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5 year buyout not good enough

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andy lewis
5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 6:15:22 am

Part of the reason for switching to a subscription model (from the company's perspective) is that you lower the barrier to entry. This is largely psychological, no? Especially as adobe are really pushing for one-year commitments. Money I have now is worth more than money in the future - and those tiny payments! I spend more on coffee etc. So I'm surprised that they even suggested a scheme with a locked exit door (insert coins to open). It directly undermines the kind of mentality they would like to encourage in the customer - unless they were hoping no one would notice. It forces us to think about long-term cost of ownership before we even click "buy." I don't think this is just bad for customers, I think it's a mistake for adobe as well.

"No one ever got fired for buying IBM"

In the days after FCPX's botched release the most angry and upset people were those who had recently switched their studios over to FCS. Imagine how much worse it would have been if FCS was subscription-only software. Those studios would now be paying for the FCS replacement as well as continuing their FCS subscription just to open old projects. Who wants to be the idiot who made that decision? "We're only in this mess for another 5 years" hardly sounds like consolation.

The point I'm making is that for both individuals who might buy after a couple of hour's research on the internet and a 30-day trial, and for professional outfits who do proper financial forecasting the locked exit door is a huge negative. And I don't think a 5 year buyout really addresses this. And dammit I don't want to commit for 5 years - why should I!?

Forcing the customer to think long-term like this is bad for adobe. I've been paying for dropbox for 4 years. I only know this because I just checked - that's how run to a subscription service.

So...

How about if after a one year subscription you can access CC for 30 days per year in perpetuity? These days don't have to be consecutive.

Adobe have even suggested themselves that you can use a free trial to access old projects - how about formalising that and improving on it?

As well as the obvious benefits to the customer, this has important benefits for adobe:

If you leave your subscription, the door never completely closes. Updating an old project? Maybe you'll have a play with AE's new "Replace talent" feature and like it so much you'll happily re-subscribe.

If you need to send bits of an old project to another editor, upgrade first. This means that everyone (subscriber or not) is always on the same version, reducing support costs and making CC a more reliable sharing platform.


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 8:38:29 am

I agree in principle - this 5 year loyalty buyout plan that's being discussed here does seem too long to me. Today, if we want to switch from Adobe to Avid for example, it's an easy switch. The deeper into the subscription time-sink you get, the harder it becomes - 5 years is bandied about like it's nothing, but it's an awfully long time.

The flaw in this buy-out scheme (IMO of course), is that it's framed in terms of a cost that's been set by Adobe, the $50 monthly fee. This disregards a whole host of other more important Individual User Issues (for lack of a better more articulate phrase) and broader technological issues, as a compromise.

People keep comparing this cost to Cell Phone plans etc, but who has a 5 year mobile plan?

5 years from now, we may be able to send someone on a sightseeing round-trip to Mars. Today all(!) we have is a rover on the surface.

I guess my point is why sign up to be on the hook for something for that long when things can change so quickly?

Best,
Sandeep.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 9:11:07 am

I see it the same. And I think it there has to be an solution not only time-relevant.
It should also be dependent to an amount X. Even because you may have to make breaks.
Or - if you like to - you can pay the 5 years in one step.
Or you can decide after 1,5 yrs to pay the rest.
From that point on, where you reach time X or amount X you get an bonus.
With that bonus in your pocket you have the key to get out, holding that software-version for further use, without any restriction or updates.
(Means: you can go on, if you like, but you don´t have to - also can go on, paying and paying and paying to use your creations)
Once you get out, there also has to be a solution for re-jumbers who already have a bonus.

THAT would have been fair in my eyes.
But as they didn´t offer that (and I take every bet - they will never offer that) - they are not fair.
But fair or not - I´m done with them.
- - - - - -
CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in the digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never


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Paul Neumann
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 1:14:16 pm

How about you sign up for a year at $20 a month and see what you think of it? If it ain't working for you you'll have plenty of time to gather your assets, output XMLs, explore alternatives, whatever.

No matter how it turns out for you I reckon it's money well spent. Hell, I spent $400 on FCPX/Motion 5/Compressor just to be sure PPro/AE/AME worked better for me.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 1:54:14 pm

It´s no the matter if it works. We know, their tools are working.
The dependency won´t change by trying. For me it´s not a matter of the price.
Would also pay more - but losing my archive is a absolute NoGo.
Even don´t want to only spand one cent any longer to this company. They have lost my trust from one day to the other.
- - - - - -
CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in the digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never


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Kris Merkel
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 2:10:08 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "but losing my archive is a absolute NoGo. "

Just to be clear, and make sure that mis-information is not being spread as truth.

Your archive will not disappear. You will always have access to it and if you do decide to cancel your membership at any time you will still be able to access it buy purchasing a one month CC membership. In a professional setting, i can only imagine needing access if you are making changes for a client which you could bill for, so no out of pocket cost there, in a hobbyest environment, there may be other solutions that may suit your needs better, but you will still have no guarantee from any vendor that they will not change their software in the future that will change the way you access your files.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
twitter: @kris_merkel
Product Manager, Flanders Scientific Inc.
http://www.shopfsi.com
Co-Founder, Atlanta Cutters Post Production User Group
http://www.atlantacutters.com

2.2Ghz MBP core i7
16Gb RAM
CS6/FCP7
AJA T-Tap
AJA IO XT
FSI LM-2461W/CM-170W







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Rainer Schubert
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 5:43:06 pm

I can´t hear that any longer again and again and again and again...

Sure - my files will not suddenly disappear. But only having a look on the nice icons isn´t what I want.
An Archive containing files I can´t open (without paying) isn´an Archive as it is known.
It´s more a storage of my files at Adobes Idea of an Archive - I have to pay for.
An Archive, is a place where I can store my things and can take and reuse whenever I want without PAYING for.
(Do you like to pay for looking into the photo-albums of your family?)

Don´t tell me again, please - there are so many trying (first Adobe) to tell me, that there is no difference. It´s simply not the truth.
I create 1,5 TB a year of clients data (as a single person - not multiplied with employees).
I have nearly not one day in my business where I don´t have to open and edit a file which is between one or three years old. Sometimes very much older.
When I think of all the FreeHand files, opened the last years - would be poor with a cloud.
(May be a part of last years catalog has to be used, an motive of an insert should be used again, a fair trailer want´s a new text a layer, I want to open the file with a collection of icons I need, etc. - I even wondering how and what all that people work, who will tell me, that there is no problem - all my colleagues and business partners had the same question even as they heard of Adobes Cash Cow (CC) BS)
I have to guaranty my industrial clients a file access to their work (not to have a look at - I must be able to open and edit) for a min. of three years by contract.
So don´t tell me I can easily quit. I simply have to go on paying after subscription for a min. of three years this way.
Converting 15TB to useless only readable files after 10 years? Your are invited.
BtW: Clients are paying me for my work. Not for my software (especially that, which is only necessary to open files you already created).
And it simply don´t matters WHO pays the bill for the use of my own files.
I´m done with Adobe because there is a bill.

And I think it´s not only one in the end - As when Adobe gets away with this, there will be Apple, MS, Autodesk,...
And I even don´t believe, that the prices remain to be stable when their "Let´s catch Cloudies" period turns over to "Milking time!"
They have to bring their cloud experiment to success for the moment.
They need as much dependend people as possible to reach their targets - they have already told Wall Street.
- - - - - -
CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in the digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never


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Kris Merkel
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 6:11:51 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "I have nearly not one day in my business where I don´t have to open and edit a file which is between one or three years old. Sometimes very much older."

Are all of these files now opening on CS6 or other legacy versions of the software. If so, they will still open.



[Rainer Schubert] "I have to guaranty my industrial clients a file access to their work (not to have a look at - I must be able to open and edit) for a min. of three years by contract."

And I assume that you are billing your clients accordingly which should take care of any operating expenses that are accrued from doing business include the cost of using your software.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
twitter: @kris_merkel
Product Manager, Flanders Scientific Inc.
http://www.shopfsi.com
Co-Founder, Atlanta Cutters Post Production User Group
http://www.atlantacutters.com

2.2Ghz MBP core i7
16Gb RAM
CS6/FCP7
AJA T-Tap
AJA IO XT
FSI LM-2461W/CM-170W







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Ron Pestes
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 6:17:45 pm

Kris, we are talking about CC projects not opening if we stop paying. Those projects would be dead as things stand now.

ronpesteshdvideo.com
JVC GY-HM600
Dell M6600
Adobe CS6 Production Premium
MacBook Pro
Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2




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Gary Huff
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 6:20:29 pm

[Kris Merkel] "Are all of these files now opening on CS6 or other legacy versions of the software. If so, they will still open."

As long as you remembered to save a CS6 version before you stopped paying. Otherwise, it will cost you $20 to open and save your project file like this...unless you're two versions ahead in CC. Then you'll have to open it up in V2, save it to CC Premiere V1 (for instance), then download and install CC Premiere V1 and save it to Premiere CS6.

Lovely.

[Kris Merkel] "And I assume that you are billing your clients accordingly which should take care of any operating expenses that are accrued from doing business include the cost of using your software."

Actually, I have no qualms myself about doing this. At least I have an excuse if they bitch about a $20 fee.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 6:43:43 pm

And don´t forget: Before you can do anything, you have to download a little bit, re-subscribe, install, verify, delete, unsubscribe, Book keeping.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 6:41:02 pm

I wrote already: It doesn´t matter WHO pays that bill. What counts is: there is one. A bill from Adobe for the further use of your Archive in the digital future.
If Adobe tries to say: Simply make your clients a EU Eu 70 bill for opening files...
(And btw: If I would accept all these additional costs, that , unserious companies want for unnecessary services... I think I wouldn´t be very successful)
I think, I wrote very detailed what my NoGo are - can´t you still accept? If it´s good for you - OK. For me Not.
We both know the facts.

I wrote also Cash Cow terminates the Word "Archive" in the future.
Not CS6.
I didn´t subscribe. And I also will never do. I´m already building new infrastructures.
Yes my CS6 will open in future. We already configured two MACS for that. And I think, they will do that the next 10 years, beside some other tasks.

And least: Sure my clients are paying their bills, including the costs of my education, my infrastructure and also my necessary software.
It´s all integrated into my hourly rates.
But I´m the person who has to take care about this and to balance it out.
And I still accept not one of this: Paying for my Archive in case of unsubscribing, A one or all strategy and no warranty for prices in case of getting dependend.
Beside some other lacks of what I´m totally p..ed off. If someone had offered me that in private... better don´t ask.

That´s it.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 7:29:45 pm

[Kris Merkel] " in a hobbyest environment, there may be other solutions that may suit your needs bette"

I am curious, what is the dividing line between "hobbyist" and "professional?" Things are not always so clear cut when addressing creatives.

Do you have to make your living off your creative endeavors? Do you just have to get paid for some of your work? All of your work? What?

Is a guy who spends five years making a documentary a hobbyist? How about the painter that sells maybe two or three paintings a year and supports himself in a day job?

The problem I see with this assessment and Adobe's willingness to cut the "enthusiast" off at the knees, is the hobbyist doesn't always remain a hobbyist. In fact most of us, I would venture the assumption, started that way. By limiting what has been a fairly accessible set of tools to a "professional" only, when that hobbyist or enthusiast or student or part-time artist steps up, he will have a whole new skill set with different tools outside of Adobe and no need for CC.


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Gary Huff
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 7:44:39 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "The problem I see with this assessment and Adobe's willingness to cut the "enthusiast" off at the knees, is the hobbyist doesn't always remain a hobbyist. In fact most of us, I would venture the assumption, started that way."

I most certainly did.


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Kris Merkel
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 7:49:59 pm

I think that the IRS ,here in the USA, has a definition and my statement was not about judging others, because I for one would have absolutely no right to do so, but more how the creative sees themselves. Thats all.

And as a counter point to someone who sees themselves as Hobbyist, who does what they do for the love of it and not because they expect to see a return on their work I think an entry point of $50 per month might look like a good value to them. I can think of numerous hobbies that would be quite more expensive than CC membership even over many years, and of course there are less expensive ones as well.


[Clint Wardlow] "Adobe's willingness to cut the "enthusiast" off at the knees"

This is not a true statement with absolutely no proof or merit and is in fact your own opinion and statements like this will likely continue to create a larger divide between whatever categories a creative might feel they belong to.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
twitter: @kris_merkel
Product Manager, Flanders Scientific Inc.
http://www.shopfsi.com
Co-Founder, Atlanta Cutters Post Production User Group
http://www.atlantacutters.com

2.2Ghz MBP core i7
16Gb RAM
CS6/FCP7
AJA T-Tap
AJA IO XT
FSI LM-2461W/CM-170W







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Clint Wardlow
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 9:16:55 pm

[Kris Merkel] "[Clint Wardlow] "Adobe's willingness to cut the "enthusiast" off at the knees"

This is not a true statement with absolutely no proof or merit and is in fact your own opinion and statements like this will likely continue to create a larger divide between whatever categories a creative might feel they belong to."


Actually, many blogs including those that have endorsed the CC model have posited this same theory (maybe not so bluntly). If you look around on this board you can find some links.

Look $50.00 a month may not seem a lot, but not every "hobbyist" is rolling in cash. A monthly fee like that(or even $20.00) can be a big bite for the starving artist when tacked onto the numerous other monthly bills that are such a part of modern living.

Also, the month by month model doesn't really work for someone not already conversant in the software. Who can really pick up the complexities of deep programs like Photoshop or AE or Illustrator in a month. For the part time user it is best to have it around so one can dink around in it and learn at their leisure. I have a feeling that any newbie that tries to navigate through AE for the first time in a single month is in for some major soul-crushing frustration.

And of course it is my opinion, that is kind of what these boards are all about.


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 9:32:03 pm

Clint, a new user can now shell out 100 dollars for 2 months subscription and master PS and AE and AI, as opposed to shelling out approximately 1500 bucks to buy the Suite so he can get started.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 10:14:24 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "Clint, a new user can now shell out 100 dollars for 2 months subscription and master PS and AE and AI, as opposed to shelling out approximately 1500 bucks to buy the Suite so he can get started."

And after two months no longer can work on those files until they pony up again (although, in all fairness, Adobe has indicated willingness to work on this -- they just haven't told us how other than backwards into CS6). Also the monthly fee goes up substantially if you don't commit to a year.

I would also say mastering any of those programs in two months is a bit optimistic. You might be able to use them, but it can take months, if not years, to master them. Sometimes it is just easier to shell out the cash in a lump sum once. Admittedly, Adobe allows a a purchase for a year all at once -- and maybe allowing longer. However, unless you own the Master Collection --instead of say the Production Premium like I have- it becomes more costly. Especially if one didn't follow a regular upgrade methodology.

Frankly I am not opposed to the Cloud per se (I am a member) and I can see some advantages. It is cloud only that bugs me. Maybe it will allow quicker innovation and maybe not.

It kind of puts it all in Adobe's hands and we have to trust they will keep it beneficial to the end user as well as their bottom line. Maybe I am being cynical, but it has been my experience that trusting a big company to do what is best for me, and I am not pointing my finger only at Adobe here, is a tad starry-eyed.

Oh well, it is what it is. Only time will tell how it all really plays out.


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David Lawrence
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 10:31:53 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "And after two months no longer can work on those files until they pony up again"

This is not a minor detail.

I roll my eyes every time someone smart says "$50 per month" is cheap. It's not.

They're conveniently ignoring two very important words:

For. Life.

It's $50 per month for life, if you plan to move forward with the platform.

It's not the price, it's the lifetime obligation.

#adobe2014
http://adobe2014.tumblr.com

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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Clint Wardlow
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 11:08:25 pm

[David Lawrence] "This is not a minor detail.

I roll my eyes every time someone smart says "$50 per month" is cheap. It's not.

They're conveniently ignoring two very important words:

For. Life.

It's $50 per month for life, if you plan to move forward with the platform.

It's not the price, it's the lifetime obligation."


And not only that, but the implications if other large software companies follow suite with subscription only. The future could become s nightmare of costly monthly bills one has to fork out if they want to get any work done. I mean monthly fees are a part of life, but if you throw software in any large way into the mix, YIKES!

It is not so much that subscription-only CC alone worries me. If Adobe sticks with it, I'll either learn to live with it or move on. But a infrastructure of subscription-only software built as we go, guided by boards of rich guys only looking at their quarterly profits is a scary thing. It could be a step backwards from the kind of democracy of the individual that computers brought into being.

Maybe I am just being a doomsayer, but if Adobe's model pays off in a big way and becomes the standard for large software corporations, I don't necessarily see a future so bright I have to wear shades.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 11:16:15 pm

Can be sure - you´re not alone.
Thinking it to the end (I´m REALY afraid of) this will end into an OS which first connects bank account before starting up.
The world is more and more divided into two classes - and this "cloud" is one of the actors.
Based on lies starting by the name.
- - - - - -
CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in the digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never


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David Lawrence
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 11:40:03 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "It is not so much that subscription-only CC alone worries me. If Adobe sticks with it, I'll either learn to live with it or move on. But a infrastructure of subscription-only software built as we go, guided by boards of rich guys only looking at their quarterly profits is a scary thing. It could be a step backwards from the kind of democracy of the individual that computers brought into being."

That kind of future would mean the death of personal computing. The reason personal computers were invented in the first place was as an alternative to centralized, top-down control of computing technology that these CEOs would love to recreate for their shareholders.

I'm optimistic that we've come too far to ever return to that. Adobe management may be hellbent on turning their company into a 21st century Scitex but the cat's been out of the bag for too many decades.

Just look at Avid's ad in the right sidebar. There are many companies that would love to drink Adobe's milkshake. And there will only be more.

A company willing to throw their most passionate, loyal paying customers under the bus is doing something wrong. They might want to think about that.


#adobe2014
http://adobe2014.tumblr.com

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Gary Huff
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 6, 2013 at 3:27:05 pm

[David Lawrence] "That kind of future would mean the death of personal computing."

I agree. Yeah $50 dollars a month isn't bad in and of itself, but what happens if it ever goes up? What happens if now Office is $9.99 per month? OSX/Windows is $9.99 per month? Plugins are now various prices to rent as well. You're paying per month for internet (on average, around $79.99 for a good connection with decent upload). It just starts to add up until you could easily be paying $200-$300 per month JUST for your computing needs.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 4, 2013 at 8:07:19 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I am curious, what is the dividing line between "hobbyist" and "professional?" Things are not always so clear cut when addressing creatives.

Do you have to make your living off your creative endeavors? Do you just have to get paid for some of your work? All of your work? What?

Is a guy who spends five years making a documentary a hobbyist? How about the painter that sells maybe two or three paintings a year and supports himself in a day job?

The problem I see with this assessment and Adobe's willingness to cut the "enthusiast" off at the knees, is the hobbyist doesn't always remain a hobbyist. In fact most of us, I would venture the assumption, started that way. By limiting what has been a fairly accessible set of tools to a "professional" only, when that hobbyist or enthusiast or student or part-time artist steps up, he will have a whole new skill set with different tools outside of Adobe and no need for CC."


AMEN BROTHER! (And I don't usually recapitulate a post)

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Dale Hersh
Re: 5 year buyout not good enough
on Jun 5, 2013 at 5:42:24 am

This overall is a complete switch of the way we work. Renting is very simply not usually in favor of the rentee (us) especially when they retain your property (data), crazy. Furthermore if you look at how fast this business changes, tying to one company is suicide. A few years ago if you used Adobe PP your weren't take seriously and now it is a somewhat respected app. How will be on top, what will be the latest 5 years from now?

We all know that Adobe is not forthcoming with all the details because no one would buy it. Your costs will go up EOD and you will have no control. What are you options going to be...?

I like a lot of the cloud, but I want control of my property on my storage with the ability to visit it any time I want.


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