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It was fun while it lasted

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Todd Stowe
It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 3:27:00 pm

I teach computer graphics at the high school level. I started with a small lab of 10 computers running Photoshop 5.0 back in 1998. I now have over 20 machines with a half dozen scanners, Wacom tablets for each and a site license for CS5. It looks like this will be the last version we will ever have.

I got a quote the other day for Creative Cloud from an academic reseller. Before we paid $7,000 for a 500 seat license of Adobe CS5. For Adobe CC we will pay about $2,200 a year. That’s just enough licenses for my lab, where before it was enough for every computer in the school. With decreasing budgets, I just don't think I'll be able to talk the district into spending that much ... every year.

We will use CS5 as long as possible but end the end, I don't see how the program will survive.


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Tyler Wiethorn
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 5:05:48 pm

[Todd Stowe] "I got a quote the other day for Creative Cloud from an academic reseller."

I don't know who this 'Academic Reseller' is, but unless it's your Account Executive with Adobe, I don't know how their quote could be accurate. There is K-12 institutional level pricing that, at 500 licenses, your school will obviously fit into. It's a subset of the master collection.


[Todd Stowe] "Before we paid $7,000 for a 500 seat license of Adobe CS5. "

I don't know how you got away with $14 dollars a license before, but you could never expect that deal could continue.

Get all the facts before you throw in the towel. I think CC could actually be a great thing for organizations such as yours. It's a permenant fixed price with no risk of obsolescence. If you had the funds to buy an entire classroom worth of Wacom tablets, surely your administration is supportive enough to continue making them functional.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 6:19:11 pm

[Tyler Wiethorn] "I think CC could actually be a great thing for organizations such as yours"

Honestly, I know it's pretty bad with all that's happening with Creative Cloud, but think about it, why don't teach your students tools that they can use right now, instead of CC apps that they won't be able to afford nor get, there are alternative apps that are going to be surfacing now since Adobe left a huge gap.
Pixelmator, Sketch, FCPX, Motion, Tumult Hype, and I'm sure more will follow, and they're very affordable, and you won;t have to rent them.
There's going top be a lot of demand for training for those apps (there's plenty of FCPx already though)


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Todd Stowe
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 6:59:13 pm

I didn't say we were dumping the program tomorrow. But you can't keep the same software forever. Use WordPerfect lately?

Eventually you have to upgrade. We aren't going to be able to do that. So, when that day comes...the program is gone.


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Todd Stowe
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 6:56:37 pm

I think I got the facts right.

[Tyler Wiethorn] "I don't know who this 'Academic Reseller' is, but unless it's your Account Executive with Adobe, I don't know how their quote could be accurate."

It's Academic Superstore...the company the Adobe rep told me to call. Know much about buying educational software? You don't get it directly from the company most of the time. You go through a company that's licensed to sell it.

[Tyler Wiethorn] "I don't know how you got away with $14 dollars a license before, but you could never expect that deal could continue."

Again...Know much about educational pricing? ... Why shouldn't we "get away with it"? That's the price Adobe set. If we had had to pay $700+ per seat, the program would have never been offered in the first place.

[Tyler Wiethorn] " If you had the funds to buy an entire classroom worth of Wacom tablets, surely your administration is supportive enough to continue making them functional."

So because they spent $2,400 once they'll spend it again...every year?


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Richard Herd
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 7:30:14 pm

I teach in CTE.

Academic Superstore is the pits. They are very expensive. I go directly to Adobe, where the price is $20/app/computer/month, which is expensive for my school and I don't know how we'll afford Creative Cloud.

Here's how I calculate your fees: $20*20*12=$4,800/year/app.

The terrible part for my school is CTE changed the funding from numbers-based to capstone based. That is, funding is determined by how many students finish the capstone course.

My CTE department just changed from capital allocation budgeting to distributing the cash to the schools once per year, so I can if I choose use Perkins for CC.

We just ordered PrP6 and are having an issue with installing because the Purchasing department used their login to buy the software and my login cannot access it. Adobe is helping us resolve this.

My lab is 7 computers. 5 windows. 2 iMacs. I have 3 more iMacs on order.

I cannot afford Creative Cloud either, unless I charge lab fees. And if I'm spending $5k every year that means I cannot purchase cameras, lighting, costume, makeup...Good bye Adobe.:(


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 7:39:05 pm

Todd -

I think it's time to shop this around - I took a look at reviews for Academic Superstore, and they were almost universally negative - slow delivery, overpriced, hidden charges, surly customer reps...out of 101 reviews, not one was over 1 star out of 5:

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Academic_Superstore

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Todd Stowe
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 8:12:23 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "I think it's time to shop this around"

I have. They are the third company to give me a price and each one was different. This one was actually the cheapest.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 22, 2013 at 8:20:40 pm

And have you gone here, Todd:

http://www.adobe.com/volume-licensing/education.html

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Andy Field
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 5:25:32 am

Academic Pricing too high with the cloud?

Odd that we don't hear the teacher/professors with the same complaint about school textbooks which cost a great deal as well -- yet students pay the price every year (and they are often updated every year or so out-dating the "old" text book)....so to recap - text book prices - ok - Software not.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Todd Stowe
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 10:44:30 am

What are you smoking?

We don't get new textbooks every year. More like every five to ten years. And the students don't pay for them...unless they lose them.

So to recap - what are you smoking?


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Chris Harlan
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 4:01:00 pm

[Todd Stowe] "So to recap - what are you smoking?
"


Chill. He was just thinking about college, not a public High School. Or maybe his reference is a private or prep. school. Not everyone is as familiar with your curriculum as you are.


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Andy Field
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 9:33:29 pm

love being vilified for opinions here!

I missed the "high school" part and assumed we were talking college level. Let Adobe know your feelings -- if they care they'll accommodate - if not - there are other programs out there to teach with and learn. Adobe will quickly lose the defacto software label if they don't listen to their customers.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 12:27:02 pm

really super super super interesting comparisons there Andy, but I think a part of the problem is that, by your comparison, in terms of schoolbooks, the vendor schoolbook price has been increased by 5-600% over a single year? (that was one estimation of CC vs CLP licenses in a long previous thread) It can be difficult for academic institutions to absorb sudden dramatic increases like that.

the sister works in a university - stuff like that is basically like getting financially shot in the head. It's very difficult to figure out how to bandage it on permanently stretched resources.

Unless of course you're suggesting that the university, in the fashion of textbooks, should now push adobe's insanely price hiked educational software costs directly onto the students, in addition to their textbook costs. Yay free market!

Personally, I've got to say that the sight of Adobe basically knocking over and mugging education and charities is about the worst part of this whole new exciting cloud era.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Brooks Tomlinson
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 1:43:52 pm

Andy,
I think you are confusing college level, with high school. Most high schools have a very strapped budget. Alot of the time, they only get the tools to show students the "creative" due to a grant or donation. The fact that Todd even got wacoms for the computers must have been a feat in itself. It showed that he "truly" knows what the professionals use, and wanted to give his kids a head start on the "career field".

I don't understand why you felt like you had to attack him? He came with a very well reasoned, humble plea. This is the cash I have, this is what adobe is now doing to us. He just wanted to share how it is pinching the little guy. If it wasn't for teachers with his mind set, I and several people I know in the industry would have no been as nearly successfully so quickly.

to the Todd's of the world I say Hat's off to you!don't let the Andy's of the world get you down.

Brooks Tomlinson
"I dream in 32bit float"


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Dave LaRonde
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 2:10:04 pm

[Andy Field] "...so to recap - text book prices - ok - Software not."

[Todd Stowe] "What are you smoking? We don't get new textbooks every year. More like every five to ten years..."

Amen to that, brother. Apparently this guy has no clue about Reality At School.
What you teach in your multimedia lab is NOT English, Math, History, Government, Physics, Chemistry or Biology. You're in charge of "Good to take" courses and not "Must-Have" courses.

Sure, you may have made a better choice of a software vendor. Even so, it certainly appears to me that with CC, educational institutions that are forced to throw dimes around like they were manhole covers are taking it in the shorts.

In my mind, Adobe has redefined who is in its customer base, and who is NOT in its customer base any more.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Clint Wardlow
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 5:31:56 pm

I wonder if Adobe is shooting themselves in the foot by making it too expensive for many schools? One of the reasons I think programs like Photoshop or AfterEffects have such a lock in business is that this was what students learned. Adobe was pretty much everywhere in the educational system. If schools start going elsewhere because of price and teaching alternatives, down the road maybe Adobe could stop being the go to software for business because students being hired just haven't learned it.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 6:35:22 pm

"If schools start going elsewhere because of price and teaching alternatives, down the road maybe Adobe could stop being the go to software for business because students being hired just haven't learned it."

I think it would be less ubiquitous than now, particularly among small concerns of almost any kind that currently use it.

I doubt that Adobe will ever lose its cachet among large companies -- again, of any kid -- that currently use it. I still think Adobe is redefining who qualifies as an Adobe customer, and it seems to be cutting out the many smaller players who currently use it.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Clint Wardlow
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 7:31:15 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "I doubt that Adobe will ever lose its cachet among large companies -- again, of any kid -- that currently use it. I still think Adobe is redefining who qualifies as an Adobe customer, and it seems to be cutting out the many smaller players who currently use it."

Again one of the advantages Adobe has had is the relative accessibility of its software despite its price through Schools (and quite frankly pirating). It is not all that difficult for companies, large and small, to find people conversant in many Adobe products who require minimal training.

However, if Adobe loses wide use among new or casual users, this pool might start drying up (not tomorrow, but in the coming years) requiring larger training costs. Also, as those that are starting now eventually rise in positions in the company and have power, they may wean their respective companies to software they learned in school.

I think it is in Adobe's best interest to keep a big presence in education with dirt-cheap pricing for both institutions and students even at the cost of short term profits.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 8:57:10 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I think it is in Adobe's best interest to keep a big presence in education with dirt-cheap pricing for both institutions and students even at the cost of short term profits."

I wholeheartedly agree.

I feel that if Adobe continues down its announced path, it can expect to see a gradual decline in numbers of users.

Horrifyingly, this may be precisely what Adobe intends.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Todd Stowe
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 12:34:29 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "And have you gone here, Todd:

http://www.adobe.com/volume-licensing/education.html"




Joe,

I have.
The EEA license would be $23.22 a seat each month.
Under the CLP license we could get a site license for CS6 for the Master Collection at a little over $13,000 or the Design and Web collection for $8,000.

We can't afford the EEA license and it isn't worth it to go from CS5 to CS6 for $8,000.


We will be using CS5 for a few more years. I hoping by then there will be another alternative.


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Gary Huff
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 23, 2013 at 2:02:34 pm

[Todd Stowe] "We will be using CS5 for a few more years. I hoping by then there will be another alternative."

Where there is will, there can be a way. I would suggest looking now for something to move to down the road. I think it will be doable, from Pixelmator to replace Photoshop, to FCPX to replace Premiere.

I would also suggest perhaps upgrading to CS6? That might buy you some more time if your budget can withstand it. It is a very good upgrade to CS5.


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Gabe Strong
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 24, 2013 at 7:12:38 pm

O come now, surely that is just because the countless satisfied customers of the Academic Superstore don't get online to complain.

In all honesty, I would agree, it's time to shop around. I shopped around myself and found that for 7 months of CC, I could own FCP X and Motion. Shop around indeed.
Unfortunately for Adobe they don't have the monopoly in the video market that they do in other areas of design. Many of us just moved to Adobe, they had a big chance to gain a convert in me. They just lost that chance.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Brett Sherman
Re: It was fun while it lasted
on May 26, 2013 at 12:50:16 pm

Take another look at FCP X. I've been using it 100% for about 3 months now and am loving it. As far as I'm concerned, for documentary or news style production there is nothing better. I'd guess my productivity increased by about 25%. An edit that used to take 8 hrs now takes me about 6 hrs.

It does take some getting used to. But I found after a week I was working just as fast as I was with FCP7. And at $300 for 5 seats plus no licensing headaches, the price can't be beat.



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