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So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?

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Steve Connor
So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 5:08:54 pm

By now we know who doesn't like the idea, but who here, apart from Walter, thinks that what Adobe are doing is a good or even an acceptable idea?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Chris Borjis
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 5:31:02 pm

I'm not happy about being forced into a subscription only model,
but truth be told, at least at my facility, the cost will be
just a bit more than I paid for new versions or upgrades.
(being able to run 2 seats now at the cost of one mainly)

again not happy about being forced into it, but for the good
of my business, I have no other choice. The Adobe production
premium suite meets all my daily needs and we use every one
of the applications.

There are many key updates I'm looking forward to and had
CC actually been version 7 and perpetual, I probably would
NOT proceed with a CC subscription if they'd implemented it
on the next version (lets call it CS 8) coming out next year.



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Tom Daigon
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 5:35:57 pm

[Chris Borjis] "again not happy about being forced into it, but for the good
of my business, I have no other choice."


I find it quite sad that so many folks are saying the same thing.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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Kris Merkel
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:08:05 pm

There are really not that many, compared to the overall user base. If you can find information that contradicts that statement. please share.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
twitter: @kris_merkel
Product Manager, Flanders Scientific Inc.
http://www.shopfsi.com
Co-Founder, Atlanta Cutters Post Production User Group
http://www.atlantacutters.com

2.2Ghz MBP core i7
16Gb RAM
CS6/FCP7
AJA T-Tap
AJA IO XT
FSI LM-2461W/CM-170W







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Greg Andonian
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:16:26 pm

[Kris Merkel] There are really not that many, compared to the overall user base. If you can find information that contradicts that statement, please share.

Someone from Adobe should be answering fairly shortly... ;)

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Kris Merkel
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:24:04 pm

I spoke with them directly last night and they have already answered. in many different ways.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
twitter: @kris_merkel
Product Manager, Flanders Scientific Inc.
http://www.shopfsi.com
Co-Founder, Atlanta Cutters Post Production User Group
http://www.atlantacutters.com

2.2Ghz MBP core i7
16Gb RAM
CS6/FCP7
AJA T-Tap
AJA IO XT
FSI LM-2461W/CM-170W







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Gary Huff
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 8:31:49 pm

[Kris Merkel] "I spoke with them directly last night and they have already answered. in many different ways."

There are only so many ways you can say:

"The Creative Cloud's the future of Creative and when you look at the value that customers ... are getting through the Creative Cloud, we just think that that's phenomenal value for our customers."


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Dave LaRonde
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 9:15:23 pm

[Kris Merkel] ""Think of everything in terms of building capacity.""

And what precisely is THAT supposed to mean?

That you have some special-person insights into Adobe's Grand Plan? That they proffered up some Doublespeak and you swallowed it?

Please elaborate.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Brandon Cordy
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 5:48:22 pm

I think CC is a good idea.

As for CC-only, it depends upon if Adobe delivers on the improved speed of innovation and how that translates to actual use. I do think smaller tiers for more specialized users would be beneficial, however, as would releasing older outdated versions of the software for use if people decide to retire or what have you.


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Paul Neumann
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:26:17 pm

I'm all in on it. Anytime you can remove constraints on your developers you need to do that. That's part of what Adobe is doing. But that's just part of it. Yes, it means more frequent updates/improvements/new features for the existing suite of products, but it also means there's an easier path to bring brand new products to market quicker and with higher quality. Again, this is in the realm of "things you haven't even thought about."

All the "I just need this and this and that and nothing else" (kinda like Navin R. Johnson) talk might fit where you are right now, but what you need to deliver is going to change and so are the tools you'll need to do it. That's what the CC will provide.

$50 a month sounds more than fair to me. That's the cost of doing business.


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Brandon Cordy
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:33:34 pm

For me, the whole package is awesome - I want and need everything Adobe's offering plus more.

I just know a lot of people here only use Premiere, After Effects, and Photoshop and have vehemently stated they don't want everything else.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:41:17 pm

@ Paul Neumann: The tools I'll need in the future could just as easily be provided in a Perpetual annual license model. Adobe seems to be the only major software company to go this far out on a limb, and the trip out there has certainly been less than graceful. I'm not willing to give up my software or my projects when I quit renting. Leave both models out there, best one wins.

Security for your projects. That's what annual Perpetual Licensing provides.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Paul Neumann
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:50:58 pm

But not as timely or QA'd when they're held to a 12-18 month release cycle. If a product is 6 months away and the next big update is 2 months away then it may end up sitting there waiting for the next big release. Meanwhile somebody else releases their product to provide the functionality and everybody will be saying "Man, Adobe sure missed the boat on that."

It's the consumerization of IT. It changes quick. Adobe is an IT company. They have to keep up. I dig that you'll don't necessarily have to. But again, that's the cost of doing business.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 8:01:16 pm

@ Paul Neumann: I'm not just doing "business" with it. These are creative tools for art and documentaries for me and tens of thousands of others, if not millions. You don't seem to get the importance of the fact that everything goes "poof" If you quit. I don't give d**n if my commercials and corporate videos disappear. I sure as hell do if my art and documentary footage becomes un-editable. There is far too much IT speak and Wall Steet dollar orientation for software people do emotionally involving work with. Not everyone is making sausages. It's not like Adobe isn't making a good profit. I heard on one thread it was about a billion last annual report, but have not checked that figure. That was with both models and a trial low pricing on CC plus Perpetual.

And annual releases allow more time for QA for the most part than if they are rushing to keep people happy on the Cloud and up to their promises for it. It wouldn't be as likely to get dumped on the user as it has so many times in the past. That's been my experience on the Mac at least. It takes several months to get the bugs out.

I do get there are costs to using software and I'm willing to pay. Again why not both models, or a reasonable route to Perpetual? Who is that going to hurt?

Ars Longa, Vita Brevis
Art is long, Life is Short

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Brett Sherman
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 8:57:02 pm

[Paul Neumann] "If a product is 6 months away and the next big update is 2 months away then it may end up sitting there waiting for the next big release."

You're making an assumption that Adobe has to keep their products in a bundle. If you could buy a la carte then it wouldn't be such a big deal. Premiere is released when it needs to be regardless of when Photoshop is released. Apple doesn't release Logic, FCP and Aperature all in tandem. Adobe doesn't have to either. But let's be honest, this is about money. Not logistics or customer needs.



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Tom Daigon
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 8:58:50 pm

[Brett Sherman] " But let's be honest, this is about money. Not logistics or customer needs."

Exactly.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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Brandon Cordy
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 9:20:56 pm

I'm sure money is a part of it, but there are some logistical and customer needs met with CC that aren't met with the traditional box software. Adobe Story is an example for me.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 9:23:29 pm

[Brandon Cordy] "Adobe Story is an example for me."

Let's see how log that particular piece of software remains viable.
I hope they don't yank the rug out from under your feet! Under the new model, they could do it at any time without notification, y'know.....

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Herb Sevush
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 7:49:32 pm

[Paul Neumann] "but it also means there's an easier path to bring brand new products to market quicker and with higher quality."

I don't get the connection - what makes the Cloud a better spur for new products than the Apple Store or any other means of internet distribution?

As for faster updates - FCPX has gotten a new update every 2 months for 2 years (they've needed it, but that's a different topic)without being a Cloud based subscription service.

With most companies on a typical 12 month release cycle I've never felt "left behind" before - why the sudden need for faster releases, other than to address new codecs as they become popular, which hasn't needed a Cloud subscription from anyone before.

The most important spur to product development has always been R&D budget - what does the Cloud have to do with this?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Dave LaRonde
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 9:03:47 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I don't get the connection - what makes the Cloud a better spur for new products than the Apple Store or any other means of internet distribution?"

Four words, and I bet you figured them out already: "they're grasping at straws".

In marketing lingo, they're trying to turn a feature that goes unnoticed by most into a benefit.

There are puh-lenty of Adobe users who could care less about having bleeding-edge features, and Adobe's trying to tell those folks that this is something they can't live without.

But you already knew that.......

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Paul Neumann
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 9:07:01 pm

You'd still be waiting for a FCP7 replacement had Apple not changed the way they did things. The improvements to X are the result of continuous and less-constrained development. You can debate how well they're doing with this, but that's what they're doing. And it's all driven by their hardware and devices which are continuously in development.

Adobe is doing the same thing. The difference is the driver for Adobe is a software product. And aren't the new Macs better than the old Macs? And isn't CC better than CS6? (I know, not out yet, but pretend it's June 17.)


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Dave LaRonde
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 9:21:02 pm

[Paul Neumann] "...You'd still be waiting for a(n) FCP7 replacement had Apple not changed the way they did things"

Pray tell, how do you know this FOR A FACT?

Do you have insider access to the the Apple Inner Circle as well as the Adobe Inner Circle?

And if you don't, what is your logic behind that statement other than wishful thinking?

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 9:25:34 pm

[Paul Neumann] "The improvements to X are the result of continuous and less-constrained development."

Yeah, very doubtful. Apple is notorious for using early adopters as beta-testers. They do it all the time.

I guarantee you X was in a rough/unfinished state upon release. What we have now should have been 10.0.0. But Apple can use its customer base as guinea pigs essentially and has rarely suffered blowback for it (Maps being an exception).


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Herb Sevush
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 2:53:08 pm

[Paul Neumann] "You'd still be waiting for a FCP7 replacement had Apple not changed the way they did things."

I still am waiting for a FCP7 replacement precisely because Apple changed the way they do things.

[Paul Neumann] "The improvements to X are the result of continuous and less-constrained development. You can debate how well they're doing with this, but that's what they're doing. And it's all driven by their hardware and devices which are continuously in development. Adobe is doing the same thing. The difference is the driver for Adobe is a software product. And aren't the new Macs better than the old Macs?"

Well I've been waiting 3 years for a new Mac Pro, and that with Apple being "driven by their hardware and devices which are continuously in development." So for me the answer is no, the new, non-existent Mac Pros are not as good as the old ones, because it's hard to bill for work done on a computer that doesn't exist.

For that matter most of the so called "improvements" to FCPX are merely catch-ups because the original release wasn't even up to Beta testing standards. Pretty much all the FCPX releases can be considered a bug fix, the bug being X itself, which sidesteps the whole SOX problem, so I don't see how any talk of "less-constrained" development applies.

Funny how this whole notion that the video editing world was being "constrained" because of yearly development schedules has never been voiced until Adobe comes up with a new distribution scheme that pissed off so many of their users that they had to figure out some way to justify it. In this way it does resemble the FCPX release - Adobe is marketing the Cloud as a solution to a problem that nobody ever realized they had.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Dave LaRonde
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 3:11:22 pm

[Herb Sevush] "...Adobe is marketing the Cloud as a solution to a problem that nobody ever realized they had."

Truer words were never written!

And before someone invokes foolish words like, "Isn't that what Steve Jobs did with the iPod, iPhone and iPad?" the answer is a resounding NO.

Jobs introduced totally different products that met desires people didn't know they had, and they quickly attained widespread use.

Adobe is introducing a totally different way to procure its products that few people desire, banking on its products' longtime widespread use.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Walter Soyka
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 5:07:21 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "Adobe is introducing a totally different way to procure its products that few people desire, banking on its products' longtime widespread use."

If Adobe is able to deliver services alongside their products (and looking at their recent acquisitions, it seems that they are putting their money where their mouth is), then Creative Cloud will be a lot more than a new way to pay for Creative Suite.

I compared CC to Twitter a couple days ago. Twitter looked pretty useless when it launched (sorry, mate, but I don't care what you had for lunch), but the network effect combined with the creativity of its users made it very cool after all -- and that's not the sort of thing you can put in a box.

I think CC could go the same way, but it will take a little time to get there.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dave LaRonde
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 5:19:31 pm

[Walter Soyka] "...I compared CC to Twitter a couple days ago. Twitter looked pretty useless when it launched... but the network effect combined with the creativity of its users made it very cool after all... I think CC could go the same way, but it will take a little time to get there."

If your gut feeling turns out to be true, it would imply that a wait-and-see stance could be very prudent for those who are perfectly happy with what they have right now.

In other words, there is no compelling reason to hop on the CC bandwagon for a great many people.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Walter Soyka
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 5:36:56 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "If your gut feeling turns out to be true, it would imply that a wait-and-see stance could be very prudent for those who are perfectly happy with what they have right now. In other words, there is no compelling reason to hop on the CC bandwagon."

Well, I do think Ae CC and Pr CC are pretty compelling from a feature standpoint.

That said, if someone doesn't think CC is right for them, I'm certainly not going to push it on them. We all have to make our own choices. What's right for me may not be right for you, and vice versa.

I'm sticking with CC as long as Adobe provides good tools and good value. I think CC is totally worthwhile today, and like Creative Suite, I hope it will get better with future releases.

I use other tools, too, so if I ultimately have to drop Adobe, I will -- but I don't see any reason for me to start transitioning away now.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 11:05:16 pm

Dave -

It's nice to be able to agree with you on this one. I'm happily sitting on my nest egg CS6 Master Collection disks, and watching the fur and dust fly around me. Although I think the CC may turn out to be a winner, at this point it's a nag that hasn't shown a winning streak, so I'm waiting and watching...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 6:06:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I compared CC to Twitter a couple days ago. Twitter looked pretty useless when it launched (sorry, mate, but I don't care what you had for lunch), but the network effect combined with the creativity of its users made it very cool after all -- and that's not the sort of thing you can put in a box.

I think CC could go the same way, but it will take a little time to get there."


As someone who never uses Twitter but who has seen how it can be of use to others, I will freely admit I didn't see any use for it at all when it first came out. That being said i still don't have the foggiest idea of what additional value Adobe envisions CC having.

I understand it as a more profitable distribution system for Adobe, I understand it for anyone who uses a large number of their applications as a cost effective way to get access, I can see how it might tie into Anywhere for those who need tightly integrated long distance collaboration - but I don't see the "creative revolution" that they proclaim and that you allude to.

What do you envision happening that I'm too muddle headed to see?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on Jun 1, 2013 at 6:32:53 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As someone who never uses Twitter but who has seen how it can be of use to others, I will freely admit I didn't see any use for it at all when it first came out. That being said i still don't have the foggiest idea of what additional value Adobe envisions CC having... What do you envision happening that I'm too muddle headed to see?"

I think that CC is the better platform versus CS for solving some of the problems I face everyday, because a lot of the hard parts of my job are around the creative work, much more than actually completing the creative work itself.

I look at syncing preferences as a baby step, a proof of concept. What it shows is a tiny little nugget of extending the tools beyond a single desktop. Some things may be solitary activities that would not benefit from the cloud, but anything that requires working with a group (or even working with yourself across multiple systems or devices) gets better with a client/server architecture like what CC can provide.

I'm interested in review tools that integrate with my apps. Adobe flirted with this with PDF clip notes, but a cloud-based solution is better for coordinating multiple participants.

I'm interested in workflow tools like Shotgun. Having an app like that in the Adobe toolset would be fantastic. Version Cue was maybe ahead of its time; a solution like that would work better on the cloud than it ever did on the desktop.

I'm interested in sharing not just assets, but looks, effects, and styles among a team of artists. I'm interested in anything that will help keep a team like this aware of what each other are doing visually.

I'm interested in extending that system so that when one underlying asset changes (maybe a logo tweak), everyone collaborating on it is notified.

I'm interested in extending it beyond existing team, and building systems that allow strangers to connect and collaborate, just as we have all done here on the COW.

These are made up, off-the-cuff ideas (though I should write up a few feature requests).

Going with the Twitter analogy I made earlier, I don't know what the best parts will be yet. What I do know is that awesome stuff happens when people connect. I am a big believer in the network effect, and I think CC can exploit that in a way that no traditional desktop software can.

This is the part I'm excited about. It might require a bit of a leap of faith, but I think this is a smart approach for the next generation of creative tools.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 8:38:56 am

[Walter Soyka] "I'm interested in sharing not just assets, but looks, effects, and styles among a team of artists. I'm interested in anything that will help keep a team like this aware of what each other are doing visually. "

Something similar is what Sapphire currently offers.


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Herb Sevush
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on Jun 2, 2013 at 6:42:59 pm

OK Walter, I see where you are going with this. A few specific responses and then an overall observation.

[Walter Soyka] "I'm interested in review tools that integrate with my apps. Adobe flirted with this with PDF clip notes"

Loved this when it was first announced, but it seems to have disappeared. Then started using the Apple iChat with FCP7 legacy. Unfortunately it failed more often than it worked, and then stopped working altogether when I moved from DVCPRO HD to ProRes 422. Lack of bandwidth. I've also tried using Skype. Now I'm back to using long emails. This gets back to my complaint that it's assets I need to be able to share remotely, and I'm still waiting for someone to address that adequately. Since I constantly collaborate with editors in remote locations, this is very high on my wish list.

[Walter Soyka] "I'm interested in sharing not just assets, but looks, effects, and styles among a team of artists. I'm interested in anything that will help keep a team like this aware of what each other are doing visually. "

As I said before, for me the hardest part of this is sharing assets. I've been able to share AE, Motion, and even plug-in settings using e-mail for years, but without common access to video assets it doesn't really help in my work.

Overview:

I understand the desire for better remote collaboration over the internet. I understand the desire for better workflow tools like Shotgun. What I don't understand is what giving up perpetual licenses has to do with any of this.

For my business the thing that's holding most of this up is lack of bandwidth to share assets. Various tools from various companies are trying to help with all the rest. I don't see putting all my eggs in one monolithic internet collective, Adobe's CC in this case, as the best way to accomplish it.

Right now we've got Avid Everywhere and Adobe Anywhere (soon to be followed by Apple Wash n Wear) - I believe this trend will continue and will be very helpful for a lot of people - but I don't see how it is connected to subscription only distribution.

This is like the old X argument that since they needed to upgrade FCP to 64 bit the magnetic timeline was somehow necessary. While they are connected, one is not necessitated by the other.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on Jun 3, 2013 at 7:57:46 am

[Herb Sevush] "I understand the desire for better remote collaboration over the internet. I understand the desire for better workflow tools like Shotgun. What I don't understand is what giving up perpetual licenses has to do with any of this... This is like the old X argument that since they needed to upgrade FCP to 64 bit the magnetic timeline was somehow necessary. While they are connected, one is not necessitated by the other."

CC will not just be a set of products like CS was -- it will be products plus services.

I see it as a different kind of offering, with some different advantages than what we're used to, but with a different kind of billing, too.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on Jun 3, 2013 at 1:29:02 pm

Herb makes a great point.Enhanced features dont necessitate the demise of perpetual licensing. Although it seems to be used as a rational for it.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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Herb Sevush
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on Jun 3, 2013 at 1:59:36 pm

[Walter Soyka] "CC will not just be a set of products like CS was -- it will be products plus services."

I subscribe to many internet services - from the NY Times, to Backblaze to Yousendit. If the CC can provide an ongoing service worth paying for then the rational for subscribing becomes easier to sell. on the other hand I'd have to see it before I will either believe it or pay for it.

At the moment since Adobe can't seem to design a decent multicam feature it is all moot for me. The only thing that can save me from the clutches of Avid is a prayer for Lightworks. It doesn't encourage me about Adobe's capabilities that with positive examples of what actually works in multicam all around them - FCP7, Avid, FCPX - they can't seem to figure out how to make something that doesn't have me longing for software EOL'd 10 years ago (*edit).

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on Jun 3, 2013 at 2:20:56 pm

[Herb Sevush] " If the CC can provide an ongoing service worth paying for then the rational for subscribing becomes easier to sell. on the other hand I'd have to see it before I will either believe it or pay for it. "

Yes. I think Adobe has a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem here.


[Herb Sevush] "At the moment since Adobe can't seem to design a decent multicam feature it is all moot for me. The only thing that can save me from the clutches of Avid is a prayer for Lightworks. It doesn't encourage me about Adobe's capabilities that with positive examples of what actually works in multicam all around them - FCP7, Avid, FCPX - they can't seem to figure out how to make something that doesn't have me longing for software EOL'd 10 years ago (*edit)."

I really wish I had seen *edit in action. Seems like everyone who used it still misses it. It must have been incredible to have garnered a legend greater than FCP's.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on Jun 3, 2013 at 3:19:52 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I really wish I had seen *edit in action. Seems like everyone who used it still misses it. It must have been incredible to have garnered a legend greater than FCP's."

There's always a bit of "you should have seen it in the old days" mostalgia about it, there was plenty of grumbling and complaining from the user base even before Autodesk destroyed it and it would seem primative in many ways to modern NLE's, but I believe the reason it garnedered such loyalty is that it was one of the few software experiences I ever had where I felt the designers had actually understood the users needs when they created it. It felt editor driven, not market driven. The fact that it was such a small design team and that the very active user base had direct contact with them accelerated the cycle of responsiveness to the user's needs.

Oh, well, not gonna happen within a large corporate structure. The inability to maintain small innovative companies is an often overlooked failing of free market capatalism which only supports companies that grow at cancerous rates - a profitable company with limited growth potential is not going to last very long unless it's privately held.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 3:24:43 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Adobe is marketing the Cloud as a solution to a problem that nobody ever realized they had.
"


Brilliant!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Walter Soyka
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 4:19:19 am

[Herb Sevush] "As for faster updates - FCPX has gotten a new update every 2 months for 2 years (they've needed it, but that's a different topic)without being a Cloud based subscription service. "

I think it's SOX and its requirements about recognizing revenue for new features. It's not just Adobe saying this -- Autodesk is very careful about compliance (Smoke 2013 was in no-charge pre-release until it became feature complete), and Avid might be in a heap of trouble for being maybe not so careful. Even Apple has charged for feature updates on iPhones and laptops.

Apple can afford free feature releases that require them to defer FCPX revenue indefinitely, because FCPX is not critical to their success.

Adobe could not afford to defer Creative Suite revenue indefinitely in order to make free feature releases, because the CS revenue was absolutely critical to their survival.

Random feature releases would have taken Creative Suite out of sync. I guess un-bundling the suite would have been possible, but it would have set back a decade of integration efforts, and charging for updates to Ps, Pr, Il, Ae, Au and Sg, all on separate schedules, would have certainly been a marketing disaster.

I blame Enron.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Shawn Miller
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 7:11:54 am

[Walter Soyka] "I blame Enron."

lol - right!

Shawn



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Greg Andonian
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:12:33 pm

I read not too long ago that Adobe is looking into allowing people to pre-pay for Creative Cloud for larger blocks of time than 1 year, which I liked.

If I could pay for three years up front, and they also did that rent-to-own buyout thing that's been kicked around here, I would start to like Adobe again.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Chris Borjis
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 6:42:25 pm

[Greg Andonian] "did that rent-to-own buyout thing that's been kicked around here, I would start to like Adobe again."

If they offered the rent-to-own for a perpetual license after 1 year of use/subscription
I would have no complaints.



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Tom Daigon
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 8:03:57 pm

[Chris Borjis] "If they offered the rent-to-own for a perpetual license after 1 year of use/subscription
I would have no complaints."


+1.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 9:23:16 pm

[Chris Borjis] "If they offered the rent-to-own for a perpetual license after 1 year of use/subscription"

Five years is the only realistic number (WWJD) - think about it - you're asking to own the master suite after forking over six hundred dollars.

It doesn't matter even if you are offering to pay the balance - that's not a goer - adobe have to feel that their subscription model is broadly intact - I am incredibly unlikely to end subscription after five years of built up assets across AE PS and PPro. What it gives me is some shred of perceived control.
It makes those five years less of a freakout.
The exact same goes for the five years following that.

bottom line - that software is worth five years subscription for a loyalty archive. the sum total of that suite is easily worth $3000 dollars.
The archive at the end of the half decade is the carrot.

that is a carrot I am incredibly keen to eat. A very large number of people would very likely eat those carrots, one after the other,
if only someone actually thought to offer any carrots.

When you think about it - those carrots are incredibly cheap to offer, almost risk free, they smell incredible, and there are millions, and millions of bunny rabbits out there.

If adobe like to make money, that is quite a way to make a metric tonne of money.

Also, there has to be some actuarial model on the likely percentage of five year dropouts right?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Greg Andonian
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 10:29:58 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] Five years is the only realistic number (WWJD) - think about it - you're asking to own the master suite after forking over six hundred dollars.

That does make sense. The ability to pay for larger blocks of time would really help here. Pay once and not have to worry about anything for three years. Then renew the subscription once for two more and that takes you right up to the buyout.

Or, what would be even better, is if you could pre-pay for the amount of time needed to get to the buyout. That would give us a perpetual option right there. If you have to wait until the end to do the archive that's fine- I'd rather do that anyway, since there will be newer versions of the software available then.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 11:10:04 pm

The ability to pay for larger blocks of time would really help here. Pay once and not have to worry about anything for three years. Then renew the subscription once for two more and that takes you right up to the buyout.

yes - either way adobe are in a completely different place than they were. they have massive cashflow solidity, good will, the ability to plan outside of arbitrary schedules - if none of this, as a reasonable middle ground, makes any sense to adobe then, to some degree, what is going on here?

seriously - we've just more or less given up all ownership, we're paying them every month - or better yet in longer leaps -

all we're asking for is one pitstop in a decade? how in the hell is that not reasonable?

Wait everyone - Let's all gather round and get ready for an enjoyable discussion about all this with Todd K, Dennis R, Al M, Paul, Peter and John.

or as they are also known - some guys who can't discuss a dime.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Dave LaRonde
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 7:50:12 pm

My Mom always told me, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

So..........................................

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 7:59:54 pm

Greg " If I could pay for three years up front, and they also did that rent-to-own buyout thing that's been kicked around here, I would start to like Adobe again."


That would work for me as well.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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Jim Wiseman
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 8:08:12 pm

Three years beats five, which for me really would be pushing it in the trust department. And I wouldn't need every program they sell. Just Production Premium. Three years up front with an out to a Perpetual. Reasonably priced.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Herb Sevush
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 7:42:09 pm

[Steve Connor] "who here, apart from Walter, thinks that what Adobe are doing is a good or even an acceptable idea?"

The Adobe CEO, on behalf of his stockholders, and he's the only one that matters.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 30, 2013 at 10:17:56 pm

[Steve Connor] "By now we know who doesn't like the idea, but who here, apart from Walter, thinks that what Adobe are doing is a good or even an acceptable idea?"

The good part of it remains to be seen. We only have evidence of what Adobe is telling us. Only time will tell if the development process is improved allowing to get better updates, perhaps more frequently, or perhaps only better updates.

As I work in a deadline driven business, I understand the process of what it takes to get things packaged and out of the door for delivery, as I am sure a lot of us do. From a developers standpoint, it must feel good to know that I don't have to get a hit list of 27 arbitrary things ready for an arbitrary trade show deadline. I can take more (or less) time developing one certain aspect of the ongoing application, get it right, and release it when it's truly ready.

While I have no doubt that the stabilization of revenue is good for Adobe (and perhaps less good for users who don't upgrade all the time), I also have to believe that this will be a good thing for the people that work on the products themselves. If better products come out of this new payment model, I am OK with that.

As far as acceptable, yes, I think software as a service is acceptable. I do not feel hamstrung, I do not feel like I will be relinquishing control, I do not feel hurt, I do not feel like a hostage. If I decide to not use Adobe products, and I have to access a project file years in to the future, I will have to pay a little something to do so. In the time that I am not using the software, I am not paying for it. I already pay for a few software services, so maybe I am used to the idea of this as a service. I'm still here, still making a living, and still have access to everything I need. Adobe will have to prove their worth, here, for people that don't feel the same way. This is coming from a guy who has years of an archive of dead software. At least Adobe software is still very much alive.

Like it or not, Adobe is a giant global company and they have to operate in those conditions. Apparently, the Cloud is where they see they need to go.

I gave an example earlier of the people that don't pay for their own software but get hired to use it. The perpetual licensing model means that they have to wait for purchase cycles in their respective companies/institutions. The Cloud model allows them access to the latest software with features that they want and will put to use immediately. Since these folks will now have access to the latest versions, they will update, perhaps making them more productive, or allowing them to further their craft. This is a creative business after all, at least I like to think it still has some creativity left in it yet, and if the CC can help people in this regard, I am also OK with that.

If you are the master of your own domain, perhaps the Cloud does not make any sense to you. Luckily, there are more choices and options than ever before.

The education pricing is a bit concerning. It seems to have been several mixed messages there. I do hope that Adobe clears up the cloudiness in due time.


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Greg Jones
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 12:21:26 am

I think the concept is a really good idea.I think the execution of rolling it out was handled poorly. I love Adobe software and have no issue paying $50-$60 or even $70 dollars a month considering I can pay that off in less than an hour of my time editing. I like the idea of having access to all the software and with the next version being able to sync my settings on different computers. I am one of those who update software frequently so it's a pretty good deal to me. Things I don't like about the cloud are : having to be connected once a month and adobe being to pull the plug at any time (Even though I can't see them doing that). Adobe is a good company that really listens to its customers about software. I think they made a mistake dropping perpetual licenses cold turkey, but I can see most software company's switching to this model in the future.

Greg Jones
D7,Inc.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 12:34:43 am

@Greg Jones: Well maybe you can pick up my $50/month for the rest of my life if you're doing so well, Greg.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 12:41:07 am

Saaay - weren't you the guy begging for spare change on Tremont Street back in the Sixties? I thought I remembered you...:>)

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Greg Jones
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 1:33:40 am

I didn't mean to come off as arrogant. I guess what I was trying to say is that $50 is such a small percentage of money spent for the return we get in our business, that it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. It actually seems like a good value for the return in investment. I spend more than that on Internet. I remember when After Effects alone was $1999 and we would update every revision. I can see how the photography community is up in arms because they probably only use 1 or two programs in the suite so it's not really a good value for them. I'm not saying I agree with how Adobe is going about this whole thing, but for me and my business it works. It may not work for everyone, as apparent by this thread and others.



Greg Jones
D7,Inc.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 2:23:19 am

@ Greg: Understood. It didn't make much difference to me when I was pulling in high six figures selling Avids in the '90's either. It does now and will even more so in the future when it is retirement money savings and Social Security. When I have time to work on projects I've been putting off for 5 to 25 years. All of us will be in that boat at some time in the future. Just think about paying every month forever then. Who knows how much per month. There really needs to be a perpetual or buyout option to solve this. Then at the other end of life there is the education of students. That seems pretty glossed at the moment as well. This really seems to be a big narrowing of the base of users to me. Sort of like Avid in the '90's!

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Greg Jones
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 11:27:49 am

Some sort of buyout would be a good idea.

Greg Jones
D7


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Tom Daigon
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 1:38:21 pm

[Greg Jones] "Some sort of buyout would be a good idea."

It would be a great idea!

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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Cameron Clendaniel
Re: So who thinks CC only is a GOOD idea?
on May 31, 2013 at 1:29:21 pm

I agree with Greg. In my opinion given the power and breadth of the software included in the package, $50/month is reasonable. I also personally find the subscription model more convenient both economically and logistically. Clearly there needs to be the capability to access past work without a subscription. I also find the current CC file sharing options too limited and slow to be of much use. Neither of these shortcomings are deal breakers for me, but I do expect these issues to be resolved.

Cameron Clendaniel
Film Editor, NYC
718-254-8027
cam@camclendaniel.com
http://www.camclendaniel.com



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