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Is the debate over?

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Steve Connor
Is the debate over?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 2:58:01 pm

Sure is quiet in here, are we done?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is the debate over?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 5:05:19 pm

Oh, come on! This is the COW. There's nothing we can't argue about! :)

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Florian Sepp
Re: Is the debate over?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 10:09:28 pm

everything is said. People made their decissions. As long as there is no real competition time runs for adobe. Nothing left to discuss.

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 10:46:14 pm

[Steve Connor] "Sure is quiet in here, are we done?"

Yes, the doomsayers were wrong, Adobe is still here and going strong despite the predictions of users leaving en masse. Clearly any and all future predictions by said individuals aren't worth the paper they're written on.


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David Mathis
Re: Is the debate over?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 2:32:27 am

Looks that way. I think after NAB, there will be some debate just not on the same level. Kind of like when FCP X came about, now all is mainly calm. Yes, there is that camp who claims it is still a "toy".

Unless there is a big price spike or stuff getting dropped unlikely we shall see the likes of angry villagers.


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Steve Connor
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 7:14:44 pm

Could the last person out please switch of the lights?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 2, 2016 at 9:34:51 pm

My lights are on. Not using any Adobe products other than CS6 Photoshop rarely. Much more often Affinity Photo. FCPX and Motion mostly, Resolve 12 looking very good. Media 100 for some documentaries. All on Yosemite, but they are all El Capitan approved. Premiere not at all. And I still control my credit card.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 3, 2016 at 3:39:32 am

[Jim Wiseman] "And I still control my credit card."

Well, except for all those other monthly payments you're making that you deem more necessary than a great set of tools that you can make stuff with.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 4, 2016 at 8:23:23 am

I'm making no monthly payments except for the New York Times, Washington Post and my utilities. None of which my art or career are tied to.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Steve Connor
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 4, 2016 at 10:59:03 am

[Jim Wiseman] "I'm making no monthly payments except for the New York Times, Washington Post and my utilities. None of which my art or career are tied to.
"


Without power your art or career may be a little more difficult?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 6, 2016 at 4:49:07 pm

AC power doesn't have versions. ~120V, 60hz, USA. Hasn't changed since we abandoned Edison's DC. Also, without it, my food would spoil and I couldn't use the oven or see at night. So my career is safe due to multiple usages. Also the power and water companies don't have my credit card on auto pay. I write a check if I want it.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 8, 2016 at 5:17:37 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Also the power and water companies don't have my credit card on auto pay. I write a check if I want it."

Mine do. You know how many issues I've had with that? None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. And it saves a tremendous amount of time. But I guess if your time isn't that valuable to you, then have at it.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 9, 2016 at 4:48:00 am

I pay many bills by credit card and the internet, Gary. I just don't tie up my life's work with a contract to pay monthly forever in order to have access to my work. The payment by check is merely to illustrate that I still control the flow of money from my bank account. There is a great deal of difference between utilities, like water and electric, essentials with no emotional or creative attachment, and access to one's creative projects with forced payment for that access. No more Adobe here other than those on a permanent license (darn few). CS6 Photoshop will do for quite a while.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 9, 2016 at 1:07:57 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "and access to one's creative projects"

I have access to all of my creative projects without having to open a single app. It's called a Master Render File.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 11, 2016 at 1:08:04 am

Final renders work for commercial projects, Gary, not for what I and many people do. We actually rework things. Like on a canvas.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 12, 2016 at 11:37:33 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Gary, not for what I and many people do. We actually rework things. Like on a canvas."

If you did it right the first time, you wouldn't have to keep going back to fix things.


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David Lawrence
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 14, 2016 at 5:17:42 pm

[Gary Huff] "If you did it right the first time, you wouldn't have to keep going back to fix things."

Art doesn't work like that Gary, lol!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research

linkedIn: http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
vimeo: vimeo.com/album/2271696
web: propaganda.com
facebook: /dlawrence
twitter: @dhl


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Tim Wilson
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 14, 2016 at 7:58:20 pm

[David Lawrence] "Art doesn't work like that Gary, lol!
"


Neither do clients. LOL

I'm obvs a fan of Creative Cloud and its associated business model personally, but I'm also down with the idea that if your business model includes remonetizing assets that include project files, the problem is less monthly subscriptions than the inability to freeze system configs.

One hopes that as we evolve, enthusiasm doesn't preclude empathy.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 14, 2016 at 8:23:21 pm

[Tim Wilson] "the problem is less monthly subscriptions than the inability to freeze system configs."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but what prevents CC users from freezing system configs?


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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 22, 2016 at 12:48:28 pm

[Tim Wilson] "the problem is less monthly subscriptions than the inability to freeze system configs."

I completely agree with this, and yet I do believe we have heard that there is a gaggle of frozen systems sitting taking up space.

At the same time, having migrated projects from different NLEs (yes, it's not perfect and, yes, you have to redo some things, but it is possible) means that you don't have to have three different generations of Macs/PCs always sitting around that do nothing except for that one project you boot up once a year.

What I hear are people who learned one way of doing things, and gosh darn it, that's the way it will always be done. No matter if it's not the most efficient either.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 22, 2016 at 9:01:57 pm

[Gary Huff] "I completely agree with this, and yet I do believe we have heard that there is a gaggle of frozen systems sitting taking up space."

But you can freeze a system config with Adobe. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you and Tim mean by freezing a system?


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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 23, 2016 at 1:03:07 am

[Andrew Kimery] "But you can freeze a system config with Adobe. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you and Tim mean by freezing a system?"

I think he was referring to really old systems, the kind where you need to keep like Premiere CS3 and Windows XP or OSX Leopard (or even older).


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Tim Wilson
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 23, 2016 at 7:33:31 am

[Gary Huff] "I think he was referring to really old systems, the kind where you need to keep like Premiere CS3 and Windows XP or OSX Leopard (or even older)."

Or Media 100 (one of Jim W's examples) on OS 9, or whatever else.

So, say I've got a CC 2016 project. I stop subscribing. That means no more freezing, because when I show back up 5 years later because I have the chance to remonetize assets, I can no longer subscribe to CC 2016. I can ONLY get CC 2021.

Except maybe CC 2021 won't open the project right. Or maybe not all of my plug-ins work right anymore. Or aren't compatible with CC 2021, so I have to update all of those too.

Maybe I can't even launch CC 2021 because my OS is out of date, and I can't install the newest OS on my old machine.

All of this is theoretical of course. Maybe none of that will happen. But it certainly might. Microsoft is very good at backwards compatibility, but Apple burns down its customers for its own amusement. LOL It's not at ALL uncommon for new Mac OSes to be uninstallable on appallingly recent boxes.

And who knows? Maybe in 2021 I COULD be able to subscribe to CS 2016 again.

BUT, if I have CS 6 that I bought in 2013 when I got nervous about this subscription stuff, and it works with my OS National Park OS on my Mac Pro shaped like a Torus (which is also the shape of Apple's new HQ!), and I decide not to update those systems because they're still working, or because I know that I have irreplaceable art there that I can't risk losing access to -- well, the stuff that worked in 2013 will still work in The Year 2525.

Assuming of course that man is still alive, that woman can survive.

AND I won't have had to pay anything to "stay current," because "staying current" was the OPPOSITE of my goal. My entire business model, and more important, my entire CREATIVE model DEMANDS that I NEVER upgrade my system, because upgrading risks hastening the end of both business and art as I know them.

I'm saying "I" rhetorically of course. I'm an ardent, nay, an adamant fan of subscriptions in general. I started having so much fun with CC subscription that I converted as much of my older software to subscriptions as I possibly could. Heck, that includes MS Office. It works for me financially, and I don't want to see another install disk for as long as I live. I don't ever want to have to think about upgrades ever again. Give me all my software in the cloud, give me every update when it's ready, and I'll let you know when I change credit cards.

I also often speak here and in The Other Debate forum from my previous position as a software corporate weasel. If I was inside Adobe in some conference room where we were hashing this out, I'd have said, "It's insane to build a business model that accommodates people not paying us. Actually, literally, insane. Are you insane? No? Good. I didn't think so. So we're doing this. And because it's the right thing for us to do, we're doing it now."

But in my current guise, blended with my pre-corporate weasel days when I likewise re-monetized assets (some on TAPE -- I won't even tell you how long I kept a 3/4" deck on hand for masters that I made in 1978; don't get me started on the fragility of digital archives) -- I'm also empathetic to Jim, David, and others who have built entire careers on having unfettered access to the entirety of their creative output. There's simply no way to stay current and do that.

Okay. I think I've spent enough time arguing for a position I don't hold LOL but it does bug me when people try to wave it off as if these guys are just making this shit up. They're not.

Zager & Evans should have the last word. And at least from me, they shall.








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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 23, 2016 at 1:17:22 pm

[Tim Wilson] "
So, say I've got a CC 2016 project. I stop subscribing. That means no more freezing, because when I show back up 5 years later because I have the chance to remonetize assets, I can no longer subscribe to CC 2016. I can ONLY get CC 2021.
"


Well, so far Adobe has said that you will be able to go back to CS6 for the foreseeable future, so I would assume you can install the 2016 versions.

[Tim Wilson] "And who knows? Maybe in 2021 I COULD be able to subscribe to CS 2016 again. "

I think you can, but the computers of 2021 probably won't be able to sun OSX El Capitan with CS 2016 anyway, so your only solution is to keep laptops from different periods laying around? Good if you can afford the space, I guess. Seems like a waste to me. I would much rather mark off important projects and prep them for moving to other NLEs, or at least render out the stems (along with the original footage).

[Tim Wilson] "AND I won't have had to pay anything to "stay current," because "staying current" was the OPPOSITE of my goal. My entire business model, and more important, my entire CREATIVE model DEMANDS that I NEVER upgrade my system, because upgrading risks hastening the end of both business and art as I know them."


That reads as incredibly facetious... ;-)

[Tim Wilson] " I'm also empathetic to Jim, David, and others who have built entire careers on having unfettered access to the entirety of their creative output. There's simply no way to stay current and do that."

Because they don't either want to do the work or have the know how in order to keep themselves from being restricted by old technology that they may not be able to access. Case in point, just because you freeze a system means nothing. Let's say I freeze my current laptop in time for a project and need to come back to it in five years. There is no guarantee that my laptop will actually boot in five years from now, even if completely untouched.

Then what?

I have very old projects I can still access, even all the way back to MiniDV and edited on Media 100 on a PowerMac G4. I don't have a PowerMac G4 or a MiniDV tape deck or a copy of Media 100...but it was important to me to make sure I migrated the material. Hell, I had a project from Premiere CS3 that had the H.264s from a Canon 60D transcoded to Cineform. I still had kept that original footage, but everything, from the edit to the actual color correction, was done with those Cineform files. I have no idea how easy it will be to access Cineform, and I wanted the project to be less reliant on third-party software that had already been sold once, so I manually converted from CS3 to CC and replaced the Cineform .AVI with the original H.264 .MOVs and re-colored the clips to match using Premiere's built-in tools.

Why?

Because it was important to me to do so. And it wasn't so bad 2 years ago when I did that, but as we move further into the future, that gets harder and harder.

But, man, I feel like there are some here who wouldn't even know where to start if they wanted to do that, and would probably feel like, "Well, that's how it was done in the past, and that's the way it has to be." and that's not my attitude at all. I value my floorspace and don't want old gear hanging around for that "what if?" scenario that can lead to a perpetually gear-stacked office.


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David Lawrence
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 23, 2016 at 9:16:18 pm

[Gary Huff] "Because they don't either want to do the work or have the know how in order to keep themselves from being restricted by old technology that they may not be able to access. Case in point, just because you freeze a system means nothing. Let's say I freeze my current laptop in time for a project and need to come back to it in five years. There is no guarantee that my laptop will actually boot in five years from now, even if completely untouched. "

Sigh.

Sorry Gary, that's complete BS. Trust me, I know how to migrate projects to keep them current and have done so many times when necessary. I'm sure that's true for the other guys as well. Btw, I can also boot my Apple //e and run the software I wrote for it in 1985 (and it really doesn't take up that much space). System freezing vs. updating are two different archival strategies and both have their place.

The bigger point is that some of us simply want a choice in the matter. I don't want to be forced to pay a corporation in perpetuity for the privilege of opening my files.

In the fine art world, digitally-based artists have a very different perspective on Adobe's forced subscription business model than you find in the day-rate driven business side of the industry. Believe me, they're not impressed and they're not getting on the cloud.

I'm glad renting software works for you. But please don't assume that those of us for whom it doesn't are stubborn or lazy. We're not. It's about something more important than just the money. It's about ownership - of our tools and our work.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research

linkedIn: http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
vimeo: vimeo.com/album/2271696
web: propaganda.com
facebook: /dlawrence
twitter: @dhl


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Gary Huff
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 24, 2016 at 4:22:05 am

[David Lawrence] "I know how to migrate projects to keep them current and have done so many times when necessary."

So...it's not B.S. then.

[David Lawrence] "Btw, I can also boot my Apple //e and run the software I wrote for it in 1985 (and it really doesn't take up that much space). "

Congratulations. So your example means..what? That your particular Apple IIe still runs? I'm sure that's applicable to most Apple IIe and other outdated hardware, or something. Not quite sure what your anecdote was supposed to mean in an applicable sense.

[David Lawrence] "System freezing vs. updating are two different archival strategies and both have their place.
"


True. For instance, one is hoping that hardware still works, while the other doesn't leave it to chance. Here's an example. But I guess you can email Vint Cerf and let him know that your Apple IIe is still running just fine and so this isn't a problem?

[David Lawrence] "The bigger point is that some of us simply want a choice in the matter."

Of course, that's perfectly fine. People have weird hangups all the time and should be free to have them.

[David Lawrence] "I don't want to be forced to pay a corporation in perpetuity for the privilege of opening my project files."

FTFY

[David Lawrence] "In the fine art world, digitally-based artists have a very different perspective on Adobe's forced subscription business model than you find in the day-rate driven business side of the industry."

Yes, I am sure every single one of them is in lock-step with your opinion.

[David Lawrence] " Believe me, they're not impressed and they're not getting on the cloud."

So now we are down to such a nebulous group as "digital fine art"...Mmmmkay, I guess you have to keep adjusting the groups not getting on the cloud as more and more do.

[David Lawrence] ". But please don't assume that those of us for whom it doesn't are stubborn or lazy."

I don't. I assume that those of you who don't simply because you cannot figure out how you can protect yourself against some eventual unsubscription are.

As a subscriber, I know what projects and how to prep if I ever decide to cancel. No different than needing to port something over to FCXP or Resolve for any other reason. What I object to is this nonsense notion that it's not possible.

I am not worried about "access to my creative projects" or being "forced to pay a corporation in perpetuity for the privilege of opening my files." because I can circumvent that easily. I'm sorry if you can't.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 23, 2016 at 3:42:06 pm

[Tim Wilson] "So, say I've got a CC 2016 project. I stop subscribing. That means no more freezing, because when I show back up 5 years later because I have the chance to remonetize assets, I can no longer subscribe to CC 2016. I can ONLY get CC 2021."

Interesting thought Tim. You could still have CC2016 installed but whether or not your CC account would recognize it as valid is a different question. With that being said though, I think it was just a year or two ago that Adobe finally took the activation servers for CS2(?) offline (and subsequently emailed out a new serial number that didn't need to be verified remotely) to all CS2 owners.


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David Mathis
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 3, 2016 at 7:50:53 pm

My lights are on as well. The only thing that is the hardest to replace is After Effects, not sure I would consider Motion as a replacement for heavy lifting. Fusion is a nice tool but is node based, not sure it is a good fit for long form motion graphics. Single shot type of thing, no problem there.

I have considered Premiere Pro on occasion and might jump in with both feet. Sitting here I would prefer roles for prep work when it comes to audio post. Looking at adding Pro Tools shortly.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 6, 2016 at 4:14:44 pm

And AE was written by COSA (still have my copy) and bought by Adobe. Flash from Macromedia (I was their Authorware dealer in Hawaii), they killed Freehand, better than Illustrator after they grabbed Macromedia. Wonderful inventive company. Wouldn't even exist if Apple hadn't invented the Mac and the Laserwriter. And Aldus Pagemaker.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 6, 2016 at 5:23:21 pm
Last Edited By Joseph W. Bourke on Mar 6, 2016 at 5:26:28 pm

And of course Apple "inventing" the Mac gives no tip of the hat to Xerox PARC, which already had the Alto, running the first WYSIWIG interface and using a mouse for control.

As Jobs said, rather disingenuously, "We didn't steal a single line of code". But he walked out with the overall concept in his head. Then came back to pilfer the software. The Xerox PARC executives had no idea what they were giving away by letting Jobs in the door, but one of their chief researchers, Adele Goldberg, refused Jobs' second visit, at which he demanded a demo of their Smalltalk software for the Apple programmers. Her refusal was overridden by the exutives, who didn't get the consequences of letting Jobs in for the second, more critical, visit.

http://www.mac-history.net/computer-history/2012-03-22/apple-and-xerox-parc...

And of course Apple then pilfered away many of the Xerox PARC employees over the next several years.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 6, 2016 at 6:34:33 pm

Jobs, "We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."








Coming back slightly OT for a second...


I think the debate is over in that there is nothing new to talk about because nothing has changed. You are either okay with the CC business model or you aren't. For example, the reasons why Jim isn't okay with it hasn't changed since 2012 and I doubt it will ever change because of the type of work Jim does and how he likes to work. In contrast to this, NLEs are changing are on regular basis so there is continued room for reevaluation (and debate) in the FCP X or Not area.


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David Mathis
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 7, 2016 at 10:01:39 am

I totally agree with you. The only thing that might spark another debate is if Adobe were to raise subscription price, drop offerings or both. Anything is possible and should that happen (unlikely it will) people will look at other options.
I have made my choice, as have others, so the debate is over. There might be a discussion of sorts after NAB, not a debate as in the past. Turns off the lights, closes door and moves on.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 9, 2016 at 5:21:08 am

Absolutely agreed Andrew. That Picasso quote is well known. And I agree with Jobs. I can't see any other company or CEO introducing the mouse driven GUI with the design advances the Mac had over other current computers, in combination with the right price and elegant design. They had some brilliant people working on the Mac and a CEO willing to create a revolutionary product from it. And commit the money to produce it. Xerox proposed the Star which had the interface but was overpriced, was otherwise conventional, and never caught on. Abysmal marketing. The expected too much money for the mouse/windows interface it developed at PARC. Microsoft didn't have it because they didn't have the imagination to invent it or control of the hardware which was IBM. They copied Apple eventually with Windows.

And thank you for recognizing that my way of working will never mesh with the Adobe rental/contract model. We've been over that before.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 11, 2016 at 1:29:31 am

Andrew, I agree with you up to the point where you state that there is no room for a debate area like this one on the Cow that primarily argues the rental model. FCPX or Not, the Debate, doesn't touch that point as fundamentally as the discussions here have. I think, for a certain rather large group of people, the rental model is eventually going to bite them. They may not realize it when they have going businesses, or do strictly commercial work. Maybe not now, but perhaps eventually, they will want to move to activities in video/audio communication that don't support constant payment for access. They could be left in a very precarious position.

Whether it be for creation of video art, pro-bono work to benefit a cause or community, or just a project for which there will be no monetary flow, they will wish they had been working in a software/hardware environment more forgiving to personal financial inconsistencies than the Adobe rental model allows. I think there are many of us out here in that boat. Even though I could still afford the rental model with my current contracts, and am lucky that I can pretty much pick and choose which aspects of my archives to work on for those contracts, my desire to do paying work for its own sake will eventually end. I began doing art video with the video synthesizers I constructed and used at Cal Arts and the Art Institute of Chicago. I did programming with them at WTTW, PBS Chicago as an employee. Not a lot of money in it, but it was the most artistically satisfying I've ever done. It required post production. I want to have access to excellent post in the future for similar projects, maybe using new tools other than the synthesizers.

I don't want to be a slave to commercial work forever in order to do that. I started doing video art and photography that was completely non-commercial. I would like to have the option to devote my time to that in the future, as well as non commercial documentary work. The rental model makes that a very difficult road to follow.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 11, 2016 at 2:21:13 am

What you've just said Jim is pretty much the same thing you said 3yrs ago in your first post in this forum that I could find.

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/295

And that's my point. I don't think there is anything new to add to the debate. Either you are okay with the business model or you aren't. The reasons some people are okay with it haven't changed, the reasons some people aren't okay with it haven't changed, and the business model from Adobe hasn't changed.

I don't think I ever said, and never meant to imply, that there's no room for a debate like this at the COW just that the debate has been debated out because the variables haven't changed since day 1. We could make a list of pro's and con's, pin it as the top most thread in this forum and we'd never have to update it unless Adobe changed their business model. There's just nothing new to talk about which is why in the last 3 months only 5 threads have been started here.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 11, 2016 at 3:06:05 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't think I ever said, and never meant to imply, that there's no room for a debate like this at the COW just that the debate has been debated out because the variables haven't changed since day 1."

To underscore the official position here, there's very definitely room to debate this sort of thing in the COW. This is the room. :-)

It's conceivable that a new angle will present itself some day. When it does, this room will be here waiting.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 11, 2016 at 4:03:21 am

[Tim Wilson] "When it does, this room will be here waiting."

Well that sounds ominous...


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Tim Wilson
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 11, 2016 at 6:13:50 am

[Andrew Kimery] "[Tim Wilson] "When it does, this room will be here waiting."

Well that sounds ominous..."


Yeah, that's always been a problem for me, people not being able to tell if I'm being welcoming or scary, when it seems like it's kinda both. LOL


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Steve Connor
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 11, 2016 at 11:46:37 am

[Tim Wilson] "Yeah, that's always been a problem for me, people not being able to tell if I'm being welcoming or scary, when it seems like it's kinda both. LOL
"


It's a great skill to have!


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David Mathis
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 14, 2016 at 6:01:31 pm

On a dark, stormy night ready the flashlights and ghost stories in the basement.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 29, 2016 at 8:18:32 pm

Andrew, actually my position hasn't changed since this thread from before the Creative Cloud Debate forum:

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/378/295#295

The great Chopped Liver debate, indeed. I think that thread spawned this Forum. Still feel the same way, though the evolution of the situation has become clearer. Those, like myself, are moving to other products from other companies. And it is still a shame that Adobe won't offer a permanent license. Yes I know, it is just a license, but CC is the opposite of permanent. However, your project access still disappears when you stop paying. For me and others that is a no go situation. Thanks for this dip into history. And on it goes.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 9, 2016 at 4:58:13 am

And then Bill Gates stole it from Apple with Windows. I had a personal demonstration at Xerox PARC of that system. The Macintosh was much advanced from that system when Apple released the mouse driven GUI on the first Macintosh from what I saw at PARC. A good friend of mine ran the video department there and gave me the full tour. Xerox blew it by never releasing a product based on that GUI and their desire to charge a very high price. Nice copiers, though.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Steve Connor
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 9, 2016 at 9:23:25 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Xerox blew it by never releasing a product based on that GUI and their desire to charge a very high price"

I don't imagine Xerox at the time would have had much of a chance of making a successful product with it though. Might have been a very different world if they had though!


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Is the debate over
on Mar 9, 2016 at 3:26:49 pm

You're right, Jim. It's not really who you steal from, or what you steal, it's whether you improve upon what you stole, and both Apple and Microsoft most certainly did.

Back in the early 90s, I was producer on a show called PCTV-Live, which had limited cable distribution in the US. We were a real geek-fest, doing a weekly live show featuring reviews of the latest hardware and software, and interviews with the luminaries of the time. I remember receiving a NeXT Computer for review, and we were all blown away by it...it was a workstation which relied on Display Postscript for its' GUI, so it was really WYSIWYG! And it was powerful! But it was never a commercial success, and it quickly faded into obscurity. What I'm getting at, is that even if you do steal the idea, if you don't run with it in the right direction (that's the tough part), and improve upon the initial idea, you're a goner. Jobs, of course, wasn't a goner after NeXT.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Gabe Strong
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 13, 2016 at 1:37:22 am

I think it's maybe much like political debates. Yelling at the other
side about how stupid they are, doesn't change minds. People
have their own opinions, and not everyone agrees on things.....all
sorts of things. This includes the need to pay for software as a
subscription or a perpetual license. I personally hate the
subscription method, and I will not be spending any money on
Adobe going forward. But plenty of other people like it, and it works
for them. Seems kind of silly to sit here having the same old arguments
over and over again. People that like it will use it, and those that have
issues with the payment method will decline to. No use in arguing over it,
people pretty much have made up their minds by this point.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 16, 2016 at 8:20:03 pm

[Steve Connor] "Sure is quiet in here, are we done?"

Once you started using Adobe Premiere the room went silent and has never recovered.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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David Mathis
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 17, 2016 at 1:21:15 am

I think the debate officially ended when Aindreas bit the bullet and subscribed. Hell, on the other hand has not frozen over.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Is the debate over?
on Mar 23, 2016 at 6:28:18 am

Or maybe the debate ended when you quit using Adobe Premiere. Surprisingly easy.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.3, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, Resolve 12.3.1, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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