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An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team

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walter biscardi
An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 8:07:37 pm

So this doesn't get buried in all the "discussion" threads about the Cloud below....

http://www.adobe.com/cc/letter.html

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Greg Jones
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 8:21:28 pm

I know a lot of people are up in arms about them 'abandoning' the perpetual license, but at least for my company, the Creative Cloud has been great. As long as they don't do something crazy like raise the monthly fee to $59.95 or higher, I think I'll be good with it. Adobe has been incredible with feedback of their apps, much more than any other company I can think of. I've never seen a company where an engineer asks me to send them a project file because I'm having a problem, and I'm a small company. I look forward to the future with Adobe. And if they get too big for their britches, I'll find another company.

Greg Jones
D7,Inc.

Greg Jones
Orlando,Fl.
http://www.d7-inc.com


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Morten Ranmar
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 8:38:48 pm

Me idiot purchased Subscription for CS6 - what am I going to get? A long nose...

NEVER trust any software company is the lesson learned!

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Richard Cardonna
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 8:41:43 pm

If I where you id buy the cs6 perpetual lic before its gone.

Richard


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Morten Ranmar
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 8:47:01 pm

I did get CS6 "perpetual" - and Subscription should have given me free updates for 2 years - including the non-existent CS7...

Now instead, I have to pay up again!

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Petros Kolyvas
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 8:48:12 pm

[Greg Jones] " As long as they don't do something crazy like raise the monthly fee to $59.95 or higher,"

But that's the thing... what happens when they do? After year 1, my small shops licenses are expected to cost $69.99 each. It's not the end of the world, but what if every vendor I used for software did the same thing and doubled my prices on the spot and didn't guarantee they wouldn't do the same again next year?

I'm not trying to be an angry voice of dissent, I just think the great unknown of what it will cost and what limits will be imposed on us in a perpetual payment system are risky.

The argument that "everyone's moving in that direction" doesn't mean a) it's the right direction or b) we have to support that move with our dollars (which is unfortunately all the controllers of a corporation understand.) The devs, they probably just want to make great software.

--
There is no intuitive interface, not even the nipple. It's all learned. - Bruce Ediger


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 8:55:35 pm

[Petros Kolyvas] "But that's the thing... what happens when they do?"

Nobody can guarantee anything but if existing cloud subscriptions are any indication, it's unlikely. Saleforce, Google Apps, QuickBooks Online Edition (QBOE) are all example of fairly stable pricing over many years; in case of Saleforce and QBOE, these are virtual monopolies in their market segments, yet the pricing is stable.

Again, this is not a guarantee, but hopefully an indication.

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Engineer
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Petros Kolyvas
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 9:01:48 pm

A fair point Alex. Users who do opt for the cloud will hope so! ;)

--
There is no intuitive interface, not even the nipple. It's all learned. - Bruce Ediger


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Tim Vaughan
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 9:09:07 pm

The thing is, most of those companies still offer software purchases. I "own" QB 2011. I'm a small biz, and don't need to upgrade or have the latest software. My accountant has that problem, but not me. Heck, I could still be operating off 2005 if I wanted. The fact that Adobe is taking away physical ownership is what is wrong with this picture.

Tim
Apple XRAID, XServe, 2008 2x3 GHz Quad-Core MacPro, Macbook Pro, XSAN, FCP Studio (7), AVID Media Composer, Adobe Production Premium, Maxon Cinema 4d, AJA Kona 3, Flanders Scientific Monitors, Panasonic HPX250's, Kessler Crane, Glidecam.....
Beer fridge fully loaded.


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 9:19:30 pm

[Tim Vaughan] "The thing is, most of those companies still offer software purchases"

Of the ones I mentioned - only one, Intuit.

That said, it's a good point: yes, you can run, say, QB 2009 Pro on Win7 although you may have problems exporting PDF files (which makes it near useless), won't be able to do electronic banking, and won't be able to subscribe to their online payroll service. (Intuit's feature sunsetting policies and upgrade pricing are straight out of business owner's top 10 worst nightmares.)

Despite that, their cloud subscription (QBOE) is fairly stable, which makes me hopeful that Adobe's rental prices will remain fair as well.


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Angelo Lorenzo
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 9:30:07 pm

I think another good point for business owners and freelancers, for those in the US at least, is that the Creative Cloud subscription can be written off in full each year on taxes, rather than a business asset that is depreciated partially. This should somewhat offset the higher operating cost for those who weren't use to upgrading every version or those with low volume licenses.

For those with locked down machines, Adobe has hinted at some flexibility for enterprise customers who live behind thick firewalls.

--------------------
Angelo Lorenzo

Need to encode ProRes on your Windows PC?
Introducing ProRes Helper, an awesome little app that makes it possible
Fallen Empire Digital Production Services - Los Angeles
RED transcoding, on-set DIT, and RED Epic rental services
Fallen Empire - The Blog
A blog dedicated to filmmaking, the RED workflow, and DIT tips and tricks
Can your post production question fit in a tweet? Follow me on Twitter


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Morten Ranmar
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 9:39:49 pm

so can an upgrade - and you would have saved 60%

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Richard Cardonna
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 9:40:05 pm

But cc lowers the value of a business. whence one had more than a couple of licenses say 6k in licences now the business is worth a 2/3 less.


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Angelo Lorenzo
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 6, 2013 at 9:52:08 pm

True, but assets have to be maintained to be factored into the valuation of a company. If it's a big concern for a business owner who has CS6 licenses and plans to stay with Adobe, they may want to liquidate that asset before an analyst considers it out-of-date.

Not belittling your point because it's a good one. It's a decision some people will have to make.

--------------------
Angelo Lorenzo

Need to encode ProRes on your Windows PC?
Introducing ProRes Helper, an awesome little app that makes it possible
Fallen Empire Digital Production Services - Los Angeles
RED transcoding, on-set DIT, and RED Epic rental services
Fallen Empire - The Blog
A blog dedicated to filmmaking, the RED workflow, and DIT tips and tricks
Can your post production question fit in a tweet? Follow me on Twitter


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Peter Wiley
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 7, 2013 at 1:31:43 am

Section 179 deductions allow many businesses to take the full cost of software in the first year of ownership, so I am not sure this is the best argument.


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Richard Cardonna
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 7, 2013 at 2:45:26 am

I am not talking about deductions i am talking about assets. In the old pre cc if a company had perpetual licenses and sold there company the value of tjose licenses would be part of the sales price, now since the cc your licenses are worth very little and your cc is only good for tax deduction before it was good for both.

Richard


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Angelo Lorenzo
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 7, 2013 at 9:15:23 pm

Richard, speak to your accountant. Pre-paid rental and leases may also count towards the valuation of a company.

--------------------
Angelo Lorenzo

Need to encode ProRes on your Windows PC?
Introducing ProRes Helper, an awesome little app that makes it possible
Fallen Empire Digital Production Services - Los Angeles
RED transcoding, on-set DIT, and RED Epic rental services
Fallen Empire - The Blog
A blog dedicated to filmmaking, the RED workflow, and DIT tips and tricks
Can your post production question fit in a tweet? Follow me on Twitter


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Richard Cardonna
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 7, 2013 at 9:52:07 pm

No it doesnt. You cant have an asset that you dont own. I could only deduct the rental as a business expense.

Richard


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Angelo Lorenzo
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 8, 2013 at 6:30:48 am

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. In many countries, pre-paid rent and insurances are considered assets and can be kept on the books as such.

If I prepay for a year of Creative Cloud, I could use it as an asset for valuation. It would be volatile, but it would count.

--------------------
Angelo Lorenzo

Need to encode ProRes on your Windows PC?
Introducing ProRes Helper, an awesome little app that makes it possible
Fallen Empire Digital Production Services - Los Angeles
RED transcoding, on-set DIT, and RED Epic rental services
Fallen Empire - The Blog
A blog dedicated to filmmaking, the RED workflow, and DIT tips and tricks
Can your post production question fit in a tweet? Follow me on Twitter


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Herb Sevush
Re: An Open Letter from Adobe Creative Cloud Team
on May 7, 2013 at 2:18:14 am

(I posted much of this as a reply in a thread on the FCPX or not forum but I would like to post it here as well.)

Walter, it's a lovely manifesto and it might even make sense for those heavily involved with Illustrator and a lot of their design applications, but for a video editor interested in PPro, AE and Audition non of this "style synchronicity" matters, it wouldn't apply to me at all.

What this does demonstrate, once again, is how little Adobe cares about being a leader in video editing. This was always my problem with them as a company, but it seemed like they had responded to the opening given to them by Apple and were determined to make PPro the pre-eminent NLE, not just the little brother to their design applications. Apparently this was never really in their corporate nature.

So now we all know that whatever improvements Adobe may make to PPro they will always see it as a part, and not the leading part, of their design business, which means that when push comes to shove the interests of video editors will come behind the interests of designers and mograph artists. This doesn't mean it's not worth considering, but this is the perspective that it should be seen from.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Martin
Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 7, 2013 at 2:42:07 am

There's been a lot of angst & cheering about Adobe's CC of late on this forum and others. I can see both points of view and don't passionately subscribe to either camp. Nor am I a passionate about Adobe. I am passionate about delivering the best creative service I can to my clients. All of the tools that are available to us are just that: tools.

The real test of which one(s) to use is simple for me:
  • Is it the best creative tool for serving my clients?
  • Does it work with my existing infrastructure /workflow?
  • What's the cost/benefit analysis?
  • Will it make me more (or less) profitable than alternatives?

For me, it's not an emotional decision. It's just business (cue the Godfather music here).

On the most important part of the equation, I prefer editing in Premier much more than I did in FCP7. For me, it's faster and better. I like the integration with other Adobe products.

While I prefer perpetual licenses for my business over CC, the reality is that the cost difference is pretty small for most professional users. Especially when you consider that just a few short years ago, creative software cost many multiples more than they do now. I would argue the cost of software is a smaller % of sales than it has ever been for the overwhelming majority of pro users.

And switching from one platform to another is a part of business. For me, the progression was (and I'm showing my age here!): Linear deck to deck, NewTek Video toaster, Media100xr, FCP 2-7 and now Adobe Premiere.

The point of this long post is that there's always another production app waiting in the wings. If the one you're using becomes unacceptable for any reason (cost, functionality, workflow, customer service or any other reason that matters to you) the transition period/learning curve to something new, while a bit cumbersome, generally isn't insurmountable.

If anything, the making a regular switch can be very healthy! In my case, as I learn how to use Premiere, I'm watching COW tutorials regularly and learning new things in the process. New ideas that bring new energy and creativity to my work.

So for me and my company, I plan to stick with Adobe for now. If at some point they get stupid, stop innovating or get crazy with their prices, I'll look at my options. And I'm sure I'll have options. I waited over a year for Apple to do something about FCP 7. When I didn't like what they did, it didn't take long to make the change.

If I need to switch from Adobe, the first thing I'll do is look at how export projects to another platform and go from there. If there's not a good export option, when legacy project come up, I'll buy a month or two of a cc subscription and take care of my client just like I always have.

Just my 2 cents...

Steve Martin
Omni Productions
Orlando, FL

Production is fun - but lets not forget: Nobody ever died on the video table!


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Petros Kolyvas
Re: Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 7, 2013 at 3:26:18 am

[Steve Martin] "If anything, the making a regular switch can be very healthy! In my case, as I learn how to use Premiere, I'm watching COW tutorials regularly and learning new things in the process. New ideas that bring new energy and creativity to my work. "

I think that's the thing; I've always moved around. Premiere to FCP back to Premiere. Cubase to Samplitude to Logic. Shake to AE (backwards I know.) I often wonder if users are reading more emotion into my own posts than exists therein. Change is not just great, it's a fundamental truth about almost everything in the universe and I agree fully, it forces us to break out of habits and challenge ourselves in new ways.

I also think the arrogance of "our way or the highway" in the era of almost infinite choice is shortsighted at best — cost, licensing, workflow or otherwise.

There are so many interesting tools and so many exciting developments, the options are limitless really.

Having said that, I don't believe it has to be "just business" and that a business without thought, heart or soul is eventually seen for what it is: lifeless.

Creative Cloud or not, FCPX or not, the editors and the creatives here are very passionate people and that bodes well for the future, no matter whose software we're using.

--
There is no intuitive interface, not even the nipple. It's all learned. - Bruce Ediger


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walter biscardi
Re: Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 7, 2013 at 12:48:06 pm

Nice reasonable response Steve. Now duck! :)

It's funny I posted a blog on my site about this last night and got so many comments of being a reasonable way of looking at things rather than just HELL NO YOU WON'T TAKE MY BOX AWAY!

The one thing I completely forgot about until I was reminded this morning is that we'll be seeing updates coming out very rapidly to respond to issues. Instead of holding back on a bunch of fixes until 2 or 3 times per year so they can make a big press announcement and drive sales, releases will be coming sometimes multiple times per month.

The other thing people completely forget is that Adobe, Apple, Avid, Autodesk and everyone else is made up of people. I'm fortunate to know a lot of these folks across all the companies and they're not lifeless mechanical robots. These are very creative people who have a passion for the tools and what we all do.

The final thing to remember is the Creative Cloud is evolving and not a concrete end all. It's not like Apple when they completely switched the workflow and said that's it. This is a new delivery method for the software, but we still get to keep the same tools with a much improved workflow.

For me if it was Creative Cloud is all you get and you must keep using the same tools, that would suck. But CC is a much improved version of Premiere Pro that not only addresses many of the annoyances with the interface but has a greatly improved responsiveness to the overall system. If Creative Cloud gives us access to continually improving and efficient tools that are released continuously instead of a couple times per year, that's a plus for everyone.

Now what's the betting line on how many total threads we'll have this week for the Creative Cloud The Sky Is Falling camp.........

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Steve Martin
Re: Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 7, 2013 at 1:12:02 pm

Thanks Walter - I'll be on the look-out for flying shoes! haha

I understand the controversy. After all, Adobe is moving people's cheese. The very cheese we make our living with! I'm just trying to keep things in context and focus on the big picture. I look forward to getting my hands on some of the updates that you outlined in your Top-10 video. Especially turning off those %^$#! Tool Tips ;)

Petros, I appreciate your post as well. To be clear, I agree that passion in our industry is absolutely critical and I didn't mean to imply that our work is (or should be) the lifeless manufacturing of widgets. For me the passion is in the work itself (creative satisfaction) and serving my clients (sustainability) and the ability to feed my family (survivability).

Production is fun - but lets not forget: Nobody ever died on the video table!


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Juan Manuel
Re: Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 7, 2013 at 5:09:26 pm

For the past few years every new iteration of the Creative Suit was definitely worth upgrading. So it would simply make business sense to upgrade every year. The trend is likely to continue for the next few years.
However, there nothing sure about Adobe's 2017 version, for instance, once their customers are somewhat captive of Creative Suit, would be as innovating and worth purchasing as the 2016 iteration.
In the past, that means one could just skip that upgrade, meaning Adobe losses a potential sale - so Adobe has an incentive to compete against itself. With this business model, once Adobe has a large enough customer base, it losses the incentive to compete against itself. And, for customers, it means they have to weight to either keep expending in a disappointing upgrade or purchase a whole new suit of applications with their associated costs, learning curve, etc. Which means most people would continue in the Adobe boat. And while some products, like Premiere and Encore have quite a lot of competition to choose from, tools like Photoshop or After Effects are not that easily replaced.

In short, Adobe will find easier to stagnate in a few years.


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Gabe Strong
Re: Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 9, 2013 at 7:30:26 pm

Exactly the point I have been making since I predicted Adobes move to total cloud based software. Example of companies using subscription based models include cell phone and cable companies.....are you eager for post production software to go that route? I for one not and will spend my money elsewhere.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Mahmoud EL-Darwish
Re: Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 12, 2013 at 7:39:09 pm

Big Brother, The Cloud and Indepenence Armageddon
by Mahmoud El-Darwish (Notes) on Friday, May 10, 2013 at 9:34pm

As you read the following text, I urge readers to bear in mind that the very intent of the standalone computer systems introduced in the mid 1980's, was to empower the small independent end-user.


In 2001 I gave a lecture on the absurdity of software upgrades for pay and part of the lecture was a real and projected breakdown on the total lifetime cost of ownership of a set of software and hardware tools for a specific domain of enterprise. As I recall, the total lifetime (30years) cost of running single user software (4 task specific suites) in the domain of light multimedia was projected at close to $40,000 for software and a mind boggling $105,000 for hardware (computers and related drivers and cards but not cameras or printers).


The point of that lecture was to demonstrate that even while software companies distribute what amounts to unfinished 'beta' caliber wares, they still command top dollar and keep customers upgrading with the promise that their overpriced 'bloatware' will result in a viable ROI for the end user.
In truth, Only a small percentage of product improvements translate into visible increases in productivity and profit for the end-user (Moore's Law not withstanding), even as they grossly inflate profits for software and hardware companies, as well their share value.


So in 2013 we are confronted with a devious plot to get end-users to give up their software installation DVD's and downloaded firmware and SW updates and just run all their software from 'The Cloud'.


No doubt, distributed computing in the 90's was the Genesis of this model.


As I have stated ad-nauseum, 'The Cloud' is analogous to a magic carpet floating in the sky. Them that control the magic carpet, control the sky. One 'pull' of the carpet and the sky comes falling down. By this I mean that the software companies plan to make it impossible for end users to control their enterprises at all. This also means that once beholden to cloud domiciled enterprise models, there is no restriction to what software companies will charge for 'subscriptions' as well as updates. This will also create a new rift between those that can afford the subscriptions and those that cannot. A new class of technology worker will emerge that will nullify the great technological egalitarianism of the 90's. Meet the privileged technology worker with 'access'. Gone will be the level playing field so beneficial to our economy at the cusp of the New Millenium.


The model will be identical to the one that as developed by ISP and Cable providers for TV programming. Fail to pay your subscription fee and 'poof' you are disconnected.
Just imagine that for software that a small business depends on for survival!
Once you agree to be part of the 'Cloud' collective, you are doomed.


But there is some hope


My advice has been the same for 15 years.
Buy up all the stand- alone software that you can right now. If that is CS6+latest updates for Visual Designers. Grab them, Grab all the compliant workstations that you can, fill them up with all the RAM and storage that you can. Buy extra parts and run these computers entirely OFFLINE.
That way Adobe can't 'zap' your software remotely.
Do this for all your software needs because eventually, more companies will try to force the cloud-only model on their customers.


This is the beginning, not of a 'revolution' to benefit the end user, but rather, a war between the end user and the Software Cos.
Decide if you want to win or if you want the software giants to own you, 'lock stock and barrel' as we used to say.
The end-user is entitled to minimize outlays for 'tools of the trade' so as to maximize profitability.
This is good business sense.
The hegemony that the computer industry has had over the tools can be halted with resistance from the end-user community. An organized effort should be mounted to counter what is a clear effort to turn what has been a relatively level playing field into to one that only those with deep pockets can play on.
No doubt there are those that have more money than brains and are are willing to prove it.
Bless them as they are the backbone of our consumer-centric economy.
But unless you are a member of this elite community, you'd better protect yourselves.


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 12, 2013 at 10:50:42 pm

[Mahmoud EL-Darwish] "Grab all the compliant workstations that you can, fill them up with all the RAM and storage that you can. Buy extra parts and run these computers entirely OFFLINE."

Disconnected all my computers from the Internet, smashed my cell phone, put a tinfoil hat on. Awaiting further instructions, sir.


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Sean Bates
Re: Cloud Controversy: A Different Point of View?
on May 7, 2013 at 5:10:44 pm

Stop it. Rational discussion makes me nervous.


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