am

We can't commit to specific times because we can't control everything. If we said that a bug-fix update is coming out on July 8th, and then a power outage occurred or someone got sick and caused us to slip by a few days, then we'd have broken an explicit promise.

What we can do is to tell you what we're working on and what we're aiming for.

For example, I can say that we are targeting a bug-fix update to After Effects CS6 (11) by the end of September to fix some critical bugs, including to make it work on Mac OSX v10.9 (Mavericks). I can also say that we are targeting September and December releases to add features and fix bugs for After Effects CC (12). I can say that I've been testing a new feature in After Effects that allows you to enable use of untested, unsupported GPUs for acceleration of the ray-traced 3D renderer (though we still have some bugs to work out there).

I could not have said any of what I said in the preceding paragraph before (without getting fired). But I also won't guarantee a date in September... just like Steve and Mark won't promise a date for their fixes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 12:20:49 am

Todd, Thank you for the fast reply.

[Todd Kopriva] "We can't commit to specific times because we can't control everything. If we said that a bug-fix update is coming out on July 8th, and then a power outage occurred or someone got sick and caused us to slip by a few days, then we'd have broken an explocit promise."

Yes, completely understandable.

[Todd Kopriva] "What we can do is to tell you what we're working on and what we're aiming for.

For example, I can say that we are targeting a bug-fix update to After Effects CS6 by the end of September to fix sp,e critical bugs, including to make it work on Mac OSX v10.9 (Mavericks)."


[Todd Kopriva] "I could not have said any of what I said in the preceding paragraph before (without getting fired)."

This is the part I don't understand.

CS6 is still sold as with perpetual license option. What changed with regard to CS6 that lets you comment on it now?

Similarly, what would prevent Adobe from selling and commenting on AE CC(12) as a perpetual product with the understanding that no feature updates will be delivered until next year with version 13?

Again, I realize you don't make the business decisions and my intent is not to put you on the spot. As always I appreciate your voice in this forum.

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Todd Kopriva
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 3:08:31 am

The difference is that now people are paying for access to the most recent versions (including new features) on an ongoing basis, which changes how revenue is "recognized". That frees us up to discuss future updates and features, without running afoul of accounting regulations (a la Sarbanes-Oxley).

You're right that I probably could have commented on bug-fix updates for the perpetually licensed version in about the same way before. So I overstated in my previous message. But I certainly couldn't have commented on new features and when they were (likely) coming.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 12:06:05 am

[Steve Brame] "While I certainly understand your sentiment and position, good luck with that."

Oh believe me, I'm not expecting anything. I'm just raising the question.

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walter biscardi
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 12:50:09 am

[David Lawrence] "So how is this in any way different than the way things were with perpetual licensing?"

Why would you expect this to be any different than perpetual licensing? Are you expecting the software to now ship with zero bugs? Cloud / Perpetual licensing, bugs are ALWAYS addressed as quickly as they can. The fact that subscription is now how you purchase the software doesn't change how bugs are fixed.

What HAS changed is that new features are rolled out as soon as they're ready instead of waiting for a charged dot update.

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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 1:35:32 am

[walter biscardi] "Why would you expect this to be any different than perpetual licensing? Are you expecting the software to now ship with zero bugs? Cloud / Perpetual licensing, bugs are ALWAYS addressed as quickly as they can. "

I'm in complete agreement with you here. I don't expect software to be bug free ever. Bugs go with the territory.

[walter biscardi] "The fact that subscription is now how you purchase the software doesn't change how bugs are fixed. "

Here I disagree. What exactly am I buying? If I'm subscribing to a service, then I have very different expectations than if I'm licensing a product.

Adobe seems to want to have it both ways in this regard. If they're operating as software developers and selling me a product, than I can cut them slack with regard to mission critical bugs.

But if they're telling me they're providing a service, then I think of them as my cell and cable provider. That means I consider mission critical bugs service downtime.

I don't advocate lawsuits, that would be silly, but I think this raises some important questions that we will only see more of in the future.

And again, outside of DRM lock-in, it doesn't address the question of why yearly perpetual versions couldn't be made available for millions of customers like me who currently have no choice.

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Dennis Radeke
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 10:17:34 am

David,

As an Adobe employee and always a frank and candid one, I can honestly say that I feel very good about Adobe's track record at a) acknowledging bugs and b) delivering fixes in a timely manner.

Frankly, a lot of companies want to stick their head in the sand, blame Apple or microsoft and deny any responsibility. Adobe is pretty up front about saying 'yeah, that's us, we'll fix it.' Todd acknowledged that we're going back to patch CS6 for future Apple support. Some companies including those that sell membership or subscription type services wouldn't do that...

Also, if you've been in development, you'd recognize the enormous responsibility to validate the fix by testing again and again by your QE team and through beta testers. That alone for us given the language localizations, the testing matrix and the possible situations that created the bug means it typically takes 30 days or so to test. Now multiply that times however many bugs we identify and fix in a release... We take bug fixing VERY seriously and consequently our testing too.

Delivering fixes hasn't changed in the new model. We have and will continue to fix bugs as quickly as possible. Delivery of new features has changed as a result of this new model. We're not trying to have it both ways.

I hope this helps clarify.

To all the US folks - Have a happy Independence Day!

Dennis


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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 9:28:21 pm

Dennis,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

I have nothing but the highest respect and regard for everyone in Adobe engineering and support. You guys do a fantastic job listening and responding and your track record speaks for itself.

My issue is with decisions that I fully understand are completely out of your hands. My intent in continuing these dialogues is the hope that through conversations with Adobe reps like you, the ideas exchanged will reach senior management and affect policy change.

[Dennis Radeke] "Also, if you've been in development, you'd recognize the enormous responsibility to validate the fix by testing again and again by your QE team and through beta testers. That alone for us given the language localizations, the testing matrix and the possible situations that created the bug means it typically takes 30 days or so to test. Now multiply that times however many bugs we identify and fix in a release... We take bug fixing VERY seriously and consequently our testing too."

Yes, I absolutely understand and agree. But again, here's my problem - Adobe no longer sells products. Adobe is now a service provider. That completely changes how I think about Adobe's responsibility to me as a customer.

Adobe is asking customers like myself to radically rethink our personal business models. The argument is I should treat software rental as any other recurring business expense, i.e. ISP, cell provider, electricity, etc.

OK. But if you expect me to treat you like a utility in terms of business expense, I now have the same expectations in terms of service uptime.

30-days for bug testing is completely reasonable for a software product.

30-days to fix a mission critical bug would be as unacceptable as 30-days of downtime for cell service, electricity, water, or ISP. I'm sure you'd agree.

This is what I mean when I say Adobe is trying to have it both ways.

Adobe wants to be paid as a service and is now requiring payment for file access. Yet when comes to actual development, it's still regular software with the traditional bug fix protocols. *Note - I am not talking about new features, or accounting and release. Yes that is different.

Of course, the good news is as Todd has pointed out below, a fix is close to ready and will be deployed soon.

But my larger point remains.

If CC were a true cloud service hosted on your servers and running on your CPUs, again I would have an easier time believing the SaaS model. It may get to that point in the future, but in its current implementation it's clearly not the case.

Therefore, as long as Adobe continues to position its offerings as pure service with no viable options for users like me regarding future file access and perpetual archival copies, I think it's important to raise questions about the model and push for something better for everyone.

As you know, there's been much talk about here on the COW and elsewhere about ideas like a loyalty buy-out as a means of making everyone happy. I'm sure this has been discussed with senior management and they're well aware of it. I don't know the business complications of such a plan but I'd be surprised if a company as big and smart as Adobe couldn't figure out how to make something like this work. If they want to.

Again, I appreciate these conversations with you and everyone from Adobe here on the COW.

--dhl

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Walter Soyka
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 1:17:58 am

[David Lawrence] "30-days for bug testing is completely reasonable for a software product. 30-days to fix a mission critical bug would be as unacceptable as 30-days of downtime for cell service, electricity, water, or ISP. I'm sure you'd agree."

I don't do multicam, but this does look like a particularly nasty bug and I'm glad to hear a fix is coming soon.

I don't think that a bug, even one this bad, is the same as full-on downtime, though. The rest of the product is still usable. It's certainly vitally important that this information is widely publicized so people this might affect can hold off on updating, or can choose to update and avoid the multicam feature until the fix is released.

Pushing out a rushed bug fix without properly testing it could result in equally hideous bugs elsewhere. That would strike me as pretty irresponsible.


[David Lawrence] "What happens to people who don't already own CS6 and have nothing perpetual to fall back on?"

You don't need a perpetual license to dodge this bug -- CC members can download and install CS6.

Walter Soyka
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Walter Soyka
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 2, 2013 at 7:05:38 pm

[David Lawrence] "If CC were a true cloud service hosted on your servers and running on your CPUs, again I would have an easier time believing the SaaS model. It may get to that point in the future, but in its current implementation it's clearly not the case. Therefore, as long as Adobe continues to position its offerings as pure service with no viable options for users like me regarding future file access and perpetual archival copies, I think it's important to raise questions about the model and push for something better for everyone."

David, when we've discussed CC elsewhere, you've described it as software rental. That certainly seems a more accurate description than software as a service, given that the software runs locally, not remotely, and is not centrally administered.

I know you are pushing for something better, but I'm not clear on what you would have liked to have seen differently here in handling this bug, or how other licensing plans might have mitigated the bug's effect.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 4, 2013 at 3:43:56 am

[Walter Soyka] "David, when we've discussed CC elsewhere, you've described it as software rental. That certainly seems a more accurate description than software as a service, given that the software runs locally, not remotely, and is not centrally administered.

I know you are pushing for something better, but I'm not clear on what you would have liked to have seen differently here in handling this bug, or how other licensing plans might have mitigated the bug's effect."


Whether we call it software rental or service is largely irrelevant. The fact remains it's being sold as a service. In the thread above, I get the impression you think of CC that way as well, at least in terms of billing:

[Walter Soyka] "There's a lot of rhetoric here with words like "chained" and "hostage" because CC requires on-going payment. My business has similar dependencies on a dozen other things like this: rent, power, Internet, phones, insurance, email, web hosting, storage, etc. I don't consider myself chained or held hostage by any of these, even though I couldn't work without them and some of them would be vastly harder to switch away from or drop than Adobe software. I consider them costs of doing business, and I pay them so I can keep working and keep making money."

Would a 30-day outage of any of those services be acceptable to you? If not, why would a 30-day software service outage be any different?

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Walter Soyka
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 4, 2013 at 4:24:14 am

[David Lawrence] "Whether we call it software rental or service is largely irrelevant. The fact remains it's being sold as a service. In the thread above, I get the impression you think of CC that way as well, at least in terms of billing:"

I think there's a big conceptual difference between software rental and software as a service, even if they bill the same way.

Renting software, I still run it on my own machines and am responsible for its administration. It's like a perpetual license, except my use of it is limited by time.

Software as a service is more abstract, less tangible. It's running on someone else's machine, and someone else takes care of it. I can access it, but it's not "here." I have no control whatsoever over its administration or availability.

I think of CC as an ongoing cost of business. Most of those are traditionally services, agreed, but I wouldn't say my office rental is a service. I wouldn't say an equipment lease is a service. CC feels more like that to me.

Is that difference irrelevant? Maybe so, but CC is unlike any other SaaS solution I can think of, whereas the word rental does pretty well capture the way it works.


[David Lawrence] "Would a 30-day outage of any of those services be acceptable to you? If not, why would a 30-day software service outage be any different?"

First, I don't see the difference that you see between the reasonable expectations of merchantability of services (software subscription) vs. goods (perpetually-licensed software). I expect the stuff I buy outright, the stuff I rent, and the services I use to generally work as intended.

Since you are raising this point as a negative for subscriptions, let's consider an alternative. If CC had never happened and we were talking about CS7 instead, are you arguing that this bug and fix schedule would be totally ok? You would have paid upfront for something that didn't work. Why would that make it better? This is a bad bug, no doubt, but I don't see what it has to do with CC or subscriptions.

Second, I wouldn't call this an outage. A service outage of my electricity means I have no power at all. A multicam bug in Premiere Pro CC means I can't edit multicam in Premiere Pro CC without a workaround. I can still use all the other features in Premiere Pro and all the other software, and I can still use Premiere Pro CS6 via Creative Cloud with its multicam -- all exactly the same as if it had been CS7 (except that new CS7 users wouldn't have CC's CS6 to fall back on. An outage to me would mean none of my Adobe software launched. If that happened, yes, I'd be furious.

Third, people generally aren't willing to pay what it would cost to have bug-free software, either in terms of money or reduced features and flexibility, irrespective of licensing. We seem willing to trade some reliability for higher functional expectations with software, even though it'd be insane to make that tradeoff with, say, our cars.

I keep asking this question because I am really curious: this is clearly unacceptable to you, so what do you think would have been a more reasonable response?

Walter Soyka
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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 12, 2013 at 7:38:39 am

[Walter Soyka] "Renting software, I still run it on my own machines and am responsible for its administration. It's like a perpetual license, except my use of it is limited by time."

[Walter Soyka] "Is that difference irrelevant? Maybe so, but CC is unlike any other SaaS solution I can think of, whereas the word rental does pretty well capture the way it works."

Agreed. Except CC is unlike any other major content creation software I know of because there's no option for a perpetual version. This makes it significantly different than software rental plans offered by other vendors such as Autodesk or The Foundry. With CC, once you start you have no choice but to keep renting or lose your file access. To me, this dependency makes it much more service-like.

But the fact that the software lives on your hard drive, runs on your machine and is administered by you underscores the fact that the "service" nature of CC is mostly a marketing fabrication to justify DRM lock-in.

The bottom line is we're now no longer allowed to purchase. We're only allowed to rent time with the product. I believe this huge shift in the power dynamic between vendor and customer calls for a serious re-evaluation of customer expectations.


[Walter Soyka] "I expect the stuff I buy outright, the stuff I rent, and the services I use to generally work as intended."

Agreed, so do I.


[Walter Soyka] "If CC had never happened and we were talking about CS7 instead, are you arguing that this bug and fix schedule would be totally ok? You would have paid upfront for something that didn't work. Why would that make it better? This is a bad bug, no doubt, but I don't see what it has to do with CC or subscriptions."

The problem is rental is time-based.

Perpetually licensed software works forever. I buy it and I'm done paying. If there's a major bug, most developers will eventually offer a fix, rather than lose their reputation and customers.

But with rental software, the clock is always running and the meter must be fed. What happens to the clock if the software is broken beyond use?

For example, multicam users evaluating Pr CC with the 30-day trial lost half of their evaluation time. Some of them have requested trial extensions:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/5495836#5495836

This seems like a reasonable request to me. The fact that Adobe seems unprepared to handle it underscores the confusion of their new business model. Are they a software vendor or a service provider?


[Walter Soyka] "Second, I wouldn't call this an outage."

Maybe, but on the Adobe forum, the people affected at the time might not agree.


[Walter Soyka] "I keep asking this question because I am really curious: this is clearly unacceptable to you, so what do you think would have been a more reasonable response?"

As long as people write software, there will always be bugs. I don't ever expect bug-free software. What I do expect is for my software vendors to respect me as a customer. Please don't try to sell me candy-coated DRM lock-in and tell me it's for my own good. I want to buy your product, so please give me options that are fair for us both. If you won't do that, then take full responsibility for what you're actually selling.

In the case of CC, Adobe isn't selling a product, they're selling time with a product. So I think they need to take responsibility in terms of compensating customer time lost when their product doesn't work. In this case, it could be something as simple as offering one-month credit and 30-day trial extension to everyone who makes a claim. And they need to figure out a policy for future incidents like this because this is just the first.

By summarily removing the option for perpetual licensing for their products, Adobe asks much of their customers. I see no reason why customers shouldn't ask just as much of Adobe in return.

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Jim Wiseman
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 4:01:53 am

September?

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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 12:52:25 am

[David Lawrence] "nd what are Adobe's new responsibilities to subscribers since CC is now a service? Users have reported hours of lost work. Until the bug fix is deployed, Premiere Pro CC is unusable for multi-cam."

I think that is a very important point, and I'm wondering if that leaves Adobe at a very vulnerable position against class action lawsuits if they don't compensate.
They're targeting professionals that need their tools to run their business, and that will lose money, not just time, if the service purchased doesn't perform as advertised. Time wasted doesn't count in courts, but money lost does.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 1:15:57 am

Can you imagine being on a tight deadline and suddenly due to an unforseen bug or internet glitch you cannot finnish nor for that matter deliver the product? It will be a chain of lawsuits.

I would not feel comfortable specialy if all the project was done on cc 7 or higher. nope I want a perpetual lic to fall back on.

Ricardo


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walter biscardi
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 1:18:08 am

[Ricardo Marty] "Can you imagine being on a tight deadline and suddenly due to an unforseen bug or internet glitch you cannot finnish nor for that matter deliver the product? It will be a chain of lawsuits.
"


So Adobe is the only company that could have a bug to completely stop you from delivering on a deadline? Seriously?

Go back and look at my "cautionary tale for the FCP switcher" and see how Avid put us 12 days behind schedule on a PBS series. I didn't file a lawsuit against them. I just switched to Adobe instead.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Ricardo Marty
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 2:03:52 am

No but its the only one that can be stopped cold and i wont be able to do anything.

Ricardo


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walter biscardi
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 2:20:16 am

[Ricardo Marty] "No but its the only one that can be stopped cold and i wont be able to do anything."

Seriously? You never had FCP 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 just not start up for whatever reason? I had plenty of those. Went two days once on one of my systems that FCP 4 I think it was just refused to launch, completely froze the system. Had to rebuild my entire system.

Gosh I don't know how many people I helped with that one.......

All software can stop cold.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Jim Wiseman
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 9:17:03 am

And they are better?

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walter biscardi
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 1:20:14 am

[Gustavo Bermudas] "I think that is a very important point, and I'm wondering if that leaves Adobe at a very vulnerable position against class action lawsuits if they don't compensate.
They're targeting professionals that need their tools to run their business, and that will lose money, not just time, if the service purchased doesn't perform as advertised. Time wasted doesn't count in courts, but money lost does.
"


Wow, y'all are just looking for anything to say "see this could cause a lawsuit against Adobe." It's a software bug. It's a bad one to be sure. Just like the one that Avid had that caused us to get 12 days behind Post on a series. To our knowledge, that bug was fixed about 12 months later. I don't know for sure because we switched to Adobe to get caught back up.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 1:44:02 am

[walter biscardi] "Wow, y'all are just looking for anything to say "see this could cause a lawsuit against Adobe." It's a software bug"

For sure these are untested waters and there are tons of people angry at Adobe, and like the post said, it's a "service" now.
But, let's look at this scenario, you got the 1 year commitment, you cannot perform multi-cam edits, so you have to look at another NLE, you want to cancel the service and they don't let you without the early termination fee.


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walter biscardi
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 2:16:58 am

[Gustavo Bermudas] "But, let's look at this scenario, you got the 1 year commitment, you cannot perform multi-cam edits, so you have to look at another NLE, you want to cancel the service and they don't let you without the early termination fee."

Ok, how about another scenario....

Let's say you buy 5 copies of Avid Symphony because that company promised a smooth native workflow using their AMA concept.

Let's say you start editing Season Two of a PBS Series.

Let's say you find out that the AMA workflow chokes at the end of the editing process when you're ready to finish when using it with a 720p / 59.94 workflow.

Let's say you're the first person in the world to find this major bug.

Let's say Avid spends 12 days trying to fix the problem, even flying a technician down to your facility to spend an entire fruitless day.

Let's say you give up on Avid and move to Adobe to get your workflow going again.

What do you think Avid did? Nothing. I was left with 5 copies of Symphony to either sell on my own or eat the costs. Avid was not required to do anything. I purchased the software without fully testing the 720p/60 workflow. Shame on me, my problem. I'm out over $5,000 up front for something that completely failed in our workflow. Is Avid liable for this? Not really, it was a software bug.

Now let's look at what would have happend with Adobe.

I spend the monthly fees to Adobe. No money up front.

Software fails in my workflow.

I cancel the subscription and get something else. I'm out the money I spent on the subscription.

So you're making a mountain out of a molehill on this one. Go to ANY software company and you have the possibility that the software will fail / quit / be unaccessible, and so on.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
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"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Gary Huff
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 2:59:53 am

[walter biscardi] "
I cancel the subscription and get something else. I'm out the money I spent on the subscription."


Let's hold our horses right there...you can't just "cancel" your subscription. I would say the VAST majority are on the annual plan, meaning they are paying $50 instead of $80...therefore they could owe Adobe as much as $275 just to stop paying month-to-month because of a showstopping bug.


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walter biscardi
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 3:24:57 am

[Gary Huff] "Let's hold our horses right there...you can't just "cancel" your subscription. I would say the VAST majority are on the annual plan, meaning they are paying $50 instead of $80...therefore they could owe Adobe as much as $275 just to stop paying month-to-month because of a showstopping bug.
"


Oh right, so then I'm out about $275 instead of over $5000. Thanks for the clarification.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 3:54:56 am

[walter biscardi] "Oh right, so then I'm out about $275 instead of over $5000. Thanks for the clarification."

I don't think we're comparing apples to apples here, this is an annual commitment service plan, much like a phone service, you just happen to buy 5 licenses.


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Paul King
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 10:04:50 am

Walter

No one is saying that Avid is right or what happened to you wasn't wrong. But your argument about Adobe's responsibility in this matter based on your Avid experience IS totally wrong.

Fact: in Australia the license agreement for software is different than in the US. Adobe have to offer warranty with their product.

A user can return the software for a full refund if it is deemed 'not fit for purpose'. The law in Australia is very clear about this.

So this issue (it's too small to be a bug) is enough for Adobe to have to provide refunds to customers.

In the US you don't have this level of consumer protection, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't and that because this is the software game, Adobe shouldn't be responsible and have to credit customers for lost service.

So in Australia and Europe this is indeed a major problem for Adobe. They're charging for a service that they are not providing and they are charging you for all software in the suite. So a refund can not be diluted because a user has an issue with only one app, it's all sold as a complete product.

Again, stop using Avid as an argument to indemnify Adobe.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 1:20:41 am

[Paul King] "Fact: in Australia the license agreement for software is different than in the US. Adobe have to offer warranty with their product. A user can return the software for a full refund if it is deemed 'not fit for purpose'. The law in Australia is very clear about this."

Maybe we know now why software costs more in Australia?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 9:34:05 am

May be.
But isn´t that the better way for customers?
Isn´t that the way to avoid buggy software?


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Paul King
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 3:28:57 pm

The price has now changed and it's parity with the US.
Delivering to customers what they paid for should not be additional liability to be hedged by higher prices.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 4:29:07 pm

[Paul King] "The price has now changed and it's parity with the US. Delivering to customers what they paid for should not be additional liability to be hedged by higher prices."

You pointed out that Australian customers have a benefit that no one else does, and now they pay the same as everyone else. Surely that unique benefit has some kind of compliance cost (not just the liability of a potential refund which does not exist in other jurisdictions), and now all customers must pay for it instead of only the ones eligible for it.

I don't think you can legislate the bugs out of software, but I don't come here to discuss politics.

What do you think should happen here? And why is this a discussion around Creative Cloud? Would you feel the burden on Adobe to fix it was somehow less for perpetually licensed software? What has changed about the "merchantability" of the offering?

I think the bug should be publicly identified so users are aware (which is has been), and I think Adobe should fix it as soon as they can without recklessly risking breaking other stuff (which they are). What more do you think is reasonable?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 5:01:55 pm

Australiens benefiting from the fees of other countries???
Only because they have a law, where your customer rights are protected?
BtW
The cloud subscription is 81.50 $ (translated from 61,49€) in germany and somewhat more expensive in some European countries.
So I think it´s more that the other countries worldwide are paying for the low US & Australien fees, or?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 5:17:36 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "Australiens benefiting from the fees of other countries??? Only because they have a law, where your customer rights are protected"

I'm not making a value judgement about the regulation. I'm just saying that complying with regulation -- any regulation -- costs money. Think about this from the seller's side.

Whether the benefits of any piece of regulation are worth the costs (which must ultimately be passed to the customer) is a political discussion well outside the scope of this forum.

Consider that different regions have different regulations (SOX in the US, refunds in Australia, what in the EU?). This is a thorny problem that gets badly oversimplified in these discussions.

But I've veered well off topic. Premiere Pro CC has a bad bug that had been acknowledged. A fix is in the works. Isn't this what's supposed to happen when a bug is found?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Paul King
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 30, 2013 at 1:03:42 pm

Compliance cost?

So to rent the software $50/month.
To rent software that works as described $xx/month.

Why should a company get any money if the product has significant faults that stop their customers from using it for the purposed they purchased it for and it was designed for?

Why should Adobe get money if they don't deliver? The CC model allows them to do that and why should they be trusted?



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Walter Soyka
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 2, 2013 at 2:03:29 am

[Paul King] "Compliance cost? So to rent the software $50/month. To rent software that works as described $xx/month. "

I'm not Adobe, and I have no idea what's really behind their history of region-specific pricing. I doubt this issue was ever the cause of the entire price difference between the US and Australia -- but yes, compliance costs in business are real, and somebody has to pick up the tab.

I'm not here to discuss the politics of consumer protection regulation, but I'll happily discuss the economics. Regulations -- even good ones -- create costs. Like the legal team that needs to understand what is required, the mechanism and staff for processing returns (which presumably don't exist elsewhere where software is sold as-is), the administrative time and possible fees for filing whatever paperwork is required by this law with the government, the accounting necessary for recognizing the revenues on sales and liabilities on refunds -- to say nothing of maintaining the additional cash on hand or available credit required for managing the liabilities that refunds create.

So no, Paul, I'm not saying that "software that works as described" should cost extra. The software should work either way, but a sales system built for government-regulated refunds may well cost the seller more than a sales system for as-is delivery, and this cost will be passed on to the consumer. This is basic economics.


[Paul King] "Why should a company get any money if the product has significant faults that stop their customers from using it for the purposed they purchased it for and it was designed for? Why should Adobe get money if they don't deliver? The CC model allows them to do that and why should they be trusted?"

I know you don't like the CC model, and there are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons for that, but what does CC have to do with this? Doesn't CC actually gives the customer more power in this specific case?

Consider if CC hadn't happened and CS7 had been released with this multicam bug. (Let's also look outside of Australia since apparently you can get a refund there anyway in either case.) Customers might have paid anywhere from ~$400 for an upgrade to ~$3,000 for a new Master Collection license that had "significant faults that stop [them] from using it for the purpose they purchased it for and it was designed for" -- and then what?

Creative Cloud actually aligns Adobe with their customers' interest here. Do you as a customer think Adobe is too slow to fix a bug that's preventing you from actually using the product, and thus are not deserving of your money? Cancel your subscription. With the old model, Adobe would have already had all your money for a product you couldn't even use. Now they'll only get it if they keep you happy.

Bugs are bad, whether you pay upfront for a perpetual license for the product, or whether you pay a subscription fee on the product. The Premiere Pro team is good, they are on it, and there's a fix coming.

What more is your expectation?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Paul King
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 30, 2013 at 12:24:13 pm

Walter, I was on the Adobe beta team.

I know of bugs that have not been fixed, the software still gets released and no one is told.

There are two significant CUDA bugs that affect visual quality that persisted from V5 through to V6 without being fixed.
They are caused by using a CUDA supported card and mitigated by turning CUDA hardware off.

So Adobe tells customers to purchase hardware that their software doesn't work properly with and they don't tell their customers.

What do you think should happen here?
Why do you think Adobe should be paid month in month out with bugs like this?

The Australia consumer law protects customers from companies that sell defective products.

It doesn't matter what the purchasing scheme is, Adobe have always released software with bugs and in the beta they basically say they don't have time to fix them. They only fix the easy ones and the hard important stuff gets swept under the carpet.

Walter, we should all get what we paid for, otherwise money shouldn't change hands. Car companies do recalls all the time, they fix issues no matter what the logistics or costs.



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Gary Huff
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 1:59:21 pm

[walter biscardi] "Oh right, so then I'm out about $275 instead of over $5000. Thanks for the clarification."

Adobe is trying to offer their software as a service now, as has been routinely pointed out by others already. If your Internet service suddenly slowed to a point where it was unusable for your work, and you had to switch providers, I don't think you'd appreciate such a smarmy response if you were required to shell out 50% of your remaining annual service commitment in order to switch.

You'd probably be livid.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 4:28:59 am

[David Lawrence] "This leads to an interesting question. On of the big supposed benefits of being forced to rent is that now, bug fixes will happen more quickly and new feature and bug fix timeframes can be announced in advance."

Bug fixes aren't going to be impacted (why would they?), but feature updates will be. W/CC the various Adobe teams can roll out feature updates anytime they want as opposed to having to hit an arbitrary deadline when (ready or not) all the software gets updated so a new CS version can come out.




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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 4:43:59 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Bug fixes aren't going to be impacted (why would they?), but feature updates will be. W/CC the various Adobe teams can roll out feature updates anytime they want as opposed to having to hit an arbitrary deadline when (ready or not) all the software gets updated so a new CS version can come out."

Agreed.

What remains unanswered is why (outside of the desire of DRM lock-in) Adobe won't offer a current perpetual version once per year to customers like me.

Want the cool new features subscribers got last week? Too bad. Either subscribe or wait until next year and pay the upgrade fee to catch up.

Honestly, this is how I believed the system would work when CC first launched and I'm pretty sure it's how Adobe described it all last year. I'd be perfectly fine with something like that.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
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twitter.com/dhl


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 5:33:57 am

[David Lawrence] "What remains unanswered is why (outside of the desire of DRM lock-in) Adobe won't offer a current perpetual version once per year to customers like me."

I read the explanation many times that under the CC subscription program we get faster updates without being charged, and many cited the Apple Store as an example of this model.

So that being the case, subscriptions are not a mandatory requirement to be able to offer updates without charging, they could have just done an "Adobe Store", offer downloads only, but you still keep the license.

What am I missing here?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 5:43:33 pm

[David Lawrence] "Honestly, this is how I believed the system would work when CC first launched and I'm pretty sure it's how Adobe described it all last year. I'd be perfectly fine with something like that."

My first guess is that Adobe wants to avoid versioning confusion and possibly compatibly issues that could come up from pretty much developing and selling two separate paths for each program. I originally thought like you did, but the more I read about Adobe's goals w/CC the more it felt like developing and selling both would be a headache for Adobe and consumers.


[Gustavo Bermudas] "So that being the case, subscriptions are not a mandatory requirement to be able to offer updates without charging, they could have just done an "Adobe Store", offer downloads only, but you still keep the license."

I think this has to do w/the Sarbanes–Oxley regulations. For example Apple used to have to charge iPod touch customers for iOS feature updates where as iPhone users were not charged because the iPhone users were on a subscription plan. What Apple has changed accounting wise to get arounds this I'm not sure but it's probably the same thing they've done so they haven't had to charge for the feature updates to FCPX. Apple's broad, and hardware based, revenue streams allow them freedom that companies like Adobe (which don't sell everything from TV shows to consumer electronics) don't have.




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Todd Kopriva
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 5:53:47 pm

> I think this has to do w/the Sarbanes–Oxley regulations. For example Apple used to have to charge iPod touch customers for iOS feature updates where as iPhone users were not charged because the iPhone users were on a subscription plan. What Apple has changed accounting wise to get arounds this I'm not sure but it's probably the same thing they've done so they haven't had to charge for the feature updates to FCPX.


Yes, the subscription model frees us from restrictions caused by Sarbanes–Oxley. This is all about when revenue is "recognized", with the upshot being that we couldn't release features for something that you had already paid us for in full up-front.

I am not speaking for Apple, but a common assessment is that they (as a hardware company that makes only a tiny fraction of its revenue from software) can painlessly defer revenue for software like FCPX, whereas Adobe (as a software company) would be in a much worse state if we deferred our software revenue.

I'm not an accountant or a lawyer, but as someone who designs, makes, and tests software, I know that this new model has _greatly_ freed us to do things at the right pace, as opposed to artificially locking software development and releases to a business cycle.

Of course, you'll believe it when you see it. And you'll be seeing it very soon from us on the After Effects team and even sooner from the Premiere Pro team.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 6:33:12 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Of course, you'll believe it when you see it. And you'll be seeing it very soon from us on the After Effects team and even sooner from the Premiere Pro team.
"


Obviously I'm talking from a consumer standpoint, but I always believed that release cycles were based on testing and getting the product ready for deployment with as little bugs as possible.

Do you think with this new scenario of frequent and faster updates, that we will be more susceptible to bigger bugs, like this new one from Premiere?


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 6:52:35 pm

> Do you think with this new scenario of frequent and faster updates, that we will be more susceptible to bigger bugs, like this new one from Premiere?


I think that the opposite is true.

Consider that if there is only one release every 18 months, and you have a feature that is 99% ready (but could use just a little more testing or tweaking) at the cut-off time for a release. There is understandable pressure to let that almost-but-not-quite ready feature out, rather than need to wait another 18 months to release it.

If, on the other hand, you can release the feature a month later in a small update, then the pressure to release prematurely goes away.

That's how we on the After Effects team are thinking already. It's why in the fall of this year you'll be seeing things from us that were almost ready this spring, but we decided to keep working on to make sure that they were of high enough quality to release.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Gary Huff
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 7:58:12 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "I think that the opposite is true."

Then how could an easily replicatable issue of this magnitude slip out on the maiden voyage of Creative Cloud? That seems to be pretty significant evidence that the opposite may not be true.


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 8:22:43 pm

> Then how could an easily replicatable issue of this magnitude slip out on the maiden voyage of Creative Cloud?


I am on the After Effects team and will leave it to my Premiere Pro counterparts to answer that.

But, I can say this, since I just talked with one of my coworkers on the Premiere Pro team: We do have a fix that is being tested now, and we will be releasing it quite soon. I can't give a specific date, because I don't want to have to make excuses if something makes us miss that by a day or two, but I can say that it is very few working days away. (Consider that we are all out next week for our one-week summer shutdown.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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David McGavran
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 10, 2013 at 2:36:35 pm

[Gary Huff] "[Todd Kopriva] "I think that the opposite is true."

Then how could an easily replicatable issue of this magnitude slip out on the maiden voyage of Creative Cloud? That seems to be pretty significant evidence that the opposite may not be true."


I will comment from the Premiere side. We missed it. We work hard and we try our best and we missed this one. No way to sugar coat it. However, we understand its importance. Lets talk again later...

Cheers

Dave

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Senior Engineering Manager Adobe Premiere Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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David McGavran
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 10, 2013 at 6:24:42 pm

This is now fixed. Please download the update.

Info Here:

http://blogs.adobe.com/premierepro/

Cheers

Dave

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Senior Engineering Manager Adobe Premiere Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 6:44:11 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "What Apple has changed accounting wise to get arounds this I'm not sure but it's probably the same thing they've done so they haven't had to charge for the feature updates to FCPX. Apple's broad, and hardware based, revenue streams allow them freedom that companies like Adobe (which don't sell everything from TV shows to consumer electronics) don't have."

Every software update seems to be free in the App Store, not just Apple's.
I've seen some making a version 2 and charging again, for example, Vitamin-R, and now they sell Vitamin-R 2, and that is considered a "new" app. It doesn't even overwrite your previous one.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 7:14:10 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] "Every software update seems to be free in the App Store, not just Apple's.
I've seen some making a version 2 and charging again, for example, Vitamin-R, and now they sell Vitamin-R 2, and that is considered a "new" app. It doesn't even overwrite your previous one."


I wonder this myself but my Google searches have not brought up any useful info. I wish I knew someone that was familiar with accounting regulations and software distribution so I could pick their brain.

The 'SOX' hurdles are real though as Adobe, Avid and Apple have all run into them and I'm curious to find out how Apple's App Store operates w/regards to the regulations.




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Todd Kopriva
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 7:18:12 pm

Sarbanes-Oxley rules apply to publicly traded companies that must report their revenue publicly.

Private companies don't have this concern and can do things differently.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 9:20:32 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Sarbanes-Oxley rules apply to publicly traded companies that must report their revenue publicly.

Private companies don't have this concern and can do things differently."


Good, and very relavent, point.




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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 6:41:17 am

[Andrew Kimery] "My first guess is that Adobe wants to avoid versioning confusion and possibly compatibly issues that could come up from pretty much developing and selling two separate paths for each program. I originally thought like you did, but the more I read about Adobe's goals w/CC the more it felt like developing and selling both would be a headache for Adobe and consumers."

There's no need for two separate development paths. The only difference between perpetual and subscription versions of the current applications are optional internet features and a monthly DRM check.

The technology and infrastructure are already in place for Adobe to easily offer both, if they want to.

I explain how it could work here:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/2803

A system like this would actually be easier for Adobe than what they're doing right now because their ongoing commitment to CS6 means they really are supporting two separate development branches.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 6:59:48 pm

[David Lawrence] "There's no need for two separate development paths. The only difference between perpetual and subscription versions of the current applications are optional internet features and a monthly DRM check.

The technology and infrastructure are already in place for Adobe to easily offer both, if they want to.

I explain how it could work here:"



I might be misunderstanding. In the link it sounds like you are talking about a loyalty buy out option where after X number of years/payments a user can opt out of CC and whatever version of the apps they have switch to a perpetual license and they are not eligible for any more feature updates until they rejoin CC. I think this is a good idea and Adobe should be looking into it.

In this thread though I thought you were talking about Adobe continuing to develop a perpetual license along side the CC version. So, hypothetically, CS8 perpetual would exist along side CS8 CC. This I think would be troublesome all around. Adobe would still be shackled by the artificial deadline of all the teams having to prepare for a single release date, users would most likely version confusion and project file sharing issues where Person X users CS8 CC which has features that Person Y, using CS8 perpetual, does not, and software support/bug fixes gets split as well. I also wouldn't be surprised to see users complaining that Adobe was intentionally sandbagging the perpetual version as a sneaky ploy to get people to switch to CC. It just seems like a giant headache from how I'm looking at it.




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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 1, 2013 at 7:16:39 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I might be misunderstanding. In the link it sounds like you are talking about a loyalty buy out option"

You're correct. In that thread I was explaining the technical mechanism that makes a loyalty buy-out option trivially simple to implement.

[Andrew Kimery] "In this thread though I thought you were talking about Adobe continuing to develop a perpetual license along side the CC version. So, hypothetically, CS8 perpetual would exist along side CS8 CC."

I actually started this thread to raise a couple different issues, apologies for not being more clear. Let me first address your point above re: perpetual licensing.

The point I wanted to make with the link is that the only difference between perpetual and subscribed versions of the core applications is DRM policy.

Subscription-based applications check-in with Adobe once/month to make sure rent is paid.

Perpetually licensed applications check-in with Adobe only once after purchase to authenticate.

Other than that, there's no meaningful difference between CS and CC.

Perhaps in the future this will change, but a meaningful change will require a constant internet connection; a move sure to anger even greater numbers of users.

A loyalty buy-out is a perpetual copy of the current CC core applications (minus optional internet services).

Adobe could easily offer a loyalty buy-out option using the technical mechanism I describe. However, If SOX or other accounting rules make this unfeasible, they could also use a similar mechanism to offer perpetual licenses for sale.

It could work like this:

Once/year Adobe offers the core applications in their current feature state as CSx. These are the exact same core applications as the current CC. These CSx applications would receive the same bug fixes during the year as CC, but any new CC features would not be made available until next year when they could be purchased as an upgrade.

There's no need for separate development branches:

CS7 is CC on 6/18/13
CS8 is CC on 6/18/14

etc.

The difference is that the CS applications are fully paid once in advance and will always work from that point on.

Make sense?

My other argument is that because Adobe no longer offers the option to buy perpetual licenses, they can no longer be judged as a regular software company.

Adobe now positions all its software as services. Adobe requires monthly payment for these software services. If payment stops or service is canceled, Adobe software stops working. There are no other options.

Therefore, Adobe places itself in the same category as any other utility service provider, i.e. water, electricity, cell, cable, ISP.

Therefore, Adobe sets itself up to be judged just as any other utility service provider for expected service uptime.

In this context, a mission critical bug is service downtime.

Would 30-days without water or electricity be acceptable? How about a week?

Why should a software service outage be any different?

There are true software services, but they are very different than what Adobe is offering with their core creative applications in CC.

True software services are remotely hosted and remotely run. Adobe CC does include true services, but they are not required by the core desktop applications.

If Adobe wants customers to think of desktop applications as services, they should be prepared for the consequences of actually being a service provider. That includes maintaining service uptime and offering refunds for extended service outages.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 2, 2013 at 6:34:53 am

[David Lawrence] Once/year Adobe offers the core applications in their current feature state as CSx. These are the exact same core applications as the current CC. These CSx applications would receive the same bug fixes during the year as CC, but any new CC features would not be made available until next year when they could be purchased as an upgrade.


I follow, I just don't agree that it's as straight forward as you make it sound. Once CS7 Perp and CS7 CC (for lack of a better term) hit the streets their paths will diverge. CS7 CC could get feature updates that make it CS7 CC projects not compatible with CS7 Perp which will inevitably lead to some degree of consumer confusion and frustration. Different feature sets could lead to different bugs so who should get priority during bug fixes? CC users or Perp users? Either way, someone isn't going to be happy.

What happens when both suites come out and a month later CC gets a sweet suite update (sorry, couldn't help myself)? I'm sure there will be many users that would complain that Adobe is intentionally sandbagging the perpetual license version in order to get more people to sign up for CC. Having to decide when a feature that is less than 100% but still 'good enough' to make it into the arbitrary date required for a perpetual license release would still be an issue and that seems like something Adobe's software engineers were happy to get away from.

Could Perp and Subscription licenses co-exist? Yes, but I think it would be messy for all parties involved and curtail some of the advantages Adobe says a subscription service would bring.



My other argument is that because Adobe no longer offers the option to buy perpetual licenses, they can no longer be judged as a regular software company.

Adobe now positions all its software as services. Adobe requires monthly payment for these software services. If payment stops or service is canceled, Adobe software stops working. There are no other options.

Therefore, Adobe places itself in the same category as any other utility service provider, i.e. water, electricity, cell, cable, ISP."


Adobe software isn't like a utility company or cable company though. Software bugs are software bugs so you can't ever expect it to be perfect. If Adobe's authentication servers go down for an extended period of time and users get locked out of their software that's one thing, but expecting a .0 release of a program to be bug free (which this thread seems to imply) is insane.

What happend to the days of cautiously updating and/or waiting until the first round of bug fixes? It seems like some people jumped into the latest version of Adobe's apps gleefully hoping they'd get burned so they could come onto the internet and complain about it.




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Rainer Schubert
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 12:48:41 pm

Bugs never will disappear. We all know.

With the old & fair perpetual licenses we did it always this way:
We upgradet (in case of a offered upgrade) on only ONE machine.
Then we tested the workflows and compatibilities for a few month, to be sure there are no breaking features.
And sometimes we have to wait till PlugIns or else are written for newer versions. Or the first bug-fixes.
After that (which took normally between 3 - 6 month or sometimes - in case of troubles - longer) we upgraded the rest of seats.
I wouldn´t do that different with CashCow (CC) (to which I never will subscribe - turned my back to Adobe already).
But I think it´s much harder to handle, as you always have to download the former versions also (they say, they provide them, but I don´t know how that works...).
So my interest in being always upgraded to newest level is not too big.
There where so many workflow-breaking upgrades in the past, or PlugIns that have to be adapted, or...
This "always up to date" promise is much overrated. More a NEG than a PRO for me. Had no problem with that in the past (without, that the cycles at Adobe where extremely long since they introduced the Suites)
Yes, it´s really a bit Beta-testing.

A little story about bugs and Adobe:
I remember a call to one of their service-people, because I had a problem with the visibility of layers in Illustrator in case of having two windows opened of the same document. At that time the two views where not synchronized when you changed the visibility of layers in one of the views (different than in PS for ex.).
Took me 3 mails (before the call), to make this person understand, what´s my problem. Must send him screenshots, etc.
After he understood, he told me:
That´s a very hard to do remove bug and it´s known since a long time. It will be removed some time in the future. But it will be a longer period as till the next upgrade (BtW: With this bug, the feature in the menue is nearly without sense - could be removed in my eyes)
That´s the kind of support (answers) I "like".
This bug still exists in my actual CS6. A year and 3 month after that call.

They are talking about all the great upgrades at Adobe.
But in the last decade they even were not able to synchronize things like layer-functions, path-handes, GUIs... between the Core-Apps.
All the Apps (they bought) are still feeling as different Apps - not "one world". And that´s also the problem with their "cloud" named "overwhelming" solution.
They promise a lot, what this "cloud" could be, one day in the future. But for the moment cloud-functionality is just a Gimmick.
Seems, like we have to give them a credit to built something, they are dreaming off...


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Dan Stewart
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 8:40:45 pm

So legally, if Adobe hit the upgrade button on a poisoned version and all their corralled users blow their current gig - do Adobe get vaporized?

Because if so I think I now why the management just sold all their shares..



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Walter Soyka
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 8:43:59 pm

[Dan Stewart] "f Adobe hit the upgrade button on a poisoned version and all their corralled users blow their current gig - do Adobe get vaporized?"

If I'm understanding your concern correctly, this is a misunderstanding of how CC works.

Adobe decides when updates are available, but the users decide when to install the updates on their own systems thereafter.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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Paul King
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 28, 2013 at 11:49:30 pm

Maybe so

But what if Adobe neglects to inform users about a known issue then it may be a different matter.

Take the multicam issue. They knew about it and didn't add it to the known issues list.

If Adobe want the revenue stream that comes from a subscription then they have to accept all the other policies that come with it.

I'll give you an example here:

We use MYOB for accounting. They charge an outrageous upgrade price that also includes support. We tried to use their support of several occasions, however we didn't even receive a call back. MYOB had to refund 30% of our upgrade fee because of lack of service.

In Australia we have Vodafone as one of our cell phone providers. Their network was poor and as such, enabled thousands of subscribers to exit their contracts early without any penalty.

Adobe have to same culpability here, just not sure if they realise it yet.



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Ricardo Marty
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 29, 2013 at 3:12:22 am

Thats probably why adobe is more expensive in OZ and the EU. They figure they charge more so in case someone has a case they wont lose that much.

Its sick

Ricardo Marty.....


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Gary Huff
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 1, 2013 at 7:31:24 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "Thats probably why adobe is more expensive in OZ and the EU. They figure they charge more so in case someone has a case they wont lose that much."

That and OZ and the EU customers area already used to paying more, so they shouldn't notice that Adobe has suddenly slashed their upfront costs dramatically.


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 1, 2013 at 7:44:19 pm

well sorry, some of us did

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Lance Moody
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 8, 2013 at 8:52:31 pm

Still no fix? Nice job Adobe!



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Todd Kopriva
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 8, 2013 at 8:59:35 pm

Very soon.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 8, 2013 at 9:18:04 pm

[Lance Moody] "Still no fix? Nice job Adobe!"

I expect the patch will be released either today or tomorrow, since it's already been cleared.

What's interesting is Adobe has known about this bug since before Premiere was released on the 17th. It was held back because it was too close to the release of CC.:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/5465672#5465672

To Adobe's credit, they do admit they screwed up here and hopefully in the future, mission critical bugs like this will be prioritized better. Also deployment was delayed a week because they were off for the holiday. Hopefully that will not be an issue again either.

Still little comfort for those who depend on multi-cam and have lost hours or days of work. Would such a delay be acceptable from other service providers? Adobe needs to seriously step up their game if that's the business model they want their customers to accept.

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Lance Moody
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 9, 2013 at 6:29:59 pm

Very soon, like after a week long vacation and then maybe take a look at a problem that was reported long ago and then like totally mean to get on it, man, seriously. And then, you know, very soon.

Maybe.

Not surprisingly, the credit card charges for Creative Cloud go through on a rigid and inflexible schedule.



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Morten Ranmar
ANOTHER Mission Critical Bug In Premiere Pro CC
on Jun 30, 2013 at 7:48:38 am

Have a look at my post on the Pr forum: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/3/943054

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 10, 2013 at 6:21:35 pm

[David Lawrence] "How quickly will Adobe's fix become available?"

Hi David,
The fix is available today with the Premiere Pro CC (7.0.1) update. Please check it out.

More details: http://blogs.adobe.com/davtechtable/2013/07/whats-new-in-premiere-pro-cc-an...

Thanks,
Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
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David Lawrence
Re: Mission Critical Bug Found In Premiere Pro CC
on Jul 10, 2013 at 8:55:58 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "The fix is available today with the Premiere Pro CC (7.0.1) update. Please check it out. "

Excellent news, thanks Kevin.

Any thoughts you can publicly share about how this incident is being viewed within Adobe with regard to how mission critical bug fixes will be deployed in the future?

For example, we know this bug was known within Adobe before the CC release on 6/17, and a fix was cleared by 7/1. Will future mission critical bug fixes be released as soon as they're cleared?

For subscribers who lost 15 business days of productivity on their rental plan, is Adobe considering any compensation (for example, one-month free service)?

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