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Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)

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Tom Daigon
Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 12:43:18 am

I think one thing that would quell the firestorm of unhappy customers would be the ability to own the current version of software at cycles end.

Several other software venders have this a part to their subscription model.

It gives us options we dont currently have with project files.

I would still maintain a cloud subscription, and I wouldnt feel like Adobe has me up against the wall. Im sure others would agree.

Tom Daigon
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walter biscardi
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 1:17:38 am

[Tom Daigon] "I think one thing that would quell the firestorm of unhappy customers would be the ability to own the current version of software at cycles end."

Why? I recently threw out boxes of CS2, FCP Studio 2 and other older software wondering why in the heck I was still keeping it around. It was old and couldn't run on anything I owned, so why keep old software sitting around.


[Tom Daigon] "I would still maintain a cloud subscription, and I wouldnt feel like Adobe has me up against the wall. Im sure others would agree."

That's redundant. Keep old software sitting on a disc while using new software from a subscription.

I guess I just really don't understand why folks HAVE to have a box or disc in their hands. We make backups of all our systems daily so if something breaks, we can restore the systems.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 1:27:31 am

Its very simple Walter, if for some reason I choose NOT to maintain my subscription, I dont forfeit the ability to access my projects or just to continue editing with the software I currently am on.

This has nothing to do with holding disks in your hand and everything to do with being in control of how you choose to conduct your business with the software you are currently purchasing and using.

I hope this option will be made available to those folks that would appreciate this solution. :D

Tom Daigon
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David Lawrence
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 1:37:53 am

[Tom Daigon] "This has nothing to do with holding disks in your hand and everything to do with being in control of how you choose to conduct your business with the software you are currently purchasing and using."

Exactly. Tom, I think your suggestion is a good one, I hope Adobe is listening.

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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 1:40:06 am

[David Lawrence] "Exactly. Tom, I think your suggestion is a good one, I hope Adobe is listening."

Thanks David. I have the highest respect for the folks at Adobe. I hope they are still listening.

Tom Daigon
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Richard Cardonna
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 2:39:01 am

Yup i cant wait till Radeke and the other adobe guys who frequent these forums show up and try to explain to whom is adobe actually listing? Just a few weeks ago when we discovered the obvious they told us to calm down and wait for the show. They should have kept quiet.

Richard


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Nick Brown
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 2:41:05 am

I'm with you David,
Let's not let Adobe forget it's not the machine but the monkey making it work that is the key to a great production.

Not everyone has the need for all of the software Adobe offers nor a need to update frequently or a budget of $50 per month for software. Adobe's subscription plan will not appeal to many loyal users. I'll take the wait and see approach because CS6 does what I need. The new feature announced at NAB were nice but I can get buy without them.

Will Adobe stick with "Cloud only subscriptions? My guess is it will be a year before the results of the approach are known. When Jason polled the audience at NAB about 10% to 20% raised their hands when asked if they had already switched to subscriptions, about another 10% to 20% raised their hands when asked if they planned to switch. I'm not sure how many in the audience were Adobe users but I suspect it was a hi percentage. I was paying for the upgrades every other version so going to a subscription would more than double my software budget. If in a year Adobe offers a reasonable upgrade plan I'll stick with them. But for now the cash drawer is closed to Adobe and my business will go on without frequent updates.

I wanted to learn Avid because there's many jobs for editors with these skills. This might be a good time to learn Avid's workflow and increase my skills making me more valuable.


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Ron Pestes
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:02:08 am

Are we sure that we can't buy the software? Like I said before, at NAB we were told we could buy it. I have been watching the forums and have not seen anything official saying it is the cloud or nothing. Where is the official statement coming from?

ronpesteshdvideo.com
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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:31:49 am

No, starting with the CS line of software being released on May 17, you can only rent the cloud.

Tom Daigon
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Gene Colburn
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:03:39 am

It is official now.

Adobe kills packaged software, bets on cloud alone
http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/cloud/adobe-kills-packaged-software-bets-on-cl...


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:20:28 am

Well for once I agree with Tom and not with Walter. When I get a stable software/hardware setup, I want to keep it running as long as I can. I'm not interested in monthly upgrades that often sacrifice that stability. I have no client sitting over my shoulder requiring the latest bells and whistles. I produce documentaries for limited, often academic audiences with footage of disappearing cultural practices in the Pacific Islands, among other things. This footage has historical value, and for that reason alone, I want to own the means of viewing and production, not to rent it. I want know that I can play it back as long as I have a computer that will run the software, and also that the software can be the exact version I cut it on. For me ownership is the only option I will consider.

I am not interested in putting my trust in the hands of any corporation when it comes to the software necessary to view and edit my work. To me it is not disposable or evanescent, something I only need to pay the bills with this month. Perhaps the rental model will work for those who only produce for the short term. I want to know I can return to a project and re-edit or repurpose it for whatever use it may have in the future without having to deal with the vagaries of software changes or corporate expediency. Not to mention the cost of this new model. Just unacceptable.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:32:41 am

I feel the same way Jim.

Tom Daigon
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David Lawrence
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:51:03 am

[Jim Wiseman] "I am not interested in putting my trust in the hands of any corporation when it comes to the software necessary to view and edit my work. To me it is not disposable or evanescent, something I only need to pay the bills with this month. Perhaps the rental model will work for those who only produce for the short term. I want to know I can return to a project and re-edit or repurpose it for whatever use it may have in the future without having to deal with the vagaries of software changes or corporate expediency. Not to mention the cost of this new model. Just unacceptable."

Well said, Jim.

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Tim Kolb
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:42:25 am

[Tom Daigon] "I think one thing that would quell the firestorm of unhappy customers would be the ability to own the current version of software at cycles end."

I don't really think you'll see "cycles" any more in the sense they've existed in the past...and that was part of the point.

With all applications dropping simultaneously, each app was constricted to the same timeline. If Premiere Pro had something great that would take 4 more weeks to perfect and everything else was ready on release date, it got withdrawn as you couldn't hold up the show for one application. Now each application can develop on its own, adding each improvement as they go.

Modifying existing software that has already been sold is a PITN from an SEC-scrutinized accounting standpoint as where you account for costs, and whether you have to restate earnings in small variations for something you patched today that was released 6 months ago...I can't even imagine the costs of just keeping track of all of it.

With a subscription, it's an ongoing relationship and income and costs get accounted for at the time they happen. Adobe can act faster and separately on each application as necessary, and users pay in small increments instead of one large sum that basically buys them a spot on the chronology that is already being made obsolete by the time they can buy the product due to always continuing development.

If you were to keep the software with no additional activation...how long should you own it before that would be available? 3 months? 6 months? After 6 months at 50.00 USD/mth, you haven't even paid for one copy of Premiere Pro at current prices, why should you be able to keep Adobe's software catalog (what creative cloud is...complete) after spending 300 USD? Maybe only PPro, AE, Prelude, PS, IL, Encore, AME after a year and 600 USD? (almost the list price of Premiere Pro now...).

If you can carry on business with Media Composer and Gimp to save less money per month than a lot of us spend in coffee shops, then I guess you should take your stand...

For 1000.00 you can own Media Composer forever, or you can use every piece of software in Adobe's catalog for 20 months...

Of course that comparison may be a little premature...you'll probably want the Media Composer upgrade that comes along after 12 months...which will still be more than 50 bucks...

This argument is hard to make with actual math...it doesn't work short-term, and it just falls apart long-term.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:27:29 am

I can say briefly there are other high end venders that make this combination subscription/ownership model work (Autodesk and Maxon come to mind with some minor variations).

I choose not to give up so easily when there are viable solutions. We will see just how well Adobe listens. Avid didnt over the years. Look where they are. Apple didnt either and we know the backlash that happened in the industry. I prefer to think Adobe is smarter those those other companies.

Tom Daigon
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Chris Harlan
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:47:47 am

[Tom Daigon] "We will see just how well Adobe listens."

I get where you are coming from, Tom; but I don't really think this counts as Adobe not listening. At the end of the day, I want top notch tools, and if this is what they have to do to deliver that, I'm willing to listen, too.


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:54:35 am

[Chris Harlan] "and if this is what they have to do to deliver that"

I think your are making a flawed assumption here, Chris. Maybe theres a chance they are doing this just to make more money. Seems outlandish that a Corporation would want to do something like that, right :D

And even with the rate hike, they still could have figured out a method similar to Autodesk or Maxon where you purchase AND subscribe to the software. Which means you own it and can stop anytime its appropriate for your business needs. But they didnt do that one either.

Tom Daigon
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Chris Harlan
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 6:46:55 am

[Tom Daigon] "I think your are making a flawed assumption here, Chris. Maybe theres a chance they are doing this just to make more money. Seems outlandish that a Corporation would want to do something like that, right :D
"


Well, neither of us has their books, and I'm not sure what's wrong with making money. The price doesn't seem extreme to me, especially for cutting edge tools.

[Tom Daigon] "And even with the rate hike, they still could have figured out a method similar to Autodesk or Maxon where you purchase AND subscribe to the software. Which means you own it and can stop anytime its appropriate for your business needs. But they didnt do that one either."

I'm not a fan of the rental only model, though I am now a Cloud User. I do wish I'd waited on that until June. And, to be fair, I'm not really a hostage, in that I'm only a moderate AE user, and am quite happy in Media Composer.

I get the pain. I'm ambivalent about the decision. But, I think its done.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 6:56:37 am

[Tom Daigon] "I think your are making a flawed assumption here, Chris. Maybe theres a chance they are doing this just to make more money. Seems outlandish that a Corporation would want to do something like that, right :D
"


Well, neither of us has their books, and I'm not sure what's wrong with making money. The price doesn't seem extreme to me, especially for cutting edge tools.


[Tom Daigon] "And even with the rate hike, they still could have figured out a method similar to Autodesk or Maxon where you purchase AND subscribe to the software. Which means you own it and can stop anytime its appropriate for your business needs. But they didnt do that one either."

I'm not a fan of the rental only model, though I am now a Cloud User. I do wish I'd waited on that until June. And, to be fair, I'm not really a hostage, in that I'm only a moderate AE user, and am quite happy in Media Composer.


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Al Bergstein
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 10:31:11 am

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html

Worth reading

Al


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Walter Soyka
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 1:59:04 pm

[Tom Daigon] "I think your are making a flawed assumption here, Chris. Maybe theres a chance they are doing this just to make more money. Seems outlandish that a Corporation would want to do something like that, right :D"

Perpetual rental isn't my favorite software licensing model, either. But if the software itself is changing into something new, maybe the model needs to change, too.

Have you read the open letter?

http://adobe.com/go/creativevision

When Creative Suite first launched, there was no real integration between applications. Creative Suite was a convenient way to license multiple products and get a single installer. It took several versions before we started to see the fruits of a suite orientation: things like unified UIs and dynamic link. (There were a few false starts, too, like the stock store and Version Cue.)

Creative Suite was launched around the (at the time) big idea that one single person might want to use more than one Adobe application, and might want them to work together.

My take on Creative Cloud is that it's built around the big idea that connecting people, applications, and resources is the new challenge for digital content creators. Creative Cloud, a mix of products and services, can work toward this goal in a way that products without services cannot.

Did you watch the keynote address yesterday? Did you see the example where they talked about exposing shake reduction or refine soft matte technologies to other non-Adobe developers via APIs running on the cloud? Maybe this isn't the best use case for this new orientation, but I'm excited about the idea of CC being more than bundle of products -- it's a platform with some kind of "connectedness" behind it.

There's a lot of potential here in Creative Cloud that I think is not evident today anymore than a technology like dynamic link was when Creative Suite was first launched.

Does Adobe want to make more money? Sure they do -- don't you?

I don't think Adobe is trying to squeeze their user base; I think they're trying to provide a better and more compelling offering.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Michael Hendrix
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 12:18:39 pm

Question Tom, lets say at the end of the cycle (probably one year) would you pay say $750 to keep that version (talking about the Master Collection)?

In my mind, that would be the only way this could work and I am pretty sure most would scream bloody murder at that price point.

The other problem I see is Adobe might open the software up to cracks and hacks.



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Richard Cardonna
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 1:03:04 pm

The cloud wont stop cracks nor hacks if anything these will increase.

Richard


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 2:32:08 pm

Who cares about cracks or hacks - I run under the assumption that everyone who weighs in here is a professional at some level, and, as such, buys the products in whichever form or manner they choose. As long as there is software, there's going to be someone trying to get it for free. As a matter of fact, as long as there's been anything you have to pay for, there's been someone trying to get it for free. Do you think the Cloud, or lack of it, is going to change human nature?

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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John Baumchen
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 2:56:47 pm

I can see it now. Adobe locks everyone into their clod, er, cloud and suddenly you hand off a project to an outside editor still using CS6 and it won't open, (does this remind anyone of what another company did about a year ago?), and they up the rates 200%. Yes, I've heard some say that other companies don't increase their cloud prices, but as the prospectus always says, "past performance is no guarantee of future returns".

Right now, I only have to fork over money to Adobe if I want the latest version. If not, I can continue to edit and create. The new paradigm makes me a hostage to their marketing and accounting departments. Thanks but no thanks.


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walter biscardi
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:01:10 pm

[John Baumchen] "suddenly you hand off a project to an outside editor still using CS6 and it won't open, ("

That happens now doesn't it when you hand off to someone who has CS5. If that happens, you hand off an XML which is what we do here to move projects to / from FCP.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:01:26 pm

[John Baumchen] "Right now, I only have to fork over money to Adobe if I want the latest version. If not, I can continue to edit and create. The new paradigm makes me a hostage to their marketing and accounting departments. Thanks but no thanks."

Exactly the point! Im surprised so many folks dont get this or are in complete denial :D

Tom Daigon
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walter biscardi
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:06:06 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Exactly the point! Im surprised so many folks dont get this or are in complete denial :D"

Or, maybe it's that so many folks have accepted this paradigm and embrace the change with the positives it offers. We completely get it and we're not in denial.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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walter biscardi
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:12:00 pm

One thing that will be interesting if Adobe were to roll out perpetual licenses, but those folks would only get updates on a regular schedule, say twice a year, while Cloud users will be getting updates multiple times per month at times. Then there will be this huge outcry again, "why don't we get the updates, I want all those new features NOW. I paid for the yearly license."

Either way, Adobe will get blamed.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:18:35 pm

Not true Walter. I would be very happy with that option. And lots of folks Ive talked to would be fine with that as well. Never assume anything.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
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walter biscardi
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:22:39 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Never assume anything."

You mean like assuming "people don't get it or are in denial?"

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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John Baumchen
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:20:46 pm

I for one, have never clamoured for updates and I don't recall seeing many demands for them, unless the program was broken, which was often the case 5 years ago. I am content to wait for the new versions and have regularly upgraded five suites to the master collection every year, but this is capricious.


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 3:22:18 pm

[John Baumchen] " but this is capricious."

Thats a good word for it John. "Nuts" also comes to mind :D

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
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64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Stephen Bakopanos
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 5:20:09 pm

For all the whinging going on this thread has it occurred to anyone that the ability to roll out updates and upgrades in a more timely fashion might actually increase productivity for us end users and thus save us time and money?

Also had everyone forgotten the FCPx debacle? It would seem so... Back then everyone was complaining that Apple didn't listen and that it had abandoned its user base. Now we have a company that's listening to its users and rolling out a raft of useful requested features, but it would seem as though most people would prefer to ignore that and instead clamour over one another to complain the loudest over a little price increase.


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 9:34:08 pm

[walter biscardi] "Or, maybe it's that so many folks have accepted this paradigm and embrace the change with the positives it offers. We completely get it and we're not in denial."

^^ This. I think it's partly a matter of perspective now. What Walter Soyka said earlier bears repeating:

[Walter Soyka] "But if the software itself is changing into something new, maybe the model needs to change, too."

I'm not stoked about the Cloud. But I'm not against it either. There are some advantages. There are some disadvantages. The model is changing. Period. It's worth pushing back if you're discontent. Or as Walter wrote on his blog, "Who cares, it’s just software. You know how many pieces of software are available today that edit video well? A lot. I’m really happy with my decision to switch to Adobe a year ago..."

There is something a bit reminiscent about all this of Apple, 2011, and some program called FCP7. It is not a direct correlation. But having gotten over licking my wounds from 2011 and FCPX, I'm feeling a little bristley at what appears to be a heavy handed move by Adobe and the CC. It appears I'm being forced to accept a new model/paradigm similar to 2011 (though to be fair this one is over licensing, not changing the paradigm of editing or software UI).

In the end, if you like what Adobe is offering in the NLE/web/print department (and I do) then people are going to pay for it. If the product stinks, us consumers/professionals will move to the software that does address our needs. Who knows....maybe we'll be back on FCPX in a few years! :-)

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 9:43:43 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "But having gotten over licking my wounds from 2011 and FCPX, I'm feeling a little bristley at what appears to be a heavy handed move by Adobe and the CC. It appears I'm being forced to accept a new model/paradigm similar to 2011 (though to be fair this one is over licensing, not changing the paradigm of editing or software UI)."

Exactly. CS6 is a great tool. I am sticking with it.Renting for me is wrong in so many ways.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
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Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
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Ryan Holmes
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 10:10:50 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Exactly. CS6 is a great tool. I am sticking with it.Renting for me is wrong in so many ways."

My point of departure with you is likely that I will be moving to the CC. CS6 is good, but the benefits of the new software outweigh the costs for me. And if it really is as bad and dangerous as some seem to think I'll pull the rip cord next summer and move to a new NLE by exporting XML/EDL/AAF out to my new app of choice.

I can't really get over how all the rhetoric today feels drastically similar to June 21, 2011. The FCP boards back in those days had some fired up people....not too unlike today. Difference is that FCPX was a clunker out of the gate. It actually couldn't (i.e. didn't have ability to) fulfill what I needed it to in my workflow. With Adobe Premiere Pro CC, After Effects CC, Speedgrade CC, AME CC all do exactly what I need and do it faster by taking better advantage of my hardware. The licensing model changes, but that's not as bad as a complete app overhaul that strips away core functionality of an editing app (SAN support, XML/OMF support, etc.).

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 10:18:57 pm

Best of luck Ryan.

If they ever adapt a model more akin to Autodesk or Maxon where I can "Subscribe to Own" (or something similar) I will be back in a flash :D

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
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walter biscardi
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 11:47:05 pm

[Ryan Holmes] " CS6 is good, but the benefits of the new software outweigh the costs for me. "

Adobe really did some kick ass work with CC. Definitely worth the investment just in the efficiency of the workflow.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Chris Harlan
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 1:24:53 am

[walter biscardi] "[Ryan Holmes] " CS6 is good, but the benefits of the new software outweigh the costs for me. "

Adobe really did some kick ass work with CC. Definitely worth the investment just in the efficiency of the workflow.
"


From everything I have seen, I'd say that is true. I'm quite excited to get my hands on it.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 4:25:15 pm

[Tom Daigon] "[John Baumchen] "Right now, I only have to fork over money to Adobe if I want the latest version. If not, I can continue to edit and create. The new paradigm makes me a hostage to their marketing and accounting departments. Thanks but no thanks."

Exactly the point! Im surprised so many folks dont get this or are in complete denial :D
"


Or, you can go away for a year and a half, and then come back for a month on a single program, if you want.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 7:38:07 pm

And what guarantee is there that my program/project will open in the same way or not be broken by updates in a year and half (two years, three years. 5 years? I have a G5 Power Mac with 10.4 and 10.5.8 I keep for old projects. Also a a G4 Dual, almost 10 years old with an XR Media 100 and whatever Adobe software I could get it up to. I even have a new Quadra 950 still in the box as a spare for my old Avid MC. They still work fine when I need them. Thats one reason I buy Apple products. Quality. No thanks. I want reference points in my software. Software I own. If I had rented the software for all of my my machines over the last 20 years I have been doing nonlinear editing the money would have paid off at least one nice car or maybe my house. And I still wouldn't own the software.

If people want CC and constant updates, fine, let them have them. Just don't force everyone to follow this model. If I can't own it, I won't use it. I work on historical academic projects (as well as others that pay better) and I don't want to risk my work and my programs to this kind of mindless "Oh it can be so much better every month" mentality. I'm thinking long term and want access to all my work years from now. This is just extortion for many of us.

I'm really glad I didn't put a lot of bucks into a custom Adobe Premiere system. I was going to do that and CS7. (Ahh, CS7 and FCP8!) Just out a GTX 285 for MPE at this point. A lot of people here are into it for a lot more than that, so I am not surprised they are following Adobe into whatever distribution model they are going to do. I just hope Adobe realizes that this one sided affair will not stand for many if not most in the long run. I will keep a boot drive locked on CS 6 on 10.6.8 and 10.8.x with backup clones on my 2010 Mac Pro until seldom needed spare parts are no longer available before I succumb to this nonsense.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 7:40:25 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "If I can't own it, I won't use it. I"

Thats my motto as well. CS6 has been and will be a great work horse.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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walter biscardi
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 7:40:52 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "If people want CC and constant updates, fine, let them have them. Just don't force everyone to follow this model."

Just for clarification, you do not have to update anything. You have the option to not update.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Jim Wiseman
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 7:47:19 pm

Then what is the point for me to join CC? To have the privilege of paying Adobe for the rest of my life to stay locked on a version? That quits working and makes my projects inaccessible if I quit paying? Makes no sense to me.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Stephen Bakopanos
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 8:30:41 pm

Don't know about everyone else, but there's no way in hell I'd be sitting on two year old software when there's more recent stuff out there that let's me do more in less time. I certainly couldn't see myself staying on CS6 once CC comes out (heck, the paste attributes update alone will save me $50/month in productivity gains). Sure, stability and compatibility is a factor, but you don't have to upgrade until you're ready to do so (and honestly, it's not as if CS6 is perfectly stable anyway)...

Maybe upgrading is not an issue if all you're doing is basic cutting (in which case just stay with CS6 or FCP7 for the rest of eternity), but for most people I'd imagine regular upgrades is the norm.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 8:14:07 pm

Yeah. I don't know what to say about that. You do what you have to do. I'm not thrilled with the Cloud-only model, but I'm also not going to give up using Adobe tools, either. They just offer me too much of an advantage.

I DO have an old G5 that I haven't fired up in 5 years, but my old Montage, D/Vision, and Speed Razor systems are in dumps, somewhere. I have most of my work from back then, in the form of files and stems and on Beta tape and 3/4SP passes, which, frankly, I never access. In fact, if I needed to get back into those old 3/4's right now, it would probably be a lot more expensive than a month of CC, and that's if they actually still have integrity.

I'm just having a hard time getting bent out of shape over this. I'd like it not to be this way, but the reality is that I'm going to adapt.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 7, 2013 at 11:20:28 pm

But Chris -

What if the five or ten angry people on the forums here really do opt out of the CC? What will Adobe do for money? :>)

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 1:14:29 am

It's more than five or ten angry people Joe. You need to check out the Mac news sites. Mac Rumors has over 600 post running heavily against CC.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 1:21:23 am

I know, Jim - I was just trying to lighten things up a bit - I know that there's a real sense of loss and betrayal among some people posting here, and I'm not laughing about it. I went through Edit* withdrawal, and I know what it feels like. But I don't think this is a serious as it may seem at first blush. I hope...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Stephen Bakopanos
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 3:36:34 am

[Jim Wiseman] "
It's more than five or ten angry people Joe. You need to check out the Mac news sites. Mac Rumors has over 600 post running heavily against CC.
"


Yeah, but must of those are 12 year old iPhone fanboys or idiots who think the software is actually cloud based... both of which are probably more concerned about how it will effect their ability to pirate the software. I'd wager that only a small minority of them actually use the software for professional purposes.

As far as I'm concerned, if a professional can't afford $12.50/week to obtain the tools they need for their job, then they're probably in the wrong line of work.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 3:44:29 am

Not the ones I've been reading Stephen. Most are concerned about future access to their work without paying a lifetime ransom to Adobe.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Stephen Bakopanos
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 4:12:52 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Not the ones I've been reading Stephen. Most are concerned about future access to their work without paying a lifetime ransom to Adobe"

Oh please... As if you're going still be using the same software version a decade from now. Regardless of whether you are on subscription or perpetual, the reality is that most people upgrade every version or two, so in effect you're stuck paying a lifetime ransom either way. The issue here is about cost. You're unhappy about a price increase, and I understand that (personally I think there should be a Production CC subscription at a reduced rate), but I really don't think the price is prohibitively expensive for a professional that uses these tools to generate an income. I certainly wouldn't be ditching the suite over it..,


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David Lawrence
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 4:39:00 am

[Stephen Bakopanos] "Regardless of whether you are on subscription or perpetual, the reality is that most people upgrade every version or two, so in effect you're stuck paying a lifetime ransom either way. The issue here is about cost."

Nonsense. The issue is that with a perpetual license, you can still open your files three, five or ten years from now after you've already purchased the software. You never have to worry about your tools disappearing after you've spent thousands of dollars on them.

Today, I'm doing a data forensics job for a colleague who needs access to documents created in 1993-2000. All the applications on the ancient Toshiba laptop where the documents were created still work fine. We were able to do a full copy and verify the integrity of the copies by comparing the copied files on a new Mac with the original files opened in the original applications on the laptop. These files are worth thousands of dollars to my colleague's client and I'm being paid well for this job. The only reason we can do this is because the software still works, twenty years later.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Jim Wiseman
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 5:14:03 am

Couldn't have said it better, David. I recently saved one of my clients about $20,000 of employee time because I resurrected a 40 field 35mm slide information Filemaker database from 1996 of about 7,000 records that would have had to be reentered manually from paper printouts. I had to run it through three versions of Filemaker, that I still owned, and had computers it would run on, to get it up to a version they could use. I also had made the backup CD from 1996 that contained the file. If this had been my video work from that period, which is irreplaceable historic footage of Pacific island cultural practices, I would have been apoplectic. Not all of us are making stuff that is used once and never seen again. The Creative Cloud pay or it's gone model is not for me.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 2:11:20 pm

[Jim Wiseman] " The Creative Cloud pay or it's gone model is not for me."

Or me either. CS6 is just as powerful as ever. The few changes made are things I can live without. At least I own this version and can use it as I see fit.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 2:06:21 pm

[David Lawrence] "Nonsense. The issue is that with a perpetual license, you can still open your files three, five or ten years from now after you've already purchased the software. You never have to worry about your tools disappearing after you've spent thousands of dollars on them."

Well said David.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 1:21:35 am

Oh. I know, Joe. But I really don't want to demean people's feelings, here. I feel a tad trepidatious, too. It's not an insignificant change to the rules. What if everybody looked at Adobe and decided this is was the way to do it? I don't think I'd like that world. So, while some of the protestations may be a bit outlandish, I don't think any of them are entirely without merit. I doubt my mind will change about using Adobe tools, but its probably an appropriate discussion to keep having.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 2:49:29 am

I'm with you there, Chris. I especially like to hear the thoughts of people who are diametrically opposed to my thoughts. Sometimes my opinions get changed...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Tim Dowse
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 4:28:50 pm

The thing is you're not completely hostage to Adobe. You can export EDL/XML or some other inter-changable format, when you "finish" projects / cancel your CC subscription. You've still got your footage (which will likely be unusable in 10 years time when we're all editing 10k footage on some codec that hasn't even been imagined yet). You'll still have your exported, finished film. Yes, it will take longer to resurrect a project based on those resources alone, yes you may have to rebuild filters, corrections, etc... but you're certainly not losing any irreplaceable historic footage of Pacific island cultural practices.

I do sympathize with people's concerns, though. I hope at the least they release a "production premium" style subscription price point for around $30.

Also, my gut feeling is that if people are suddenly stranded because of a price hike by Adobe that no one wants to pay (which would be bad business on their part, but anyhow...) some clever clogs will write some software allowing you to open PrPro files and save them as some other format. And probably charge $50 a month for the privelege :)


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Tom Daigon
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 4:35:20 pm

[Tim Dowse] " The thing is you're not completely hostage to Adobe. You can export EDL/XML or some other inter-changable format, when you "finish" projects / cancel your CC subscription."

This doesnt work very well for PrP projects that are dynamically linked to AE which might have 50 layers and effects.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 4:52:01 pm

[Tom Daigon] "This doesnt work very well for PrP projects that are dynamically linked to AE which might have 50 layers and effects."

You can export out a self-containted file from AE and replace your dynamically linked with footage with an actual mov or avi or whatever. Then your footage is baked onto the timeline (and you'll still have the AE project file if you need to tweak later).

Tom I know you know this, but for others reading these threads is why I point it out. It's not an insurmountable problem that you're bringing up. It's a pain for sure. But as Tim says, you could move your film from PPro to something else and still get it done. Lord knows I did that in 2011 when moving from one platform to another (in fact, I still open XML's from old FCP projects into CS6 for editing).

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Tim Dowse
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 8, 2013 at 5:28:40 pm

Yes, what Ryan said. I was going to write that, but you beat me to it.

My main point is that, with a bit of forward planning,you're not quite as royally f***ed if you cancel your subscription as people seem to be suggesting with the statement "hostage to adobe". Is it ideal? No, it clearly isn't, and I do understand your concerns. I'd prefer it to be different. But it's a workaround that will still give you access

But adobe's offering is still pretty amazing. The depth and breadth of their software is phenomenal. If I was starting my own business, I'd subscribe to CC for sure. Tiny upfront cost. While I won't "trust" a corporation in any meaningful sense, my bet is that they'll stay relatively affordable for the foreseeable future. The alternative? Buy Smoke for $3500... that's over 5 years of CC without any upgrade, and still be stuck without photoshop? And I don't see anyone else offering a product to compete with the bundle of Pr/Ae/Sg/Au/En/Ps/Ai

I wonder if they made the following suggestion, you'd be okay with it:

You can buy a perpetual license for the current software version, but only one program at a time. Each programme will cost you $700, and you can never upgrade. There are no bundles. Would the license in perpetuity be worth that price? If not, what price would? If yes, how high would you go?


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Gabe Strong
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 9, 2013 at 7:17:03 pm

I don't spend money at a coffee shop, so that comparison goes over my head. I also do not understand people that lease a car with the reasoning that 'I will always trade in my car for the newest version anyways so I might as well have a perpetual payment and get to always have the newest car'. I'd rather have the opportunity to own the car. Same with my living situation, I bought a place instead of renting. If I buy software and don't think they give me enough incentive to upgrade to the newest version, I don't upgrade. I have went three versions before upgrading before (FCP 4 -FCP 7.). By some poster's logic, cell phone and cable companies should be the most innovative companies around. They use this exact subscription model so they should be pumping out regular improvements and innovations, right?

The problem is one size doesn't fit all, regardless of how many 'pro cloud' users tell us that we are 'creating FUD' or are 'complaining about less money than we spend at coffee shops.'. Some of us professional editors want the CHOICE! I chose to go to CS6 from FCP 7. Now I will probably be one of the shortest term Adobe converts ever as I will be moving elsewhere.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Tim Dowse
Re: Solution to Cloud conundrum (for many folks)
on May 9, 2013 at 9:11:27 pm

By some poster's logic, cell phone and cable companies should be the most innovative companies around.

cell phones? You don't think the iPhone (and the subsequent smart-phone revolution) was innovative? Do you think that would have been made had people not been subscribing to cell phone service providers?

Some of us professional editors want the CHOICE!

You didn't have the choice before. You could either buy the perpetual license, or not own the product.

You are of course welcome to move to different software. But my guess is that you'll be paying a whole lot more money to get the equivalent tool set (or less than equivalent in many cases, photoshop and AE probably being the best examples). If you feel that having the product in perpetuity is worth that price difference, then of course that's a good decision.


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