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What would have happened at NAB?

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Ron Pestes
What would have happened at NAB?
on May 31, 2013 at 7:38:24 pm

For those of us that were at NAB this year you will recall how Adobe would absolutely refuse to tell us what the next version would be called. Can you imagine if they had told us the truth what would have happened? There would have been a riot at their booth and the worst PR nightmare imaginable. But instead they now have a whole year to let the anger diminish.

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Tom Daigon
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on May 31, 2013 at 7:55:36 pm

Ron, I was one of the first folks to sound the alarm here at the COW, when I came home after NAB (I live 3 miles away from the Convention Center).

I was met with a variety of responses. Anger from some Adobe folks, confusion by current customers and disbelief by many.

I was told to chill...wait to see what happens... they wont do it this quickly and a like comments.

I have good instincts and knew this was coming down the tracks.

PS - I wrote at length about it that Monday night here at the COW. Tuesday night I thought it might NOT be a good idea to go to the Adobe party I had been invited to, given some of the vitriol expressed to me by Adobe personnel.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
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Dave LaRonde
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on May 31, 2013 at 8:10:23 pm

I think Adobe would have sold a boatload of CS6 applications as buyers thought to themselves, "Um, let's get real disks while we can and see where this whole subscription thing goes."

The result: far fewer early CC subscriptions, which is probably not what Adobe would have wanted. But that's just my opinion.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Oliver Peters
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on May 31, 2013 at 8:29:09 pm

At NAB Adobe was publicly being coy about the answer. However, if you had spoken with their sales people - as one of my clients did - they were saying that the only available way to place a new order at that point in time was via a Cloud subscription.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on May 31, 2013 at 8:37:53 pm

[Oliver Peters] " ...they were saying that the only available way to place a new order at that point in time was via a Cloud subscription."

Hmmm....
With this bit of info about new orders, it sounds like it would have been the FCPX Train Wreck all over again if Adobe had indeed announced CC at NAB.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on May 31, 2013 at 9:55:06 pm

So now we're down to guessing what might have happened at NAB had such and such a thing happened? Isn't anyone actually using the software any more? Do we really need people claiming to have already known what was going to happen, or that there would have been public lynchings on the NAB floor, or that Adobe employees were threatening attendees with blackjacks?

This forum is just turning into a morass of bull-twinkies, and I can understand why Walter Biscardi, one of the few voices of reason here, just dropped off the radar. If you think Adobe has stopped listening, just keep on crying and wailing and insulting and peeing on the floor. That's bound to get their attention, isn't it?

Joe Bourke
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Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Juan Salvo
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on May 31, 2013 at 11:05:30 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "I think Adobe would have sold a boatload of CS6 applications as buyers thought to themselves, "Um, let's get real disks while we can and see where this whole subscription thing goes.""

Dave, you can still buy CS6 licenses. They didn't go away.

Colorist | Online Editor | Post Super | VFX Artist | BD Author

http://JuanSalvo.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on May 31, 2013 at 11:55:07 pm

[Juan Salvo] "Dave, you can still buy CS6 licenses. They didn't go away."

Understood. I presume you read the thread's title, WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.....

This is all speculative, after-the-fact, never-going-to-happen stuff. I'm just playing the hypothetical role of a guy at NAB confronted with the new model for the first time... IF it happened, y'know?

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Rainer Schubert
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 1, 2013 at 10:16:55 am

That´s the change of their philosophy.
They once were seen serious and fair.
Once...


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Kris Merkel
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 1, 2013 at 4:33:45 pm

And since we are speculating, I believe that Adobe is still seen as fair by a vast, and I mean vast majority of thier customers. BTW Tom, if you feel that you were treated badly by any of the vendors at NAB or any other trade show for that matter you can and should file a complaint with the show management instead of airing it here.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
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Rainer Schubert
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 1, 2013 at 4:57:35 pm

I´m listening to the words of Adobe. It´s been three weeks after their coming out.
There were already statements made, that they will change the cloud a bit in response to the concerns, esp. photoshop hobbyists.
But they also declared already, that they will not change anything to the main facts, like full, editable file-access to your own creations.
Yes, you are also right, that the Adobe staff is very forthcoming with it´s answers mostly in it´s blogs. Thanks for that.
Yes, also true, that I don´t like the answers.
But that´s no reason to shut up for me.
I invested time and money into their solutions and trusted them for 22 years.
Now I´m ripped of.
In my eyes they changed the product I once bought.
All the Investments on PlugIns, Workflow Apps and Partener Apps - Useless in near future.

No problem, if you like cloud. Good luck.
But for me - a full access to my clients file is simply a must.
And subscribing is a dependency.

So, you have to understand the concerns about. And blogs like this one, are even the place, where you can discuss that.
It´s simply the sense of them.


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Kris Merkel
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 1, 2013 at 6:13:59 pm

Ripped off? Did the software you have already purchased suddenly stop working. I understand tht you are upset but you have the choice to use the software or not. I don't understand how that disenfranchise users.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
twitter: @kris_merkel
Product Manager, Flanders Scientific Inc.
http://www.shopfsi.com
Co-Founder, Atlanta Cutters Post Production User Group
http://www.atlantacutters.com

2.2Ghz MBP core i7
16Gb RAM
CS6/FCP7
AJA T-Tap
AJA IO XT
FSI LM-2461W/CM-170W







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Rainer Schubert
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 1, 2013 at 6:57:06 pm

If Adobe would have been start up with this distribution model - no problem.
But they didnt. A vew month ago they told their users, that the CS6 is the last version, that will be upgradeable.
So many users were forced to upgrade to CS6. And Now? No update any longer.
CC is not comparebale with CS6.
When I bought my first Photshop - that was PS2 (not cs2) many many years ago - I trusted in Adobes way, that this will be upgraded as long as they develop this product.
Upgradet all my products and licenses all the years in the trust this would go on.
Invested many ten thousands Euros in their Applications. And an other into Workflows (like my C3D tools connected to them), PlugIns and related products.
Clearly - may be their EULA is written other - but I FEEL ripped.
And I am truly not alone with that.
Also OK - my CS6 MCs will work the next 1,2 or 3 years in a way that I don´t need something else.
But they cut my path to the future innovations they might do.
CC isn´t only unacceptable to me, as I don´t like it.
I have to tae care of my clients files and I MUST have full access to them (thats guaranteed by contract to the most of them for a min. of three years).
I will never subscribe into a solution which lefts me in the rain, after subscription.
I Can´t do that and I don´t will do that.
As I have already alternatives in some cases (I also work parallel with FC7, FCX, Blender, QuarkXPress, FreeHand (as I never liked Illustrator), and some alternatives for their Web-Apps). But I have to invest time and money in new Workflows and Learning. Photoshop isn´t jet replaceaple completely (as no one of the competitors has an professional CMYK support) and also Flash is not easy to replace (but hopefuly it´s slowly dying - clients don´t ask for that so much).
So I will keep a MAC the next 3 to 10 years running for CS6. In hope that some day PS will be replaceable by competitors.
I have to look, how I can keep the Workflows stable to that clients and business partners, who will jump on that "cloud".
You can tell me everything you want. And also it might be OK for you, that Adobe did that. For me it is not and its forcing.
Even if I feel forced. Even if I only feel they changed my products.
And I´m not talking about peanuts here.
BtW.: I read many statements of lawyers these days, here in the EU, who see aspects in this distribution model, that are not law conform.
Remember: MS was stopped to integrate IE into their OS. They are stopped and punished by European law.
I don´t know, if this can happen here to - but if you ask me, if this should be forbidden, my answer is absolutely a clear: Yes.
If there where real competitors and there were no borders for files - I even wouldn´t say a word.
Simply would say: Hasta la Vista, Adobe.
But Adobe can be called a monopolist in the graphic branch. As I see most of the posters here are only interested in video -editing.
Adobe isn´t that big one and only here - But in the Graphical business (InDesign; Illustrator, Photoshop, PDF-Workflow to Printing Companies, RAW-Support) they are. And they know exactly. They wouldn´t have done this without the backing of this.
And in my eyes I monopolist shouldn´t be allowed to do everything he wants to.
So coming to the end: Might be you are right, and might be we don´t want to hear the answers. And might be it´s OK for you what Adobe did.
But please let us - who are of an differnt oppinion - say that. If it is useless or not (in your eyes).


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Tim Wilson
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 12:39:48 am

"MS was stopped to integrate IE into their OS. They are stopped and punished by European law."

And looking back, this was ridiculous.

I try to avoid strong language, but I'll say it. The whole fight was stupid. It accomplished nothing.

The problem: Microsoft insisted that hardware partners only sell Windows with Internet Explorer.

Solution: give people the option to buy computers with Windows, but with no browser.

You know who chose this solution? NOBODY. Because people WANT computers with browsers. People DEMAND browsers be included. Can you imagine buying a Mac without Safari? That would be ridiculous.Chrome is an OS that is ONLY a browser.

So the EU (and of course the US) spent years fighting a fight that was already over before the first day of the trial. This stands as the biggest embarrassment in the history of technology law. It was a colossal waste of time and energy, and in the end, the fight benefited nobody.

The difference here is that fewer people agree that cloud-only software is the best idea...although many people (me included) see it as a big step forward.

Whether you agree with me or not is ultimately irrelevant. In a few years, cranky old men (definitely include me in that category - I'm older than almost all of you) will still be grumbling about this, because we have to grumble about something, and younger people will have no idea what we're talking about, because the fight is already far closer to over than you think. More and more software is already being delivered this way. Nobody who has started doing it has stopped.

Most people will still make most decisions based on perceived value, and most pros will find Adobe tools indispensable, and a subscription fee maybe half the price of their mobile phone bill or less quite bearable.

And those that don't will move on, while the rest of the software world continues to move in this direction.

Not to suggest that there's no reason to keep talking about it. By all means, carry on. But bringing Microsoft into it might perhaps serve as reminder of how the conversation ended last time: with Microsoft doing what they planned from the beginning, and most people remembering the whole fight fuzzily, if at all.

PS. Speaking only for myself.

PPS. Typing on a phone, which might explain some random oddities, and which might moderate any notions of sound judgment on my part.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 3:04:57 am

Thanks for your input, Tim. I, for one, am not interested in governmental intrusion. I am not against cloud delivery. I am happy to pay for my software and download it. I just want it to keep working once I have paid for it.

The whole problem for me, and apparently, tens of thousand of others, is that a rental model, where the software disappears when you quit paying, is repulsive. Combine that with loss of access to your work at that point has more than a few people up in arms. I am not interested in paying Adobe the "equivalent of my phone bill" for the rest of my life to maintain access to my work. And we all know CS6 will not cut it for long with OS updates, especially on the Mac where updates occur annually. We have only been promised one OSX and one Windows system update of compatibility for CS6.

You are correct in stating that Adobe software is indispensable in certain fields. All the more reason that they should behave responsibly to their customers. Also, I am not aware of any companies, especially in the creative software field, and sub field of NLE's, that is forcing a rental model on their customers. Even Microsoft has said people are not ready for it. If that is the only future, it seems bleak to me.

If Adobe offered perpetual licenses along with Creative Cloud or some form of buyout, this controversy would not exist. They don't seem interested. So you can bet the debate and the divisions on this issue will continue.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Rainer Schubert
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 3:17:31 am

You wrote in an other post, "...you think you have a right for...".
I also think you have a right for a solution. And as all the other long time users too. Who invested great amounts in Adobe SW.
But rights are regularly guaranteed by law.
So why not interested in governmental intrusion?
I am of the opinion, a monopolist in the graphical branch shouldn´t be allowed by law to abuse his market right in a way like this.
And I´m not alone with that.
Can´t understand (really) - but might be, there are regional differences in the sight what should be regulated by law or not... (I´m in EU)


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Oliver Peters
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 12:24:03 pm

RIGHTS???!!!! Are you people insane? You HAVE NO RIGHTS to Adobe software. Get over it! It's a product or set of products. Pure and simple. Move on if you don't like what they've done. There are plenty of alternatives. Many are cheaper. Some are better. The fact that many creative pros find these tools indispensable does not constitute a monopoly. Nor has Adobe engaged in any monopolistic practices. Customer complaints in sizable quantity might get some modifications, but to intimate that legal action is required is the height of lunacy.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rainer Schubert
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 12:53:06 pm

IN my eyes they are a monopolist.
Many workflows (esp. in graphic branche - not so in video) are not thinkable without them.
And also established.
You may find it lunancy. Me not.
But I also know, that we here in the EU have an other sight (that´s meant without any judging this is better or not) on what has to be controlled by law.
And I´m also not of the opinion, that there are REAL competitors.
(Tell me only ONE in case of Photoshop. ONE competitor whos solution has full, necessary CMYK support. ONE competitor whos App can read PSD files in FULL functionality - with all 3D and so on. I can go on with Illustrator or Flash. In the video branche it´s more easy to change)

So let´s see. I can only speak for myself. But if you ask me... I said.


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Oliver Peters
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 1:15:46 pm

Because you feel they are monopolistic doesn't make it so. I'm not a fan of regulation and feel the EU is over-regulated, but that's irrelevant in this debate.

I don't disagree that Adobe's files are proprietary, but so are everyone else's - Avid, Apple, Autodesk, Quantel, etc. If you want comparable applications that can offer most of Adobe's features, look to Corel, Pixelmator, Boris, The Foundry, EyeOn and others. Can they perfectly read Adobe files? No. Can you prepare an Adobe file in a way that it can be opened by these applications? Yes.

Understand that today, nothing has changed. You can own up to the most current version of Adobe software. It's really a decision going forward. To date, you aren't prevented from doing anything, if you choose to hold at CS6.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rainer Schubert
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 2:43:31 pm

Sure - The File-formats of the other companies in the Video-branche can not be opened/converted with their complete functionality.
But I would also shout loud out if they will move to a subsribtion only solution without any necessity (as to reduce costs and maximize foreseeable income).
Yes, right, you can convert the Adobe-Video formats to files that can be handled by other Apps (but with important limitations).
That´s the same with the others. TIF & Co. can´t safe all features of PS (fully editable). Also .psd format can not be read of other apps completely.
Illustrator files? Flash? And also InDesign can only be read by Quarck with limitations. Read much about the last days and tried a lot. Talking with many others.

When do you call a monopolist a monopolist?
Here in Germany the way from Creation (2D Printdesign) to Print is nearby 95% percent done with tools from Adobe.
Creation is done with InDesign/Illustrator/PSD the Workflow to print is in open files or PDF. Also the RIPs for print are mostly based on PDF.
Corel a competitor to that? Pixelmator? Without CMYK-Support? With 8bit operating? Never - might only be for Hobbyists and Enthusiasts.
Again: PS and others are Stand Alones in the market of professionals in the graphic branche.
And not only in my eyes Adobe IS a monopolist here. And if I´m asked if they are forcing: yes, they are.
If there would be a REAL competition - my concerns wouldn´t be as great. I would say: Hasta la Vista, Adobe - you will get the bill as many others.
But they know exactly (with a small risk in the end) that there backing is very high.
Many existing workflow have to be changed - very expensive for many companies.
And they are not amused about that. Some f them realized that they are in dependency already.

I´m talking a lot with other professionals and I´m really not alone with my opinion.
Yes, maybe, we are over-regulated in the EU.
But sometimes this is worse and sometimes its also good.

And also: Something HAS changed: As they cut our (CS6) way to their innovation with an unacceptable (for many) distribution model and without any necessity from customers sight.
I feel they changed the product i once bought (from an upgradeable product to a standstill product).
Might be, they go away with that. In my eyes calling maximizing income innovation is the wrong way.
There is NO explanation, why the have to leave the cloud as an option model. No declaration, why the don´t offer a serious Buy-Out.
And: Please tell me, which of the cloud-Gimmicks you use and which of them is an innovation? Most discussions here are about core-functions of the apps. These cloud-functionalities can be bought everywhere for nearly nothing -it´s only an other cloud from an other distributer.
Also most Profs and companies have their own server solutions (like me),
So it´s obvious why the call that baby cloud and move to the way they did.

Resume:
I don´t want an monopolist to be allowed to act as he wants. And in my eyes Adobe is (in video editing not - but in print).
A solution, where you lose the full and editable access to your clients files (in case of unsubscribing) shouldn´t be possible.

And I also find it OK that they are forced by law in Australia to reduce their prices.
You also have to notice, that the prices in US are their cheapest - we have to pay much more here in the EU.
Why?


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Oliver Peters
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 5:03:58 pm

I guess we will simply have to disagree. Market dominance does not define a monopolist. A virtual monopoly maybe. I'm OK with that. There's nothing that Adobe is doing, which prevents Corel or anyone else from creating a better - and more desireable - product. There may be patent issues, but I'm against most of them anyway. And never purchase software with the belief that upgrades are always possible. I think FCP X should have taught everyone that.

Regarding price - I don't know the answer. It's a frequent complaint. Of course, I pay more for European cars in the US. Maybe you are simply bearing the cost to deal with all that EU regulation ;-)

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 6:40:59 pm

Everyone keeps saying hold at CS6 if you don't want to rent your software from them. Adobe has promised OS compatibility for one major update. On the Mac OSX has a major update to 10.9 later this summer. Apple has committed to a major update once a year. By summer of 2014 CS6 could easily be incompatible with the next scheduled OSX, or whatever it will be called.

That is a very short period before we are forced to give up CS6, or not upgrade the OS for the rest of our software. Or if we buy a new computer. Eventually we must keep an old computer to run it. I have several boot drives in my 2010 Mac Pro, so that is one way to keep it alive, but very inconvenient. iMacs, MacBook Pros, not so easy. One day the 2010 will die or it won't run the new OSX. The new Mac Pro will probably be 10.9. One year to run CS6 on the new one at most if you upgrade OSX summer in 2014. New Macs do not allow earlier versions of OSX to run on them in almost all cases because of changes in firmware. New computer, new OSX, bye-bye CS6 on the Mac by the current Adobe policy if upgrading beyond 10.9 on any Mac bought after this summer. 14 or 15 months.

Just not acceptable.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Rainer Schubert
Re: What would have happened at NAB?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 3:08:31 am

I would buy an Mac without Safari. Absolutely no problem.
And if I´m asked, how a computer should look like, when it´s delivered, I would say: As clean as possible.
When I buy an new PC - the first thing is cleaning and installing an operation system without all that Gimmicks that are delivered today as Benefits.

And by the way - I don´t want an browser fixed to OS (that was the real problem - if they had installed separately that wouldn´t have happened ever. MACs are also delivered with an delete able browser). Therefore one person on this planet isn´t unlucky about that.
I use many browsers (belongs to security items and the kind of use - I have still one Machine running complete without Web-Access for confidential terms - impossible to install cloud there, btw) and I´m still also not a friend of apples politics in the last years. Kicked out iTunes when it forced my to be the one and only to handle my music.
I don´t want to say that the fight against IE has been won in the end - But I am also of the opinion, that a monopolist shouldn´t be allowed to act as he wants.
In fields where a real competition exists - I have not so great problems with that distribution. Even if Adobe had come with a new product.
That means: If all the Adobe File Formats could be used in a way, that other Apps can open and handle it (FULL and with ALL features), I wouldn´t have that concerns. But many of their files can only be converted to non editable, or editable with limited access formats. And nobody knows what they are planing for the Future.
So losing my archive in case of changing software or quitting subscription is unacceptable (Really - I will never subscribe under this conditions).
Many people invested in Infrastructures / PlugIns and so on - but I wrote that before.

This cloud is only a change of distribution. Where are the real benefits it delivers? I as an professional have my own Web-Server for the services I have to sync or to provide files to clients. All the other things are done on a local server or the local machines for better performance.
A very good statement regarding to the innovation of that cloud can be found on John Nacks Adobe thread, written by Wayne Cole:
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2013/05/you-should-never-lose-access-to-your-w...

What is the real great step of this "cloud" named solution? The few Web-Gimmicks? Hosting Files? Selling your art via Adobe? Searching for Adobe Footage?
The few syncing features (Ever used them)? I can´t see, why Adobe could be ONLY innovative when they call the baby a "cloud". And they even can´t explain, too. And all the talking here is not about that Web/Cloud Features it´s still about the core-function of the apps.

Agree with you - I dond´t think one can stop them in the end. Also as I read that MS is possibly involved that´s no good sign.
Yes, also agree many people will follow main-stream if that moves into cloud direction.
But for me it´s simply dependency. And it is still a very great risk for Adobe. All is based on estimation - and I´m astonished for myself about that big concerns all over the web - not only here. Espec. Photoshop Communities are completely pis.ed off. The Image Disaster is already done.
And the fact, that they don´t offered an buy-out is also an indicator, that they only want you to bind.
And if I have a look to their financial development - they have to find a solution to keep their ratings rise.
For the moment they lost nearby 12% compared to rising NASDAQ sicnce may 6th.

After all - Losing the full access to my files is a NoGo for me. Already turned them my backside.
I don´t believe that this distribution model will come to table as fast as you think for all suppliers. May be it´s not stopped in the end.
But if I only can see a pale shimmer of hope, I will do my part to stop this.
Nothing against the products of Adobe. Nothing against cloud computing (where it makes sense). Nothing against innovation.
And also Nothing against a so called cloud as an option.
Thanks again and again to their programmers (and that of all the other companies they bought) for creating the brushes I used the last decades and as long as I use my CS6.

But this innovation is based on to small terms for such a radical change. And it´s even not cheaper for the most of users (for me it would be).
For me it´s simply a NoGo I can not and will never use.

PS. As I wrote I´m user since the beginning of photoshop - i don´t think, you can be so much older than me ;). So grumbling is my job too.
And: Not typing in a phone or ipad - it´s my bigMAC, but as I´m not a native speaker - my english may also have some random oddities.


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