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No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?

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Carl Sollenberger
No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 7:08:33 am

Without being able to control when I upgrade, will I find myself unable to use vital plugs with no warning at times?
I am a heavy Trapcode user for example. Will we find at times that Adobe has put out an update that makes our plugs unable to work?
And then we may be un real trouble if we can't afford to update our plug-ins - or worse... updates aren't readily available....
I hope my understanding of this is wrong.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 7:12:29 am

You have complete control over what and when you update. Nothing is installed automatically without your consent. You can also run older releases (eg. CS6) along with CC just fine (as you could with CS5.5 or previous versions).

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jim Wiseman
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 6:52:40 pm

I know you control when you upgrade. That does not change any of the things I said about plug-ins when you do upgrade. You will still have to test them.

Adobe's record of breaking things between upgrades is known, at least to me. I shoot video with my Nikon D7000. It is my main go-to camera when in remote locations, where I often shoot, remote Pacific islands for instance. When Premiere 5.5 came out Nikon video support was broken when it had worked perfectly in 5.0. Nikon files would not play in 5.5. It was not fixed until 6.0 came out. That is a long time to wait for a crucial bug fix. Especially when my main reason to get Premiere in the first place was it's enhanced codec support. I was pointing out that this yet to be seen accelerated release schedule could cause more problems with third party software. I stand by that.

I agree with Greg, however, that the real deal breaker is that I will lose full access to my projects if I ever stop subscribing. That is the real problem, and I see no adequate solution under a subscription model.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Greg Andonian
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 7:20:55 am

[Carl Sollenberger] Without being able to control when I upgrade, will I find myself unable to use vital plugs with no warning at times?

You do have control over upgrades. You'll be notified when one is available, but you can choose not to install it if you don't want to.

A lot of the criticisms over Creative Cloud are based on myths and misconceptions about the service.

However, there ARE real issues with it that are cause for great concern- like how do you access your project files if you stop subscribing...?

______________________________________________
"Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Jim Wiseman
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 9:12:32 am

There are bound to be as many problems with plug-ins as there have been in the past. Probably even more likely as there will not be the same amount of time for developers of plugs to receive pre-releases of the new versions. That is if there really are going to be all of these new updates. I wouldn't want to be the outside developer in this model. Sounds like a royal PITA for them.

"You can always go back to CS6" is a refrain I seem to hear quite often. If you have to go back to CS6, what is the point? What if you start a project in CC Premiere and you find you can't use a necessary plug-in? What about the lack of backward compatibility to CS6? If you can't go backwards, you can't easily get to the plug-in and you've given up the advantages of the new version of the application. Time to re-edit. Could that be a problem? Just asking. Guess you need to thoroughly test all of your plugs before you begin to edit with each new version. That sounds productive.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Frank Gothmann
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 10:42:30 am

I totally disagree with this assessment.
My point was not that you can always go back to CS6 but the point was that you can either stay on your current CC release (ie. there is no auto upgrade) and you will also be able to have access to earlier CC releases if it's a major new version that's coming out.
There will be big version upgrades in the same way we have seen them before, but hopefully lots of smaller improvements in between and pushing them out should be quicker, easier and more economical - especially when it comes to functionality is more specialised and only important to some people.
Small upgrades, bug fixes, little new features are not likely to break anything as they are not likely to change the core of an app.
From what I have read, all the plugs that work with CS6 also work with the upcoming new CC versions and that IS a big upgrade.
The situation with potential plug-in problems is the exactely the same as it is now. I, at one point, had CS5, 5.5 and CS6 installed at the same time without problems.
CC changes nothing in that respect.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Andrew Kimery
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 6:06:13 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Probably even more likely as there will not be the same amount of time for developers of plugs to receive pre-releases of the new versions. That is if there really are going to be all of these new updates. I wouldn't want to be the outside developer in this model. Sounds like a royal PITA for them. "

Apple does not have a publicly set nor predictable schedule of when it rolls out updates to FCPX yet the third party community for FCPX is thriving from what I've heard. I don't see why removing an arbitrary deadline for every app in the suite to meet would hinder development (either internally or w/third parties).




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Simon Ubsdell
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 6:12:23 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Apple does not have a publicly set nor predictable schedule of when it rolls out updates to FCPX yet the third party community for FCPX is thriving from what I've heard."

I'd say from experience that developers for FCP X are generally having less than a smooth ride trying to keep up with the vagaries of Apple's own development of the product - Magic Bullet is an example that a lot os users will be familiar with, but there are others ...

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 7:36:19 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I'd say from experience that developers for FCP X are generally having less than a smooth ride trying to keep up with the vagaries of Apple's own development of the product - Magic Bullet is an example that a lot os users will be familiar with, but there are others ..."

I thought that problem was caused by a bug in FCPX as opposed to Apple's constant updates 'breaking' plugins. Are the issues related to the release schedule or to Apple's notoriously secretive behavior? If Adobe just springs updates on everything then, yeah, I can see it causing problems but that doesn't seem to me like it would be the case.

I mean, I don't take the more frequent updates statement to mean Adobe is going to stop doing its normal beta and QC process. It just means that when an app is ready to get an update it will get that update instead of having to wait around for one specific, arbitrary time in the future when all the apps are forced to update at the same time.




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Todd Kopriva
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 7:47:00 pm

> It just means that when an app is ready to get an update it will get that update instead of having to wait around for one specific, arbitrary time in the future when all the apps are forced to update at the same time.


Exactly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 8:23:16 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I thought that problem was caused by a bug in FCPX as opposed to Apple's constant updates 'breaking' plugins. Are the issues related to the release schedule or to Apple's notoriously secretive behavior? If Adobe just springs updates on everything then, yeah, I can see it causing problems but that doesn't seem to me like it would be the case."

The comment wasn't really anything to do with Adobe, more an observation about what it's like to try and develop plug-ins around the Apple minefield.

FCP X 10.0.8 spectacularly broke a major plug-in I was involved in developing (over a considerable period of now wasted time) - while at the same time fixing an issue on another plug-in we had released.

So it's a bit of a rollercoaster at least as far as the Apple side of things is concerned - you have to take the good with the bad.

Hopefully it will be easier to for developers of Adobe plug-ins (though the CC debacle arguably does give rise to questions about whether the market is set to shrink), but one shouldn't underestimate how much what appears to be a minor update can break things quite dramatically.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Paul Hennell
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 10:54:22 am

As others said, you do control when you upgrade. Cloud updates right now just pester you in the application manager. No need to install while in crucial work, and most updates aren't likely to break anything.

Big releases are different, but Adobe say old versions will stay available on the cloud should you need them, so no need to upgrade to fast. I would have thought this could actually help plug-in support and plug-in writers as, rather then having to suport CS3, 4, 5.5 & 6 (Or whatever variants they can) they only need to support the most recent version as everyone can upgrade.

---
Only in after effects do children get to pick and whip their parents.
http://hennell-online.co.uk


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Todd Kopriva
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 2:12:39 pm

As Paul and Frank have said, you can choose if/when to install new versions. If you're a Creative Cloud subscriber, you'll simply have access to new versions when they're available; you can install whichever versions you want.

Also, nothing changes in this area regarding plug-ins. You only need new plug-ins when the API changes or when a new architecture is introduced (like with the port to 64-bit), which happens rarely. Sometimes, the plug-in makers need to update their installers so that the default installation locations are current, but even then you can typically use the older version and just manually install into the new location.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Carl Sollenberger
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 16, 2013 at 5:34:55 pm

Hey all thanks!
That's great news that I can control my updates.



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Oliver Peters
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 17, 2013 at 1:47:55 am

I think the more concerning question is whether there will be any plug-ins at all over time. If you have to purchase plug-ins for a host that you can't purchase, why would you want to invest in plug-ins?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Taylor
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 17, 2013 at 3:55:43 am

We will probably start renting plugins as well.

JT


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 17, 2013 at 2:58:37 pm

That's already been happening for a while, James - The Foundry is one example of a plugin creator who's doing it:

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/cameratracker/

Of course, I bought camera tracker - but I think the idea of renting higher end plugins which might only be used on a project here and there is a good concept.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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James Taylor
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 17, 2013 at 3:32:49 pm

Yes, definitely a good concept. But i'm glad to see they offer a choice and you could still purchase it. Might be harder for plugin companies that target the pro-sumer crowd.

JT


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: No Control Over Updates = Plug-in Hell?
on May 17, 2013 at 3:40:31 pm

Yeah, James - Adobe could look at the Foundry model, and maybe just make a few shifts, without losing face...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Joseph W. Bourke
Plug-in Hell? Here's Red Giant's take on it...
on May 17, 2013 at 7:11:16 pm

People who are already using Creative Cloud for CS6 are already enjoying our plug-ins. But it get’s better. When then next version of After Effects, Premiere, and Photoshop are released, here’s what you can expect from Red Giant:

•No upgrade cost: As a part of our Red Pledge, you will not need to pay for the updates to the software you’ve already purchased.

•Installers are ready to go and in final QA – that means we have people testing each product thoroughly to make sure you won’t get any surprises.

•From the preliminary tests we’ve already performed, everything seems to be compatible with the next versions of the Adobe host apps, and while we’ve found a few minor bugs, we’re already fixing them.

Cut and pasted from the RG Blog page:

http://www.redgiant.com/blog/

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Plug-in Hell? Here's Red Giant's take on it...
on May 17, 2013 at 7:46:40 pm

@Joseph Simon Ubsdell's opinion is not so sanguine:

>Hopefully it will be easier to for developers of Adobe plug-ins (though the CC debacle arguably does give rise to questions about whether the market is set to shrink), but one shouldn't underestimate how much what appears to be a minor update can break things quite dramatically.<


Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Plug-in Hell? Here's Red Giant's take on it...
on May 17, 2013 at 8:44:56 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Simon Ubsdell's opinion is not so sanguine"

I didn't mean this to sound overly doom-laden but it is a reality that whenever the platform you are developing for updates itself there is the potential for crisis, as Magic Bullet themselves discovered with FCP X - and that was a pretty major unresolved issue for them for quite a while.

I simply meant to point out that rapid development of the host app while seeming to carry benefits for the end-user does entail unforeseeable hazards for the the third party developer - which I guess is pretty self-evident if you think about it.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Plug-in Hell? Here's Red Giant's take on it...
on May 18, 2013 at 1:43:40 am

Thanks, Simon. Well said & understood.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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