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Any Cloud Plus Points At All?

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Ben Mullins
Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 2:55:19 pm

Hi,

There are a lot of posts on this forum against CC and although I agree with many of them it would be interesting to hear from anyone who thinks CC is a positive, even preferable, move. If we are lacking in supporters perhaps some of those against would like to look at it from a positive point of view, purely out of interest. P.S. - Please nobody from Adobe respond, I've had all the corporate garbage shoved in to my ears that I can take thank you.

Ben.



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Steve Connor
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 3:05:42 pm

I've never owned a copy of CS so I started subscribing last year so it's saved me that upfront investment. Obviously I don't have that option to buy any more, but it was useful for me.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 3:31:20 pm

Aharon Rabinowitz gives a good summary of some pros (and cons) here:
http://allbetsareoff.com/2013/06/an-update-on-creative-cloud/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Ben Mullins
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 3:31:31 pm

Steve Conner
I've never owned a copy of CS so I started subscribing last year so it's saved me that upfront investment.

Yes me too, I couldn't afford the initial layout so a monthly cost worked well.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 3:45:24 pm

[Ben Mullins] "Yes me too, I couldn't afford the initial layout so a monthly cost worked well."

Have you ever heard of a credit card? Buy CS6 for zero money upfront, create your own payment plan - even at 18% interest, for a $1500 purchase paid off over 2 years the cost is less than a CC subscription.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 4:44:22 pm

Arf! that's great.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 4:45:27 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Buy CS6 for zero money upfront, create your own payment plan - even at 18% interest, for a $1500 purchase paid off over 2 years the cost is less than a CC subscription."

In this scenario, you would end up paying more. To pay off $1,500 in 2 years at 18% you're looking at $75/month (compared to $50/month for new CC users).


[Richert Goyette] "they are defending the company because they are promised regular updates, which we have always gotten anyways. Apple's App Store has been a model for what Adobe could have done"

This is actually a much more complex problem than you're giving it credit for. Under the Sarbanes/Oxley legislation there are a lot of stipulations for how companies can provide/charge for upgrades. Because of that legislation essentially all the big A's went to a major release cycle (i.e. CS4, CS5, FCS3, MC, etc.) and then during the length of that software's life they do "bug fixes." They can't actually offer a heavy dose of new features legally without charging us again. So ultimately you only get a new UI or additional features (audio mixers, multicam, etc.) with a big unveil.

Apple's App Store allowed Apple to get out of that race and whenever they want to update FCPX they just push out the update to the app store - no charge, no legal issues, and the users gets tons of new features. In the last 2 years since FCPX has been out Apple has pushed more updates to it then it did to FCP in a comparable time window. And it's hard to compare Apple to Adobe. Apple makes about 1-2% of their yearly revenue from their pro software offerings. So if FCPX bombs out it won't impact their bottom line at all. So Apple is in a position to take different chances than Avid, Autodesk, and Adobe.

Adobe is doing something similar with the CC as Apple's Apple Store from the legal perspective. You can rant against the monthly subscription fee....that's fine. But Adobe will no longer be tied to NAB/IBC release times. With the CC they can push out an bug fix or a major feature update at any time. User will be paid up already and can download the feature when it's convenient for them in their pipeline. If Adobe approaches the CC like Apple has the app store I expect more updates and features pushed out to us faster, not less as many on here argue. Adobe won't need to prioritize bug fix vs. feature set as they can now do both at any time legally without penalty to the user (i.e. making us pay for a CS5.5 or CS6 or CS6.5). I expect the stability of the video apps to get stronger as well since part of Adobe's team can be working on squashing bugs while another part of the team works on features. When either is ready, they just release it on the CC. Before the CC they would have to show great features every NAB or else people wouldn't upgrade. Starting this summer they can just roll out the feature when it's ready while concurrently squashing the instability or error problems that plague all software.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Herb Sevush
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 4:53:35 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "In this scenario, you would end up paying more. To pay off $1,500 in 2 years at 18% you're looking at $75/month (compared to $50/month for new CC users)."

Your correct. as opposed to $54 month for 3 years. In either event you end up with something your $49 CC subscription doesn't give you -a perpetual license. My point was that CC didn't introduce a low barrier to entrance situation - mastercard beat them to it many years ago.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 4:56:48 pm

[Herb Sevush] "In either event you end up with something your $49 CC subscription doesn't give you -a perpetual license"

I know. I was just picking on you for it. I went for the low hanging argument! :-) But yes, you pay off CS6 from your Visa/Mastercard and it's still lying around for awhile capable of doing work. Not so on the CC. You don't pay, you don't play.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 6:34:26 pm

My Mastercard is 9.99%. Gotta be better than CC with nothing at the end.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Herb Sevush
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 7:09:30 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "My Mastercard is 9.99%. Gotta be better than CC with nothing at the end."

I was trying to show that credit cards worked even in a worst case scenario - but your right, for most people the case for self financing as opposed to CC is even stronger.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 6:25:01 pm

Not if you need to buy the Master Collection.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 7:07:26 pm

[Brandon Cordy] "Not if you need to buy the Master Collection."

Previous to CC, you could buy Master Collection with a credit card and pay it back as fast or slow as your monthly income permitted, with the knowledge that at the end of 2 years you could own it forever and that future upgrades would be about 1/4 the price. Over a 5 year period, with upgrades, you'd average less than CC, you'd have flexible monthly payments to allow for fallow periods, you'd have perpetual licenses you could use forever even if you never bought anything from Adobe again, and'd you'd have increased your credit score. While their are many good arguments to be made for CC, low barrier to entry is NOT one of them, unless you were to stop using all Adobe products in a year or less. And for anyone interested in some of the smaller Adobe packages the math for CC is much worse.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 8:32:54 pm

I did the math before I bought a CC subscription.

Adobe decided to go to updates once a year a while back (CS5 in 2010, CS5.5 in 2011, CS6 in 2012). Assuming I bought every update (which had to be considered as I knew I was working with people & companies that did update every version), it would take approximately 27 years for the costs to catch up with each other buying the Master Collection and updating every new version ($2500+$529*[x-1]) versus subscribing to Creative Cloud at the regular rate ($600*x).

http://fooplot.com/plot/ik6z3pp7si

If I skipped every other version, the math actually doesn't change much considering Adobe's last pricing models for perpetual software, as an upgrade from CS5 to CS6 is just about double one from CS5.5 to CS6.

Now, discounts (say, for Amazon - my starting CS price is actually $100 off the Adobe price) and special pricing changes things of course, but I'm actually running CC on the NAB special ($29.99 for the first year), so it's true for the other side too.

This obviously doesn't apply to people who only need what used to be Production Premium, but I'm not one of those people. SO the CC pricing works for me.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 9:12:11 pm

[Brandon Cordy] "This obviously doesn't apply to people who only need what used to be Production Premium, but I'm not one of those people. SO the CC pricing works for me."

I wasn't arguing pricing, I was arguing "low barrier to entry." I too believe that CC is reasonably priced, but I don't believe it makes it financially easier to start purchasing in most cases - if you are just beginning and want the whole production premium package and might drop out of the market after more than a month but less than a year - in that case CC has a definite lower barrier to entry - otherwise, not so much.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 9:36:48 pm

When I said "low barrier to entry", I was specifically talking about price. If you were to use a credit card, you'd still need to make larger payments upfront in order to not incur heavy financing charges after putting the whole $2500 or so on the card at once.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 9:43:39 pm

[Brandon Cordy] "When I said "low barrier to entry", I was specifically talking about price."

I thought you were talking about initial outlay and monthly costs, which is not the same thing as final price. The barrier to entry is up front costs - if you have to Pay $2500 for Production Premium upfront, that would be a barrier for many people, which is why $50 a month seems like a good deal, and I agree it is a good deal but not any better than paying $50, $150 or $25 month depending on you monthly situation, which is something you can do with self financing. Especially for someone who is in the business long term, there is no real financial advantage to renting CC when you can mortgage CS.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 10:25:08 pm

I was talking about total costs as well as initial costs. Paying only $50 (or less) a month on a $2400 credit card bill isn't all that good of an idea given most credit card consumers' interest rates.

I'm not hung up on needing to "own" my copy of the software; it's actually more important to me that I'm constantly replacing it and staying up to date. It's less like renting vs. mortgaging a home as it is like leasing vs. financing a car/cars - some people prefer to lease because they always want the latest models. They understand that they don;t get to own the car at the end of the three year period (there is the option to buy, which is another discussion, and I know many people hope that will become a reality with the Adobe products) Now with a car, I am nto one of those people - as long as the car works, I'm fine - but with software, I prefer (and in many cases, need) to run what's current and up to date.

As I said before, it would be nice if they still offered perpetual licensing for those who don't want to change over to the new model, but for me, myself, and I, it works.


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Richert Goyette
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 3:55:07 pm

Ben:

I do not understand the posters on this forum who defend this switch to subscription only. They did not seem to have complaints with the Creative Suite CS6 permanent license but now that Adobe has pulled the rug out from under us, they are defending the company because they are promised regular updates, which we have always gotten anyways. Apple's App Store has been a model for what Adobe could have done--and now we hear that Adobe is this it for accounting reasons or to better serve their customers.

This is about Adobe having a constant, predictable revenue stream. Nothing else. The CS6 products are mature. How many more gizmos do we really need?

If you have seen the Adobe CEO scurrying around like a rat to avoid answering questions in Australia, then you know you can't trust them with your daughters or your software.

Rich



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Ben Mullins
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 5:18:41 pm

I think the reason for me posting this has been a little misunderstood. I am not a fan of a CC-only model at all, in fact when MC7 ships I intend to cancel my subscription with Adobe. I just though that since the negatives have been discussed at length here it might be interesting to look at any positives.



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Ryan Holmes
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 5:36:12 pm

[Ben Mullins] "I just though that since the negatives have been discussed at length here it might be interesting to look at any positives."

I think the Cow members who do support or embrace CC are already using it. There isn't much to be gained by being on this forum for them. This forum seems to be most frequented by those who don't want any part of the CC. So in a sense it creates a bit of an echo chamber.

Maybe the Cow admins should change the name of the forum to Adobe Creative Cloud: Venting! :-)

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 5:46:35 pm

@Ryan: The people we are really talking to are at Adobe. They are certainly reading this, they just really can't say much we haven't heard already. I think speaking to them is certainly worth it. Hopefully something positive beyond venting will come of it.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Ben Mullins
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 5:54:02 pm

Yeah not too much of a debate really! But maybe there isn't much to actually debate. Jim makes a good point about talking to Adobe via this though. I certainly hope they're listening.



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Todd Kopriva
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 5:55:53 pm

Ben, you do make it harder to have a conversation when you begin a thread telling us not to respond.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 5:58:47 pm

Hi Todd, I knew you were out there. Thanks for joining.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 6:01:51 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Ben, you do make it harder to have a conversation when you begin a thread telling us not to respond."

LOL!! That's a good point. :-)

While I know that Adobe staffers are on here interacting (thank you by the way!), the most official approach is to post your request/features using Adobe's site for that:
https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

I have no doubt that what Todd and others on the Cow read get taken back to Adobe's meetings and discussed. But if you have feedback you should still use Adobe's official channel as I'm sure Jim and others have done.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Ben Mullins
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 6:25:15 pm

No disrespect to you personally Todd, or others from Adobe on here, but when you guys do post you can't address the primary concerns that people have with CC, so why post? Again I'm not trying to be rude and I understand why you can't respond to certain specific concerns but the official response pushed out by corporate Adobe has been pretty insulting to be honest. Up until all this I really appreciated the fact that people from Adobe would actually interact with their user base (unlike Apple), and I still appreciate it, but with regards to the CC debate your hands are clearly tied.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 6:22:54 pm

seeing as how my monitor is covered in spittle from screaming in tongues at adobe I should pitch in -

log in for full prefs layouts keyboard shortcuts on any copy of PPro7 - awesome.

drilling live into other open PPro projects on the network and pulling assets out - that sounds quite seriously handy in a group environment.

The Lumetri deep colour engine now living in PPro - thats going to get increasingly mental you'd have to think. People should catch the moviola webinar on Speedgrade - it was very good.

PPro 7 itself is a heavy, heavy narcotic draw to CC, I want that software quite terribly badly - I'm cutting game trailers all this week on PPro6 - it has flaws but banging between it and AE is a dream - I mean literally just jumping between the two suites.
Adobe GUI conventions FTW - tilde key came from God there.

The new AE with cinema 4D pipeline - that's just mental.

Behance - you can set up a very very nice portfolio website there - there are some lovely mograph/video templates. It's a doddle to run and it would cost 100 quid otherwise.

If you've ever done DTP in Quark or Indesign, you could probably start selling yourself as a low to mid web designer using Muse.
Watch the Fuse demo sessions - that's what people are effectively doing - you could setup B+B websites, small businesses that kind of stuff - off a fortnights training in muse.
Now you can bill a certain class of client for websites.

The Kuler thing is really cute. who doesn't want to use that and feel arty.

Adobe probably mean it when they say it will alter their fundamental approach to buildout and delivery of updates, also that there will be a lot less ZOOOWIIEE - look at me - tinsel features, reading it, you can see the engineers feel rather emotionally invested in getting away from having to churn out that kind of stuff. Alternatively, maybe shantanyu just lays off a ton of software devs in year two or three.
The woman on bloomberg asked him about that one point blank. He looked annoyed and sounded inauthentic. But at this point I figure thats what he looks and sounds like 24/7.

having the whole enchilada... although as Aharon Rabinowitz points out, we're paying for stuff we very likely don't know how to use - seems a quite an up sell. Although Muse looks very do-able.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 7:52:46 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Alternatively, maybe shantanyu just lays off a ton of software devs in year two or three. The woman on bloomberg asked him about that one point blank. He looked annoyed and sounded inauthentic. But at this point I figure thats what he looks and sounds like 24/7."

Whatever happened with the CC pricing overseas? Did that get "fixed"?


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 6:22:51 pm

When people say "the CS products are mature"...I really beg to differ.

Not that they're not usable and (in some cases) relatively stable, but there's a good number of features each could stand to gain. Full edibility and use of filters in CMYK mode in Photoshop would be nice for a start. Gradients in text in Illustrator. And Premiere certainly has a ways to go.

As for the regular updates, Adobe people's statements re: the move to CC changing this is that they would be able to release what would amount to major release features when they're ready versus waiting until the following spring. This is especially important in web, where everything changes at a rapid pace, but it has benefits for video production as well.


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 7, 2013 at 6:17:20 pm

I think it's great. All but one of the designers and media artists I know in person either thinks it's good or is indifferent to it.

Benefits? Easier point of entry for those who can't afford the whole suite (and don't like to pay credit card interest), easier for Adobe to update & innovate their tools quickly as they've promised (particularly their web tools they bought from Macromedia, which at this point are falling behind newer and rapidly changing web trends), being able to run the apps on two machines at once, (once it gets up and running) more cloud storage, Adobe Story (which is a pretty complex piece of work but fairly useful)

I wouldn't be opposed to releasing a version of the software one step behind for perpetual license purchase, but I'm seeing people (not here but all over) personally insult Adobe employees, joke about killing the management, and asking the DOJ to investigate Adobe as a monopoly (?) - some of the reactions are going a bit far (I actually felt the same way about FCPX, and was half afraid to tell anyone I liked it when I finally got a chance to use it for fear that I'd be considered some sort of a hack). I do think the educational volume licensing needs to be reevaluated, however.


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andy lewis
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 8, 2013 at 2:08:32 am

"Benefits? Easier point of entry for those who can't afford the whole suite (and don't like to pay credit card interest)"

Regardless of the accuracy of the calculations - interest was taken into account. Herb is saying that paying for CS on a credit card gives you a low barrier to entry just like CC. In the long-term though, it's a much better deal as:

The price works out similar (including credit card interest!) but at the end of the 2 years you own the software.

I don't know if that is correct as my maths is terrible and I'm only half way through my second coffee. Apologies.


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 8, 2013 at 1:54:54 pm

I did not take credit card interest into account in my calculations.

If it were included, for the average credit card, you're adding something like $20 a month in (averaged, because obviously they will start high and end low) interest payments if you're only paying $50 a month on a $2500 credit card bill, which will take you 50 months to pay off. Never mind that, in 50 months' time, you will need to have upgraded twice if you were skipping every other version, so you're adding $1000 every other year to the card total.

The "you don't own it" part is not an issue for me. Especially not when I'm getting more than just the Creative Suite (read: other services) when I'm paying for CC. Now, if the updates don't come at a faster pace as promised (or if they aren't substantial fixes of issues with the programs), I may start to look at the company a little sideways, but I'm OK for now. And waiting for them to fix the sync transfer, lol.


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Greg Andonian
Re: Any Cloud Plus Points At All?
on Jun 8, 2013 at 9:56:57 pm

Right now, the biggest plus point I see to the Cloud-only decision is that it's shining a new light on other programs that have been overlooked, like the ones on this list. And that will help bring about more competition and better products all around- like that Pixelmator update with support for layer styles that's coming later this year.

Even if Adobe changes the cloud model to a point where it becomes widely accepted, it would still be nice to see more respectable competition to keep them on their toes.

Greg Andonian, a.k.a. Derek

______________________________________________
Facebook.com/creativecloudboycott

adobe2014.tumblr.com

#adobe2014


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