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Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?

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Bill Davis
Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 14, 2015 at 7:49:28 pm

So lots of email today and ads with DEEP discounts for a first year of CC. Like pushing near 70% off. IIRC the earlier discussions here the idea advanced was that the subscription rate didn't reflect the value of the subscribers but rather was supposed to represent the "value" of the software itself. Something about SOX requiring accounting on this basis? So am I misreading this? Is this just a traditional "loss leader" and what does that say about product value? Does Adobe percive the primary value as the customers they've locked into the income stream? Am I mis-reading this? I thought much writing here was to emphasize the SOX requirements that they peg the company value to a demonstrable value (the subscription rate.) is that being devalued by radically lowering the price purely for the purpose of customer acquisition? That sounds like a pure mold fashioned "sales model" strategy. Doesn't that mean they value the subscription OVER the product? Honestly trying to understand this brave new subscription world. Any one with any insight?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 14, 2015 at 10:21:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "So lots of email today and ads with DEEP discounts for a first year of CC. Like pushing near 70% off."

Do you have an example of these emails and ads? I haven't seen anything beyond a 39.99 Black Friday deal.


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Craig Alan
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 14, 2015 at 10:53:12 pm

Again it would be worth taking advantage of the sale if you had some way to access your projects and transfer/export them if you choose to not renew (at full price).

"Loss leader" may not be the case since how much would allowing new downloads of software cost Adobe?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 14, 2015 at 10:58:56 pm

I got this this morning. I've seen multiple Adobe internet banner ads in my web browsing - (possibly some or them here on the Cow?) Didn't really notice that this one is specifically an education deal - just quick scanned it and saw the price and that it's a whoppping $68% off for the first year - which I noted in my post.



Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 12:58:13 am

[Bill Davis] "Didn't really notice that this one is specifically an education deal"

And that makes quite a difference, don't you think? On top of that, it's 68% off the full Creative Cloud price, but the full price normally for Students/Teachers is $29.99, so this is really only half-off deal. Which makes sense for a Black Friday promotion.

Curious that you couldn't take the time to actually look at the email, but you could take the time to come here and type up a post about it...


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Bill Davis
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 1:29:29 am

Why is that curious? The cloud rental business model has been one of the threads I've been MOST active in.

There was a ton of discussion right here about how SOX and other contemporary regulations were designed to capture the value of software in accounting terms - and that those specific regulations were part of what Adobe was reacting to when they moved to the rental model and AWAY from the sales model.

The 68% figure was a DIRECT lift from their ad. If you think the figure is misleading - you need to take that up with the Adobe folks - not me.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bret Williams
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 4:12:25 am

Don't they give everyone 50% off their first year? My first year (CS6) was $25 a month. So this is just half off the regular student rate. Adobe is creatively combining the two discounts into one 68% off the regular price.

All the other accounting jibber jabber is above my pay grade.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 5:03:22 am

[Bill Davis] "Why is that curious? The cloud rental business model has been one of the threads I've been MOST active in. "

Exactly, which is why when you though you "got 'em!" you posted immediately without actually checking to verify. I mean, seriously, 68% off is one of those "much too good to be true things" and yet you were so happy to have something to post about in this manner you didn't actually bother to check until I asked you to.

[Bill Davis] "The 68% figure was a DIRECT lift from their ad. If you think the figure is misleading - you need to take that up with the Adobe folks - not me."

Whoosh! Right over your head. The 68% figure is accurate, the Black Friday deal of Adobe Creative Cloud with the educational discount is actually 68%. The way you interpreted that number was what was bogus. The cost of the educational version of Creative Cloud is $29.99 per month, a savings of $20 per month over what I pay, or $240 less per year, a difference of around 40%.

So now, a Black Friday deal is tacking on an additional 28% for two days only for the educational version of Creative Cloud.

Seems to hardly matter in the overall scheme of things, now does it? Helps to actually read the emails, Bill, especially before you take the time to post to ask about SOX in relation to Adobe being so desperate they are discounting the educational version for two days as part of a Black Friday deal.


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Bill Davis
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 6:07:26 am

[Gary Huff] "Exactly, which is why when you though you "got 'em!" you posted immediately without actually checking to verify. I mean, seriously, 68% off is one of those "much too good to be true things" and yet you were so happy to have something to post about in this manner you didn't actually bother to check until I asked you to."

I think this shift of transactional power from consumer to vendor matters HUGELY. Hope you enjoy the "binding arbitration" contained in the mice type if you ever have a dispute with your new "vendor equal partner." I'm SURE that in court you'll be able to go totally toe-to-toe with whatever legal council Adobe can scrape up.

Also checked my original post. Can't find ANY of these phrases or words you're putting in quotes responding to me: NOT "got 'em" NOT "much too good to be true things" not even the italicized term desperate anywhere. Do you understand what quoting actually is? Quotes are normally used to refer to things ACTUALLY written - unless someone is using them for emphasis in, say, fiction? Personally, I'm trying to wean myself off the use of "scare quotes." I'm told it's a sign of poor writing. And so it goes.

[Gary Huff] "Whoosh! Right over your head. The 68% figure is accurate, the Black Friday deal of Adobe Creative Cloud with the educational discount is actually 68%. The way you interpreted that number was what was bogus. The cost of the educational version of Creative Cloud is $29.99 per month, a savings of $20 per month over what I pay, or $240 less per year, a difference of around 40%."

"interpreted" ? I didn't interpret anything. I just noted that adobe was "pushing near 70% off" That's just accurate math. Their math, not mine. Andsorry you get stuck paying full price when the newbies only have to pay 32% of what you do for the exact same thing. But don't worry. Next year they'll be closer to your cost when the Black Friday prices expire - and then the day they graduate they'll get to pony up full price every month for the rest of their career to keep going - just like you do! So fairness is coming! Rejoice.

Oh, and how you managed to decode "two days" out of "now through November 28th" is beyond me.

But whatever.

Happy Holidays anyway - and PLEASE don't imagine me imagining those words in Starbucks holiday Red to secretly apply some sort of a bizarrely anti-religious bias. OK?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 2:10:37 pm

Could we have a "Move to Adobe Creative Cloud Debate forum" button Tim? :)


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David Mathis
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 8:11:22 pm

Debate or rant forum? :-)


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James Culbertson
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 12:24:56 am

[Steve Connor] "Could we have a "Move to Adobe Creative Cloud Debate forum" button Tim? :)"

This seems as relevant as anything else posted here these days.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 2:16:38 pm

[Bill Davis] "Hope you enjoy the "binding arbitration" contained in the mice type if you ever have a dispute with your new "vendor equal partner." I'm SURE that in court you'll be able to go totally toe-to-toe with whatever legal council Adobe can scrape up. "

If you want to discuss binding arbitration vs using the court system, then by all means, start a thread on Adobe Creative Cloud: The Debate. But this is simply a complete diversion away from your original point, which I suppose you are starting to believe is collapsing under its own weight.

[Bill Davis] "Also checked my original post. Can't find ANY of these phrases or words you're putting in quotes responding to me: NOT "got 'em" NOT "much too good to be true things" not even the italicized term desperate anywhere. Do you understand what quoting actually is? Quotes are normally used to refer to things ACTUALLY written - unless someone is using them for emphasis in, say, fiction?

If you want to discuss my use of quotation marks, then by all means start a thread on "Quotation Marks or Not: The Debate". Otherwise, again, simply an illustration of you grasping at whatever you can to keep the negativity flowing.

[Bill Davis] Personally, I'm trying to wean myself off the use of "scare quotes." I'm told it's a sign of poor writing. And so it goes."

I think an even larger sign of poor writing is spending time writing a post that is misinformed due to their own laziness.

[Bill Davis] "I just noted that adobe was "pushing near 70% off" That's just accurate math. Their math, not mine."

Remember Bill, critical thinking skills. They do wonders.

[Bill Davis] "Andsorry you get stuck paying full price when the newbies only have to pay 32% of what you do for the exact same thing. But don't worry. Next year they'll be closer to your cost when the Black Friday prices expire - and then the day they graduate they'll get to pony up full price every month for the rest of their career to keep going - just like you do! So fairness is coming! Rejoice. "

Newbies? You mean the newly subscribed students and teachers over the two days of Black Friday? Students and teachers, Bill. STUDENTS AND TEACHERS. There did you see that, or did you simply miss it yet a third time as you gloss over what is being said to you? (much like you didn't read that original email, isn't it?) So now your tactic is a poor attempt to make fun of me for feeling bad because I cannot take advantage of a deal that does not apply to me in any respect? Your judgement calls as to legitimate defenses is incredibly poor.

[Bill Davis] "Oh, and how you managed to decode "two days" out of "now through November 28th" is beyond me. "

Hey, you finally landed one, congrats Bill. It took you many tries, but you finally found a legitimate rebuttal! I think a medal is in order.

I got mixed up with another offer I had seen a short while before posting that for just two days over Black Friday. But you win, clearly.

[Bill Davis] "Happy Holidays anyway - and PLEASE don't imagine me imagining those words in Starbucks holiday Red to secretly apply some sort of a bizarrely anti-religious bias. OK?"

Posting in FCPX or Not instead of Creative Cloud: The Debate in the first place, then bringing up binding arbitration, quotation marks, and now Starbucks' holiday cups. I'm calling it now, Bill has been hitting the eggnog a bit too hard (and too early).


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Bill Davis
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 6:03:22 pm

[Gary Huff] "start a thread on Adobe Creative Cloud: The Debate"

The originally referenced posts were done HERE.

Dennis and others representing Adobe as to Creative Cloud issues have posted here.

Tim's responses about the overall economic models have appeared.... here.

And the "or Not" header of the very group has always meant that THIS is a place where discussions of ALL software - including the Adobe products have a home.

So I posted .... here.

I know, Silly me.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 1:07:44 am

[Bill Davis] "And the "or Not" header of the very group has always meant that THIS is a place where discussions of ALL software - including the Adobe products have a home.

So I posted .... here."


That said, we do have a process for users to weigh in on moving threads from one forum to another. As Steve notes, there's a link here for "Move to Apple FCPX Techniques Forum," and an FCPX to Creative Cloud link might well be in order too.

While it's absolutely true that topics move across debate forums, and a single thread might have combinations of both of them...

...if the first words in the subject line are "Creative Cloud," I'm thinking that the Creative Cloud Debate forum is probably the right one.

I had actually been rolling this around in my own mind, but with the mentions on this thread, plus the couple of emails I've received suggesting it be moved, that's enough votes for me to move it, which I've done.

No harm, no foul. I have every confidence that the thread will get plenty of action in its new home. In fact, I have a couple of looooooooong posts to add. LOL

I'm still trying to shorten the longest one at least a little before i post it, because yes, I write my posts offline and try to make them shorter before I post them. Believe it or not, I do in fact make them a lot shorter. LOL

Anyway, carry on, lads.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 3:49:29 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Nov 16, 2015 at 5:46:09 am

I'm all for rejuvenating the Creative Cloud or Not thread, but the FCPX or Not thread does have more activity and debate, and for me it has a great deal to do with the problems with the CC model. My reading of logical circles of inclusion or exclusion does allow for discussion of the "or not" NLE's in both forums, not to mention other ones. I think there may be some fallacies of logic here that are being used to sweep some of the more obvious deficiencies of the Adobe economic model under the rug of a less active thread. YMMV

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 5:55:23 am

[Jim Wiseman] "I think there may be some fallacies of logic here that are being used to sweep some of the more obvious deficiencies of the Adobe economic model under the rug of a less active thread. YMMV"

When the first post is explicitly about the cost of Adobe CC how is it not a prime candidate for the CC or Not forum? Sweep things under the rug? We just had a 40 or 50 post discussion about economic models (mainly Adobe's though I did try to talk about Apple's, Avid's, Blackmagic's and the changing face of software monetization in general, but no one else seemed very interested). Do we really need to rehash that same topic one a week later? If Tim is trying to suppress discussion he's doing a really poor job at it.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 6:10:40 am

We should all be free to discuss models, creative, economic, or otherwise of any software. Feel free. I'm mostly interested in the FCPX or Not thread because it offers a counter to CC. Isn't that fair game?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 2:38:48 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Isn't that fair game?"

No it is not. There are categories for a reason.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 2:11:24 am

"Or Not" seems pretty clear to me. Inclusive of comparisons. One thing, I do notice the traffic is picking up over here. It just does not seem possible to discuss the merits or demerits of any software program without comparing it to the competition which pretty clearly is Adobe Creative Cloud in the case of FCPX.

Perhaps there should then also be a "Move to Final Cut the Debate" button here? Or just one forum."Debate, the Debate" or more politely "The Discussion, The Discussion". Perhaps that might be a solution. If you move all the anti CC stuff here, both groups are just preaching to the converted. That is not how great ideas are discussed or even formed.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 3:31:05 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Perhaps there should then also be a "Move to Final Cut the Debate" button here?"

Why? How often are people talking about FCPX here?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 3:58:51 am

[Jim Wiseman] ""Or Not" seems pretty clear to me. Inclusive of comparisons."

What was being compared in Bill's OP? The special, holiday discounted price of Adobe CC for EDU vs normally discounted priced of Adobe CC for EDU vs the normal sticker price for Adobe CC. Oh, and further questions about the SOX/Adobe CC relationship even though we already have a thread on it including a number of links to various sources/examples of how the accounting measures can impact companies.

You seem like you are dying to have a conversation about it so feel free to hop into the already existing thread in the FCP Or Not forum (https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/85169#85332). I've already primed the pump with examples from Avid, Apple and Blackmagic as well as opening the door for discussing the changing landscape of software monetization in general (i.e the rise of things like ad supported, freemium, micro-transactions, season passes for video game DLC, etc.,). All that's missing is other people that want to have a discussion instead of just looking to dog pile on Adobe.

On the topic of Adobe's new, holiday discount offer is there anything besides "get'em young" that you'd like to add? 'Cause your other 4 posts in this thread just complain about the moving of the thread. Just for kicks I did a search for "davis opt out" in the FCX Or Not forum and on multiple occasions over the years Bill has, w/in the context of a bigger discussion, voiced his displeasure about Adobe's business model and it hasn't resulted in a thread getting moved. So, again, if Tim is trying to stifle negative talk about Adobe's business model he should get an award that reads, "Worst. Censorship attempt. Ever."

Honestly, IMO, the debatable points of Adobe's subscription plan are very finite and they got beat to death to death years ago. For example, the first mention of SOX was in May of 2013 yet the argument today is still basically the same. Person A lays a detailed argument of how the accounting requirements can impact selling software and Person B says "I don't believe you." Wash, rinse, repeat.

On the flip side FCP X, Lightworks, Resolve, Avid, Premiere, etc., keeping changing so the debate itself keeps changing.



[Bill Davis] "It's too bad that your post it's going to live here rather than in the much more robustly read X or Not debate forum. "


Don't worry too much, Bill. Using the robust power of the Internet I re-posted Walter's response in the already ongoing thread in the FCP X or Not forum. With so much good information already in that thread I feel like it makes the most sense to put it in there. Even as robustly read as the X or Not forum is, splintering off the same discussion into multiple threads doesn't seem like the best way to have a robust discussion.

Out of curiosity, since there are lots of great posts all over the COW do you think should they all be moved into the FCP or Not forum too since that one is so robustly read?


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 2:15:41 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Out of curiosity, since there are lots of great posts all over the COW do you think should they all be moved into the FCP or Not forum too since that one is so robustly read?"

Clearly the answer is "yes".


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 18, 2015 at 2:35:24 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Nov 18, 2015 at 3:15:25 am

Look, I completely missed this discussion, because A. My internet machine was being serviced, and B. I was on the road w/o access. So this is all new to me. And I find it rather irritating that the Adobe contingent at FCPX the debate is trying to wall off comparisons between the two programs, especially on the basis of economics and access to projects. That is the meat of the debate to me. I can produce my documentaries with either one. I certainly have no beef with Tim, we have been exchanging emails regarding a certificate problem I have had since my repaired machine was returned. Couldn't be more cordial.

In my opinion the "debate" is long over. Most people have made their decisions. Why not one forum to discuss the changes, the advantages, the good and the bad of all systems? FCPX and CC are just the most popular. Would that be too threatening? Why this walled garden? What the heck, I've already picked FCPX for more than one reason for MYSELF. Economics and philosophy of "ownership" was a very big factor. Others have their reasons. I'm all for more discussion of relative merits. But criticism or praise of only one system in a forum labeled as a debate seems foolish to me. A debate forum with only one point of view is not a debate. It's a sermon.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 18, 2015 at 7:06:31 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Would that be too threatening?"

The COW, like every message board I've ever been to, is organized by topic/subject. Some areas will always get more traffic than others but having all threads in a single forum so there is 'equal' visibility would just result in a giant mess that no one would tolerate.

When FCP X dropped, the FCP forum was inundated with rants about X and the X or Not forum was created so that all of that discussion could have its own place as opposed to gumming up the FCP forum and making it harder for people looking for answers to get help. X or Not wasn't created because anyone was threatened by X. It wasn't created to shunt any negative comments about X into the dark, nether regions of the COW. It wasn't created out of fascism. It was created because there was enough sustained dialog about it that it warranted its own forum. When Adobe went CC only the same thing happened and here we are. If the CC or Not forum didn't exist then the X or Not forum would be a natural place for a discussion about Adobe CC pricing and how SOX does/does not impact Adobe's decision to go subscription only (Business and Marketing might work too) but the CC or Not forum does exist so, again, here we are.


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Dominic Deacon
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 18, 2015 at 9:01:36 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Why not one forum to discuss the changes, the advantages, the good and the bad of all systems?"

To be fair, I do recall there being a lot of complaints on the FCX forum about there not being an "Adobe CC or Not" forum as they considered the FCX Or Not title a slur on their beloved program. I'm not sure Tim can win whatever he does.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 19, 2015 at 7:16:35 pm

[Dominic Deacon] " I'm not sure Tim can win whatever he does."

I appreciate the support. Who knew that the most controversial thing I'd do in 9 years at Creative COW would be to move a topic whose first two words are "Creative Cloud" to a "Creative Cloud" forum....

...29 hours after it went up, after multiple requests both on this thread and offline?

:-)


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David Mathis
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 19, 2015 at 8:33:19 pm

Tim, you made the right choice to move it to this forum. It is about the Creative Cloud after all. If the discussion were in a more broader sense, then it can have been in both forums. In my most humble opinion, you made a great call. Too bad the NFL referees can't do the same. LOL


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 21, 2015 at 4:47:16 pm

[Dominic Deacon] " I'm not sure Tim can win whatever he does."

Consider the source as to who it is complaining the most about this. Being unreasonable is merely par for the course.


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 7:19:54 am

[Jim Wiseman] ""Or Not" seems pretty clear to me. Inclusive of comparisons. One thing, I do notice the traffic is picking up over here. It just does not seem possible to discuss the merits or demerits of any software program without comparing it to the competition which pretty clearly is Adobe Creative Cloud in the case of FCPX.
"


Bill's post didn't mention FCPX or even NLE's, it wasn't in the context of an NLE debate, that's why people wanted it moved.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 2:42:46 am

To be clear, I don't think you will ever separate the comparisons of the two NLE's/economic models (and other systems as well) unless you only wish to discuss techniques. Opposing viewpoints may be irritating no matter what you are debating, but then isn't that the definition of "debate"? People with opposing viewpoints often have valid reasons for having them. If never the twain shall meet, there is no debate, period. And no learning. And no reason to have either of these forums. Let's just go back to "how to's".

And BTW, I see the problem Tim has and sympathize. But just dumping everything slightly negative about CC in CC the Debate essentially allows for no comparison to other products. Seemed a bit fascist to move something just because a sentence began with "Creative Cloud".

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 3:31:57 am
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Nov 17, 2015 at 3:32:23 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Opposing viewpoints may be irritating no matter what you are debating, but then isn't that the definition of "debate"?"

Not when those "viewpoints" are full of fail.

[Jim Wiseman] "Seemed a bit fascist to move something just because a sentence began with "Creative Cloud"."

Like that one. Did you really just invoke Godwin's law over a freaking sub-topic? Do you have zero respect for yourself?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 5:08:13 am

I didn't say certain language was not acceptable. Someone else did. I can think of historical examples. Godwin's law. What a bloody laugh. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. Where I come from all language is acceptable if you can back it up. Combine the two forums. Take it like a man. Shoving any mention of CC to a separate second class forum is dishonest. It is not a debate on either one.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 7:22:29 am

[Jim Wiseman] " Shoving any mention of CC to a separate second class forum is dishonest. It is not a debate on either one.
"


So you're saying that Tim moving the post to the correct forum is a bit "fascist" and "dishonest"?

Shameful


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 9:14:54 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Nov 17, 2015 at 9:18:07 am

BS. It is not shameful. I am only saying that it is intellectually dishonest to separate the two products when you are debating their merits. i'm not calling anyone a tyrant (substitute the word that cannot be mentioned even though I had close relatives killed there). God save me from the PC'ers. I also think this "Godwin's Law" thing is a load of dung. It happened, the thing we cannot mention. It's a metaphor. Sorry to offend. The real question: Are you all really so afraid of negative comments about Creative Cloud rental that you have to relegate them to a place out of your sight? A bit of broad mindedness would be appreciated.

Lack of intellectual freedom: shameful.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 10:08:35 am

[Jim Wiseman] "The real question: Are you all really so afraid of negative comments about Creative Cloud rental that you have to relegate them to a place out of your sight? A bit of broad mindedness would be appreciated."

The real answer - no. I happen to AGREE with you about Adobe ONLY offering subscription, I subscribe because I want the tools and I don't mind the cost, but they should offer the choice. There are plenty of negative comments about rental on the FCPX forum as others have pointed out and they don't get moved. Bills post was ONLY about CC with mention of other NLE's so it got moved.

[Jim Wiseman] "Lack of intellectual freedom: shameful.
"


The post was MOVED, not deleted, your response to this was wholly inappropriate and contrary to the spirit of the COW.


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Gary Huff
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 2:14:51 pm

[Steve Connor] "The post was MOVED, not deleted, your response to this was wholly inappropriate and contrary to the spirit of the COW."

Completely agree.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 8:51:03 pm

Moved to a much less heavily trafficked forum. Rental is an issue in the FCPX or not debate. It got me to FCPX from CC and I'm not going back as long as it is only available in that manner. Sorry you are offended. I've been on these forums since before it was the COW even though my profile says 2001. I think I know a bit about how it works, and free expression of relevant ideas is central to it.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Steve Connor
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 17, 2015 at 8:54:14 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Moved to a much less heavily trafficked forum. Rental is an issue in the FCPX or not debate. It got me to FCPX from CC and I'm not going back as long as it is only available in that manner. Sorry you are offended. I've been on these forums since before it was the COW even though my profile says 2001. I think I know a bit about how it works, and free expression of relevant ideas is central to it."

So have you noticed the discussion happening on the FCPX forum about CC even as we post? There's some "free expression of relevant ideas" happening right now


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 18, 2015 at 3:53:09 am

Thanks for pointing that out, Steve. Got in on the first part, but had a bit to add later. Looks as if it is rather hard to separate the two!

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 7:57:43 am

Get 'em young.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: Mid 2015 MacBook Pro Retina 15": 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 15, 2015 at 1:03:16 am

[Bill Davis] "Something about SOX requiring accounting on this basis?
.
.
.

I thought much writing here was to emphasize the SOX requirements that they peg the company value to a demonstrable value (the subscription rate.)"


AFAIK the sticky parts of the accounting come into play when you are selling a product like software. Adobe now sells a subscription so the previously problematic accounting stipulations are no longer present.


-Andrew


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Walter Soyka
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 1:54:58 pm

[Bill Davis] "IIRC the earlier discussions here the idea advanced was that the subscription rate didn't reflect the value of the subscribers but rather was supposed to represent the "value" of the software itself. Something about SOX requiring accounting on this basis?"

SOX doesn't care what you charge for a sale. It cares when you put that sale on your books.

SOX is accounting regulation, and the key element we discuss here is about revenue recognition: specifically, when can a company say they've earned revenue on a sale?

Let's put software aside for a moment, discuss a different example. Let's say a company's business is trading complex energy contracts. Under previous accounting rules, they could have made the unexpected choice to use mark-to-market accounting, which would allow them to show the net future cash flow of a contract as its current value today.

The idea behind mark-to-market is to try fairly indicate the value of something on your books by "marking it market" or declaring it's worth what you could sell it for on the market. However, when misused (such as in cases of highly complex contracts that are difficult to value or actually liquidate), mark-to-market lets you count unrealized, future profits as if they were real and current on your books.

This method of accounting, thus misused in conjunction with a complex business model and some other accounting tricks, is highly misleading to investors. Reviewing a company's books would show lots of healthy revenue from trading activity, not lots of dangerous liability from risky contracts. Sprinkle a little fraud on top, and you can completely misrepresent your business to investors.

This was the basis for the Enron accounting scandal, and the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 sought to make sure Enron could never happen again. SOX is meant to make a company's accounting more transparent to prospective investors.

To address the above scenario, SOX prohibits the recognition of current revenue for the future delivery of some value. In software, that means that if you deliver software today, but then improve the software later, you may not recognize the full value of the software sale right now. You must leave some of that value on your balance sheet as a deferred revenue liability, even if you've already collected the cash, until the value you charged for is realized. Otherwise, you are essentially able to count future profits today instead of tomorrow.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: Creative Cloud Holiday Discount Accounting?
on Nov 16, 2015 at 3:57:36 pm

Walter,

As always, a cogent and instructive take on things.

It's too bad that your post it's going to live here rather than in the much more robustly read X or Not debate forum.

Oh well.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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