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Ron Pestes
Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 30, 2013 at 10:42:04 pm

A couple years ago Apple had a big reveal at NAB (off site) to showcase FCP X. Everyone went bananas cheering and thinking the second coming of video editing had arrived. Then when it was released we all, myself included, got so pissed off we jumped ship and went to Adobe or Avid where we were assured that our ideas were listened to and taken seriously.

Now I see that we have been duped again by the very company that said they cared. Do all these companies have the same management team in some back room? Everyone saw what a mess Apple made with FCP X but just two years later Adobe does the very same thing by trying to put us all in slavery with no choices. Don't give me the "its there new business model" garbage. Very few people seem to agree and we are the ones who use the product. I am a very light user compared to some of you and can't put an extra $50 onto my few jobs I get to pay for the few updates. And besides, who said they won't just raise the rent next year? This is just nuts, no two ways about it!

ronpesteshdvideo.com
Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2
JVC GY-HM600
MacBook Pro
Dell M6600
Adobe CS6 Production Premium


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 30, 2013 at 11:38:33 pm

[Ron Pestes] "Do all these companies have the same management team in some back room? Everyone saw what a mess Apple made with FCP X but just two years later Adobe does the very same thing by trying to put us all in slavery with no choices."

The two situations could not be more different.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 30, 2013 at 11:54:31 pm

@Jeremy: Yes, there are so many ways to get screwed.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:56:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "The two situations could not be more different.
"


1000% agree.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
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Ron Pestes
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 4:52:37 am

Really? How are they different? No advance warning, taking control away from the end user, making the user base angry while still touting the company line etc. Seems the same to me. Either way the small user loses.

ronpesteshdvideo.com
Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2
JVC GY-HM600
MacBook Pro
Dell M6600
Adobe CS6 Production Premium


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 6:32:37 am

[Ron Pestes] "Really? How are they different? No advance warning, taking control away from the end user, making the user base angry while still touting the company line etc. Seems the same to me. Either way the small user loses."

Apple radically changed FCP (dropped DVD SP, Soundtrack and Color outright) and immediately stopped sales of Final Cut Studio.

Adobe's hasn't radically changed any app and CS6 w/a perpetual license is still for sale.




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Gabe Strong
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 7:55:13 am

That's interesting as I personally know a few people who bought FCP 7 from Apple after FCP X was
announced.....similar to Adobe keeping CS6, Apple did end up keeping FCP 7 around for
those who didn't like the 'new direction'. As someone who was mad enough at Apple to jump from FCP 7 (after being a FCP user since version 1) to Adobe CS 6, I will say that my anger at Apple after the FCP X announcement
pales in comparison to what I now feel for Adobe. Maybe it's all the 'we'll listen to you unlike Apple' talk I got
from them....and now they are telling me 'Tough luck that you don't like the subscription model'. Maybe I now
feel betrayed and lied to. But I do know they had a chance to make me a customer for life and now they just
lost me back to Apple.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:03:47 pm

[Gabe Strong] "pales in comparison to what I now feel for Adobe. Maybe it's all the 'we'll listen to you unlike Apple' talk I got
from them....and now they are telling me 'Tough luck that you don't like the subscription model'. Maybe I now
feel betrayed and lied to. But I do know they had a chance to make me a customer for life"


I hear this over and over again from Adobe customers. I feel the same way.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
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Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:19:19 pm

[Gabe Strong] "That's interesting as I personally know a few people who bought FCP 7 from Apple after FCP X was
announced.....similar to Adobe keeping CS6, Apple did end up keeping FCP 7 around for
those who didn't like the 'new direction'."


Yes, you had to dial a 1-800 number to get yourself a copy.

There will be no more compatibility updates or bug fixes, unlike CS6 which will still be available from Adobe or resellers and will receive bug fix/compatibility updates.

I am not saying you have to like Adobe's new pay structure, but at least they are delivering an updated product with features that people asked for.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 3:28:50 pm

no, they didn´t radically change their product. that´s true.
and i don´t want to compare apples and clouds.
but for me the move of adobe is the greater evil.
especially when i see them as a door opener.
btw.: it doesn´t matter who did the most worse thing.
and the rumors everywhere in the web are enormous.


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 10:13:01 am

[Ron Pestes] "Really? How are they different? "

Apple Final Cut Pro X When it was released.
Completely changed the end user workflow.
Eliminated access to the older product line immediately.
Completely destroyed a shared editor workflow.
Completely eliminated ability to move older projects forward to the new software.
Eliminated Apple Color as a product altogether, a product on par with Davinci Resolve.
Eliminated Apple Soundtrack as a product altogether.
Those are just a few.

Adobe Creative Cloud When it was released.
Changed the way we pay for the software.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 12:19:39 pm

[Ron Pestes] "Really? How are they different? No advance warning, taking control away from the end user, making the user base angry while still touting the company line etc. Seems the same to me. Either way the small user loses."

While I sympathize if you don't like the cost structure, the situation is wholly different.

With fcpx, my entire workflow will change.

All of my legacy and archive projects for which I have to access frequently are orphaned and I now have to maintain a computer that will stay on OS 10.6.8 forever. There is no compatibility between fcpx and fcp7.

While I am one of the weird ones that actually likes fcpx, I didn't really expect a completely different editing methodology. Even though I'm OK with it, Fcpx is full of features I would have never asked for directly. The software that is offered with CC is full of features and requests that were submitted by users and that Adobe has worked hard to implement directly, for users.

FCP7 is dead. CS6 will live on for quite some time being available for sale and even updated with bug fixes and compatibility. This means if you are happy with CS6, you can "own" it, not pay a cent beyond the purchase price, and still receive bug fixes for free. Fcp7 does not have any of those options.

You have access, sometimes extremely direct access, to Adobe representatives through this transition, and even if you believe that it's just corporate babble, Apple users only have each other to wander through the mire. Apple does not communicate with the general user public.

As an fcp7 user and as someone who is looking to move from that platform, if I had a choice between the way Adobe is handling their next steps and the way Apple handled their next move, I'd take Adobe's method all day.

I'm sorry you feel slighted, but these two product releases, really, could not be more different. From my perspective, even though it might not feel like it, Adobe users have a lot more options.

Jeremy


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Ron Pestes
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 3:52:17 pm

Jeremy, a fair assessment but the end result is still the same to me. Even if we did not get all the updates in a buying option it still gives me access to keep our projects open years down the line. I will be keeping CS6 until I have to move on and then I don't know what I will do. Hopefully there will be some answers by then.

ronpesteshdvideo.com
Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2
JVC GY-HM600
MacBook Pro
Dell M6600
Adobe CS6 Production Premium


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on Jun 3, 2013 at 7:05:13 pm

[Ron Pestes] "Jeremy, a fair assessment but the end result is still the same to me"

I guess it feels way different to me. If I knew that FCP7 was going to be updated for a few more years to account for the ever changing OS landscape, I would feel much different.

Adobe is, essentially, giving you free and active software for just a while longer yet (provided that you have CS6 already).

Apple has given us none of the above.

I understand your concern, but from my perspective, however limited it may be, Adobe is doing a bit better of a job.


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 1:34:41 pm

While the details maybe slightly different, the essence, impact and reaction to are very similar.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:02:29 pm

[Tom Daigon] "While the details maybe slightly different, the essence, impact and reaction to are very similar."

The details are not even remotely the same.

The impact is not the same.

Only the reaction to what happened is similar, but not the same and as more facts cut through the clutter, more folks are understanding what the Cloud is and is not.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:04:16 pm

Oh Walter, sure they are :D

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:12:49 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Oh Walter, sure they are :D"

That's been my experience so far. Especially when you look at this very forum. I see about 10 or 12 people who have made the vast majority of the posts in this forum in the negative. There's hundreds of posts on this forum, but only a select few have been the most vocal on the negative.

This is on a website that gets upwards of 2 million plus visitors per month.

And Tom, as we're discovering in the past few days, the Creative Cloud puts Adobe on the same legal footing as the Apple App Store to rapidly update their applications so for that very reason, I now put the chances of Adobe staying the course of Creative Cloud Membership only moving forward to 99.5%. Adobe can't react as quickly with perpetual licenses. I was unaware of these legal restrictions on publicly traded companies.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:32:49 pm

[walter biscardi] " I see about 10 or 12 people"


you maybe need to stop trying out that - "its just ten guys, lets all sit in adobe's lap" line. Twenty seven thousand people signed the petition, there are untold numbers of tweets raging on it - John Nacks weblog is regularly a bomb site - Walter - this forum represents the viewpoint of one tool user primarily - editors.

Have you been on the photography websites lately? Or flash developers?

Seriously - I'm afraid that you're actually going to have to stop using that line Walter.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 7:47:34 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "you maybe need to stop trying out that - "its just ten guys, lets all sit in adobe's lap" line. "

Or maybe you need to not edit out the rest of that sentence to see that I'm talking about this particular forum, not the rest of the web. I see about 10 or 12 people who have made the vast majority of the posts in this forum in the negative.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Gabe Strong
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on Jun 1, 2013 at 2:56:01 am

Umm.....10 or 12 people making all the negative comments here? As opposed to the 3 or 4 who keep defending this move by Adobe here? Not sure that can really tell you anything.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on Jun 1, 2013 at 3:10:47 am

Or the tens of thousands complaining on the Web.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 30, 2013 at 11:40:09 pm

Bravo Ron. Well said.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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Charlie Austin
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 1:18:51 am

[Ron Pestes] "Then when it was released we all, myself included, got so pissed off we jumped ship and went to Adobe or Avid where we were assured that our ideas were listened to and taken seriously."

Or, we shrugged, kept working in FCP 7 while Apple listened to us and rapidly improved FXP X, and the we started using it. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:03:45 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Or, we shrugged, kept working in FCP 7 while Apple listened to us and rapidly improved FXP X, and the we started using it. ;-)
"


And it truly HAS been a rapid improvement which completely validates the Adobe switch to Creative Cloud. It puts them on equal footage as the Apple App Store to get new features out in a hurry and puts Adobe at a competitive advantage over Avid right now.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:22:50 pm

how does that work? could people please stop saying that the cloud is a magical new feature waterfall please? It was in operation the last twelve months and like, a few bits and bobs came out for PS.

It's a rationale for the rent agreement - its the thing they say when you ask them to justify it - as opposed to the more simple answer, which would be adobe pointing at your wallet.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 2:32:24 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It's a rationale for the rent agreement - its the thing they say when you ask them to justify it - as opposed to the more simple answer, which would be adobe pointing at your wallet."

So true.I find it amazing how many folks seem oblivious to the obvious. And are bamboozled by marketing hype.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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James Culbertson
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on May 31, 2013 at 11:44:30 pm

[walter biscardi] "And it truly HAS been a rapid improvement which completely validates the Adobe switch to Creative Cloud. It puts them on equal footage as the Apple App Store to get new features out in a hurry and puts Adobe at a competitive advantage over Avid right now."

If you like rapid improvement you can have it from Apple and have your perpetual license too. So, rapid improvement is not an argument for the necessity of an exclusive subscription model.

The valid argument for the necessity of an exclusive subscription model is profit. Nothing wrong with that from a business standpoint. But it has nothing to do with serving the customer's needs better. In Adobe's case it sounds like having both a perpetual license and a subscription license would serve the customer's needs the best. That way you can have your "rapid improvement" and I can have my software "ownership."


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Göran Thorén
Re: Adobe: Thanks for being no better that Apple...
on Jun 15, 2013 at 5:56:51 pm

I googled "Adobe slavery" and ended up here...
Another word that also comes to mind is serfdom.

After working as a dp and editor for twenty some years I've seen a couple of versions of different software come and go and just like the thread starter I made the decision to leave FCP for Adobe in pure desperation when Apple pulled their stunt, after using and paying for Apples software since the first FCP release. (actually my employer payed for it)

A couple of years ago I started my own one-man business and after working really, REALLY hard I was proud to have managed to purchase quite a highend bunch of software and other equipment for the money I earned without any bank loan.

When Apple did it's thing I completely changed my workflow and invested in Adobes tools and of course other software that would fit that workflow. And over all I think CS6 offered a pretty darn good workflow even if there is quite a few obvious things that is missing from an editors point of view (it's like the developers has no real grasp of how an editor works but that is another story).

Now, after only a few years I find myself in the exact same situation...

The price is not the issue. I have no problem paying for good software.
BUT I want to purchase the software I need for MY work and I want to decide for MYSELF when I need to upgrade. And (correct me if I'm wrong about this) I want to own my project files and not having to depend on a subscription plan! A subscription that demands you to have internet access to check the license, a subscription plan that without any notice can hit a pricepoint that I can't handle, risking to loose my work.
I find this insulting.

So, sadly, once again I will have to manage to come up with the money for a completely new workflow and software lineup which will cost me a great deal of money, once again...

And as for CS6 going to be developed and recieving updates? You really think Adobe is going to put effort in a software going absolete...?
What would the point of CC then be? None...

3rd party plugin developers are going to develop their tools for the latest version and the only way to stay on top software-wise is to pay for this subscription.

THIS is why serfdom is around the corner for anyone that is going to participate in this madness.
From my point of view it's an evil thing Adobe has come up with and they have lost all my respect. I will run CS6 until it's absolete. After that? Who knows which software vendor will give high promises, making me choose their software and after a while turn into a greedy monster.

Maby I'll just quit my business.

/Göran Thorén, Edit Room



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