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Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe

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Andy Field
Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 8:14:21 pm

http://allbetsareoff.com/2013/05/creative-cloud/

you've seen his great tutorials on the cloud...and even he isn't happy with this.....has great questions with so far no answers from Adobe


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 8:33:18 pm

yeah, that was a great article. He's sincerely even handed, it feels spot on.

And seriously - who can't hear in their head "Hi, I'm Aharon Rabinowitz.." I mean, I know exactly how the man says that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 8:54:53 pm

> great questions with so far no answers from Adobe


We've been talking with Aharon all week.

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 8:56:47 pm

can we have a five year loyalty buyout? is that crazy talk?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:08:56 pm

It's a good request. I'll pass it on to the folks who make the business decisions.

I'm better able to answer questions about how things work, as opposed to responding to implicit (or explicit) requests about business practices or pricing.

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:24:35 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "It's a good request. "

It also has the fabulous effect of completely putting the entire fire out at a single stroke.

you incentivise the entire customer base into the habit of annual (and only annual subscribers) rollover for half a decade.

then when they hit the five year mark, you give them the exact same sense of security we have now with CS6 to move forward again for a whole new cycle - that takes adobe to 2023 with one pit stop. You've just incentivised the hell out of upgrading to CC right now. the draw is nearly unbearable.

its hard to believe you couldn't pull off the same pied piper in 2018 with a five year run up.

I mean, God knows you really know how to make creative software that people want.

All you have to do is believe we're going to stick with you. And you only have to face that once in a decade.
And if you do decide to do this as a company - we bloody well will stick with you.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:33:00 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "I'm better able to answer questions about how things work, as opposed to responding to implicit (or explicit) requests about business practices or pricing."

It's really great that you guys are here to "answer questions", but since the only questions that most people on this forum seem to have the remotest interest in having answered are about the issues you say you are unable to address (see your comment above), you can understand the potential frustration.

All the same, kudos for turning up in the bear pit at all - it can't be pleasant.

Is it possible that corporate Adobe haven't given quite enough thought about how to handle the PR for this very exciting development?

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:41:22 pm

Simon,

Those of use like Kevin and me who help on this forum (and others) are people who design, code, test, document, and provide technical support for this software. We're not sales people or marketing people. So, we can clarify how something works, help you to submit a bug report, collect feedback---but we can't really tell you "why" a specific decision is made or tell you what business decisions will be made in the future. If we did, we'd be guessing.

That said, we have been asked to gather feedback wherever we find it so that the folks who do make the decisions can do so with complete information.

For whatever it's worth, I can say that the feedback that I have brought back from threads like this has been very well received, and I have seen many very productive conversations started about how to alleviate some of the concerns and problems uncovered in the past week since the Creative Cloud announcement.

We'll keep trying to share information as we get it, and we'll keep trying to answer clarifying questions regarding the things that we know... and find someone who does know the answers when we don't.

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Christian Schumacher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 1:51:45 am

[Todd Kopriva] "For whatever it's worth, I can say that the feedback that I have brought back from threads like this has been very well received, and I have seen many very productive conversations started about how to alleviate some of the concerns and problems uncovered in the past week since the Creative Cloud announcement."

Please, make sure you deliver the request to get applications in bundles, as in 3 and 5 apps between the single one and the full pack. By offering these options, and also bringing down the single app pricing, Adobe could expand the Cloud adoption even more rapidly. This is a very common request as we read on the O.P.'s link I’ll have to pay for software I don’t need. section. Besides that big idea of "owning something "after some years, of course! Thanks!


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Tim Dowse
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 7:24:32 pm

Excellent article from Aharon Rabinowitz.

[Aindreas Gallagher] can we have a five year loyalty buyout? is that crazy talk?

[Todd Kopriva] It's a good request. I'll pass it on to the folks who make the business decisions.

Aindreas knows that I think the five year buy out is an awesomely great idea... as close to a win-win as I think any of us can expect...
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/378/977

I understand that some may not like it, but some are considering paying $3.5k for Smoke as an alternative (or $6k if they sign up to 5 years of updates) for goodness sake.

Maybe Adobe could have amazon selling 5-year pre-paid key cards similar to the current one-year version. Even people who want to spend all in one lump will be happy then.

Also, Todd and Kevin, thanks for putting up with all the trash on these forums. You guys are doing an awesome job.


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 7:39:24 pm

[Tim Dowse] "Maybe Adobe could have amazon selling 5-year pre-paid key cards similar to the current one-year version. Even people who want to spend all in one lump will be happy then.

I think that Todd said we are looking into longer subscription periods. That would solve some issues.

Also, Todd and Kevin, thanks for putting up with all the trash on these forums. You guys are doing an awesome job."

You're most welcome. Thanks for the "thumb's up." It's also appreciated.

Best.
Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Tim Dowse
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 7:57:01 pm

[Kevin Monahan] I think that Todd said we are looking into longer subscription periods. That would solve some issues.

That's good... but the loyalty/buy out thing is the key part. I really hope you're looking into that.


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David Lawrence
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 8:05:17 pm

[Tim Dowse] "That's good... but the loyalty/buy out thing is the key part. I really hope you're looking into that."

This ^

The problem isn't subscription cost, it's infinite obligation. Sorry, no sale.

But allow us a fair buy-out and we're all in. Problem solved. Everyone wins.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 12:45:52 am

[Tim Dowse] "Maybe Adobe could have amazon selling 5-year pre-paid key cards similar to the current one-year version. Even people who want to spend all in one lump will be happy then."

Super neat there Tim. But no and I mean genuinely no: with the greatest respect to that punt - it does not answer the problem - this is a fundamental issue. they have to put some kind of good faith marker in the road - at the half decade point, we are begging for the smallest thing really - you are five years in, and three thousand odd dollars in, with half a decade of assets in train, before you are granted a loyalty software archive?

is it actually unreasonable, with that loyalty scheme predicated on uninterrupted year on year rollover to 2018, to provide us, as creatives, some semblance of perceived control over our destiny? Do you actually not like this idea Tim? does this sound unreasonable?

If adobe do not get this, and if guys keep jumping in saying, hey - no probs, lets just pay these really great guys who are on every last forum in the known world... well then this is likely going south.

honest to god - maybe not immediately, or for a few years, but if they ram this - it will literally fundamentally poison the marrow of adobe.

breaking the arm of every last creative across all disciplines is quite a rubicon.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim Dowse
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 2:38:47 am

I'm a little confused, but I think we agree on everything Aindreas. The loyalty idea is absolutely the essential part. Completely reasonable IMHO. And I think we agree on that, right?

I just mentioned the five-year-lump-payment option as an additional thing to appease people who, for whatever reason, want to spend the whole sum in one go. Certainly NOT as an alternative.

That way, only if combined with the loyalty idea, folks would in effect be buying a perpetual license for the software now, plus 5 years of updates. They can assess in five years whether or not they want to keep their subscription going at whatever rate it is then. Hence, as we've both mentioned, Adobe's incentive to keep innovating.

Hope I'm making sense? Hope I'm not completely missing your point.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 6:48:06 pm

Oh right of course - I see, er, I appear to be quite a moron - just really truly don't want to see the issue slip off to just being longer term bulk rental payments.

Everything you said makes, like, complete and total sense there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andy Field
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:03:45 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "We've been talking with Aharon all week."

Great - please talk with the rest of us --

not having access to an After Effects or Premiere Pro file after ending a subscription is a deal killer for many people

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:05:22 pm

> please talk with the rest of us


I've been answering questions on Creative COW, too. What is your question?

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:09:37 pm

me me me. (snot nosed kid raising hand in the air.)

can we have a five year loyalty buyout?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:20:39 pm

Aindreas, I already answered you earlier on this same thread.

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:26:19 pm

fleet fingers sorry. I really am a snot nosed kid with his hand up. I do make an emotive plea above again though. It is an attempt to tug your broad heart strings.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andy Field
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:32:04 pm

Todd thanks for the quick response.

1 this is coming from someone who LOVES your software - and uses it every day

2 - am already a cloud member (to get extra licenses for extra work stations at our production company and supplement the perpetual license of cs6

3 - the question - going forward - is that the finished video products are not the only thing that we've created - the underlying project file as well - there seems to be no good answer other than put more money in the meter if you want to access it after you end a CC subscription...is that correct?

and finally - We all have a vested interest in Adobe surviving and thriving -- but if this complete move to CC doesn't work out as you expect - is there thought to doing a split as it exists now -- perpetual licenses AND cloud?

Thanks

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Todd Kopriva
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 9:54:22 pm

Andy,

Regarding your point 3, where the question was: If you stop subscribing to the Creative Cloud service, you will need to take one of the following actions to open your project:

- Subscribe again for a month to re-activate the current version of After Effects.
- Use the free 30-day trial version (which is fully functional) of the current version of After Effects.
- Use a perpetually licensed copy of After Effects CS6. (This presumes that you saved your project backward using the Save A Copy As CS6 command before you let your subscription lapse.)

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Jim Wiseman
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 10:11:19 pm

A five year buy in may sound OK to someone who is just starting out or in mid career. I am not. But I have been loyally purchasing Adobe products since v 1.0 of Photoshop. I don't see a five year plan as changing my mind. Let the two models compete and see which one wins. I prefer the perpetual license benchmark release to any form of subscription, and would have continued it with every release. i would like the new features. I just don't have the trust factor in any large corporation to have my personal interests at heart. Without the ability to have guaranteed access to my files, CC is a non starter. It will be up to me to keep the computers running that can handle CS6. I can do that.

Nothing personal to the great people at Adobe who show up here and deal with the problems created by their bosses.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 10:33:15 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Let the two models compete and see which one wins."

then isn't the best basic option to organise? Adobe have a six month window to hit 1.25 million subscribers. I'll keep saying this but: given they've put their reputation chips on the table with their major shareholders, (who were previously sold a flash hegemony pipe dream by the CEO), given they have stated that they would hit this yardstick - missing it by a reasonably decent margin would be a concrete problem for the board and CEO who determined this course.

They have publicly stated CC is the only course moving forward.

If the customers consciously organise, and withhold through the holidays, which should be feasible, at least to the extent of missing the target by a fairly serious margin, then adobe might be forced to address the situation. If the target could be kept under a million that might do it. That's adobe missing the mark by about 30%.

if you were going to discuss this prospect of collective action.... maybe #adobe2014 might be a moniker? it's important that there is a clear customer response in the end.

if its worth anything, I'll bang up a tumblr for this over the weekend to outline the pitch -sure no harm right?

major shareholders might begin to ask adobe serious questions about the reputation damage to the brand at that point. not to mention calling into question the 2015 - 4 million subscriber outlook.

basically get them on the wrack a little? and sure see what can be gotten after that? Or we can just keep chatting to Dennis, Kevin, Ted and the guys.
(Who are on a speak no evil nightmare mission.)

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shawn Miller
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 10:23:00 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "- Use the free 30-day trial version (which is fully functional) of the "

Quick question about that. Can I only do this once? Say I use the 30 day trial to open a post CS6 file, will I be able to install CCx again after the trial expires, or will that machine be prohibited from running trial CC applications again?

Thanks,

Shawn



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Todd Kopriva
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 10:30:39 pm

Currently, the trial version is limited to only activating once per computer. There is some discussion about what the best policy is going forward---i.e., whether that should be reset to allow for a tryout of each major version.

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Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
After Effects quality engineering
After Effects team blog
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Shawn Miller
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 10:45:26 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "Currently, the trial version is limited to only activating once per computer. There is some discussion about what the best policy is going forward---i.e., whether that should be reset to allow for a tryout of each major version."

Thanks Todd,

Good to know. It just occurred to me that what I really want (if I can't have a perpetual license) is a CC project file reader/exporter. Something (free) that allows me to browse, open and render out from CC project files... maybe the limitation could be that the project contents are locked, but rendering out new files from old projects is still possible... maybe a lite version AME could accomplish this? I don't know, may need some more thought.

Shawn



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John Rofrano
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 10:47:24 pm

If you are looking for feedback here's mine: I currently own CS6. I have no intention of purchasing Creative Cloud without an option for a perpetual license if I decide to leave. To do anything else would be suicide to allow Adobe hold me hostage in order to use my own project files. I'll continue to use CS6 until it no longer works and then I will look for alternative software. I will not now, nor never will purchase a service that disables my ability to work with my projects if I no longer have the ability to pay.

What if the economy goes bad again? (Did it ever really get better?) I won't have the option of not renewing my software to save money because will be locked in and need it to conduct business. This takes away a lever for me to keep my costs down. Mobile Phone companies are moving away from locking people into contacts as a competitive advantage and here Adobe is trying to lock you in. I have to be able to continue to access my projects even if I no longer have the ability or willingness to pay. This need's to be fixed before I will buy in.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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David Mathis
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 5:10:54 am

[John Rofrano] "Mobile Phone companies are moving away from locking people into contacts as a competitive advantage and here Adobe is trying to lock you in. I have to be able to continue to access my projects even if I no longer have the ability or willingness to pay. This need's to be fixed before I will buy in."

Excellent point! Like others I do not trust any large company who decides what is "best" for me. I would be more than happy to upgrade every year to a new suite or individual application based on current need.

Todd, Kevin and Tom have done an excellent job of answering our questions about technical issues and product features. I very much appreciate their time and effort.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 2:45:46 pm

There have been a lot of reasons offered why people don't like the specter of losing perpetual access to their project files under the new model. Has this one been mentioned?

Dennis Raedke (sp?) of Adobe has made the point that people make their money off the deliverables of their projects, and argues that they are the real value of the work.

However, a project file also contains value. It represents the work an individual puts into the deliverables. In some cases it may not be much, but in others it is a very great amount indeed. A project file constitutes the LABOR put into the project.

There are several instances where one's LABOR can be modified. For example, you can tune up a car engine, and if you're unhappy with the result, you can re-tune it. Six months later, you can do it again.

A project file is like that car engine. People heretofore have treated project files as such, but didn't have to invent metaphors for them.

I believe one of Murphy's Laws states, "If something can go wrong, it will." You could be in a severe accident, be in a coma for six months, accumulate oceans of medical debt, and when you snap out of the coma, one of your few remaining clients wants to revisit a project completed just before the accident. Hey, it could happen.

But you're up to your ears in debt! You can barely afford groceries, utilities and rent. A lucrative payday looms, but your credit card is maxed out. You can't open your CC project file. You have lost your LABOR, as the model currently stands.

The loss of one's LABOR -- and its apparently-unanticipated implications -- is something Adobe most certainly has to address.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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John Rofrano
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 8:11:42 pm

[David Mathis] "I would be more than happy to upgrade every year to a new suite or individual application based on current need."
Yea, and I don't want to be misunderstood. I would more than happy to pay every month to use the Creative Cloud and get all of the benefits of having the latest new features. I just want an option to hold on to the last version that I used should I decide to quit. So if after 10 years of paying for Creative Cloud I retire and I decide to do charity work, I can continue to use the last version without updates just like I do now with CS6.
[Dave LaRonde] "The loss of one's LABOR -- and its apparently-unanticipated implications -- is something Adobe most certainly has to address."
Your example of coming back six months later is a good one. What if I decide to change tool sets? So now I'm using some other tool and I stop paying Adobe for Creative Cloud and a client comes back six months later and wants a change made. Now I have to pay Adobe to use Creative Cloud for one month to make a 1 hour change in the project and re-render. That's outrageous and that's what I object to. I don't want to be held hostage to a company in the future because I used their software in the past. Granted you might say Adobe shouldn't care what happens to customers who leave but as a customer I care a lot and I won't go down that road if there is a cliff at the end.

Adobe should do exactly what they did with CS2 when they didn't want to manage the license authorization servers anymore. They gave every CS2 customer a version that didn't require authorization and I applaud them for that bold move. What I'd like to see for Creative Cloud is a way to keep using the last version you have even after you leave. Obviously this couldn't be done after only paying for one month so it might only be available to customer who pay for a year or two but some way to allow us to buy the last version we used and continue to use it.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Tim Dowse
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 8:22:13 pm

[John Rofrano] What I'd like to see for Creative Cloud is a way to keep using the last version you have even after you leave. Obviously this couldn't be done after only paying for one month so it might only be available to customer who pay for a year or two but some way to allow us to buy the last version we used and continue to use it.

I think you might be expecting a bit much to retain the last version after just one year, when Adobe has only got $600 from you. Considering how much the CS6 Master Collection retails at, you've got to expect to cough up a bit more (hence my 5-year suggestion).

But the crucial part is whether or not they offer something like this - the precise time-frame is a detail.

Of course, if they release subscriptions to function-specific application groups (eg. prod premium), which I think they should, then obviously the price for that cluster would be cheaper over the same loyalty time period.


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John Rofrano
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 10:57:08 am

[Tim Dowse] "I think you might be expecting a bit much to retain the last version after just one year, when Adobe has only got $600 from you. Considering how much the CS6 Master Collection retails at, you've got to expect to cough up a bit more (hence my 5-year suggestion). "
I disagree because I don't want Master Collection! I don't use everything in Master Collection. That's the other problem of making me pay for things I don't want or need. I did say "a year or two" in my post which would be $600 - $1200. 5 years is too much. That would mean that I'd have to pay $3,000 before I can keep using the software. At that point I'll stay with CS6 Production Premium which I now have, or else I'll move on to some other software. But I do agree with your next point...
[Tim Dowse] "Of course, if they release subscriptions to function-specific application groups (eg. prod premium), which I think they should, then obviously the price for that cluster would be cheaper over the same loyalty time period."
Yes, that's where Adobe has it wrong, IMHO. Thinking that there is one cloud offering and everything is in it and you pay for everything whether you need it or not is part of the problem. I'm a video editor. I don't need inDesign. I don't need Dreamweaver. I don't need Fireworks. Don't make me pay for these things that I don't need and tell me what a "deal" I am getting. I'm not getting any deal at all. I'm paying the same $600 that I would pay every year to upgrade Creative Suite Production Premium for the past 6 years and I'm getting less because when I stop paying I can't access my projects anymore. That's not a "deal". That's "extortion"! (i.e., you keep paying or you don't work) That is what people are reacting negatively too. This is not "deal" for people who don't use Master Collection. It's the same price with less longevity and no way to skip a version and save $600 in the years when either business is down or you don't feel that the new features are worth the money. I may not need the new features.

BTW, for those like me who only buy every other version because I often don't feel that there are enough new features every year to justify the price, Creative Cloud is twice as expensive. Let's say it cost approximately $600 to upgrade to CS2 and $600 to upgrade to CS4 and $600 to upgrade to CS6 so you would paid $1,800 for Creative Suite over the past 6 years if you skipped every other version. If you were using Creative Cloud it would have cost you $3,600. That's not a deal. That's taking away my freedom to choose if something is worth the money. I shouldn't have to pay for features or software that I don't need or want.

Here's what I object to:

I applaud Adobe for making this bold move. I believe in cloud computing. I agree that the right approach was to start simple and have one offering and see how it is accepted instead of having multiple possible confusing offerings. I get it. But I hope that they are listening to customer feedback and realizing that one size does not fit all, and subscriptions are great for "services" but it doesn't work as well with "tools" because craftsmen typically like to "own" their tools (as much as you can "own" software). In fact, getting your own set of tools is a pretty big thing for most craftsmen. It enables you to be independent to work. Adobe wants to take this independence away and that is what I reject.

Consider this:

What Adobe has done is equivalent to having Ford or General Motors declare that that they no longer sell cars; they only lease them. Think about that for a moment. From now on, you have to pay a monthly rental to lease a Ford or GM car because you can't own it. Let's say every two years you get an upgrade but if you are out of work and can't afford to pay the rental you have no car to go out and find a job. That is *EXACTLY* what Adobe has done here. The people who lease their cars would love the idea, and the people like me who have never leased a car (...and drive an 11 year old Subaru ;-) ) would hate it and buy a Honda or Toyota or Subaru so that they can own it. This is what it has come down to. Adobe needs to realize that all car drivers do not like to lease their cars and all video editors do like like to subscribe to their software. It's as simple as that. Even car companies lease with an option to buy. Computer giant's like IBM lease computers with an option buy. Adobe needs to lease with an option to buy. They need to be flexible or loose business.

One last thing:

Allow me to comment on one last reason why I don't like the Creative Cloud idea because it pertains to why I only upgrade every other release. Aharon said that with the old model, Adobe has to spend time convincing customers that the new features they've added are worth the price of the upgrade and now they won't have to do that anymore. That is a scary thought. This is how companies get complacent. Now the new features don't have to attract customers because the customer are already captive. That is bad for customers plain and simple. If I didn't think that the new features were worth upgrading every year than guess what... neither is Creative Cloud worth it. There is no magic here people. They are going to "polish the nose cone" on Photoshop and maybe add one major feature and if it's not a feature that you need, too bad... you are paying for it anyway! That doesn't make me happy to fork over another $600 subscription for another year.

As I said, the Creative Cloud is currently twice as expensive for those of us who only update Creative Suite Production Premium every other release because there are not enough new features to warrant the $600 upgrade fee. The Creative Cloud will be no different. You probably still won't think that the new features are worth an annual subscription fee except that you have no choice but to pay the $600 every year forever, and ever, and ever.... and that story, boys and girls, doesn't end in "Happily ever after" for me.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Tim Dowse
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 1:57:43 pm

All very valid objects to the subscription model. The fact that so many people object to a perpetual lease is why I've been touting a loyalty scheme as a compromise.

But, here's what isn't going to happen:

Adobe return to their old model, apologizing like a husband who has cheated on his wife, and is begging to be allowed to return home.

I think if, and it's a big if, they offer some concessions, it will only be in the form of a compromise. I think a loyalty buy-out is a good compromise, but I think you can expect to pay more than the price of a CS upgrade for it - they just won't back down as far as offering perpetual licenses for $600 IMHO, regardless of how much you used to pay for upgrades.

If you think you can go and get a competing software package that suits your needs for a better price, then of course you should do that. For me, I think even $3k, for an in effect perpetual license (i.e. five-year subscription with loyalty opt-out option), still makes Adobe's offering outstanding. If they start to offer prod premium packages for say $35 a month, then it makes it a steal at $2.1k


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 7:06:56 pm

[Tim Dowse] "Adobe return to their old model, apologizing like a husband who has cheated on his wife, and is begging to be allowed to return home.
"


Indeed - snowball: meet hell.


[Tim Dowse] "I think a loyalty buy-out is a good compromise, but I think you can expect to pay more than the price of a CS upgrade for it - they just won't back down as far as offering perpetual licenses for $600 IMHO, regardless of how much you used to pay for upgrades.

If you think you can go and get a competing software package that suits your needs for a better price, then of course you should do that. For me, I think even $3k, for an in effect perpetual license (i.e. five-year subscription with loyalty opt-out option), still makes Adobe's offering outstanding. If they start to offer prod premium packages for say $35 a month, then it makes it a steal at $2.1k
"


this - it really is deeply reasonable, although I'd probably do it in a sequence of 5x600 because I manage money like a moron.

this is accepting a major change relative to the old relationship - its basically just asking for the sanity of knowing that at a given point, you feel software security - at one pitstop in a decade.

If adobe feel that is beyond them, you would really have to wonder what the hell is going on.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 7:58:01 pm

@ Tim Dowse: Coca Cola went back on New Coke. Avid went back on no Macs, only PC's. What made them do it? People didn't buy in. They didn't like it and they refused to be steamrolled. What we need here is a little backbone. No form of subscription makes sense to the long term user who cares about his legacy, his access to his work.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.3, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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David Lawrence
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 9:06:06 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "@ Tim Dowse: Coca Cola went back on New Coke. Avid went back on no Macs, only PC's. What made them do it? People didn't buy in. They didn't like it and they refused to be steamrolled. What we need here is a little backbone. No form of subscription makes sense to the long term user who cares about his legacy, his access to his work."

Well said. No customers = failed business model = change or go out of business.

Customers have the ultimate power and CS6 is a very mature and capable package.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 16, 2013 at 11:41:00 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "Dennis Raedke (sp?) of Adobe has made the point that people make their money off the deliverables of their projects,"

yes, Dennis wasn't particularly in the vicinity of the truth there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 3:47:02 pm

From my experience, Dennis was right on the money - in the 30 odd years I've been working in television, I have never once sent out the original project - I've been paid in entirety for the project on tape, the AVI file output from Edit*, AVID, or PPro, or the Quicktime .mov or mpeg-4 file sent to the client.

I know what you're getting at, but never once, ever, have I sent the raw stock, or the EDL, or the .aep, or the Premiere Pro file. Never...payment was for the deliverables, which were just the media, analogue, or digital...

That said, and I'm feeling like a broken record here, I own the CS6 Master Collection, so I'm in a good position to sit, wait, and see how this all shakes out. I'm really on your side, but I don't feel it necessary to choose sides in this discussion.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 4:49:18 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "...in the 30 odd years I've been working in television, I have never once sent out the original project..."

You were at a station for a long time, right, Joe? I'll bet you did work for the promotion department.

As promo guy myself, I had one client only: the station. I know I was ALWAYS revisiting old AE project files, modifying them, and saving the new versions: the graphics package doesn't often change, but you can certainly use the bits & pieces within it to change the look. No sense reinventing major portions of the wheel when you've gone through all the trouble to import everything you need.

Sure, the footage created in various applications represents the delivered product, but those project files represented a huge investment in time and effort. Even the slightest chance that you could lose access to them is a disaster waiting to happen.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breathes Adobe
on May 17, 2013 at 7:17:13 pm

Actually no, Dave - for 9 of the 14 years I worked for Production, Promotions, and News, not necessarily in that order. When News wanted something, I jumped. But the bulk of my day to day work was commercial production for a long time. That changed over time, and I was ultimately working for the Promotions department in the last few years, but of course, that was driven by News.

I'm absolutely with you on the need to have access to old projects - I set up the tracking system at our station in Bridge, as well as the folder structure of our network Graphics drives. I could go back in and put my hands on a project I'd worked on four years ago, and have it up and running in no time! As a freelancer now, I'm not yet running into the need to go back much over a couple of months (yet), but I save and archive everything as if I will need it. As a result of it, my Drobo is getting full...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Good Questions from a guy who lives and breaths Adobe
on May 15, 2013 at 10:37:11 pm

Excellent breakdown.


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