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Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night

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walter biscardi
Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 2:20:13 pm

Last night we had Al Mooney and Dennis Radeke, along with special guest Patrick Inhofer present the latest from Adobe Premiere Pro, SpeedGrade, Prelude and After Effects. This included a very frank discussion of the Creative Cloud from Al.

One of the most interesting points for me is how the perpetual licensing model actually hamstrings update releases. With that model, they MUST only release updated features at set times during the year. They cannot simply release features at any time they're ready as they are now able to do with the Creative Cloud. The Cloud release model was born of the changing creative environment requiring near constant updates to stay up with the near constant "new stuff" that seems to come out on a daily basis in our industry. I'd never heard that side before and it was very interesting.

Creative Cloud essentially comes in three flavors. Membership for the single user. Teams for up to 15 users. Enterprise for beyond that. Each Creative Cloud Membership is good for two machines simultaneously.

Of the 150+ folks who came to the meeting, the majority are already running Adobe products and almost all of them are already on the Cloud. There was very little discussion about the Cloud itself during the Q&A and much more about the actual products themselves. And I have to say the new "hair brush tool" or refine edge in After Effects is just stupid good.

I can say that after seeing the presentation there is little doubt in my mind that Adobe will stay the course with Creative Cloud moving forward. I'm really looking forward to June 17 so we can get our hands on everything that will be available.

We will have the video from last night's meeting up as soon as possible and I'll post a link in this thread when it goes live.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Biscardi Creative Media

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Dave LaRonde
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 2:57:29 pm

[walter biscardi] "...Al Mooney and Dennis Radeke, along with special guest Patrick Inhofer... ...Of the 150+ folks who came to the meeting, the majority are already running Adobe products and almost all of them are already on the Cloud."

Thus, the Adobe folks were preaching to the choir. Why am I not surprised by that?

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Erik Mickelson
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 3:11:45 pm

Hi Walter great post.
Could you please explain about the CC updates? When I purchased CS5 (or whatever it was) that had Application Manager, that was touted as keeping my software up to date with new releases automatically over the internet. Application Manager is still in CS6 and whenever an update is available my software prompts me to update or not, my choice.

Regarding updates, what does Adobe CC do that CS6 does not. My current software updates when Adobe releases an update. Now Adobe says that because of CC they can release updates sooner. What can possibly be sooner than when they decide release an update?

Is it quantum physics we are talking about? String cheese theory?

CrippleBook Pro 2.3Ghz i7, 16GB ram, Lion 10.7.4, FCPStudio 3, Adobe CS6. QT 7


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:10:42 pm

What Adobe means is that it can release major feature updates - of the type that would typically come out once a year - at any time of the year as soon as the feature is stable and ready for integration into the program. It had something to do with SEC requirements and the difference between selling the software as a product versus as a service.

The main benefit for that should likely be the ability to support changes in media requirements/delivery at a faster pace, and (hopefully) a faster delivery of new editing features that will make post quicker and easier (while I like Premiere, there's certainly room for growth and improvement). The web products and the web designers & developers who use them will probably be the biggest beneficiaries from such a system, as their standards change on a far more constant basis, what with browsers like Firefox and Chrome flying through ten major version numbers a year.


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James Culbertson
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 3:11:14 pm

[walter biscardi] "
One of the most interesting points for me is how the perpetual licensing model actually hamstrings update releases. With that model, they MUST only release updated features at set times during the year. They cannot simply release features at any time they're ready as they are now able to do with the Creative Cloud. The Cloud release model was born of the changing creative environment requiring near constant updates to stay up with the near constant "new stuff" that seems to come out on a daily basis in our industry. I'd never heard that side before and it was very interesting."


I don't need constant new stuff from a software maker. I need to be making constant new stuff for my clients using a stable hardware/software platform. Anyone who is constantly updating their software is nuts as far as I can concerned. Once a year is enough. I'll let CC customers be the beta testers and I'll take my perpetual license please.


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 3:12:46 pm

+1 James.

Tom Daigon
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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 3:28:21 pm

James -

From what I understand, as a CC Subscription customer, you have the option to upgrade on the spot, or put off the upgrade, say, if you're in the middle of a project. When, and if, I purchase a CC subscription, I will be just as careful as I am with my current "ownership" of the CS6 discs. I'll upgrade as needed, when needed, and never when I'm in the throes of a project.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:17:17 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "I'll upgrade as needed, when needed, and never when I'm in the throes of a project."

I always upgrade my software, it's something I look forward to like a kid at Christmas time. But in my case this happens once a year. I work on season long projects that take 8-9 months to complete. In the downtime I upgrade all software and hardware as needed. So in my case the previous once a year upgrades have been perfect and the Cloud offers me absolutely nothing of value.

I also don't get the "low monthly cost" - doesn't anyone here have a credit card? Purchase your $350 dollar yearly upgrade and pay it off over the course of a year - $29 month for a perpetual license plus pennies in interest. There is no value for a Production Studio user unless he wants access to all the other software - then the value is there. But I have no interest in Adobe's other applications, I'm strictly a video editor, and for me there isn't a single positive aspect to the Cloud, only many potential negatives.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:26:12 pm

[Herb Sevush] " I'm strictly a video editor, and for me there isn't a single positive aspect to the Cloud, only many potential negatives."

My feelings exactly, Herb.

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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:33:55 pm

[Herb Sevush] ", I'm strictly a video editor, and for me there isn't a single positive aspect to the Cloud, only many potential negatives."

I would sincerely suggest you begin looking at alternatives to the Adobe platform then. I am 99% certain the perpetual licensing is gone based on last night. The longer you keep waiting for change, the further behind you'll get on technology and the more upset you're going to get.

It's the same when I finally realized Apple was not going to change course with X. So either I followed Apple down their chosen path or made the change. I chose to leave Apple's concept and moved first to Avid and when that didn't work as promised I moved over to Adobe and we're sticking with Adobe moving forward.

So you're at that point right now Herb. You need to move forward with whatever your editing tool of choice will be because complaining on this forum, waiting for Adobe to change course, is simply not going to be constructive. Adobe has made their decision and it's Creative Cloud Membership moving forward. It's time for everyone else to make their decision on their toolset moving forward.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
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Biscardi Creative Media

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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:50:34 pm

Hang in their Herb. No need to bend over and give in as others have done. Nothing is set in stone. By fighting the good fight and taking a stand, some good might actually come of it. After all Adobe is just a business subject to the desires of their customers. We've seen corporate about faces before.

I will continue using CS6 which last time I checked is still state of the art (CC Next is not released as of yet). And I will continue to encourage all who are unhappy with Adobes policy to express it in as many ways as possible.

If they are still listening they would be wise to accommodate the reasonable requests made of them by loyal users.

Tom Daigon
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Herb Sevush
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:36:00 pm

[walter biscardi] "I would sincerely suggest you begin looking at alternatives to the Adobe platform then. I am 99% certain the perpetual licensing is gone based on last night. "

Walter I can be unhappy with the Cloud and still end up using it as "the least bad option." Right now I'm on FCP7 but planning to make a change by next spring. While I think the Cloud rollout was a major example of corporate PR stupidity, especially given the lessons to be learned so recently from the FCPX fiasco, if PPro has the best tools for me when I make the transition I would still probably sign on.

While there is no benefit to me from the Cloud the negatives are mostly potential, the cost seems reasonable, and in the end the quality of the toolset will determine my choice. That doesn't mean I don't think the Cloud is a bad decision for many editors, but the evaluation comes down to "how bad."

I am also not convinced that Adobe won't modify the Cloud in some significant ways. I agree that perpetual license is a dead issue, but some sort of "perpetual access" may not be. For instance I have read Adobe claims that they will have some sort of "Save to Version 6" backwards compatibility in future releases, and since I own a perpetual for Version 6, that, along with establishing the practice of always exporting an XML version of all projects would ameliorate some of my biggest concerns.

Which is why I keep complaining and happy that others are as well - the squeaky wheel and all that.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:40:33 pm

Herb, Adobe makes decisions based on sales. I would speculate that as soon as you start paying for the cloud, you cease being a squeaky wheel from their perspective.

Tom Daigon
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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:59:59 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Herb, Adobe makes decisions based on sales. I would speculate that as soon as you start paying for the cloud, you cease being a squeaky wheel from their perspective."

They certainly do make decisions based on sales and when the Memberships for Creative Cloud far exceeded their projections that was a contributing factor in moving to the Subscription only model.

Obviously it's your right to continue the fight and be a vocal critic of the model, but as I said, I only see a 1% chance that some sort of "perpetual license" model would come back into play and in that case, probably only for the enterprise type of solutions.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:08:38 pm

We shall see, Walter.

Tom Daigon
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Jim Wiseman
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:48:35 pm

Herb, I appreciate your points, but the fact that a Save to CS6 might be available "sometime" doesn't ameliorate the fact that in a few years as computers move on and OS versions change, CS6 is going to be left behind without nursing older computers, OSes and drivers. Without perpetual there will be no support for CS6 in the larger world. Your work will effectively die to re-editing, perhaps even reliable playback.

As of now, If Adobe plunges ahead with this, I will be left with the latter option. I'm running 15 year old software on a couple of systems. But I'm not going to stop fighting for some sort of Perpetual License. This will probably take a new CEO at Adobe. If this falls flat on it's face, there will be. None too soon.

Jim Wiseman
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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:08:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "While I think the Cloud rollout was a major example of corporate PR stupidity, especially given the lessons to be learned so recently from the FCPX fiasco, if PPro has the best tools for me when I make the transition I would still probably sign on. "

1000% agree with the stupidity of the roll-out as I alluded to in my recent blog post. It was a dick move by the decision makers whomever they are. Should have made the definitive announcement last year that CS6 would be the last perpetual license. That would have eased a lot of the uproar over the sudden change. But it does appear that the ship is now pointed in the Cloud direction and will continue that way moving forward.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Juan Salvo
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 7:01:18 pm

There is in fact a save to CS6 function in AE CC.

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Herb Sevush
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 7:38:39 pm

[Juan Salvo] "There is in fact a save to CS6 function in AE CC."

The question is for how long will this be true? I'd take an assurance of 5 years, ymmv.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:00:39 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The question is for how long will this be true? I'd take an assurance of 5 years, ymmv."

At last night's Atlanta Cutters Meeting Al Mooney specifically said that all versions of Premiere Pro from CS6 forward will be available on the Cloud.

As for how long a "Save to CS6" feature would be in Premiere Pro, not sure why they would need to keep including that after a few years time quite honestly. Heck with Final Cut Pro you could never do that.

Of course nothing to prevent you from exporting an XML or EDL to open in a previous version.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:07:38 pm

And how does that address if the AE/ Maxon Cineware function is used? Which is a big draw in using CC AE. That is not backward compatible, so for many SAVE AS CS6 is useless as a way of archiving for revisions in CS6.

Once again it requires eternal renting.

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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 1:34:47 am

Since that feature does not yet exist in an official way, it's not really much of an issue at this point. No one's used it, other than beta testers and Adobe employees, so who's to say what will be done about it? It may well be that there will be a feature to save the 3D portion of the file off as a C4D file, in which case you could work with it in the full version of C4D. The issue is kind of similar to the way Element 3D works - yes, it will import .obj and C4D files, but if you want to do any modeling, or change texture mapping coordinates, you need a real 3D package.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 3:53:43 am

[Joseph W. Bourke] "It may well be that there will be a feature to save the 3D portion of the file off as a C4D file, in which case you could work with it in the full version of C4D. The issue is kind of similar to the way Element 3D works - yes, it will import .obj and C4D files, but if you want to do any modeling, or change texture mapping coordinates, you need a real 3D package."

The new Ae/C4D workflow creates a separate .C4D file. It does not bury the 3D stuff in the .AEP.

To go backwards to a pre-CINEWARE release, you'd render that C4D project file with the traditional multi-pass, .AEC Ae/C4D integration features.

CINEWARE (the C4D renderer in Ae) is kind of like dynamic link for C4D and Ae. It essentially links to a project file and eliminates the need for intermediate renders. It's more interactive than the traditional workflow, but it still keeps separate projects and it is still fundamentally layer- and object buffer-based.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 7:45:03 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The new Ae/C4D workflow creates a separate .C4D file. It does not bury the 3D stuff in the .AEP.
"


Dennis showed that workflow at the Cutters on Wednesday. VERY powerful and I didn't realize how seamless the integration is between the two apps. He said it's a sign of things to come as Adobe works to make the integration with third party apps as seamless as they possibly can. I really like where this model is going.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
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"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Chris Pettit
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 4:34:13 am

Sorry, no. I had a blog exchange with an Adobe rep, he implied there will be no backwards compatibility with Cineware in CC to CS6.

Besides the real value is real time C4D to AE compositing capabilities (inside AE), amongst other things eliminating the need for multi-pass complexity of the AEC process.

Exporting to C4D is what I can do now


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 1:32:33 pm

[Chris Pettit] "Besides the real value is real time C4D to AE compositing capabilities (inside AE), amongst other things eliminating the need for multi-pass complexity of the AEC process."

I agree.Just creating a C4D file without whatever has been done in AE to it is useless.

Tom Daigon
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James Culbertson
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:49:05 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "From what I understand, as a CC Subscription customer, you have the option to upgrade on the spot, or put off the upgrade, say, if you're in the middle of a project. When, and if, I purchase a CC subscription, I will be just as careful as I am with my current "ownership" of the CS6 discs. I'll upgrade as needed, when needed, and never when I'm in the throes of a project."

Joe, I understand that one is not forced to upgrade at any particular time with CC. But Walter was trying to make the point (if I understood correctly) that having access to constant updates is a major benefit to pros, and a major selling point for CC. But I would suggest that working pros don't need constant updates, at least if you spend most of your time actually working for clients.

This all brings us back to the reality that Photoshop, Illustrator, and After Effects (and perhaps Premiere) are full featured enough now to accommodate almost all of what we need to do on a daily basis. So CC is really about guaranteeing a revenue stream when really most working pros probably won't need to upgrade very often unless they are addicted to the latest feature candy.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:17:44 pm

James -

I'm with you on just about everything you say - as a Photoshop and Illustrator user, my needs have been completely fulfilled as of probably 6 or 7 major revisions ago (well before the CS began), and I'd have to say that Premiere Pro, as of a couple of revs ago, gave me more than I needed. So as a CS6 owner (Master Collection - discs), I've got just about everything I will ever need (I also do some simple DVD authoring, some Flash animation, and some Web work). What concerns me (and in the interest of disclosure, I DID sign the petition) is that if I were to be forced to subscribe, which at some point I will, I'll lose the ability to decide for myself whether to continue running CS6 on outdated software and hardware (this is down the road I'm talking about), or be forced to move to the subscription plan, which appears to be forever - and I don't like that one bit. I'm all for choice, and, with Combustion a goner, the only real competition (on the PC) is also a goner.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 4:05:36 am

[James Culbertson] "I don't need constant new stuff from a software maker. I need to be making constant new stuff for my clients using a stable hardware/software platform. Anyone who is constantly updating their software is nuts as far as I can concerned. Once a year is enough. I'll let CC customers be the beta testers and I'll take my perpetual license please."

James, aren't you using FCPX?

FCPX has had 8 dot releases in 2 years, most of which were feature-bearing, some of which offered really huge, workflow-changing features.

Would you really prefer to have had one yearly update released so far, with the next maybe a couple weeks away?

Updating once a year was fine a decade ago, but the pace of change is accelerating. I'd like my tools to keep up.

I also think it's a mistake to assume that more frequent releases means less-tested software. I don't think this is about rushing new features out the door without a proper beta program -- it's about being free to release a feature when it's ready instead of holding it back to conform to an arbitrary release schedules that have everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with development.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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James Culbertson
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 4:31:32 am

[Walter Soyka] "James, aren't you using FCPX?

FCPX has had 8 dot releases in 2 years, most of which were feature-bearing, some of which offered really huge, workflow-changing features."


Sure. I've been testing FCPX for awhile on small projects and waiting for features to play catch up. I've started using it on most new projects starting this year (10.0.7). I did upgrade to 10.08 to fix the green frame bug (but waited a month or so to see if there were any issues).

[Walter Soyka] "Updating once a year was fine a decade ago, but the pace of change is accelerating. I'd like my tools to keep up."

I used to be a beta-tester and upgrade junkie, so I understand your desire; I just don't think that level of obsession is necessary to be a good storyteller; in fact my feeling now is that it detracts and distracts... life is too short.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 4:39:43 am

[James Culbertson] "I used to be a beta-tester and upgrade junkie, so I understand your desire; I just don't think that level of obsession is necessary to be a good storyteller; in fact my feeling now is that it detracts and distracts... life is too short."

Very fair.

But I'll rejoin that I'm not interested in new features for their own sake; I'm interested in them for how they make my work life better. Life is too short, and I don't want to wait for a feature that would make what I do 8-10 hours a day a little better, easier or faster any longer than I have to.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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James Culbertson
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 5:06:57 am

[Walter Soyka] "Very fair.

But I'll rejoin that I'm not interested in new features for their own sake; I'm interested in them for how they make my work life better. Life is too short, and I don't want to wait for a feature that would make what I do 8-10 hours a day a little better, easier or faster any longer than I have to."


Well, I guess it is all relative. I did move to FCPX because of my perception that it made me a faster more efficient editor compared to older paradigms. So we all make such choices. But these days I'm all about making the space to savor things as they are. So many ways to fill up one's time. As Robert Bresson wrote, "Don't run after poetry. It penetrates unaided through the cracks."


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:32:09 pm

How much are they paying you for your praising, Walter?

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:45:11 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "How much are they paying you for your praising, Walter?"

I was waiting for the personal attacks. Thanks for making this thread complete.

for the record I own 5 perpetual licenses of CS6.

1 current Creative Cloud Personal Membership.

Will be adding three Creative Cloud Memberships for the office.

I receive zero financial compensation from Adobe, Apple, Avid, or Autodesk for the reviews and advice I give.

I receive zero financial compensation for organizing and running the Atlanta Cutters organization, all of us are volunteers while we put an average of 40 hours per month into each meeting.

But thank you very much for making the personal attack, that was very well deserved.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

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Morten Ranmar
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:52:59 pm

Just seems funny how much you attack FCPX, and praise PPro.

Being a FCP7 switcher myself, I can see pros and cons in both programs. Even though I also have ended up with PPro as our preferred tool - I think FCPX in may way is much more innovative...

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:33:37 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "Just seems funny how much you attack FCPX, and praise PPro."

While I don't agree with Walter's overly-rosy outlook on Creative Cloud, I do have to say that using the "You're a paid shill for Adobe" argument simply illustrates the poor judgement of a small mind.

BTW, how much is Apple paying you to come on here and try to deflect any kind words said about Adobe? We could go on and on in one big circle with this, and it adds nothing to the conversation.

It's not exactly inconceivable that someone would respond favorably to Creative Cloud. The idea that everyone must hate it and anyone who doesn't is a paid shill merely demonstrates an inability to think beyond a cliché,


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:05:11 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "Just seems funny how much you attack FCPX, and praise PPro. "

I haven't "attacked" Final Cut Pro X in at least a year to my knowledge and then to simply say it doesn't work for us. You do know that FCP X is installed in my shop as I type this, right? It doesn't work for me or our workflows right now but we have it here in case someone wants us to finish something started in X.

And when it comes to X I'm not happy with the workflow so I use Adobe, end of story. I also moved on from X and went on to a more suitable workflow for our needs. Apple has done a lot of neat things with X and quite honestly I see some of those neat things appearing in Avid, Adobe and Autodesk.

Were you ok with me praising Final Cut Pro for the 11 years that I used it because that's what I did on these and many other forums. Were you ok with me praising Avid for all their work they did getting MC6 up and running, and while it failed in our workflow, they are making awesome strides with MC7 and we do have two Avid Symphonies still installed here in our shop. Are you ok with me praising the work that Autodesk is doing with Smoke 2013?

It's just Premiere Pro and the Cloud I'm not allowed to talk about because I actually use and pay for these services?

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Tim Dowse
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:04:08 pm

[Walter Biscardi] I receive zero financial compensation for organizing and running the Atlanta Cutters organization, all of us are volunteers while we put an average of 40 hours per month into each meeting.

And it's highly appreciated by us Walter. Thanks for your work supporting our community.


[Walter Biscardi] I receive zero financial compensation from Adobe, Apple, Avid, or Autodesk for the reviews and advice I give.

Which is clear to anyone who reads your blog, articles, cow posts, etc etc etc. You share you opinions openly and honestly – both positive and negative – and I for one appreciate reading them.

A** kissing over, sorry for the mess.


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Richert Goyette
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:49:35 pm

Walter:

I tend to agree that this may not have been a representative sample. I also subscribed to CC and used it until this month. However, I went out and purchased CS6 Production Premium as a stop-gap and way to open old projects.

Interestingly, you didn't like the way Apple was going so you switched to Avid; didn't work out so you switched to Premiere. So you had alternatives and selected among them.

I am not sure that current Adobe customers have the same alternatives. I know about Pixelmator, but give me one for After Effects. Discussions on this forum indicate that some feel that Motion is a good alternative, but nothing can compare to AE. I did help fund HitFilm for the mac as a possible option, however. It should be out in November and I will see how it compares.

Apple didn't make you buy Motion, Compressor, Aperture, Key Note, Pages, or Numbers did they? No, their approach provided you alternative options. This is just wrong!

Rich



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Tim Dowse
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:59:32 pm

I was at the meeting too. Adobe may have been preaching to the choir, but the choir wasn't chosen by Adobe. Anyone in the ATL area was free to attend the meeting. I have to admit, I was expecting more of a flame-throwing session, and I think the folks from Adobe were expecting it too. But it never happened - maybe all folks who are disgusted with the release of CC stayed away, but it's too bad, because it was a public opportunity to ask questions, and attendance was free.

I was impressed with the new features. Particularly refine edge in AE... kind of mindblowing. The new features in Pr seem more to do with speeding up work and removing irritations, and why not... that's what we all want. I was most impressed by the improved audio options. Sg looks, including custom user-generated looks, available in a click in Pr is pretty darn cool too.

One thing that seemed clear to me was that Al Mooney is, as far as I can tell, a guy who is genuinely excited about improving Pr, and getting users more and more happy with it. He does not seem like a money-grabbing corporate greed machine. Maybe his bosses are, but he's the product manager, so I would have confidence in that platform at least for the foreseeable future, under his direction.

I still hope they address the file-access-after-subscription-cancellation issue in a meaningful way though, because for me that's the only genuine concern with the new model. If price is your biggest beef, shop elsewhere for your needs if you can get a better deal.


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Steve Connor
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:05:31 pm

[Tim Dowse] "I was at the meeting too. Adobe may have been preaching to the choir, but the choir wasn't chosen by Adobe. Anyone in the ATL area was free to attend the meeting. I have to admit, I was expecting more of a flame-throwing session, and I think the folks from Adobe were expecting it too. But it never happened - maybe all folks who are disgusted with the release of CC stayed away, but it's too bad, because it was a public opportunity to ask questions, and attendance was free."

Perhaps people realised that the nice Adobe people at the event probably had nothing to do with the changes?

[Tim Dowse] "I was impressed with the new features. Particularly refine edge in AE... kind of mindblowing. The new features in Pr seem more to do with speeding up work and removing irritations, and why not... that's what we all want. I was most impressed by the improved audio options. Sg looks, including custom user-generated looks, available in a click in Pr is pretty darn cool too.
"


and that's what getting lost in the heated discussions about the changes, the fact that there are some great feature updates on the way. Adobe should have released CC much earlier to deflect attention back to the software itself

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:28:47 pm

[Tim Dowse] "I was impressed with the new features. Particularly refine edge in AE... kind of mindblowing."

Hi Tim, See! I told you that was my favorite feature, even above the C4D integration. Glad that you had a good time and perspective on the meeting. Thanks for showing up.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:11:15 pm

[Tim Dowse] "I was at the meeting too. Adobe may have been preaching to the choir, but the choir wasn't chosen by Adobe. "

Very good point Tim and thanks for supporting your Atlanta Cutters!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 7:51:00 pm

[Tim Dowse] "I have to admit, I was expecting more of a flame-throwing session, and I think the folks from Adobe were expecting it too. But it never happened - "

Hi Tim,
This was the case at the SF Cutters meeting Al presented at, as well. A few questions/concerns but nothing crazy. I have heard that in all the user group meetings it has been the same as ATL Cutters. People seem to be much more interested in the new features over CC issues.

...and hey, don't torch me, I'm only reporting on the issue! ;-)

Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:38:51 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "..and hey, don't torch me, I'm only reporting on the issue! ;-)"

It's definitely an interesting time...I love what I hear about Premiere CC...just not thrilled about the subscription-only option.

Even though I've had a positive experience using it over the last year. I can sympathize with the concerns of others.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 11:48:09 pm

hey there, for a contrast? here - have a petition:

https://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-m...

Oh my god, kevin - I am so genuinely sorry - I forgot completely that you can only step in to say the right corporate thing at an opportune moment on a social forum.

look here -seriously - i'm taking that petition away - kevin, look at me: we don't need to discuss anything substantive around ownership, the loss thereof, the potential for a lease buyout -

because Kevin - and with the best will in the world - we all realise there is a snowballs chance in hell of that happening -

so buddy, feel safe - and keep picking those little moments to scrape in with corporate speak, listening, and adobe rent rainbows.

yer pal,

etc.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 2:54:58 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Oh my god, kevin - I am so genuinely sorry - I forgot completely that you can only step in to say the right corporate thing at an opportune moment on a social forum.

look here -seriously - i'm taking that petition away - kevin, look at me: we don't need to discuss anything substantive around ownership, the loss thereof, the potential for a lease buyout -

because Kevin - and with the best will in the world - we all realise there is a snowballs chance in hell of that happening -

so buddy, feel safe - and keep picking those little moments to scrape in with corporate speak, listening, and adobe rent rainbows.
"


FANTASTIC personal attack. You are REALLY moving this discussion forward. Congratulations. Nothing like insulting someone who has posted thousands of helpful information across many of these forums going all the way back to Apple Final Cut Pro. Yeah, he used to spout Apple rainbows like me.

Seriously people, personal attacks simply belittle your credibility and do nothing to move a discussion forward. But hey if it makes you feel better to throw mud on people, by all means, continue.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 2:19:11 pm

FANTASTIC ... BEARD. boom - you didn't see that coming did you. it's really looking quite superb in the photo there.

Right ok - KevIn said this - "I have heard that in all the user group meetings it has been the same as ATL Cutters. People seem to be much more interested in the new features over CC issues."

To some extent sure - maybe that's true, or maybe it presents a rosy view possibly. What he is proposing is "problem what problem?" pretty much the same as yourself. There is a problem - a lot of people have a problem with this. I know you like to say it is just "ten guys run amok" was your phrase I believe - but that is not so - so then I read this and I was - come on - right?

So I'm like - have you seen this Kevin? about the petition currently signed by twenty seven thousand people with emotional detailed critiques in the comments too -
but as I'm typing it, I'm like - hang on - what is the point of this. He can't engage in that -

and here's the really important bit Walter - he can't because Kevin is Adobe PR - he is a PR guy in this context - it is his job to manage public relations here. he's not your mate, he's not my mate - he's Adobe PR in this context.

I'm not talking to our mate Kevin - I'm talking with an adobe representative who will only engage a narrow number of topics - a whole range of stuff he will not touch with a barge pole.

It gets to the nub of the problem - I feel rather shafted by adobe, so do lots of others - But at the same time there is a whole meme that the company is made up of fundamentally decent dudes, like our friend kevin, and our friend dennis, and our friend Al. The way education and charities are being treated is not decent. do you think we're going to get into that with kevin? If you do - I have a bridge to sell you.

So I may have employed a bit of the old french ridicule to make the point that kevin is operating within very narrow PR parameters, maybe I laid it on a bit thick. I doubt somehow that it cut Kevin to the quick.

But as ever thanks for your elevated viewpoint Walter - looks to me to be delivered by someone at about the height of a guy sitting on a very tall horse.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 7:07:53 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " kevin is operating within very narrow PR parameters,"

This is a very astute and often missed observation , Andreas. Adobe folks, as representatives of the corporation are bound by certain limitations. There are things they are cleared to talk about and things that are not within their purview to discuss. They cannot undermine the corps stance on issues and must promote the company line. Otherwise they are in jeopardy of being reprimanded or fired.

To expect anything else but this kind of behavior seems naive to me.Seeing them in any other context then as Adobe reps whose goals are to sell and keep customers happy clouds up the issue. Not to deny them their humanity, just to be clear on where we as customers and they as Adobe reps stand.

As I have said before, I have the utmost respect and regard for all the folks Ive met at Adobe. But when it comes down to business, I know where they stand.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 7:43:21 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "But as ever thanks for your elevated viewpoint Walter - looks to me to be delivered by someone at about the height of a guy sitting on a very tall horse."

No point continuing the discussion. Personal attacks do nothing to forward your viewpoint.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on Jun 1, 2013 at 1:00:30 am

only taking the mickey there. not everything can be an attack, realistically.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 6:49:07 pm

I like a lot of your ideas Aindreas and have actually shared them with my superiors. You've got a supporter here, just so you know.

Again, I'm only reporting on what I saw with my own eyes, and what others have reported to me, nothing more.

Cheers,
Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Herb Sevush
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 7:45:02 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "I like a lot of your ideas Aindreas and have actually shared them with my superiors. You've got a supporter here, just so you know. "

Kevin, your killing us here. Giving Aindreas this kind of recognition will only feed the monster within. Down Aindreas, down ....

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on Jun 1, 2013 at 12:52:26 am

ara, I'd hope to think I lack a monster? - look, if kevin is effectively adobe - which in most respects he is in our particular regard - given he is the only version of it we can see or touch - how is it we end up feeling, in open argument, like we are punching a really nice teddy bear?

how does that work? he can't represent adobe substantively - he can say a ton of nice things, but that quite possibly means little? do you think he is going "hey, that made sense, let me ring up the board?"

this is more or less an open customer dispute with a corporation. mediating it with adobe representatives like Kevin makes almost no sense.

Is he supposed to be a friendly catholic priest with the ear of the cardinal?

Or,

is he currently directly employed, as a completely thankless task, to fight adobe fires?

I can only say this: I am not looking to provoke - but there has to be some kind of issue there - we can't all simply be ineffectual mates shrugging our shoulders at bad boys adobe.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 5:15:43 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "How much are they paying you for your praising, Walter?"

How much are they paying you to be a putz?

Let me know when you get to the point where you have contributed 1% as much as Walter to the Cow community and I'll retract this message, although it's quite clear you are somewhat lacking in both manners and rationality.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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walter biscardi
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:09:59 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Let me know when you get to the point where you have contributed 1% as much as Walter to the Cow community and I'll retract this message, although it's quite clear you are somewhat lacking in both manners and rationality.
"


That's very kind and much appreciated Herb.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 7:56:42 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "How much are they paying you for your praising, Walter?
"


to be fair morten - if walter is being paid by adobe, then I'm some kind of memory loss triple agent - who was paid by adobe to go bananas at apple on the X forum for 18 months, then spun on a dime and took the coin from infinite loop, and started railing against the injustices to widows and charities by the evil henchmen adobe over here.

David Lawrence is secretly trying to get edit droid back - Bill Davis over on X is actually a grass valley plant...

In truth the one person I know exactly where they stand? That would be Craig Seeman: because when Avid go under, I'm telling you - Seeman is cordoning off the area and starting a tequila block party. that man is waiting for those boys to go under. He is seriously waiting in the long grass there.

TL;DR - you will drive yourself insane ascribing motivations to people outside of their preference and personal outlook.
It's a waste of the precious karma juice.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:20:06 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Bill Davis over on X is actually a grass valley plant..."

I knew it!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:31:57 pm

God, he swore me to secrecy too.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 9:20:19 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "God, he swore me to secrecy too."

I bet he spray-painted "Windows 8 4 Eva!" on his car too, didn't he? Spill it!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 9:38:19 pm

Actually the man runs linux exclusively.

That said, Bill is, do you know, doing a webinar on FCPX keywording next week for moviola. I am, I swear, tuning in - because, let's face it - he surely does know the keywording X madness at this point.

As a pointless plug - the moviola webinars aren't half bad? - last week's on speedgrade really was actually dead handy.
Tune in live and like, the thing is free.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Brandon Cordy
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:40:03 pm

Looking forward to seeing the video. I was looking forward to going to the Adobe @ Atlanta Cutters meeting, but I've unfortunately been under the weather this week.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 4:57:34 pm

How does any of this endorsement change the fact that if we quit paying constantly until we die, we lose access to our life's work? And don't give us any BS about "exchange formats" that couldn't possibly contain everything needed. And no backwards compatibility. It is still indentured servitude and an unstoppable vacuum on our wallets. It may work for you Walter, and it may work for Adobe, but it certainly doesn't work for the thousands of people raising hell about it expressed everywhere available on the internet. Actually indentured servitude is not strong enough. In colonial times, you were free at the end of your term. We're paying Adobe for this. Monthly. Forever. We are never freed.

Let them keep their convenient update schedule. We just want something that is reliable on an affordable Perpetual License. With baseline releases. Once ~every 12 months for major Numbered ones with a few bug fixes is enough to troubleshoot. I've been through CS4 (unusable on Mac), CS5 (encouraging but lots of crashes), CS 5.5 (which broke one of my main cameras support, amongst other problems), and now finally have CS6 that works most of the time with most of it's features. All the releases are finicky with NVidia updates, at least on the Mac. I finally have a reasonably stable system. Do I really want it to be diddled with constantly? Sure, I could update when I want, but if I am afraid to for fear of breaking something (again) what is the point? Most of us just get someone on the phone who is clueless when we call support. Script readers. We don't have the higher ups phone numbers.

Why can't we have CC for those it serves like you and for those who chose it, and Perpetual Licenses with baselines for those who don't? Or a way out that doesn't take 5 years? Seems simple to me. It has worked for the past year. It all comes down to money, really, doesn't it? Adobe was quite profitable before this mess. I'm willing to pay, but not forever and ever. I know I am not alone.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Kris Merkel
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:21:43 pm

The Video of the presentations should be up on the atlantacutters.com website by the end of the weekend for anyone who wants to see it.

Other than the facts of what is in the CC release that is available on the 17th, Al alluded to features that will be available shortly after, and couldn't say anything more. As we heard at the meeting Al and Dennis are not the marketing folks, they are the Product managers that talk directly with us and have every incentive to make the production apps even better. So their excitement of what they know and we do not, is not just Hype. Of course only my opinion.

But for very few to be so hung up on a company innovating and feeling like they have been disenfranchised by that company. If you really want to hold on the the past that bad, contact me directly and I have a copy of FCP3 I will sell you, cheap. That should settle things. Also my opinion.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
twitter: @kris_merkel
Product Manager, Flanders Scientific Inc.
http://www.shopfsi.com
Co-Founder, Atlanta Cutters Post Production User Group
http://www.atlantacutters.com

2.2Ghz MBP core i7
16Gb RAM
CS6/FCP7
AJA T-Tap
AJA IO XT
FSI LM-2461W/CM-170W







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Steve Connor
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:23:39 pm

[Kris Merkel] "Other than the facts of what is in the CC release that is available on the 17th, Al alluded to features that will be available shortly after, and couldn't say anything more."

I would imagine Adobe have saved a few features to release shortly after launch, to highlight the update advantages of CC, or am I being cynical?

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Kris Merkel
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 6:26:35 pm

I think that they are always developing so there are always features that are being held back until they are ready to be added to the suite.

That is a given.

"Think of everything in terms of building capacity."

Kris Merkel
twitter: @kris_merkel
Product Manager, Flanders Scientific Inc.
http://www.shopfsi.com
Co-Founder, Atlanta Cutters Post Production User Group
http://www.atlantacutters.com

2.2Ghz MBP core i7
16Gb RAM
CS6/FCP7
AJA T-Tap
AJA IO XT
FSI LM-2461W/CM-170W







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David McGavran
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 1:32:40 am

[Kris Merkel] "I think that they are always developing so there are always features that are being held back until they are ready to be added to the suite."

We work on features pretty much year round. At some given point we have to stop working on features and finish a release. When that is going on there is a new release getting built. Before we had to maintain different "branches" of releases one with only bug fixes and one with new features. Now we only need one branch for features and bug fixes. Very cool from my point of view. (slightly simplified but pretty close)

Cheers

Dave

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Senior Engineering Manager Adobe Premiere Pro
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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:22:37 pm

[Kris Merkel] "f you really want to hold on the the past that bad, contact me directly and I have a copy of FCP3 I will sell you, cheap. That should settle things."

Except I can pay you once for that copy and still be able to use it...editors are still cutting lots of good content in FCP Legacy (unless you mean Final Cut Pro 3, not Final Cut Pro Studio 3...but then that wouldn't make a lot of sense).


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:13:39 pm

[walter biscardi] "One of the most interesting points for me is how the perpetual licensing model actually hamstrings update releases. With that model, they MUST only release updated features at set times during the year. They cannot simply release features at any time they're ready as they are now able to do with the Creative Cloud."

[walter biscardi] " I'd never heard that side before and it was very interesting."

with the best will in the world Walter, you hadn't head this by now? because, I could almost swear someone from Adobe PR was actually shouting that line through my letterbox the other evening.

that particular rationale for perpetual rent really has done the rounds quite a bit.

that said - it sounded like a great meeting - look forward to the stream.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:27:22 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that particular rationale for perpetual rent really has done the rounds quite a bit."

I really don't buy it...look, if you really wanted to go that route, why not break apart the suite entirely? Sell perpetual licenses of individual products and keep them updated so that they work together, even when you move ahead with, say, Photoshop but not Premiere.

After all, if the entire suite of applications is becoming interdependent on one another, then does that not belie the point about updating individual pieces? What if After Effects CCv2 breaks something in the Dynamic Link portion with Premiere CC v1? Then Premiere has to be updated as well, and you can't release one without the other now.

And Adobe's not exactly worried about this from past experiences. They didn't exactly Adobe-ise Speedgrade for CS6...why would I think they would have held off on doing that if they had acquired it after CC? Frankly, I don't see there being much difference then how things are done now.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 8:44:10 pm

[Gary Huff] "I really don't buy it."

God neither do I - it's a rationale - it doesn't mean there is no logic to it, but its not the reason. The reason is money.

It's the thing they can't say and we all know. That's half the reason this "conversation" is so tortured - from their side and ours.
Herb made a pretty brilliant point above that software advance is largely determined by development budget - not release slots.

And its really not the price that bothers me - I deeply value the tools, the price is not my issue; its the near complete loss of control.
It's just too unnerving, and way, way, way too sudden. Adobe didn't have to do it like this.

Also there's at least some chance that, as a customer base, we largely refuse the medicine and barf all over them.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tom Daigon
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 30, 2013 at 9:02:49 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "And its really not the price that bothers me - I deeply value the tools, the price is not my issue; its the near complete loss of control."

This is the situation in a nutshell to a lot of us.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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William McCauley
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 12:35:05 am

I was at he ATL Cutters meeting as well last night. Thanks to everyone who volunteers to make that a great meeting each month. Special thanks to Walter, Dan, Kris and TJ...

I'm one of those people who migrated from FCS3 to PPro 6... primarily because I didn't want to be limited in my creative options editing... And at that time it seemed more constrained than PPro. Long before that I used the Adobe Creative Suite because it had most of the production tools I needed for web work... For the past year I basically have had several collections with many of the adobe apps in common but neither the Creative Suite or Production Premium by themselves were comprehensive choices by for me. In May I made an instinctive decision to go with CC, Frankly thinking I was going to get the updates then... But apparently there was small print indicating a June Release of CC. Crap... So here is the interesting data... I have 104 Months of documented use of Adobe products at the overall total cost of 4,100 bucks. That works out to be 39.00 a month. So at least for the next year I save some money. ( I'll try using one of my other qualifying Adobe serial numbers next year...)

The CC Pros...
1) I get to use everything... and do... I'm probably in 6 to 8 apps every month, Heavy use of Audition, Premier, Photoshop and Media encoder which I need to evolve because I spend way to many clicks to accomplish basically the batch processing of dozens of sequences at a time... (Submitted a enhancement request with a detailed Story/ Use case model... But not holding my breath...)
2) Frequent updates that I control (Not mid project)

The CC Hope...
1) Continued integration across apps for improvement to rapid/reliable workflows...

The CC Cons...
1) Because adobe has a steady cash flow now... They go bureaucratic in process and become unwieldy in size for efficient development. Said another way... Rest on their Laurels cause they got'cha...

The CC Backup Plan
Now I do have a backup drive with everything CS6 in case CC over the next two years doesn't continue to push the creative industry...

William McCauley
Peachtree Video Productions LLC
MacPro 4,1
2.93 HHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
10.6.8
24 gigs ram
Small Raid 0
Nvidia Quadro 4000


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Gary Huff
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 1:36:51 am

[William McCauley] "1) I get to use everything... and do... I'm probably in 6 to 8 apps every month, Heavy use of Audition, Premier, Photoshop and Media encoder which I need to evolve because I spend way to many clicks to accomplish basically the batch processing of dozens of sequences at a time... (Submitted a enhancement request with a detailed Story/ Use case model... But not holding my breath...)"

Are you using more than just those? Premiere and Media Encoder come together, and I use basically the same (along with AE and Lightroom) and that's still only a third of the apps currently on the list.


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David McGavran
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 1:37:02 am

[Gary Huff] "And Adobe's not exactly worried about this from past experiences. They didn't exactly Adobe-ise Speedgrade for CS6...why would I think they would have held off on doing that if they had acquired it after CC? Frankly, I don't see there being much difference then how things are done now.
"


FYI the SpeedGrade team joined Adobe 4 months or so before we released CS6. They did a great job of integrating into the Adobe system. Amazing team those guys. Now with CC version the UI is much more Adobefied (had another year) plus some awesome features. Not only that they ported the entire Speedgrade engine to Mercury GPU and put it inside of Premiere. All in 1 year. Serious amount of effort there. Just imagine what they can do in another 6 months.

Cheers

Dave

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David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Senior Engineering Manager Adobe Premiere Pro
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Jim Wiseman
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 2:37:28 am

Speedgrade integrated in one year. The normal Creative Suite release schedule.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Walter Soyka
Re: Adobe at the Atlanta Cutters last night
on May 31, 2013 at 3:45:27 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Speedgrade integrated in one year. The normal Creative Suite release schedule."

Of course. The first release of CC is being made on the old CS release schedule.

(And it's rather an enormous amount of work they've done in that year!)

The point is that going forward, future feature releases can come "off-cycle," whenever they are ready. By way of example, Premiere Pro may have been able to release something like Lumetri looks, the clip mixer or keyboard-driven track nudging six months ago instead of waiting for the big suite release next month.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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