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Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...

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Chris Pettit
Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 3, 2015 at 12:00:01 am
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on Oct 3, 2015 at 12:16:06 am

This is a full-disclosure post.

Like Aindreas, I feel compelled to disclose my latest decisions regarding CC since I've spent so much time slapping Adobe for shoving this whole subscription mess on us.

I don't regret any aspect of fighting this, and remain convinced that its about to get MUCH WORSE with Microsoft's latest moves with Windows 10 for example. I still find subscriptions (as the only option) for industry standard software to be abhorrent.

However (you knew it was coming):

I've been finalizing the details on a new Windows machine over the last month, expecting shipment next week.

I've put some serious resources into this machine, mostly for 3D purposes: 24 XEON cores, lots of RAM, dual Titan X GPU's, all SSD drives, etc.

The challenge that I've faced over the last couple of weeks is whether to accept delivery of this machine and then install CS6 on it again. I'm still using CS6 daily, its still fantastic software, and it would probably get me by for the next year or so if I tried until (hopefully) competitors to Adobe will really land good and fully ready to go alternatives. PC versions of Affinity. Improved playback in Resolve. New motion graphics tools in Fusion. Etc.

But in the meantime I'm worried about something that I've expressed before in previous threads: What about 4K and beyond? What about HDR? What about new codecs like H-265? Adobe's announcement that they will roll-out HDR and H265 functionality soon is a big deal for me.

I'm in the process of really pushing higher than 1080 resolutions on clients. Can I really keep pace with 3 year old software? How can I convince clients to move to UHD workflows if it takes me too long to render and to get creative feedback on my work? Adobe knows that a lot of smaller artists and companies will be faced with this dilemma and they're counting on moving us (willingly or not) to subscriptions. I'm just as appalled by that attitude as the day they announced it.

But the tools ARE better in key ways. They are more capable. Premiere is clearly faster and improved. I'm completely confused about where AE is in this regard (CC 2015 is a mess, otherwise why am I being advised to install cc 2014 as well?) but a lot of people who know more that I do say they are getting there with AE, and that a lot of the mess in CC2015 is a direct result of them doing EXACTLY what they need to to re-tool it for the future. I'm skeptical, but beginning to question my own orthodoxy. I've been burned before with Adobe, but I'm going to take the plunge and keep my fingers crossed that I wont regret my decision to subscribe. I'll pull the plug on Adobe subscriptions in a New York Minute if this gets ugly.

I would add that what made this decision slightly easier for me is that I'm increasingly confident that new versions of key tools are actually finally going to be available soon from other vendors, particularly Black Magic. That makes me a little less worried about being trapped in Adobe's never ending heroin addiction.

But in the meantime, full disclosure: I just gave Adobe my credit card for the first time in almost 4 years.


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Steve Brame
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 3, 2015 at 12:47:27 am

"24 XEON cores, lots of RAM, dual Titan X GPU's, all SSD drives, etc."

Would you like to adopt me?

Asus P6X58D Premium * Core i7 950 * 24GB RAM * nVidia GeForce GTX 770 * Windows 7 Premium 64bit * System Drive - WD Caviar Black 500GB * 2nd Drive(Pagefile, Previews) - WD Velociraptor 10K drive 600GB * Media Drive - 2TB RAID0 (4 - WD Caviar Black 500GB drive) * Matrox MX02 Mini * Adobe CC * QuickTime 7.7.5
-------------------------------------------
"98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing 'F1'."
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 3, 2015 at 3:08:36 am
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Oct 3, 2015 at 3:09:36 am

One by one... pretty soon Jim Wiseman will be the lone holdout in his Hawaiian fortress!


EDIT: BTW, feel free to still bash Adobe's business model. Not everything has to change. ;)


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Gabe Strong
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 4, 2015 at 8:18:52 am

And me in my Alaskan igloo......an igloo with Internet, but no SaaS.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 4:16:46 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Oct 5, 2015 at 4:32:01 pm

Happily staying away from it, Andrew. I wouldn't call it "bashing" either. It is what it is and it doesn't work for me. That is called "analysis". There is a very big world out there. Not everyone wants to get caught in the vortex of renting their creative tools and disappearing projects. Glad I'm on a Mac and have more choices. Is it really inconceivable that I am not happy with the software I have?

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 4:49:01 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Happily staying away from it, Andrew. I wouldn't call it "bashing" either. It is what it is and it doesn't work for me. That is called "analysis". There is a very big world out there. Not everyone wants to get caught in the vortex of renting their creative tools and disappearing projects. Glad I'm on a Mac and have more choices. Is it really inconceivable that I am not happy with the software I have?"

I'm not sure why my joke sent you down this rabbit hole, Jim. The amount of hostility some people throw Adobe's way (including the personal attacks/comments on Adobe employees) is certainly on the level of bashing and we all know CC doesn't work for you. Trust me. We do. You could never mention Adobe again and we'd all still know.

Speaking of options, I'm open to people using whatever suits there needs because they are probably much better an analyzing their own situations than I am from across the Internet.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 10:23:18 pm

The removal of choice wasn´t an advantage for all Adobe-Useres (I think it was only accepted by the most in lack of competition).
So, one has not to be surprised, if some are very angry about what Adobe did.
Logical the "hostility" can be seen in two ways.
And "bashing" or "personal attacks against employees" (in my eyes) are totally different, from what I could read in this forum or espec. from Jim.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 10:55:35 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "The removal of choice wasn´t an advantage for all Adobe-Useres (I think it was only accepted by the most in lack of competition). "

Who has made the argument that it was an advantage for ALL users? I know I haven't. Subscription isn't an advantage to all users. Perpetual licenses aren't advantages to all users. Even Avid's offering of both subscription and perpetual license isn't an advantage for all users because their new perpetual license offering might not be better for all users than the offerings that Avid previously had in place.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 11:33:09 pm

I didn´t wrote, that you said "it was an advantage for all users" - just wanted to describe, that many users were not amused about the killing of choice and therefore the "hostility" can be seen in two ways.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 1:56:46 am

[Rainer Schubert] "I didn´t wrote, that you said "it was an advantage for all users" - just wanted to describe, that many users were not amused about the killing of choice and therefore the "hostility" can be seen in two ways."

I'm not meaning to put words in your mouth Rainer. Both you and Jim seem to be arguing against a point that no one has made (that not everyone likes the subscription model) so I'm just wondering why.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 11:52:47 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The amount of hostility some people throw Adobe's way (including the personal attacks/comments on Adobe employees)"

Am I missing something?? Where are the personal attacks on Adobe employees? Sincere question Andrew. There are a lot of slings and arrows Adobe people have had to endure because of the policies of their employer. But I don't believe I've seen personal attacks. Have I missed something?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 1:41:02 am

[Chris Pettit] "Am I missing something?? Where are the personal attacks on Adobe employees? Sincere question Andrew. There are a lot of slings and arrows Adobe people have had to endure because of the policies of their employer. But I don't believe I've seen personal attacks. Have I missed something?"

I don't remember the specifics (and most of the time upper management was the target) but it got to a point at least once where Tim stepped in and asked people to cool their jets on the personal attacks. I don't think any of it was malicious, but people just getting carried away w/their statements.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 2:26:22 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't remember the specifics (and most of the time upper management was the target) but it got to a point at least once where Tim stepped in and asked people to cool their jets on the personal attacks"

The C-Suite of the 5th largest software company in the world is what you're referring to regarding 'employees'?


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Tim Wilson
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 5:59:02 pm

[Chris Pettit] "The C-Suite of the 5th largest software company in the world is what you're referring to regarding 'employees'?"

No. Adobe on the whole is fair game. ANY company is fair game. They do what they do, and they need to be accountable for it or be gone.

Fortunately, other than Apple, the companies who've gotten the most grief have been willing to stand in the fire. (Before Adobe, I'm thinking of companies like G-Tech, who took every bit of criticism and kept trying to help.)

I certainly can't imagine a company taking more grief than Adobe and staying engaged.

We've largely come around to this point of view as a consensus, regardless of the view of Adobe's policies...but as Andrew points out, it did get pretty bad, and I did have to step in.

I confess, as a reader and general participant in the forum, I felt like we'd been going in circles for a while, but I'm enjoying how things are evolving. There's always been lots to talk about around these issues.

Speaking as an admin, I'm THRILLED that things are running smoothly and civil-ly, even when disagreements are passionately stated.

And I continue to thank you all for letting me participate primarily as an industry nerd, without limiting me to speaking ONLY as an admin...which frankly, I haven't had to do in a very, very long time anyway. Awesome.

Carry on, gents. I'll come back around to post as a nerd again soon enough. :-)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 7, 2015 at 1:08:27 am

[Chris Pettit] "The C-Suite of the 5th largest software company in the world is what you're referring to regarding 'employees'?"

What can I say, I see people, not titles. ;)


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Steve Connor
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 3, 2015 at 7:50:34 pm







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Dave LaRonde
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 4, 2015 at 1:53:30 am

Oh, sir, I feel your pain. I don't have your set of worries, yet I still feel compelled to exhort you to hold out as long as you can.
The existing software can still accommodate 2k & 4k without problems. Other very capable is just over the horizon.

It comes down, it seems, to who is going to flinch first. That is the agony of your situation. You don't have a crystal ball. You must do what is best for you...

...and design your projects to leave yourself as much of an exit strategy as possible. I do not envy you in your position. I too find the Adobe rental abhorrent. I sincerely hope you can hold out just long enough to set yourself free.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 12:03:38 am

[Dave LaRonde] "...and design your projects to leave yourself as much of an exit strategy as possible. I do not envy you in your position. I too find the Adobe rental abhorrent. I sincerely hope you can hold out just long enough to set yourself free."

That's it. I'm assuming significant and progressively better increases in productivity, render speeds interface improvements in my year with CC as well as being cutting edge regarding formats and compatibilities. But I have no intention of being trapped by dipping my toe in the CC water. None.

At the moment Adobe CC seems more like bridge or transition software to me. From CS6 to new tools from other vendors, I hope. I would love nothing more that to have spent 600 dollars for 1 year and then leave Adobe IF they refuse to offer an exit strategy for that subscription. Chances are they wont, so I'm VERY interested in ANY alternative tools (translate: come take my money)

Others have suggested that Adobe will need to dazzle and impress subscribers or loose subscribers. NO ONE will need to be more dazzled and impressed than me.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 10:01:31 pm

Good luck, Chris.
Clearly not easy to get out of Adobes monopoly for the moment, if your workflow, customer needs and necessities don´t offer a choice to use competitors.
And especially if you used these tools for years or decades.
Also really hope, that you once will find a way to get off the clouds dependency (maybe with a buyout or a competitor) without loosing the access to your projects (or to have to pay Adobe for the use of your work).
I still have to use CS6 sometimes (but more and more seldom). As most of my business isn´t Video-related and I´m on MAC/WIN & LINUX, it wasn´t that hard to replace most tools by competitors. And sometimes I enjoy features that Adobe didn´t offer.
Biggest problem are delivered CC-Files (as Adobe clearly holds somewhat like a monopoly in the graphical industry) that are not easy to edit without CC. Sometimes impossible, and sometimes creating hazzles. But for the moment it´s working - sometimes with a bit goodwill of my related companies.
A Problem, all Cloud-Users will have, if they ever turn Adobe their back, but I think, that was discussed here till the end.
So, as it´s becoming more and more silent here in this forum…
All the best for you and hope you can enjoy the use of the software (you had to criticize that long that much ; )


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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:01:54 am

[Rainer Schubert] "So, as it´s becoming more and more silent here in this forum…
All the best for you and hope you can enjoy the use of the software (you had to criticize that long that much ; )"


Thanks Ranier. I'm not leaving for another planet. I have not relinquished my right to critisize Adobe for this entire mess. In fact, now that circumstances have forced me to make a decision against my will, I will be doubly critical when things dont go well.

I want to renew my STRONG opinion: Adobe could offer an exit strategy for this whole thing. And personally I have no intention of becoming quiet on that front.

In fact one could argue that now that I have felt compelled to subscribe against my better judgement, that I have will have an even better moral argument than before. No longer will I hear that "its a really good deal but you haven't tried it so you dont know..."


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:35:26 am

[Chris Pettit] "No longer will I hear that "its a really good deal but you haven't tried it so you dont know...""

LOL (Mads?)
(and, no, I don´t think, that you can´t criticize Clouds, if you are on. Also it seems, Adobe is getting away with it, I still hope that perpetual solutions will survive)


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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:41:56 am

[Rainer Schubert] "Also it seems, Adobe is getting away with it, I still hope that perpetual solutions will survive)"

I understand and have agonized over this very issue. The best way to oppose this is to not give them my money. But I felt at this point I had no choice for the moment.

It doesn't mean I'm subscribing long term. I'm just seeing how this new machine with new Adobe software works... For a year


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Bob Cole
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Dec 5, 2015 at 2:03:16 pm

If you define "exit strategy" as the ability to preserve projects (esp. After Effects) which are created on the most recent CC version, here is what you have to do:

AE will save "backwards" one version. So make sure that you have every single version on a computer. It isn't easy to find the old installation files, and sometimes, installing the latest version will try to wipe out the earlier one.

Practically speaking, I don't think even this strategy actually works. I have a CC subscription, but decided to experiment with "exiting." I tried migrating a fairly complex CC 2014 project, step by step, back to AE 6 and even AE 5.5. After a series of crashes, I gave up and am finishing on CC 2015.

If I had infinite time and a great IT Department, perhaps I could have come up with a non-CC solution. But I have neither, so I am going with the flow - for now.

I suspect that if you could "freeze" a Mac with its original OS and a pre-CC Adobe suite, you would do fine. But if you "keep current" in any way, for example by using a newer, more powerful Mac with a newer OS, you might have to give into "keeping current" with CC.

I too am looking forward to more competition.

Bob C


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:55:39 am

I know many people who have to (not want to) go similar ways like you.
Not easy to avoid CC. Adobes market position is to strong. And sometimes Adobes software is without competition.
If file-formats were open-standards - without loosing access when changing the software - this whole discussion wouldn´t be necessary.
Chris, I think, I understand your point of view exactly.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 4:18:18 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Oct 5, 2015 at 4:28:57 pm

Hope you get your credit card back soon, Chris. But if you stay with CC, you won't. I see your predicament. Not as much choice on Windows. Affinity Photo, FCPX, Motion, etc. Best of luck.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Shawn Miller
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 6:00:31 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Not as much choice on Windows. Affinity Photo, FCPX, Motion, etc. Best of luck."

I'm not sure why you think this, Jim. There are plenty of great choices on the PC side for desktop software and hardware. Where do you see creative software choices lacking on Windows.

Shawn



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Jim Wiseman
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 6:57:34 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Oct 5, 2015 at 7:05:47 pm

Chris has mentioned several times that he would try those applications, but they don't run on his hardware. He has been a long time resister to the rental model, and I think they offer the best alternatives to the Adobe rental applications. Not many replacements for AE, but he has spoken of Fusion often, which runs on Windows as well. Don't see much other than Avid that is cross platform and heavily used. We will see about Resolve. Chris says he is open to suggestions.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Tim Wilson
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 7:47:23 pm

[Shawn Miller] "There are plenty of great choices on the PC side for desktop software and hardware. "

Jim loves Media 100 (as did I!!! Built my business on it) and FCPX, so for him, non-Mac is a non-starter...

butI was going to say something similar, Shawn. After being 100% Apple since the late 70s, and all Mac since February 1984, I became a cross-platform guy when my boss Boris insisted on it. While Boris FX makes dual platform products, Boris himself wouldn't touch Windows while I was there, making it MY job. LOL

Not only are there great Windows-only solutions, with every bit of my well-known respect to Adobe notwithstanding, I think the FCP 7 guys who want the next-gen power and performance of FCPX but with tracks and traditional terminology should have made a beeline to Sony Vegas.

They'd have also found that, even on cross-platform software, performance on Windows can be (not IS, but CAN BE) superior, because Windows supports heavier-duty hardware and more options for graphics performance in particular. This has NOTHING to do with preference for Windows (Avid for example is the one of the most adamantly pro-Mac companies on the planet), and everything to do with what Windows as a platform allows that Apple does not.

Not to get into a platform war. Totally beside the point. But there are many fantastic experiences, including performance, that Mac-only guys are missing in the PC world. Even as a longtime Apple advocate, I just don't think it's true to say it's the "best" platform.

Your preference, yes. I would never try to talk you out of it, Jim. I never try to talk anyone out of ANY platform they like, for phones, cars, or cable vs. satellite. But Mac as the one with the most options? No.

Except, granted, for you, Jim. :-) Much love.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 8:58:53 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Oct 5, 2015 at 9:00:42 pm

[Tim Wilson] "While Boris FX makes dual platform products, Boris himself wouldn't touch Windows while I was there, making it MY job. LOL"

Haha, what was your reaction?

EDIT: To taking on the Windows version of the BFX plugins, that is. :-)

[Tim Wilson] "Not only are there great Windows-only solutions, with every bit of my well-known respect to Adobe notwithstanding, I think the FCP 7 guys who want the next-gen power and performance of FCPX but with tracks and traditional terminology should have made a beeline to Sony Vegas."

It's funny, days after FCPX launched, a few of my friends were freaking out about the death of FCP Classic. I suggested that they should at least try Premiere Pro on the Mac (because performance wise, it had been running rings around FCP for years), or even look at Vegas running on a fast PC. Two of my buddies got REALLY angry and told me that Vegas was for hobbyists and that "no one" uses Premiere Pro (seriously, I thought one of them was going to get violent). But yeah, I completely agree, I think a lot of FCP7/X users could find a lot to like about Vegas, if they were open to the experience.

Shawn



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 9:36:04 pm

[Shawn Miller] " Two of my buddies got REALLY angry and told me that Vegas was for hobbyists and that "no one" uses Premiere Pro (seriously, I thought one of them was going to get violent)."

Hence my eye-rolling anytime some cries about the X-smack talk as if it is the only NLE to get crapped on. I had Premiere 5.5 back in the day on a PC and quickly found out that unless I was running Avid I wasn't going to get respect from the 'pro' crowd and unless I was running FCP I wasn't gonna get respect from the 'indie' crowd. Could never wrap my head around someone posting a work-for-credit gig on Craigslist and then getting indignant because I wasn't using the 'right' NLE...

Around that same time I tried Vegas but I'd pretty much already committed to going Mac and FCP.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 11:44:33 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Hence my eye-rolling anytime some cries about the X-smack talk as if it is the only NLE to get crapped on. I had Premiere 5.5 back in the day on a PC and quickly found out that unless I was running Avid I wasn't going to get respect from the 'pro' crowd and unless I was running FCP I wasn't gonna get respect from the 'indie' crowd."

Ha ha, yup. I used to get crap (or complete dismissal) from Avid and FCP guys alike as well. A corporate guy who uses Vegas and Premiere... pffft, amature.

[Andrew Kimery] "Could never wrap my head around someone posting a work-for-credit gig on Craigslist and then getting indignant because I wasn't using the 'right' NLE..."

Yeah... indies can be funny like that. They might buy a $5,000.00 camera (that they don't know how to operate)... but pay for post... or hire a competent person who doesn't use buzzword compliant software? No way man, no way. :-)

Shawn



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Tim Wilson
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 9:50:02 pm

[Shawn Miller] "[Tim Wilson] "While Boris FX makes dual platform products, Boris himself wouldn't touch Windows while I was there, making it MY job. LOL"

Haha, what was your reaction?

EDIT: To taking on the Windows version of the BFX plugins, that is. :-) "


Boris had been cross-platform for a while before I came on around the turn of the century. My first job there was in marketing, so nobody cared. When I became the product manager of Boris FX and RED, that also included running multi-platform beta testing (we typically had a couple of hundred beta testers) and demo-ing. Boris's feeling was, demo on whatever platform the customer is using. Good idea.

Except I told him no way, man. Let somebody else do it. His reply, paraphrasing, "If somebody else is doing your job, I don't need you." LOL Words to that effect.

I can't speak to anything after 2003, but until then, Boris never touched Windows. All his coding for Windows at that time was done on Mac!

But there were no Windows machines for me to use. He told me to check the basement, and sure enough, among the broken office chairs and twisted blinds, under a mildewed tarp, I found an ancient, generic POS PC I wasn't even sure would boot.

And when I plugged it in, the performance blew away the newest, top of the line Mac Pros that the rest of the office was outfitted with. It was humiliating. My Mac-designed demos were running as much as 10 times faster on a POS PC many years old on an outdated version of Windows. Even though Boris had never touched a PC at any point in the development process.

The secret? Open GL, the support for which on Mac was pathetic, but on Windows, even on ancient machines, 3D and Open GL-accelerated compositing blew past new Macs.

I hated it. LOL

Newer versions of Windows are fine by me, though. My main systems are all running on PC, even the ones that support the family iOS devices.

But any talk of the superiority of Mac, even on supercharged Apple-specific graphics APIs, makes me roll my eyes.

Love it for whatever reasons you love it. Just don't have any illusions about THIS.





[Shawn Miller] "Two of my buddies got REALLY angry and told me that Vegas was for hobbyists"

You mean like FCPX? LOL Because any meaningful "new" feature in FCPX already existed in Vegas, or came close enough after that it's not really significant.

Likewise Premiere of course.



[Shawn Miller] ""no one" uses Premiere Pro (seriously, I thought one of them was going to get violent)"

At today's MAX event, the director of Deadpool, Tim Miller, is talking about how David Fincher talked him into using Premiere. Premiere has outraced FCPX by miles, becoming mainstream at the pinnacles of Hollywood where FCPX is still mostly a science project for the hardest core Apple-philes.

God bless 'em. Long may they wave and all that. But any talk that FCPX is on vaguely equal footing with Premiere is nonsense. (Equal footing with Avid? Don't get me started.)

None of this is surprising, since FCPX is for hobbyists. LOL


The other reason this isn't surprising is because most of our choices about EVERYTHING are driven by irrational, frequently emotional forces. Even the illusion of rationality is distorted by the lens of passion. No disrespect. This is how humans are DESIGNED to work.

And the more important the decision (spouses, careers), the LESS likely it is to be driven by rational forces.

Except, occasionally, financial ones...but even there, the concept of "value" isn't rational at all. Personal, passionate, yes. Rationally DESCRIBED, of course. But driven at its roots? No. "Value" gets to the root of our individual experiences of humanity, and our individual internalization of that experience.

(Fun reading on this subject: Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.)

This is, I think, for many people the core of their objections to subscription-only offerings: whether or not its defensible rationally (which I obviously think it is), it doesn't fit with "my view" of what's valuable, or what aligns with my experience of being human.

Totally legit, which is why, even in my acolyte position, I've left apostates to find their own way. LOL


[Shawn Miller] " if they were open to the experience."

Likewise, "open to experience" ain't exactly rational. LOL

I should note that I love this about humans. Absolutely love it.

I'm nevertheless dismayed to note that the only time the observation of irrationality is invoked is as an insult, typically flung by FCPX advocates, that anybody who disagrees with the "obvious" supremacy of X is driven by irrational forces ("doesn't get it" "stuck in old ways" etc) -- when I think it would be even more interesting to discuss the irrational forces that have driven X's adoption too.

Again no disrespect. We're humans. This is how we do it. The dueling impulses of nesting and community on one hand, and exploration and migration on the other. Without both, humanity would have died a lot sooner than it looks we're going to. LOL

If we're gonna talk about it, let's talk about it.

Not that we have to or anything. LOL But it's like my man Fred Rogers use ta say:





I was "too old" for Mister Rogers at the time, except NOBODY is too old for Mister Rogers:








M'kay, I'm posting Fred Rogers gifs instead of working. The definition of a good day in the neighborhood, but I'm signing off until tomorrow. LOL


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Shawn Miller
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 11:19:43 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Boris had been cross-platform for a while before I came on around the turn of the century. My first job there was in marketing, so nobody cared. When I became the product manager of Boris FX and RED, that also included running multi-platform beta testing (we typically had a couple of hundred beta testers) and demo-ing. Boris's feeling was, demo on whatever platform the customer is using. Good idea.

Except I told him no way, man. Let somebody else do it. His reply, paraphrasing, "If somebody else is doing your job, I don't need you." LOL Words to that effect.

I can't speak to anything after 2003, but until then, Boris never touched Windows. All his coding for Windows at that time was done on Mac!

But there were no Windows machines for me to use. He told me to check the basement, and sure enough, among the broken office chairs and twisted blinds, under a mildewed tarp, I found an ancient, generic POS PC I wasn't even sure would boot.

And when I plugged it in, the performance blew away the newest, top of the line Mac Pros that the rest of the office was outfitted with. It was humiliating. My Mac-designed demos were running as much as 10 times faster on a POS PC many years old on an outdated version of Windows. Even though Boris had never touched a PC at any point in the development process.

The secret? Open GL, the support for which on Mac was pathetic, but on Windows, even on ancient machines, 3D and Open GL-accelerated compositing blew past new Macs.

I hated it. LOL"


That is HILARIOUS, Tim. I think there may be a really funny short film in there somewhere. :-) It makes me wonder, if the popularity of games like Quake and Unreal had never pushed AMD and nVidia to develop inexpensive put powerful graphics cards, would Mac and PC performance have been the same? Without PC gamers... would there even be a dual GPU nMP?

[Tim Wilson] "At today's MAX event, the director of Deadpool, Tim Miller, is talking about how David Fincher talked him into using Premiere."

Nice, I will have to check that out!

[Tim Wilson] "M'kay, I'm posting Fred Rogers gifs instead of working. The definition of a good day in the neighborhood, but I'm signing off until tomorrow. LOL"

LOL - Roger that. :-)

Shawn



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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:03:58 am

[Shawn Miller] "I'm not sure why you think this, Jim. There are plenty of great choices on the PC side for desktop software and hardware. Where do you see creative software choices lacking on Windows."

Shawn: Where is my copy of Affinity software for Windows? How about FCPX and Motion?

BTW, If those 2 sets of software were available to me right now, Adobe wouldnt have my credit card number


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:26:50 am

[Chris Pettit] "TW, If those 2 sets of software were available to me right now, Adobe wouldnt have my credit card number"

liar pants on fire.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:30:55 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "liar pants on fire."

Not true. If I had Motion for graphics animation I could limp along a little longer. And while Photoshop is the least of my worries, it would help immensely to have alternatives to that and illustrator


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 1:04:28 am

What does that mean (I can´t imagine how this expression/proverb should be translated)? Never heard.
Aindreas a bit aggressive today?
Poor Chris & Florian & next me?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 2:18:29 am
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Oct 6, 2015 at 2:20:17 am

[Rainer Schubert] "Aindreas a bit aggressive today?
Poor Chris & Florian & next me?"


I know but it's such odd English (the quotes relate to the florian post below):

I mean most of us are willing to merry

I am shure there are people that really need to use adobe software.

those who have the choice coose to buy in cc.


I mean, after you've managed to say:

"those who have the choice -" as a good northern European like Florian, how do you manage to say

"coose to buy in cc."

Coose? How do you get there?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 9:29:55 am

ok, ok… And I wonder what I could laugh about, if this forum is likely to use only German ; )
(May be Florian has the same difficulties (as me) using foreign languages)
but, that doesn´t explain the "liar pants on fire." you used.
What does that mean? Never heard.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 6:50:45 pm

Rainer, It's a children's taunt.

Taunt def. 1. a remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 10:38:51 pm

Tx : )


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 7, 2015 at 7:34:23 pm

Ignore me - I'm mad - I thought his english was weirdly good. I thought it was someone sock puppeting an account pretending to speak bad english.

God knows what goes on in my brain. I apologised to florian below...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shawn Miller
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 2:27:54 am

[Chris Pettit] "Shawn: Where is my copy of Affinity software for Windows? How about FCPX and Motion? "

There are really solid drawing and photo editing applications on Windows that aren't from Adobe. Corel has excellent tools for photo manipulation, illustration and painting. Gimp, DrawPlus and ACDsee also come to mind. If you want NLE alternatives to Premiere Pro, you might consider Edius, Vegas or Lightworks - if you don't want to use Avid or Resolve. For compositing, there's always Nuke, Piranha(editing and finishing), Natron, Fusion, Mamba, Hitfilm or Blender. Motion graphics software is scarce on all the platforms, but if you want to avoid AE, your best bets are Hitfilm, Nuke or Fusion.

Shawn



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Jim Wiseman
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 4:37:44 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Oct 6, 2015 at 5:12:07 am

[Chris Pettit] "Shawn: Where is my copy of Affinity software for Windows? How about FCPX and Motion?

BTW, If those 2 sets of software were available to me right now, Adobe wouldnt have my credit card number"


This Plus 100! It's working for me. (edit) Forgot, also it is very inexpensive. $449.00 total, including Compressor with all the above, in perpetuity.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 7:34:58 pm

welcome to the dark tent Chris. Chris Harlan posted this somewhere after I folded:







that said they do update the software like maniacs with a gun to their head - so there's that. And PPro is utterly class now. It's easily my favourite application of the last ten years. it's a monster. Pried from my cold dead hands...

CC AE 2015 is entertaining to look at as a barmy construction. You'd... like to figure they're working the building site seeing as how half the interiors are covered in tarpaulin and "no more multi-processing options" signs. here's hoping they come out the other end on that one.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 9:52:10 pm

I am very sad to hear that adobe got this credit card. I really have the impression, that they got it now. They just had to wait and tell people that they would be left behind with their old software. Acutally it is just like this: As long as people don't need new software they talk about how much they hate the cc model. But once they need, or think they need, new software they stick to what they know. And most of the people know adobes software best. It is the easy solution... Just jump over your shadow and get used to pay, then you will never have to think about learning new software again... Brave new world. It is not like: I give them my card but i am still against cc... It is :They got my money they have what they wanted. No need to ever change buisiness model again.
I am shure there are people that really need to use adobe software. people that have far less possibilities to choose from different software. But for video production... There is plenty of good competition.
So if even those who have the choice coose to buy in cc. Well adobe just won.

No offence ment. It is not a crime to buy in cc. And everone has diferent needs. I mean most of us are willing to merry. You just should be shure that what you get is good as you are traiding your freedom ;)

Best wishes
Florian


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 5, 2015 at 10:34:50 pm

A little bit like me. I was also a bit shocked of Chris (or earlier Aindreas) Post. And - yes - the more users still accept a business model they don´t like, the easier it will be for companies like MS or Adobe to rise their profit and to establish solutions that fit their financial needs (without giving users the equivalent advantages). And I think we are not far away from a situation, where your pc will not start without a plus on your bank account. yes, brave new world.
But I don´t think, that Chris did made his decision easily and I´m sure he had his necessities (no way arround). So all the best from my side too.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:58:11 am
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on Oct 6, 2015 at 1:00:50 am

[Rainer Schubert] "yes - the more users still accept a business model they don´t like, the easier it will be for companies like MS or Adobe to rise their profit and to establish solutions that fit their financial needs (without giving users the equivalent advantages)."

I agree, as I always have.


[Rainer Schubert] "But I don´t think, that Chris did made his decision easily

True. No excuses for me, but I'm frankly worried about what comes next. I am a very small company, about to get swallowed up by very big fish if I'm not careful. 4K workflows are things that I need to promote right now to survive. When I recently had to scramble to figure out how to encode a 4K stream to h265 and get it to run on a Vizeo 4K monitor, it put the fear of god into me.

I'm just as pissed off about Adobe's nonsense as alwyas, but survival matters more for the moment

At the moment there is a lack of clarity regarding what the cutting edge of software actually is. Affintiy is an excpetion in my opinion, they are blazing new trails. But with motion graphics and animation, I'm in a bit of a more complicated spot


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 5, 2015 at 11:36:28 pm

[Florian Sepp] "No offence ment. It is not a crime to buy in cc. And everone has diferent needs. I mean most of us are willing to merry."

-

OK - I'm just going to say this - when you say stuff like: I mean most of us are willing to merry

to me that almost sounds like someone deliberately trying to mangle english?

[Florian Sepp] "I am shure there are people that really need to use adobe software."

why include the 'h' there in exactly? The rest of that sentence was so cleanly put together?
this has been bugging me for a while really.

"those who have the choice coose to buy in cc."

that's a pretty complex grammatical sentence with a weirdly pigeon english "coose" in the middle there.
or there's this one from back in may -

"- interesting point of view... and in some years we will maybe really say this and that then will imply, that adobe weekend itself."

that's an ellipses, a really complex run of words, and then "that adobe weekend itself"
what the hell is that about?

here's florian's website:
http://www.floriansepp.com/

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 6, 2015 at 6:09:17 am
Last Edited By Florian Sepp on Oct 6, 2015 at 6:38:33 am

Ok... I am sorry .... I am not a native speaker. I wrote the post on my tablet, very late at night (here in germany). There is no chance i could stand up to the very nice and well balanced english that i normaly enjoy reading on this forum.
Hey, i once had to redo a school year because of my bad english ;)

But I realy am surprised, that you looked through my posts, to find examples of my bad english. I thought this is a CC forum.
I will not take it as a sign of missing arguments.

I also might have been a bit harsh. I am quite aware, that I also could come onto this situation once a customer forces me into it. But never the less ... It makes me sad.

Best regards
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 6, 2015 at 6:57:24 pm

I can imagine me trying to respond auf Deutsch with my high school German if this was hosted in your native language!

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 7, 2015 at 3:46:05 pm

hey sorry Florian - this is going to sound insane... because it is insane, but I thought you were playing at being german poorly fluent in english? I got it into my head that the grammar mistakes were weird. God knows why. I actually thought it was a sock puppet?

Anyway - really properly sorry. That was outright bonkers on my part.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 8, 2015 at 7:00:45 am

Hi Aindreas,

things like this happen. misunderstandings are all around.

and ... well yes I am german poorly fluent in english :)

apology accepted.
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 9, 2015 at 12:31:36 pm

[Florian Sepp] "things like this happen."

no. seriously - that was crazy. If I'm going to start going in for conspiracy theories, they could at least be about the international finance system. not a second language. sigh. jesus - anyway, sorry again...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 9, 2015 at 9:13:19 pm

If you ever come to germany, drop me a mail.
wouldn't be the first friendship starting like that :)

CU
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 12, 2015 at 3:08:23 pm

very good about all that florian - sorry we had to beat you in the football... boom boom.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 13, 2015 at 8:08:48 am

he he. congratulations for that. must have been a good party :)

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 6, 2015 at 10:23:22 am

and sorry I had a server crash a while ago. my website is accessible here: http://www.webarts.net or http://floriansepp.de/

I will have to relink the .com domain.

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 6, 2015 at 3:13:06 pm

Yes florian once they turn they could get nasty

Ricardo Marty


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 6, 2015 at 5:37:25 pm

that's what happens when you choose the dark side ;)

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 7, 2015 at 1:53:40 am

[Ricardo Marty] "Yes florian once they turn they could get nasty"

Not from me. I regard all of you as friends and will NEVER be defensive about criticism regarding my decision to subscribe (temporarily). Open dialog and discussion is required.

I posted this confession to be fully honest and forthcoming- nothing more.

Nobody should pull punches as a result. My opinions have not changed. Only my current business considerations. That's it.


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of... hey florian!
on Oct 7, 2015 at 10:00:38 am

Hi Chris,

I can understand your decision very well. Sometimes there are forces that you can not resist. And when I said that people complain as long as they don't have the real need to buy in, I also meant myself. It can happen even when I nowadays start to use fusion. Never the less I believe in what I said. They now have you. You either use CC or not. If you use it, you have to stay with it. If you don't, you don't have to buy in.
The openness that you show by making this change public honors you, and the way you communicate in this forum is very pleasant.

You of course will find CC better than CS6. it is. As you are willing to smell into it you will have to prepare yourself for the fact that you might like it.

you will see, that it doesn't hurt that much to pay a regular fee. the times that you will feel the pain are lying in the future.

looking forward to your findings
best regards
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Jason Watson
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 9, 2015 at 10:03:11 pm

[Florian Sepp] "They just had to wait and tell people that they would be left behind with their old software. Acutally it is just like this: As long as people don't need new software they talk about how much they hate the cc model. But once they need, or think they need, new software they stick to what they know."

While I'm sure there are some people who make their purchasing decisions in this sort of emotional manner, from the many conversations I've had with my professional friends and colleagues who are on CC, the decision has little to nothing to do with fear of being left behind and is more about CC providing the tools that work best within their workflow.

Speaking for myself: As an example, I started out primarily using Motion, and was (and I suppose would still be) a huge proponent of it (and still to this day suggest it to others for certain tasks and workflows). However, it wasn't the thought of being left behind that propelled me to After Effects but rather the reality that I reached the functional limit of what Motion could do, and it no longer accommodated my workflow, while After Effects did. My business is built on me being able to deliver the best product I can to my clients, and while for some time I was able to do that with Motion (and still could for certain projects), there are just too many things I cannot do with it so that, at least as far as my workflow is concerned, it has become effectively obsolete as an alternative. That doesn't make it a poor choice for anyone else, but these software decisions- especially in a business environment- are not made abstractly but rather are intricately wrapped up in one's business goals, clientele, product, etc. (and no doubt you would agree). I don't make my purchases merely on the basis of what software I may or may not "need," but rather primarily make these decisions on the basis of what will most effectively enable my workflow and increase my efficiency. Right now CC provides that for me, and as long as they continue to deliver products that do that better than their competition, I have no difficulty doing business with them.

Personally, I actually like the subscription model as it lets me cost out the price of the software on a regular basis. I also think that it puts the onus more on Adobe to deliver on its promises, since the value of the subscription and thus of the products is more immediately experienced. I have no particular love or loyalty for them; if they stop delivering and/or someone else has a better product, I have no difficulty going a different direction.


[Florian Sepp] "Just jump over your shadow and get used to pay, then you will never have to think about learning new software again..."

Again, this is no doubt true for some users, but among my professional contacts learning new things- whether new software, new skills, new techniques, etc.- is not not something that is optional, but is rather integral to their success in the marketplace. Thus, I don't think that this conclusion necessarily follows from the premise of the cc business model.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 9, 2015 at 10:21:56 pm

[Jason Watson] "I have no difficulty going a different direction."
…if you don´t need the access to your CC-Files & Projects (you created in all the years of usage).


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Jason Watson
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 10, 2015 at 12:26:15 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "…if you don´t need the access to your CC-Files & Projects (you created in all the years of usage)."

Speaking for myself, I don't often have need to access old projects. Before I moved over to After Effects (and later Premiere) I was heavily into Motion and FCP7 and still have lots of old projects still sitting on a hard drive somewhere. I can count on one finger the number of times I have even needed to open a project back up, and after I did I realized that it wasn't the project I was after (since it couldn't have fit my purpose) but rather the assets within that project, which I had saved elsewhere. Now neither is even installed on my current machine, and it hasn't affected my workflow in any considerable way, even though I don't have access to years of project files.

For me, I see the project file itself as only a small piece of any project, since what is most important to me are the assets I create for use in the project and the final file generated by the project. Those are what I revisit most often, rather than anything specific to a previous project.


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 10, 2015 at 6:44:30 pm
Last Edited By Florian Sepp on Oct 10, 2015 at 6:51:36 pm

the project files are worth the time you put into them (just multiply the time that you sit in front of the program with what you charge per hour).
I am not willing to give someone ells the control over this money.

I often hear people say "from a professional point of view there is no way around CC" but you can read it in this professional forum not all of them are of that opinion. Everyone knows different professionals. I would even like to suspect that those professionals that are around for a while and got used to the way things work with their business have bigger problems persuade themselves to buy in. In my case 15 Years of 3D production.

I can not imagine in some years, after buying in and maybe out again, to tell a customer on the phone that i can not look into his old file ,change a title and render out a different coded version (5 min. of work) because i first have to buy in CC again. and when i changed my hardware I will have to install first. I normally install the perpetual licensed software on my now workstation before I start to use it.

anyway I didn't say that buying in is wrong for everyone... to be honest I would love to have both options. a perpetual licence for my workstation and a rent version for my freelancers. but adobe does not offer this. so I don't give them my money.

best regards
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Jason Watson
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 11, 2015 at 12:47:19 pm

[Florian Sepp] "the project files are worth the time you put into them (just multiply the time that you sit in front of the program with what you charge per hour).
I am not willing to give someone ells the control over this money."


While projects files probably have some value (dependent on a number of different factors), in actuality they are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them or what money can be made off of using/modifying them in the future. To be sure, they represent the number of hours put into them, but that doesn't necessarily entail they automatically have that value.

[Florian Sepp] "I often hear people say "from a professional point of view there is no way around CC" but you can read it in this professional forum not all of them are of that opinion. Everyone knows different professionals."

That there is no way for professionals around CC certainly isn't my argument.

[Florian Sepp] "I would even like to suspect that those professionals that are around for a while and got used to the way things work with their business have bigger problems persuade themselves to buy in. In my case 15 Years of 3D production."

Well, as you said, everyone knows different professionals. The people I have talked to who have had lengthy careers and long-time businesses who are on CC haven't mentioned these sorts of problems with buying in. But since I'm not trying to generalize, I can only relate what my experience (and the experience of those I've talked to) has been.

[Florian Sepp] "I can not imagine in some years, after buying in and maybe out again, to tell a customer on the phone that i can not look into his old file ,change a title and render out a different coded version (5 min. of work) because i first have to buy in CC again. and when i changed my hardware I will have to install first."

If part of your business is frequently modifying older/archived projects, then I would certainly applaud your decision to use whatever applications/hardware/workflow work best for your business.


[Florian Sepp] "anyway I didn't say that buying in is wrong for everyone..."

Nor did I say you said that it was wrong for everyone.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 13, 2015 at 7:40:05 am

I'm more like Jason in this case in that I rarely go back to finished projects. I think in the last 10yrs I've only done it 2 or 3 times. Though a long time ago I used to work at a spot/promo house and they reworked older spots all the time (the client might just want text updated and some new material added but 90% of it stayed the same).


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Tim Wilson
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 13, 2015 at 8:30:01 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Though a long time ago I used to work at a spot/promo house and they reworked older spots all the time (the client might just want text updated and some new material added but 90% of it stayed the same)."

The solution to this problem for me was the insert edit on the tape deck. :-)

I edited a weekly science show, and for the holidays, rather than reruns that I wouldn't get paid for, I built what I called remixes. Regular episodes had specific, timely stories, but for the remixes, I did things like a whole episode of bird stories that we'd previously run. Digitize tape, cut on timeline, add in some raw footage from the original shoots for "director's cuts," lay back to tape.

I don't think I could have gotten away with too many more rounds of this (raw tape digitized to bin, cut on timeline, final program to tape,then for round 2: broadcast master digitized back to bin, edited, then back to tape), but especially when seeing raw camera reels next to the redigitized masters, I felt like DigiBeta and Media 100 left more than enough leeway -- especially since about half of my final laybacks were to U-matic! LOL

This was 15-20 years ago now (wtf, when did 1995 become 20 years ago?), but I really did do it a LOT, and never consulted old projects to do it. Of course these were largely simple edits, no standards conversion, with no motion graphics that needed recompiling, so I had it pretty easy.

I ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTAND that, philosophical objections notwithstanding, this is not how David L, Jim W, Walter S and others work. ABSOLUTELY.

But in my particular world, the irreplaceable, more precious than gold object was the videotape or LTO master, and, to a lesser extent, the raw tapes, which were more often than not being used for new edits anyway. But really, it was the LTO master.

That's why, in my mind, walking away from any NLE is easy enough, especially when there's no financial friction. It didn't affect me at all that I couldn't use my Media 100 projects in Final Cut Pro or Media Composer. (By the time Premiere went Pro, I was out of the game.) I kept my Media 100 around in case I needed to figure something out, but I never did.

Now if the LTO vendors go subscription-only, we might have another conversation. :-)

And Chris, fwiw, I think "apostasy" is only if you change your beliefs. It may yet happen LOL but for now, I think you're like the rest of us, just another guy just trying to get 'er done. In the end, it's the one thing we all share.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 13, 2015 at 8:59:55 am

[Tim Wilson] "I edited a weekly science show, and for the holidays, rather than reruns that I wouldn't get paid for, I built what I called remixes. Regular episodes had specific, timely stories, but for the remixes, I did things like a whole episode of bird stories that we'd previously run. Digitize tape, cut on timeline, add in some raw footage from the original shoots for "director's cuts," lay back to tape. "

Now that you mention it that's pretty much how the place I mentioned did it. There were texted and textless versions of all the spots so when it came time to 'refresh' one of them the textless master was ingested into the Avid and the text was simple Title Tool stuff (if any special GFX were created the final renders were saved on either a disc or a Jaz drive).

We kept all the source footage on Beta, but rarely was a previous project resurrected in its entirety while I was there.


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Florian Sepp
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 14, 2015 at 8:19:28 am

I understand. I guess we have different jobs. I hardly ever touch Premiere. working mainly with after effects and photoshop. I am doing animation and VFX. Companies like their animations and they tend to reuse it a lot. the text parts of this movies are often animated in and out sometimes tracked to footage. It makes it hard to redo it exactly with a different software.
Talking about me mostly using After effects and you Premiere I think we find some reasons for our different opinions. Premiere was updated a lot since CC only, after effects not so much. there are a lot of NELs around so you don't have to fear of getting stuck. For AE there are less alternatives, that said I believe they use there market power to force people in without the necessity of inventing as much as in a competitive market as NEL.

but anyway. what really blows me away is that Adobe forces its customers into a model a lot of them dont like. they ignore a lot of their costomers and are willing to displease them.
I don't like to get forced, especially when I am the one to pay.

as I said earlier. people tend to complain as long as they don't really need to buy in (most probably including me) but for me as a AE and PS user the benefits of the new versions are not jet big enough :)

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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David Mathis
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 10, 2015 at 3:05:21 am

I have joined Photoshop subscription but plan to not renew. Nothing to do with rental only. In fact, I signed up for a three month plan for Sapphire, so far no problems.

I am considering moving completely to Resolve for editing, color grading and finishing. Starting to dig Fusion very much but will keep Motion, great little program.

Nothing against Adobe, other products meet my needs at the moment. Everyone has their own needs. Adobe will work for some but not others. I feel personal attacks and all that drama are useless. That is all, for now.


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Nathan Walters
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 12, 2015 at 5:28:03 pm

I caved about 2 months ago and subscribed to the wondrous cloud after twice in a week, I had clients fall through because I was using CS6 and they demanded I used CC. And honestly, I haven't regretted it one bit. There's something exciting about knowing you have the latest and greatest version of something, instead of only having that feeling once every 2-3 years.

I feel there are plenty of other NLE's to keep it where it feels Adobe hasn't monopolized anything, assuming, that is, that your client will let you work in the NLE of your choice. Theoretically, Adobe says that if you're paying month by month, you just subscribe for the months you need it and could possibly save money. But realistically, You're only saving money if you're using it 9 months or less a year. And how many of us can go 3 entire months in a year where we don't have to crack open a NLE? Very few I imagine.

That being said, I've always been a big After Effects user, and having something like Premiere that allows me to much more easily integrate AE into the timeline (via Dynamic Link, etc) has been incredible for my workflow.

Also, as a freelancer, I find myself working on different workstations often, so it's nice to simply have to login to my CC account and have access to the software wherever I go.

That being said, why in the world does Adobe not have a "pay once" option?!?!?!

Nathan Walters
Halo Union Productions
http://www.HaloUnion.com


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 13, 2015 at 3:03:48 pm

[Nathan Walters] "That being said, why in the world does Adobe not have a "pay once" option?!?!?!"

They do. You can pay for the whole year up front. I started doing that about 2 years ago because it's easier when doing the corporate budget that way for us.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Nathan Walters
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 13, 2015 at 3:47:32 pm

^I do that too. I mean a pay once, own it forever choice.

Nathan Walters
Halo Union Productions
http://www.HaloUnion.com


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Joining the ranks of the apostates - well... kind of...
on Oct 13, 2015 at 3:51:41 pm

[Nathan Walters] "^I do that too. I mean a pay once, own it forever choice."

ha ha...not what I meant. I assumed you meant pay for CC subscription upfront for the year (which I do). Perpetual license....yeah, that option don't exist! :-)

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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