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Todd Kopriva
new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 2:46:47 am

Here's an update from the Creative Cloud team that touches on some of the matters that have been discussed here over the past few weeks:

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/our-move-to-creative-cloud-an-update/

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Tom Daigon
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 4:52:38 am

And, as expected, Adobe continues to disappoint. Its a shame corporate has undermined all the good work that its talented employees have done on the video software.

https://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-m...

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 5:30:14 am

[Tom Daigon] "And, as expected, Adobe continues to disappoint. Its a shame corporate has undermined all the good work that its talented employees have done on the video software."

Yep, more corporate-speak. Fail.

http://www.cluetrain.com

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James Culbertson
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:25:01 am

[David Lawrence] "Yep, more corporate-speak. Fail."

Agreed. Even if they do roll back and offer a CS alternative at some point, brand loyalty is now effectively 0. So much user good will lost in such a short period of time.

And the CC education team pricing is just completely perplexing to me. It's like they want to hand off the next generation of users to other competitors.


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Mark Dobson
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 7:40:52 am

What's really interesting about the Adobe response is that whilst acknowledging the dissatisfaction at a corporate level they seem determined to ignore it.

The blog misinterprets the core subscription complaint by saying:

"Some customers are not convinced that Creative Cloud is right for them and would rather continue to purchase desktop applications as before."

What 'Some Customers' want is to not have to permanently mortgage their essential tools of the trade.

But the clink of light is that they seem to be preparing to alter their stance on photography related software:

"For photographers, we are looking at potential offerings that recognize the photography community – because it is so broad – has some unique needs"

So maybe if the 'Video community' continue to stamp their feet and complain Adobe will start to recognise their needs. Surely the video community is also broad and also has unique needs.

So let's keep up the pressure, keep complaining, not in the confines of the Adobe Forums, but out in the open on platforms such as this.

Adobe software is superb, Adobe staff are highly responsive and committed and nobody likes being criticised. In my opinion the huge level of complaint against Apple after the launch of FCPX radically affected the future development of the application for the better.


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Greg Andonian
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:24:11 pm

[James Culbertson] So much user good will lost in such a short period of time.

Yeah, seriously. Apple should never have pulled the plug on FCP7 and tossed it aside the way they- Oh, wait a minute- We're talking about Adobe now. Sorry about that... with so much customer alienating going on these days, sometimes things get a little confusing.

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:54:26 pm

[Greg Andonian] "Sorry about that... with so much customer alienating going on these days, sometimes things get a little confusing."

Yeah, what's up with that? I mean seriously. Not a good way to keep customers.

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Jim Wiseman
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:06:54 am

Photography is one area they don't have sewn up. They have competition from Apple's Aperture that gets new camera RAW updates directly from OS X system wide on a regular basis. I hardly ever use Photoshop for my photo business and art photography anymore because of the imaging capabilities of Aperture. Aperture sells for $79 in the Mac App Store, less than 3 months rent of CC discounted, a month and half next year. Key is that Adobe has to update Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) directly. If they freeze people at the current release, they will not have access to new cameras RAW files in LR and PS as they appear. Photography is too important to their other design software. It feeds all of them. They can't afford to lose the pros and high end amateurs who are furious about this move to rental. Check some photo web sites. They will either keep Lightroom perpetual and update RAW decoders directly or offer a LR/PS combo pack. Perhaps we can convince them that video is also important.

A very disappointing "feedback response". We knew they wouldn't cave easily. The only thing left is to keep your dollars in your pocket and stay off of Creative Cloud. It could take time, but they are getting no more of my money. I have to believe those at the top don't know what they have awakened.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:25:52 am

Lightroom is already staying perpetual.

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2013/05/lightroom-and-the-creative-...

v4 is available in the AppStore if you are on a Mac.

While the blog post doesn't address what most seem to worry about in the terms and costs of long term licensing, it does seem, albeit very vaguely, to address the worry of project file access.

I'll be curious on the details of how that shakes out.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:34:06 am

Thanks, Jeremy. Heard something about perpetual LR on Luminous Landscape a week or two ago.

If their solution is to save layered TIFFs, XMLs, etc., that is not going to be good enough. I think everyone on all sides of this issue are finally about to crash into the reality of all of this very soon.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:43:47 am

Yeah, real indeed.


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Ben Mullins
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:57:23 am

This article really doesn't address the main concern at all (ownership) and apart from being poorly constructed is also quite insulting. A total politicians tactic - to answer a different question than the one being asked. And then to end the article with some dribble about honest and open dialogue. I apologise if this seems negative, I am on CC and look forward to the next Premiere but all my trust in Adobe has gone and if this situation doesn't change over the next year it'll be Media Composer for me.



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Michael Hendrix
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 11:59:23 am

I think this response may also just be buying time. I think they want to see if the negative has any impact on subscription rates.



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Tim Vaughan
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 12:28:42 pm

Is it me, or is this profession as a whole really getting dumped on lately? With Apple playing games and thinking its funny to not provide real info on a Mac Pro, and their little game with FCPx--which no one really knows if they're going to keep moving in the pro market or just decide one day to stop...--and Adobe now trying to tie a damn pay collar around all our necks, we're getting played hard. Windows has even jumped in to it with their little touchscreen gimmicks and trendy OS. I love advancement in technology as anyone does, but sometimes pushing the envelope is just simply bowing to trends and not providing substance.
I know operating your own practice is never guaranteed, but I never thought the actual tools of our trade would be held hostage by the very ideas that make us. It's an absolute shame, and I for one am deeply saddened that the company that makes the tools I love is the same company that decided to commit to a path of corporate enslavement.

Tim
Apple XRAID, XServe, 2008 2x3 GHz Quad-Core MacPro, Macbook Pro, XSAN, Dell Studio xps PC's
FCP Studio (7), AVID Media Composer, Adobe Production Premium, Maxon Cinema 4d, AJA Kona 3, Flanders Scientific Monitors, Panasonic HPX250's, Kessler Crane, Glidecam.....
Beer fridge fully loaded.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 12:38:09 pm

yeah. this is just depressing - that statement boils down to:

"we're nervous about photographers for some reason, so they'll maybe get special treatment, we'll also say something non-committal about file access, and everyone else can basically get stuffed."

I'm as surprised that they didn't address education as anything -
that narrative around education and charities makes Adobe look like a pack of cheap thugs.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim Dowse
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 3:25:25 pm

It seems to me the main complaint with Creative Cloud is being "held hostage" because of the need to continue to subscribe to maintain access to files.

The blog states:

With regards to file access, Adobe completely agrees that customers should have access to their files if they choose to stop their Creative Cloud membership... and we expect to have news around this issue shortly.

Obviously, we need to see what they actually say, but I doubt they make a statement like that lightly. If they do sort out this particular issue in a genuinely satisfying way (i.e. most folks no longer feel like they're being "held hostage"), then for me, problem solved.

In my view, two potentially satisfying solutions:
1. Loyalty scheme, as I've stated several times before. (eg. here)
2. Some kind of lock on the software, whereby, when you stop paying, you can't create any new files, but you can open, and make limited modifications to existing ones.

If your main complaint is the price increase, well then go buy other software, if you can find a deal that matches the Adobe offering. Or keep CS6 on a machine that runs it... perpetually.

FWIW, I completely agree that they need to address educational pricing issues... it'll be incredibly short-sighted of them if they don't.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 3:56:25 pm

[Tim Dowse] "
Obviously, we need to see what they actually say, but I doubt they make a statement like that lightly. If they do sort out this particular issue in a genuinely satisfying way (i.e. most folks no longer feel like they're being "held hostage"), then for me, problem solved.
"


me too - largely - although how you transfer the equivalent of opening a PSD for export to an active timeline would be intriguing.

[Tim Dowse] "In my view, two potentially satisfying solutions:
1. Loyalty scheme, as I've stated several times before. (eg. here)"


you may not realise this, but I have quoted you on that quite a few times. It's my version of WWJD.

five years continuous annual subscription, three grand in - you get a loyalty software archive provided as is with limited ongoing support.

[Tim Dowse] "If your main complaint is the price increase, well then go buy other software,"

I have absolutely no, none, nothing whatsoever of an issue with the pricing, but they need to provide some mental breathing space. We're talking about a software archive every half decade. It would allow the customer (for that read little Andy here), to feel some tiny measure of perceived control.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Brandon Davidson
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 30, 2013 at 7:13:20 pm

[Tim Dowse] "It seems to me the main complaint with Creative Cloud is being "held hostage" because of the need to continue to subscribe to maintain access to files. "

I totally agree with you. For me personally, it's the uncertainty that if for any reason Adobe heads in the wrong direction or if I am unable to pay, then I would be stuck with all my project files being useless (except to export the final movie files and jpegs, etc).

For me it feels like deciding whether or not to go into a trapeze acrobatics act where the ring master says there will be no safety net (and it's to the ringmaster's benefit to have no safety net). If I were to go into it, the hope is that I would be talented enough to never fall (I can always afford the cloud and be totally fine), and that I could trust the ringer master enough to always care about me and my safety (that Adobe would always take care of its customers and not mess them over). There's a lot of trust required and other factors involved individually. And for a lot of people, that works great (and I commend them for it and having nothing against it). But me personally, my situation is such that I would feel a lot better knowing a net is there in case I fall or in case the ringmaster stops watching out for me.

As soon as I feel like that issue of being held hostage is removed, then honestly I would feel a lot more excited to move into the cloud. I love the idea of constant updates as well as the cloud technology. But I don't like trusting that I won't ever fall off the trapeze or that the ring master will always have my back. Australia's Adobe prices are an example to me where I don't completely trust the ring master...but I'm also holding out hope that Adobe will be listening and provide a "safety net" for those of us who are worried (their software development suggests that they do listen to their customers and have passion for what they do).


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Tom Daigon
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 30, 2013 at 8:08:24 pm

[Brandon Davidson] " For me personally, it's the uncertainty that if for any reason Adobe heads in the wrong direction or if I am unable to pay, then I would be stuck with all my project files being useless (except to export the final movie files and jpegs, etc)."

That is the crux of my concern as well.

Tom Daigon
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Rainer Schubert
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on Jun 1, 2013 at 7:48:09 pm

Nice translation - but nothing than the truth :)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 3:23:39 pm

[Tim Vaughan] "Is it me, or is this profession as a whole really getting dumped on lately? With Apple playing games and thinking its funny to not provide real info on a Mac Pro, and their little game with FCPx--which no one really knows if they're going to keep moving in the pro market or just decide one day to stop...--and Adobe now trying to tie a damn pay collar around all our necks, we're getting played hard. "

At least you know exactly where Adobe stands. It is up to you to take the deal or not. Enslavement is a big word.

As someone who actually like FCPX, I have no idea what the hell Apple is up to. None.

Avid, is playing weird financial games that I don't understand. The guy that was in charge for a while just walked away to "pursue other interests".

Then there's Autodesk, which if you talk to anyone that has survived the Combustion/Edit days will tell you that customer loyalty is out the window.

Lightworks seems decent, but still very new.

There's Grass Valley, and Sony. Sony.

At least you have a way to respond, directly, to company representatives, and they are telling you, very vaguely, what is in store. The next version of the software has been previewed, and CC anxieties aside, people seem to be responding favorably to the changes that have been made from a usability stand point.

I can't think of any other global technology company anywhere that is communicating quite like this, especially when the company is providing something that people actually want to use from a professional stand point. Microsoft has done a bit of communicating lately with the Xbox One announcement, there have been some different but similar concerns from gamers about what it is they might be signing up for when buying an Xbox One.

For the record, the education piece seems weird to me. There's so many mixed messages. Adobe does have some serious work to do there.

What I would like to hear is WHY the Cloud makes sense to Adobe, and why perpetual licenses don't make sense. I am sure it has to do with stabilizing the income, but my bet is that it goes beyond the math.


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Walter Soyka
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 5:45:51 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What I would like to hear is WHY the Cloud makes sense to Adobe, and why perpetual licenses don't make sense. I am sure it has to do with stabilizing the income, but my bet is that it goes beyond the math."

My guess is threefold:

1) It's not about the money, but it's about the money. CC will provide an even revenue stream, and it will probably ultimately increase their Customer Lifetime Value (meaning we all ultimately pay more over our careers, especially those who regularly skip upgrades). To get this same money, they would have had to increase the cost of Creative Suite. I'm sure that would have been unpopular, too. CC at least keeps the barrier to entry low by eliminating the upfront cost.

2) Subscription billing allows them to still bundle the offering as a suite, but frees them from the ready-or-not CS release schedule, without worrying about SOX and withholding revenue for feature updates.

3) Subscription billing allows them to integrate services into the products, bringing mobile/connected/social elements to the creative apps. I think of this a little bit like Twitter. It looked pretty useless when it launched (sorry, mate, but I don't care what you had for lunch), but network effect combined with the creativity of its users made it very cool after all -- and it's not the sort of thing you can put in a box.

I'm really excited about 2 and 3, and I'm willing to put up with 1 for them -- especially if Adobe comes up with something for the "file ownership" issue as this blog entry suggests.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Tim Dowse
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:16:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] I'm really excited about 2 and 3, and I'm willing to put up with 1 for them -- especially if Adobe comes up with something for the "file ownership" issue as this blog entry suggests.

Walter, you always have excellent posts. I agree with this one completely. I have so far been underwhelmed by the prospects of mobile/connected/social elements, but I think you are right - once that kind of thing is unleashed, it takes on a life of it's own, and the Twitter analogy is a great one. Hadn't thought about it in that way.

The main plus points of CC for me are the freedom from the CS release schedule (CS works brilliantly as a brand, but it must be an absolute nightmare to manage from the developers point of view); and the low cost of entry.

My guess is that they were expecting the extremely low entry cost to make using CC a no-brainer for people just starting out. But they need the industry on their side if it's to be an "industry standard," and that's the only way it'll be a true no-brainer.

I really hope they find a way to sort out the "file ownership" issue to ease the minds of most of the folks with this quite reasonable concern. That's why I was encouraged by the original blog linked to at the top.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 7:47:57 pm

[Tim Dowse] "My guess is that they were expecting the extremely low entry cost to make using CC a no-brainer for people just starting out. But they need the industry on their side if it's to be an "industry standard," and that's the only way it'll be a true no-brainer."

In a lot of ways the so-called "low entry cost"is anything but to a new business. Starting out, it is sometimes easier to budget for a large one-time fee rather than a monthly cost. Truth be told, it is often the monthly bills that are put off being paid on time by new businesses operating at margin or in the red (at least according to the small-business owners I know). I don't necessarily think it is CC that would break the bank, but if subscription software takes off in a big way, I can see the small business guy getting nickled and dimed to death.

I've heard a lot of folks say; "well it's cheaper than my cell phone bill." That would be great if you could replace your phone bill with CC. But you can't. It is another bill on top of the ones you are already paying (business internet service, rent, phone, etc.)

I mean, it could turn out the way Adobe expects. Perhaps not. Only time will tell. Maybe Adobe will have to create a whole new collection staff to gather back-owed subscriptions if they do institute a grace period of any length before shutting off for late payment. In a way, it is a whole new wickiup and I don't think it is going to play out in a manner anyone really expects.


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Gary Huff
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 8:31:35 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I'm really excited about 2 and 3, and I'm willing to put up with 1 for them -- especially if Adobe comes up with something for the "file ownership" issue as this blog entry suggests."

Except Adobe marketing may be pulling a fast one on that. How do we know they don't mean files you stored on their Dropbox service instead of actually being able to open project files?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 30, 2013 at 1:40:17 am

[Walter Soyka] "1) It's not about the money, but it's about the money. "

I don't know where you came up with such a silly notion! ;)

For 1,2, and 3, I just want to hear Adobe say it.

I don't want to hear that my world will be connected more now than ever by mobile devices. No, duh.

Tell me that it's a good business decision, tell me that it will...make development schedule more attainable and creative, or whatever, tell me that Austalia's import tariffs are so bent that the Cloud makes sense for us, just tell me the real reasons.

I'm a pro, I can handle it.

For those folks that don't pay for their software that I've talked to, but are hired to use it everyday, they seem to be more excited about CC. These are folks that do want all the upgrades, but for whatever reason don't have access to them through their work or institution. The CC model allows them access to the newest software and will take advantage of a faster path to current offerings.


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 3:55:18 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "A very disappointing "feedback response". We knew they wouldn't cave easily. The only thing left is to keep your dollars in your pocket and stay off of Creative Cloud. It could take time, but they are getting no more of my money. I have to believe those at the top don't know what they have awakened."

"Adobe completely agrees that customers should have access to their files if they choose to stop their Creative Cloud membership."

The fact that they're only starting to address this now and didn't have an answer ready the day of the Adobe Max announcement shows how utterly clueless senior management has been this entire time.

This announcement feels like they're winging it, scrambling to come up with something.

They can fix this instantly if they want to. Keep the pressure on.

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David Lawrence
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Tim Dowse
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 4:11:45 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] It's my version of WWJD.

Love it! Made my day. I've been away for a little while, so I didn't notice being quoted, but I knew we were thinking alike on this one.


[David Lawrence] The fact that they're only starting to address this now and didn't have an answer ready the day of the Adobe Max announcement shows how utterly clueless senior management has been this entire time.

Maybe, but if they're starting to address it, I think they deserve some credit for that.

Clearly they feel the subscription model is best for their business, and a dispassionate analysis shows that there are genuine benefits to it, even if there are "deal-breaker" drawbacks for some. If they can fix the deal-breakers so satisfy most disgruntled folks, then I say good luck to them, and move forward with the subscription model.


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 5:14:25 pm

[Tim Dowse] "Maybe, but if they're starting to address it, I think they deserve some credit for that.

Clearly they feel the subscription model is best for their business, and a dispassionate analysis shows that there are genuine benefits to it, even if there are "deal-breaker" drawbacks for some. If they can fix the deal-breakers so satisfy most disgruntled folks, then I say good luck to them, and move forward with the subscription model."


I don't think anyone has a problem with the subscription model itself, the problem is subscription model or nothing, right? Something Adobe still refuses to acknowledge.

They're addressing it because - surprise - customers are pissed and instead of talking about how awesome the features of the next release are, 95% of the internet buzz is about how Adobe out to screw their customers. It doesn't even matter if this is true or not. That is the perception. Adobe has lost control of the message. This is one of the worst marketing blunders I have ever seen.

They need to do something meaningful to fix this. A loyalty buy-out would be an excellent solution.

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David Lawrence
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Tim Dowse
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:00:57 pm

[David Lawrence] They're addressing it because - surprise - customers are pissed

I think they deserve credit for doing that. Responding to pissed off customers is a good thing.

[David Lawrence] A loyalty buy-out would be an excellent solution.

Woohoo!!!

[David Lawrence] This is one of the worst marketing blunders I have ever seen.

I can think of a worse one :-). In this case, at least they're still selling a phenomenal product.


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:12:02 pm

[Tim Dowse] "I can think of a worse one :-). In this case, at least they're still selling a phenomenal product."

lol, no I think this even tops that one. ;)

I agree the products are outstanding. But the brand has been trashed. I've never seen a company shoot itself in the face like this before. All they had to do was wait one or two more years and give fair warning of their future direction to prep customer expectations. Senior management was greedy. I think it's really that simple.

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David Lawrence
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Tim Dowse
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:25:24 pm

[David Lawrence] lol, no I think this even tops that one. ;)

Not sure. The equivalent in this case would be Adobe dropping the price of "CS7" to $500, but releasing an inappropriate product, missing many basic features, that doesn't suit professional needs (but does allow import of instagram photos :-D ), immediately stopping sales of CS6, and then trying to tell everyone they'd reinvented the world of post.

For my money, I'd rather be having a debate about the price and ownership structure than the product itself.

That said...

[David Lawrence] ...the brand has been trashed. I've never seen a company shoot itself in the face like this before. All they had to do was wait one or two more years and give fair warning of their future direction to prep customer expectations.

Some truth to this for sure. Yes, it's damaged their brand in a bad way. They are still selling and supporting CS6, which they might have thought would be sufficient to ease the transition, although obviously it hasn't worked out that way. And they are, apparently, trying to find ways to make up for their blunder. I don't think that happened with that other company (what was their name again?)


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:33:17 pm

[Tim Dowse] "And they are, apparently, trying to find ways to make up for their blunder. I don't think that happened with that other company (what was their name again?)"

Sure it did. The other company also thought they knew what was best. When their customers vocally disagreed, all of the sudden, missing features (PIOPs anyone?) started appearing (not that it made anyone happy, lol).

This is an epic marketing disaster for Adobe. I too am happy they're planning to do something, but I'll hold my praise until we see what it is. They have to do much better. I'm still not sure they get it.

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David Lawrence
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Tim Dowse
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:36:38 pm

[David Lawrence] I too am happy they're planning to do something, but I'll hold my praise until we see what it is. They have to do much better. I'm still not sure they get it.

Well, withholding praise is one thing, calling it a "fail" is another. Anyway, we both want the same thing... I hope they deliver the goods.


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James Culbertson
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 30, 2013 at 5:50:29 am

[David Lawrence] "[Tim Dowse] "And they are, apparently, trying to find ways to make up for their blunder. I don't think that happened with that other company (what was their name again?)"

Except that FCPX is now a powerful editor that competes with, and in some ways exceeds, MC and Premiere functionally. The equivalent would be that Adobe would have to re-institute perpetual licenses or something equivalent within 2 years; otherwise, it would be as if Apple released FCPX 10.0.0 and left it at that.

Plus, FCPX is what percentage of Apple's brand? 0.001% or less? Adobe messed up 100% of its brand with CC.


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Shawn Miller
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:45:42 pm

[David Lawrence] "[Tim Dowse] "I can think of a worse one :-). In this case, at least they're still selling a phenomenal product."

lol, no I think this even tops that one. ;)"


Ha ha ha. It might be fun to play "Which One is Worse". My vote goes to the EOL announcement for XServe. :-)

Apple: Sorry folks, XServe is dead. Move along, nothing to see here.

Customer: I just bought 1.5 million in hardware and software a month ago!

Apple: Yeah, thanks for that and sorry about your luck.

I think the only thing that makes Adobe's subscription rollout slightly better is that they're not pulling CS6 off the shelves... other than that, yeah, the transition from CS to CC is pretty ham handed. I'm actually surprised at how badly Adobe is doing this. :-)

Shawn



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Jim Wiseman
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:26:23 pm

A loyalty buyout of five years seems to me to be a bit of a fold. At my time in my career I'd rather pay the five years up front and know the cost while I am still earning. There is no guarantee they won't raise the rental rate in the future. How can we really trust them now? I want to be able to access the software I choose until I drop dead, to be blunt. When you're 40 or less, you think you will live forever. After the age of 50 or so you begin to see your limits. I want to know I can afford the software when I no longer want to do commercial work (in my case in the high paying field of non-profits now) which frankly is less than five years, certainly on a full time basis. I have many video art projects and hundreds of hours of rare documentary footage (shot with the non-profits) to put into some kind of shape. I started in 1970 with Nam June Paik at CalArts (look him up), and my first job was as an AD on studio multicam music and documentary producer with the first Sony PortaPaks at WTTW PBS in Chicago in 1973. Now you know how old I am. I suppose 40 years of paying for equipment and software should entitle me to 10 or 15 years of doing what I wish to do and had projected financially before this debacle. It's called the desire to establish a legacy. Legacies are living things, not dead things on a shelf, uneditable. Books which cannot be quoted. I don't want mine to just be the commercial work I've done. Who would? Maybe some. I want to give back something valuable.

With the Perpetual License model, I could count on the future of the software working, and that anyone I brought on could afford it and have access to my projects in the future at a reasonable, budgetable cost. Adobe has stolen that with Creative Cloud as rental. To me five years is a copout that lets the salesman get his foot in the door, and that salesman is selling the equivalent of an addictive substance for which you have no desire to quit. It's called an addiction. I suppose 5 years is better than what they have on the table now. What wouldn't be. Enslavement with no out and no fixed price in a very limited marketplace.

I would prefer a buyout at any time on a sliding scale of $3000/five year period, out any year pro-rated, you could even throw in a cost of living adjustment. Then we will see where they are really at on price increases. Believe me, there will come a time when you will want this too, financially, and certainly if you are at all emotionally involved in your work.

Thanks Adobe. Maybe someone will steal something valuable to you. It could be your customers if you don't wake up. Customers, it could be your last productive years.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Gary Huff
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 10:32:00 pm

[David Lawrence] "Yep, more corporate-speak. Fail."

ATTENTION! ATTENTION! We are bringing you this announcement, that we will one day be bringing you an announcement.

That is all.


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walter biscardi
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 30, 2013 at 9:17:09 pm

[Tom Daigon] "And, as expected, Adobe continues to disappoint. Its a shame corporate has undermined all the good work that its talented employees have done on the video software.
"


It continues to disappoint for some, but for a much larger majority (500,000 and counting at last check) the company continues to impress. You better believe Adobe has incredibly talented employees who continue to make our production work better and cut down on my bottom line.

For that we're thankful.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media


Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
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Rainer Schubert
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on Jun 1, 2013 at 7:51:58 pm

Yes I´m thankful for all the developers work. Really. And also: The if the Apps are not as good - the concern wouldn´t be that great.
Thank´s therefor also from my side to all the people who made my brushes over the last decades.
But your leadership, Adobe, can be blown away by the wind, on their pink high glossy cloud.
And I still hope, they will never come back.


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Rob Brandreth-Gibbs
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:18:14 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression there could be a couple guys here who may not be future Adobe customers. :^)

From my professional POV, the monthly charge amounts to nothing. Relative to a project budget and mission criticality. I spend more on project soft drinks. ('Course that could all change.) Ymmv.

But I'm still a bit irritated.

"...because of the constant stream of innovation that we’re able to deliver."

Frankly, I believe most editors don't really care about up-to-the-minute innovation. I could live with innovation once a year, and even longer. At some point you have to believe the "shovel" is complete. It can dig a hole, already. At some point it becomes window dressing and excuses to charge, imh(cynical)o. (Think MS Word. We can write a letter, ok?) So the exercise becomes one of "How do we make'em still pay?" We end up with these telephone-sized user manuals for core edit functions deserving 3 pages. Imagine the user manual in 20 years as arcane features must be added for the purposes of "innovation" and price justification. Now this is a general software rant. Of course I exaggerate, much, for effect.

"Creative Cloud also allows us to explore new areas in mobile apps, helping you collaborate better and build a meaningful worldwide community to share work and find inspiration."

In my experience, most corporate video producers don't want to pay extra for "exploration." Don't need to share editing. Certainly would not, and can not, share client's videos, especially before completion. Don't need to pay monthly in perpetuity to find inspiration. Other free avenues exist. What are you left with then?

"Because of this we have no plans to change our focus on Creative Cloud."

I like CC. Love Pr. Excited about using other included software. (Not the learning curves.) For the first time in my long career, I'll have up-to-date software. Bonus. But I wish Adobe had replied with something stronger - as they could have.

RBG

Rob Brandreth-Gibbs
Bravo Zulu Productions
Vancouver, Canada


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Shane Ross
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:53:42 pm

[Rob Brandreth-Gibbs] "Frankly, I believe most editors don't really care about up-to-the-minute innovation. I could live with innovation once a year, and even longer. At some point you have to believe the "shovel" is complete."

Precisely! There are many MANY people who don't need to be constantly on the cutting edge. Many companies, government agencies, schools...independent operators...who buy equipment and software, and use it for years. 5-8 years sometimes. Not upgrading because they don't need to.

What they have works...suits their needs. They "own" the perpetual license, and don't have to keep doling out dough just to use the software. Many places still use Windows XP, so guess at what version of Photoshop they might have! I know of several companies that still use Avid Meridians, Avid MC 2.0 Nitris....FCP 5.1, FCP 6. because it works, and does what they need. Many don't upgrade until they absolutely have to. So getting these people to constantly pay for software they aren't upgrading, is downright silly.

And it is no small group that does this...it's a large group. This is one reason why Adobe might be doing the Creative Cloud. Because not enough people keep up to day, paying the upgrade fees, to make it profitable enough to suit the company heads or stockholders. They love the idea of steady stream of income. Like buying up home loans...constant stream of money for 20-30 years.

This idea of "owning" the software...some say it's silly. 'You don't OWN it. It's licensed. Just happens to be a perpetual license.' Never mind that it has been treated like ownership for decades. Now suddenly we don't "own" it? There's going to be serious blowback. If other companies follow this pattern, I will stop using their software too.

Music companies say we don't "own" our music either. Just the media it happens to be on. They don't like that we can take that CD and rip it and put it on our iPod or mobile phone. They want us to pay separately if we want a copy on our iPod...because we are buying the delivery medium, not the song.

After all, we can't modify the song, change it and then play it again...because we don't own it. If we do so, we need to pay a licensing fee. Just like software I guess. We don't own it in that we can go in and start changing the code and make it do different things. We own the license to use it, on a limited number of machines. I am fine with that. But the new model...you don't own, period. You rent.

Sorry Todd, that blog post was simply corporate speak for "we hear you and note your concerns, but aren't going to change a thing. We believe that you being constantly up to date is important, and to be able to do that, we will continue to charge you." It has always been "when I want/need the innovative features, I'll buy them. But if I don't need them, I won't pay for them." The new model is "pay for the new features, whether you use them or not." Not the best piece of PR.

I do believe they will make money and this might take hold. They, like Apple, will just lose a contingent of users. Cost of doing business.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jim Wiseman
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 7:25:44 pm

Shane Ross: >This idea of "owning" the software...some say it's silly. 'You don't OWN it. It's licensed. Just happens to be a perpetual license.' Never mind that it has been treated like ownership for decades. Now suddenly we don't "own" it? There's going to be serious blowback. If other companies follow this pattern, I will stop using their software too.<

Excellent post Shane. Could quote more but people know where it is.

There is far too much churn in software. OS and applications. CS 6 is the first Premiere I have been able to get reasonably stable on the Mac Pro through three versions. Do I want to buy into constant change? No. Do I want to buy into rental? No. Do I want my projects to go poof when I quit paying. No.

What do I want? Stable consistent software and hardware combinations that work, and work well. Hard to do in an ever changing environment. Predictable costs, not never ending no guarantee on price rentals.

I was with you all the way until you said this might take hold. I find that to be utterly depressing.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Shane Ross
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 7:40:32 pm

My biggest issue is that it is the only option. I thought it was a great idea, and well suited to many people. But the ONLY option? Too many people and companies don't work that way, and can't work that way. It's great for many...and that 80% might still subscribe if there were also the option to buy.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 7:53:42 pm

[Shane Ross] "It's great for many...and that 80% might still subscribe if there were also the option to buy."

The 80% figure is bogus.

1) It's 80% of people who bought on Adobe.com last year, not total sales. I bought Production Premium from a reseller at a substantial discount.

2) It's people who bought in at first year discount rental pricing. This year their cost doubles. What's the churn rate? Too soon to tell.

3) It's people who bought in at first year discount rental pricing with the option to buy perpetual licenses later. Now that option is gone.

The real test is 6-12 months from now.

If Adobe really believes the marketing spin they're trying to feed customers, I think they're in for a big shock.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Gary Huff
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 8:40:50 pm

[David Lawrence] "If Adobe really believes the marketing spin they're trying to feed customers, I think they're in for a big shock."

I hope you're right.


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Tom Daigon
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 8:36:56 pm

Well said Shane. My feelings exactly.

Tom Daigon
PrP / After Effects Editor
HP Z820 Dual 2687
64GB ram
Dulce DQg2 16TB raid
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfV20RTBQmUxgDXDkRHDC_j2f62vBUF_n&fea...


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Gary Huff
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 8:39:38 pm

[Rob Brandreth-Gibbs] " Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression there could be a couple guys here who may not be future Adobe customers. :^)"

I'll tell you flat out that I am a happy Creative Cloud customer and I felt $30 per month was a good rate, especially since I use about a third of the entire offerings that are listed in the Adobe Application Manager. I have disabled the auto-renewal of another year of subscription, but not because I am particularly unhappy. Only that I understand the issue and think I need to do my part to make sure management's apparent distaste for their customer base is properly rewarded.

If things turn into sunshine and flowers, I can always start my subscription back up. Otherwise, if gets worse, I'd need to be looking for alternatives anyway.


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Charlie Austin
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 6:39:45 pm

We will continue to offer new innovation in apps and services on an ongoing basis, which is one of the top reasons members tell us they are subscribing. We were thrilled with customer adoption leading up to the announcement on May 6th, with over 80% of people purchasing on Adobe.com selecting Creative Cloud. That momentum continues today.

There's your statistics. I subscribe to CC, as do others here at work. Having a way to access projects if I stopped paying is important. That's it though. Despite all the petitions and Sturm und Drang, in the grand scheme of things it's probably coming from a relatively small number of users. Oh well....

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 8:43:03 pm

come on Charlie - have you, as they say, checked the internet lately?

this is an awful lot more than a few guys. Apart from anything else, around twenty seven thousand people have signed the petition.

Have you read the comments people put on there? It might as well be the UN.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 8:49:20 pm

All your base are belong to us


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Charlie Austin
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 8:56:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "All your base are belong to us"

You have no chance to survive make your time.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:01:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "All your base are belong to us"

NO ZIG!!!






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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Andrew Kimery
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 10:14:04 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "All your base are belong to us"

I think MS is going to go game heavy at E3 and will look smart for focusing on games at E3 and non-game features at the reveal. No one at an E3 presser wants to hear about how a video game console can check your pulse or let you video-chat with your family across the country.

With that being said, they do have some fires to put out w/regards to the console phoning home, used games, and borrowed games.

I can't find the link off hand, but I recently read that owners of current gen consoles (PS3, 360, Wii) use them to stream media more often than playing games online so I'm not surprised MS wanted to highlight the media capabilities of the Xbox One.




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John Davidson
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 10:31:25 pm

And how about the fact that you PAY for XBOX Live Gold, only to have big 'ADVERTISEMENTS' on your XBOX Live home screen.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 30, 2013 at 1:20:52 am

[Andrew Kimery] " No one at an E3 presser wants to hear about how a video game console can check your pulse or let you video-chat with your family across the country."

Unless, of course, these things help to pwn more n00bs.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 30, 2013 at 1:46:47 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Unless, of course, these things help to pwn more n00bs."

touché




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Charlie Austin
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 8:54:49 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "come on Charlie - have you, as they say, checked the internet lately?

this is an awful lot more than a few guys. Apart from anything else, around twenty seven thousand people have signed the petition.

Have you read the comments people put on there? It might as well be the UN."


LOL... Oh, it's a shedload of people alright, I just wonder what the percentage of petitioners to users who don't really care is. Apparently to Adobe, at this point, it's not too bad. They certainly aren't changing their tune much...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:01:35 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Apparently to Adobe, at this point, it's not too bad. They certainly aren't changing their tune much..."

Yet.

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David Lawrence
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Neil Bastin
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 9:51:07 pm

We were thrilled with customer adoption leading up to the announcement on May 6th, with over 80% of people purchasing on Adobe.com selecting Creative Cloud.

There's our statistics? 80% of people purchasing SINCE WHEN? This certainly doesn't count every living person with an Adobe ID, who has purchased, registered and activated a CS version in the past. Without that number, this statistic by itself gives only part of the picture.

Against the total statistical universe of legal Adobe users, I'm willing to bet the current CC subscriptions are closer to a true "relatively small number of users", not the other way around.

And please, why do we, as customers, keep idolizing corporations to the point of doing their PR work?


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Gary Huff
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 10:29:56 pm

[Neil Bastin] "And please, why do we, as customers, keep idolizing corporations to the point of doing their PR work?"

I'm going to approach this from the interpretation that you're asking why anyone would defend Adobe/Creative Cloud. As if their opinion is worthless and they are simply brainwashed or something.

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that someone thinks that the Adobe suite of programs at a subscription rate of $50/month is a great idea. So it wouldn't be very fair to basically say, "You must either be stupid or a shill for the company!" I hate that attitude.

I don't think anyone's really against Creative Cloud as an option, only against it as the sole option.


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David Lawrence
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 10:36:32 pm

[Gary Huff] "I don't think anyone's really against Creative Cloud as an option, only against it as the sole option."

This. ^

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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publicmattersgroup.com
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twitter.com/dhl


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 29, 2013 at 10:54:48 pm

absolutely - I'd happily grow old with the software - I just need a loyalty archive breather once a decade.

Man, you'd think that wasn't a crazy request.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Neil Bastin
Re: new blog post about response to feedback regarding Creative Cloud
on May 30, 2013 at 3:28:12 am

I apologize for not being clear, Gary. I certainly did not want to imply that everyone who defends Adobe and/or Creative Cloud is being brainwashed. Some - only some - may act like it, but I understand they're just expressing their passion and being grateful, but it is undeserved. CC as it is works for many but not for all. Anyone who wants to take Adobe's side should start by convincing THEM that CC has room for improvement instead of acting like Adobe knows all the answers and knows what's good for everyone.

Just like you, I think the Creative Cloud concept is mostly good but disagree on the way Adobe is implementing it. I also disagree on the way the corporation makes its case to convince its customers. Blaming all resistance on "misinformation" is a bit disrespectful, as the education sector has begun to demonstrate. Anyway, since this has no precedent, we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg. There is more to come.


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