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Nikos Papadopoulos
QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 5, 2018 at 7:56:43 pm

Hey everyone from chilly Athens!

A problem with thunderbolt 3 and FCP X is driving me nuts and was looking towards your wisdom and experiences to help track this issue down. Connected to the NAS via Thunderbolt 3 (40G cable/SMB 3), and trying to create/name/delete a new folder inside an FCPX event, or even attempting playback (normal HD H.264 files from a Canon 5Dmk3) I get beachballs everywhere. This is on a fresh install of High Sierra 10.13.3 and on the Macbook Pro 15" 2017 with Touchbar. Library and footage is on the NAS. When mounting to the same exact location via a normal 1Gbps Ethernet cable (and smb 3 again) everything runs smooth as butter! I've created a short video of the problem. Perhaps with your knowledge you can help in figuring out a solution. I've tried almost every trick in the book. Is this the case for you as well via T3? (In the video when I say SD footage I mean HD ☺ )

Video of the problem:





Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09:27 pm

Just kill me, Nick. I told you to purchase a Promise SanLink3 for 10G connection ($299 US), but you just won't do it.
You will sit there for weeks, re format your Mac, jump up and down, and do everything possible so that you don't have to buy the thunderbolt 3 to 10G adaptor. I HAVE AN IDEA - spend $6000, and get an iMac Pro. It comes for free with a 10G port (from Aquantia) and then you don't need the adaptor, and then everything will work.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 5, 2018 at 11:24:04 pm

Hey Bob,

There are a couple of points to be made. First it is to get this system working - if that means support tickets at QNAP so be it, I have the patience. I could have spend 1000€ less on a non-thunderbolt version and gotten three adapters but I have this perversion that I like to use what I paid for.

Second is to figure out what's wrong with the T3 connection. Sanlink 3 won't cover my needs due to the slow write speeds. Sonnet has issues with High Sierra. And people that are using sonnet are running into the same exact issues, so it seems those adapters won't fix this - don't forget FCPX 10.4 can also be at fault.

As I already have a 40G Thunderbolt 3 connection I'd like to use that since it suits my needs. I have not reformatted so, that's that. Figuring out what's wrong can be a learning experience so how about we solve this problem together! Please chime in if you have any ideas on where to look. Cheers!

I seem to be getting somewhere by tinkering in sysctl.conf with these settings.
net.inet.tcp.win_scale_factor=8
net.inet.tcp.autorcvbufmax=33554432
net.inet.tcp.autosndbufmax=33554432
net.inet.tcp.delayed_ack=0

kern.ipc.somaxconn=2048
net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=1
net.inet.tcp.win_scale_factor=4
net.inet.tcp.mssdflt=1448
net.inet.tcp.v6mssdflt=1412
net.inet.tcp.msl=15000
net.inet.tcp.always_keepalive=0
net.inet.tcp.slowstart_flightsize=20
net.inet.tcp.local_slowstart_flightsize=9
net.inet.tcp.blackhole=2
net.inet.udp.blackhole=1
net.inet.icmp.icmplim=50
net.inet.tcp.sendspace=1042560
net.inet.tcp.recvspace=1042560

and nsmb.conf with these settings:
[default]
signing_required=no
dir_cache_max_cnt=0
streams=yes
notify_off=yes
port445=no_netbios
unix extensions = no
veto files = /._*/.DS_Store/

It seems to be working for a while, but something is using the QNAP drives in the background and no processes in the QNAP admin verify this - even with all connections disconnected from the NAS. Qsirch disabled and ofcourse no RAID resyncs happening.

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 5, 2018 at 11:30:53 pm

Also please know that we don't have an easy way to return products for refunds here in Greece. Store attitudes are far from the US ideal that client comes first, in fact, its the exact opposite. So I can't just buy one, try it and return it.

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 12, 2018 at 11:58:34 am

While I don't have any direct experience with the TVS-1282T3 unit, I've seen some older Qnap T2 units in operation.

In general, it seems that these Qnap NAS boxes work best over network connections like GigE or 10GigE. I understand that since you've spent some extra getting a T3 device, you would like it to work over T3. But the Qnap TVS-1282T3 is not like any other T3 RAID like the one from Areca or G-Tech which are pure RAID boxes. Those work great over T2 or T3.

The Qnap, implements a T3 connection like a network connection and that's where it isn't very good. That has something to do with how the Mac implements network (SMB) over Thunderbolt (2 or 3). You may, with a bit of tinkering and support, eventually make it work over T3 but that is likely to not be as stable as a 10GigE or even a GigE connection.

So, I'm with Bob as far as simply connecting a 10GigE adapter and getting on with it.

I too am in a country where buying these boxes and returning them is not an easy option, so I know what that feels like.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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alex gardiner
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 12, 2018 at 12:52:14 pm

At a guess the kind of bursty/unpredictable performance you see stems from the fact that there is no dedicated hardware handling offload, as would be the case with a real network card.

I could be very wrong, but that seems likely.


PS. Tuning something like sysctl is "evil". This is a good description (originally from an old ZFS tuning discussion). The idea is that the defaults should already be right and if they're not the problem is likely elsewhere.

"Tuning is often evil and should rarely be done.

First, consider that the default values are set by the people who know the most about the effects of the tuning on the software that they supply. If a better value exists, it should be the default. While alternative values might help a given workload, it could quite possibly degrade some other aspects of performance. Occasionally, catastrophically so.

Over time, tuning recommendations might become stale at best or might lead to performance degradations. Customers are leery of changing a tuning that is in place and the net effect is a worse product than what it could be. Moreover, tuning enabled on a given system might spread to other systems, where it might not be warranted at all.

Nevertheless, it is understood that customers who carefully observe their own system may understand aspects of their workloads that cannot be anticipated by the defaults. In such cases, the tuning information below may be applied, provided that one works to carefully understand its effects"


The original link for this is dead (old Solaris stuff), but you get the idea.

Storage Engineer
alex@indiestor.com


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Lutz Leonhardt
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 13, 2018 at 7:57:25 am

hi Nick

maybe you can contact these people from Rise and Shine Films in swtzerland. They have the same qnap and as it seems no problems with it using thunderbolt 3.

12157_riseandshinefilms.webloc.zip


12156_qnaptvs1282t3thunderbolt3nasreviewteil13unboxingundsetupenglischyoutu...

best regards

Lutz


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 13, 2018 at 10:58:21 am

Lutz I just came back from Switzerland! Could have gone by!

Here is the bigger issue. The slowdowns that are cause are also happening on a similar system with the Sonnet 10GbE. The SanLink over T3 has a terrible write speed. This doesn't give me the confidence to buy a 10G adapter, and being in Greece, I have no option to return it if it doesn't work. Other people are using T3 successfully, so for now, I'm looking into that direction.

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Lutz Leonhardt
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 13, 2018 at 11:21:38 am

I hope you'll find a solution


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joao ferreira
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 21, 2018 at 6:23:50 pm

Hi,
I have you try NFS?
I just install a TVS-1582TU on a client and write speed sucks! TVS-1582TU is connected to a brand new iMac Pro and I try both thunderbolt3 and 10GB connections, write speed is almost the same... I have 8 8TB WD RED Pro static raid 5 with 6 SSD 256GB for cache getting only at maximum 400MB/s write speed and 1300 MB/s read. I run QNAP diagnostic app and under File System Analyser I got 1128 MB/s WRITE and 1535 MB/s Read
When adding a thunderbolt connection on QNAP you chose the option for FCP X?
I will continue my tests and i hope that QNAP can fix it ...
Have you fix your problems already ?

Thanks in advance

Joao


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Feb 21, 2018 at 9:24:55 pm

Is this Joao, that used to be with Mean Green Media in Washington DC ?

With an iMac Pro 10G port that is using the new Aquantia chip, I consistently get 800 - 900 MB/sec write speed with
the 10G connection to the QNAP (did you enable Jumbo Frames on your iMac Pro, QNAP, and 10G switch ) ?

With the Promise SanLink3 - as I told Nick, you get 350 MB/sec Write and 1100 MB/sec READ. With Thunderbolt 2 adaptors (on "old" iMacs or Mac Pros) - you get 800 MB/sec Read/Write on the same QNAP. So it's not the QNAP. The Promise SanLink3 Write speed is SLOWER than the Promise SanLink2 with a thunderbolt 2 connection, for WRITE speeds.

If you use a $100 ASUS PCIe 10G adaptor with the same Aquantia 10G chip in a Windows 10 PC connected to the QNAP, you get 1100 MB/sec READ AND WRITE on the same system. So exactly what does QNAP have to fix ? Apples issues ? Promise's issues ?

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Mar 31, 2018 at 7:08:42 pm

For anyone following this, the slowdown issues seem to be resolved in the latest macOS 10.13.4. I have been in contact with both QNAP and Apple and before today the issue was ongoing. We can now work on the system again with multiple users. For reference I will post the configuration that is working for me:

FCPX 10.4, macOS 10.13.4
MacBook Pro Retina 2017 15" Maxed out
QNAP TVS-1282T3 firmware 4.3.4.0537 Build 20180331
QNAP's 40Gbps 2m Thunderbolt 3 cable
8x8TB HGST NAS 7200rpm drives
1 Static volume (Qsirch on, spotlight indexing on, multimedia apps off, network trash off)
Mounting via SMB 3
iMac 5K Retina & Mac Pro 2008 (with dosdude's patch to install 10.13.4 and an NVIDIA GTX 960) connected via 1Gbps ethernet for now. Waiting on NAB for new 10Gbps adapters.

nsmb.conf
[default]
signing_required=no
streams=yes
veto files = /._*/.DS_Store/


sysctl.conf
net.inet.tcp.doautorcvbuf=0
net.inet.tcp.doautosndbuf=0
net.inet.tcp.sendspace=4194304
net.inet.tcp.recvspace=4194304
net.inet.tcp.maxseg_unacked=8
net.inet.tcp.delayed_ack=0
net.inet.tcp.win_scale_factor=7


Disabled DSStore files on network
defaults write com.apple.desktopservices DSDontWriteNetworkStores true



Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 1, 2018 at 5:01:55 am

Just for clarity.

Your MacBook Pro is running 10.13.4. Are your iMac5k and Mac Pro 2008 running 10.13.4 too?
The changes in numb.conf, sysctl.conf and the DSStore disable needs to be done on all systems?

Have you tried with one or more systems running 10.12.x on the same QNAP? Not that I'm suggesting a rollback of OS, was just wondering of this is a 10.13.x thing.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 1, 2018 at 9:07:01 am

Neil hello!

Yes, all three machines are on 10.13.4, and the changes need to be done on all systems.

The sysctl.conf is more tricky in that it works better without those settings on a 1gbps configuration. So if you connect with 1Gbps then avoid changing the default sysctl.conf (which is empty btw). The nsmb.conf and terminal commands should all be performed though.

We have not tried 10.12.x since when we got the QNAP, our systems were already at 10.13.x. However other fellow coworkers had similar issues on 10.12 and 10.13 even with the sonnet adapters. The same issues showed up on the T3 did not show up on the T2 version.

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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alex gardiner
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 10, 2018 at 8:40:19 am

It's nice to see that you had some progress with this!

Storage Engineer
alex@indiestor.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 11, 2018 at 2:46:08 pm

Nick now needs to stop this nonsense with Thunderbolt 3 and purchase the new Sonnet Solo 10G for
$199. He will get 900 - 1000 MB/sec Write and Read speeds. The new Sonnet is wonderful, and CHEAP.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 11, 2018 at 9:35:09 pm

Hi Bob!

Sounds like a great deal! I have yet to find it online. I also assume those speeds are tested by you!! Fortunately the thunderbolt 3 is now working at full potential as well, on paper and hands-on, something I needed in order to quickly plug the laptop on and off!

When released, I'll definitely consider the purchase to get rid of the noise problem as well!

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 15, 2018 at 10:11:46 pm

Hello Nick, thank you very much for taking time to detailed your issue and how its been solved. We will buy the TVS-1282T3 and using it with Thunderbolt as well. Just have to buy TB3 - TB2 Apple adaptors for our 3 Mac Pros Late 2013 maxed out. Do you ou think we should get similar READ/WRITE performance?

Mel :)


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 16, 2018 at 1:27:20 pm

Hi Mel,

Though I am glad the issue was solved, the latest FCPX 10.4.1 update brought it forward again. So I had to remain at 10.4 until Apple resolves this. Thus in case FCPX is your tool of choice, I would highly recommend you invest in 10 Gbit ethernet adapters if you want to be updated and mostly trouble free. This is clearly an apple issue, and though it may be resolved, it is a rocky ride. If you stick to fcpx 10.4, all will run very smoothly. Both caldigit and sonnet are coming out with cost effective options for 10Gbe. Also the unit is extremely annoying in terms of noise, because of random vibrations in addition to drive and fan noise.

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 16, 2018 at 6:13:24 pm

Hi Nick,

FCPX 10.4.1 and the problem is back! OH thats a shame. Well this is definitely a no go for us then. All the wire in the building are cat5. Still looking for Thunderbolt solutions here.
Thanks for your input!

Mel :)


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 16, 2018 at 6:32:45 pm

running a Cat 6 cable is much cheaper than running a long thunderbolt optical cable. And there are no thunderbolt 3 optical cables. The longest cable you can run for Thunderbolt 3 is only 2 meters. With Cat 6, you can run 55 meters, and with Cat 6A you can run 100 meters.

The new Sonnet Solo 10G is $199 US, and you will get 900 - 1000 MB/sec Write/Read speeds without issue.
I don't know why you consider this a "deal breaker".

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 16, 2018 at 6:56:15 pm

Everybody is working in the same room. This is why Thunderbolt is not an issue for us. While we are considering other solutions, I would like to know more about the new Sonnet Solo 10G. Strangely, nothing we can find over the net. You have a link?

Mel :)


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 16, 2018 at 8:01:30 pm

You purchase a small QNAP, like the TVS-873e ($1299) that requires an optional 10G card, or your purchase a QNAP that already has a 10G card in it, like the TVS-1282T, or TS-1685. You plug the 10G port into the new QNAP
QSW-1208-8C switch ($589 retail - also brand new product as of NAB). This is an 8 port 10G switch. (12 SFP+, and 8 10Gbase-T for copper RJ45 Cat 6 cables).

The Solo 10G is a brand new product for Sonnet. It is not on the Sonnet website yet. It was at NAB, and I used one for demonstration with a QNAP at the Maxx Digital booth. QNAP also had one of these at their booth. IT's $199 retail.
It's buss powered, thunderbolt 3 only (not backwards compatible to thunderbolt 2), and has a single 10G port for connection to a 10G switch. Read/Write Speeds on the TVS-873e were about 600 WRITE, and 1000 READ.
On the QNAP TVS-882ST3, we got 900 WRITE and 1000 READ, using the same MacBook Pro, same Sonnet Solo 10G and same QNAP QSW-1208-8C switch.

When new products are just released, you need to wait a few weeks to see them on the usual Amazon, B&H websites.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 17, 2018 at 2:08:36 pm

https://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&ved=2ahUKEw...


Here you go for more info on Sonnet. Also excited about the PCI-e card for 100$!!...

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 18, 2018 at 1:13:29 pm

Thanks Nick, very promising!

As we dig the info and possible issues between FCPX and TVS-1282t3, we are looking elsewhere. Jellyfish from Lumaforge seems to have something more targeted to FCPX market which makes us more confident I guess.

You guys are great and again, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and issues with products!

Best regards,

Mel :)


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 18, 2018 at 4:31:38 pm

Mel hello!

Jellyfish is really a plug and play solution. In my opinion, the only thing that separates it from the QNAP is its ability to search within spotlight! You connect to it via 10G ethernet just like the QNAP and thunderbolt is not a option. What you are not getting with it is a server. So you will not be able to connect to your footage and files remotely from your phone/tablet/internet ( a feature I could barely live without now!). You will not be getting a whole host of apps, or any sort of expandability via thunderbolt. And also you will not get the Jellyfish at the QNAP price. Your requirements therefore will dictate your options!

Always with regards,
Nikos

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 18, 2018 at 6:23:17 pm

For us, plug and play is the way to go since we have no experience in server at all. Nobody likes to deal with problems especially with tight schedule.

Having access to the footage on the go is not even a possibility. The local internet company is offering 15 Mbit/s download and 800 Kbit/s upload. Thats very slow ☹

I agree with you that no matter what solutions, 10gbe adaptors from TB2 will be required. Still waiting for estimates from SNS EVO and Lumaforge.

Best regards,

Mel :)


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 18, 2018 at 6:35:23 pm

I agree that dealing with problems is really a demotivator. A small correction, the QNAP has a realtime transcoding engine, so you can view it under the worst circumstances. Of course you can access the original too, but QNAP has really nailed this so well, I have impressed quite a few clients already!

Of course the estimates from the other companies will be quite above the QNAP and while it is quite a difficult area technical-wise, you can get started quite easily with a quick youtube video. If you order from SPAN.com you can also get it preconfigured, so 99% you'll be good to go after connecting a few cables and change a couple of settings. I don't know your level of expertise, so in case you don't want to involve yourself setting anything up, Lumaforge has great support.

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 18, 2018 at 6:39:26 pm

Bob hi!

Did you by the way get to test the Solo 10G connected directly to the QNAP? If you did, was the performance the same?

Sonnet said end of the month availability. Looking forward to getting a couple!

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 19, 2018 at 2:51:52 am

Hi Nick -
yes, I showed the QNAP TVS-882ST3 working with an iMac and the Sonnet Solo 10G at NAB. We got about 1000 MB/sec WRITE and READ. And it requires no driver installation, if you are running 10.13.3 or higher.

And Melany, I can help you with the QNAP, and you will save a lot of $$$ .

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 19, 2018 at 5:33:37 pm

Hi Bob,

Any help is welcome here. ☺

I understand that the Jellyfish is 8,995.00 (32TB) and the QNAP TVS-1282T3-i7-32G (32TB) is 5,270.00 on amazon.
It would be perfect to be hooked by thunderbolt port without issue cause this is a feature and this is why this particular solution seems attractive at first sight. If not... Because of Apple, Qnap or else,...Then

I need 3 Thunderbolt 2 adaptors to 10Gbe for our 3 Mac Pros Late 2013. There is 1 iMac that need to be hooked for documents and other small stuff that can live with 1Gb connection

Do you think, a smal team of 4-5 can easily work together with this shared storage?

Best

Mel :)


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 19, 2018 at 10:57:13 pm

Hi Melany -
I do not understand your question. I don't care if you get a Lumaforge Jellyfish (a GREAT product), the QNAP, a Synology, an EditShare, a ProMax, an Apace, a Terrablock, an AVID Nexis, a SNS EVO.

You have 4 - 5 editors, you MUST have a 10G network switch to connect all these users to your shared storage system. With a 1G Ethernet connection, you will get 100 MB/sec per client. With a 10G adaptor, you will get dramatically faster performance. You will not have success with thunderbolt connections - and you certainly cannot get 5 people hooked up to a system via Thunderbolt. Use the 10G network interface, and you will have no issues.

Please remember that systems from QNAP, Synology, Netgear are not "plug and play" like a G-Tech G-Rack or Promise Pegasus. Someone like me must set this up for you, unless you are familiar with configuring shared storage systems. When you buy a Lumaforge Jellyfish or Studio Network Solutions EVO (for example), these more expensive products come with EXCELLENT tech support, and they help you with the setup, because you have paid extra for it (that's why they are more expensive). If you think you will buy the QNAP, plug in the computers to the switch, and it will just work - well, you are fooling yourself. Someone must assist you with the setup that is familiar with this product.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 20, 2018 at 2:30:35 pm

Hi Bob,
Hope you are doing well today!

The way I see it, it is more complex to set up than a plug n play shared storage. Now my question is: How more complex it is?

I did not know all the company and solutions possible on the market. I went with 3 quotes and I have to make a decision.

Would you say, with the tutorials I can find online, anybody can follow these setps and configure the Qnap to work?

Best regards,

Mel :)


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Nikos Papadopoulos
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 20, 2018 at 2:42:01 pm

Mel hello!

There hardly is plug and play shared storage. The reason is that it is no simple task. You need to know to assign static ip's, permissions, mtu configuration etc... They all need to be configured. It is just that those solutions stated as "plug and play" have amazing support (which is included in the higher price of the machines) and they guide you through the process. On the other hand it is not rocket science. Depends on what you value more - your time or your budget! The raid systems (such as the 'promise') Bob mentioned are like external drive solutions, not shared storage - hence plug and play but not shareable. Setting up a 5 user network needs some networking knowledge which you can either get a person like Bob to help you or buy a solution with support built in. QNAP is diy!

Passion and knowledge put to work
nick314.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 20, 2018 at 10:09:27 pm

Hi Melany -
you said "I went with 3 quotes". Your quotes mean nothing. If you don't get SOMEONE to help you, nothing will work.
IF you buy LumaForge - then LumaForge will help you. If you buy EditShare, EditShare will help you. If you buy Studio Network Solutions, then Studio Network Solutions will help you.

But you can't do a "quote" from the B&H Photo website, buy a Studio Network Solutions system, and then call SNS and say "hi, I just bought this from B&H - can you help me" - no one is going to help you. You buy from Studio Network Sotluions (for example), and get a support contract, and they will help you. That's the way it works.

With a product like QNAP or Synology, you hire someone like me.

Companies like LumaForge are wonderful - and they will help you, because you are paying them as part of the purchase for the installation. These types of purchases do not happen from a "quote" from a mail order on line company.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 20, 2018 at 10:58:35 pm

Hey thanks for your effort to help me here.

Quotes are from Lumaforge, ProMax and SNS EVO. If we go with the Qnap system, you said it will be cheaper than others but I will need your help to configure it. Righ? How much? Is it a one time config or there is maintenance every month?

Have a great weekend!

Mel :)


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Apr 21, 2018 at 4:43:30 pm

sorry, but you will have to contact me privately.
LumaForge, Studio Network Solutions, and ProMax are all excellent companies, and all have excellent tech support.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X - Melany - give me your contact information
on Apr 25, 2018 at 12:53:14 am

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Melany Villeneuve
Re: QNAP FCP X - Melany - give me your contact information
on Apr 26, 2018 at 7:31:53 pm

Thanks Bob!


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J.Patrick Southern
Re: QNAP FCP X - Melany - give me your contact information
on Apr 27, 2018 at 5:16:49 pm

Hey Melany! Patrick from LumaForge here. Just wanted to assure you that you are correct, the Jellyfish is essentially plug and play. With the Jellyfish App, you simply need to connect the Jellyfish to you computer, hit "Automatic Setup" and toggle which shares you want mounted.

As Bob and Nick mentioned, if you need high speeds and are on a Mac Laptop or 5K iMac, you will need a 10GbE to Thunderbolt adaptor. The iMac Pro has 10GbE built right in.

To clarify, the Jellyfish is, in fact, a video workflow server. All of it's features are aimed at getting you connected and collaborating as quickly as possible. We don't currently provide apps to remotely view your footage. This is true. We'd rather make sure you have great performance while editing within FCPX, Premiere, or Resolve, so that's where we focus our energy.

Happy to answer any questions you have.


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David Quan
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Jun 9, 2018 at 12:05:07 am

So I have four editors with direct connections to our TVS-1282T3 via thunder3 and most of them still report regular slowdowns on FCP 10.4.2. I'm considering rolling them back to 10.4 so we can make use of the thunder3 connections for the bulk of their work and let someone else on 10.4.2 handle changes and corrections. Any thoughts on that?

I know I could put them on 10G with the adapters since I already have two other editors on one port with a 10G switch (each getting 5G with two 2.5G ports open) and they're running smoothly. I just know I'm going to end up with two+ more editors in a few weeks and will have a need for the direct thunder3 sooner than later. Would connecting thunder3 adapter into the QNAP and sending 10G out to another adapter/iMac Pro 10G accomplish anything?

My great hope is Mojave might resolve the issue.... though I'm not holding my breath.


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Jun 9, 2018 at 9:00:07 pm

David writes -
I know I could put them on 10G with the adapters since I already have two other editors on one port with a 10G switch (each getting 5G with two 2.5G ports open) and they're running smoothly. I just know I'm going to end up with two+ more editors in a few weeks and will have a need for the direct thunder3 sooner than later. Would connecting thunder3 adapter into the QNAP and sending 10G out to another adapter/iMac Pro 10G accomplish anything?

REPLY -
I find your questions simply astounding. You see that the 10G ports work wonderfully. You are connecting
the other 2 computers with Thunderbolt 3, and suffering. A QNAP 10G switch - the QSW-1208-8C is $589, and because you have thunderbolt 3 computers, a Sonnet Solo 10G thunderbolt 3 to 10G adaptor is $177 each.
So you are saying "how come I can't get this to work" when the obvious fix is $589 + $177 + $177 = $943 to completely resolve your issues. Is this a matter of principal. Why it is important that thunderbolt bridging networking works, when 10G Ethernet works absolutely perfectly ?

With the Sonnet Solo 10G, you will get full 10G speeds, and you will have a 1000 MB/sec connection to your QNAP. Exactly what am I missing here ?

If Mojave resolves the thunderbolt bridging issue (which it won't - only Intel can resolve this) - are you actually going to wait to see if this works, instead of spending $943 right now to have four people working perfectly all at the same time ?

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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David Quan
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Jun 11, 2018 at 6:14:20 pm

Hey Bob,

I've actually already ordered additional adapters and another switch (we use the Netgear MS510TX and find it great at $350) knowing that we'll need them. My question now is -- knowing that I will have a need for additional connections -- has a tertiary solution been found for the thunderbolt connection? I'm certainly not against upgrading one of our switches, though I'm wary of bottlenecking a single 10G connection (not sure if that's justified by the data use of FCPX).

It's definitely helpful to know that Mojave won't likely solve the issue, so thanks for that.


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Jun 11, 2018 at 8:18:52 pm

well David - you have ordered the wrong switch.

As per here -
https://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart/MS510TX.aspx#tab-t...

you get four 1G ports, two 2.5 G ports, two 5G ports and one shared 10G/SFP+ port. So you will never get the proper speeds that you need.

It is beyond me that your joy in only spending $327.95, as opposed to $589 - and your savings of $262 is going to give you inferior performance on ALL of your computers. Please tell me exactly how long it takes to generate
$262 of revenue for your company. Perhaps you are a student film maker, and have no money.

People pay $199 per month for Blueprint LSAT, plus $200 for all initial materials. You are telling me that you could not get the extra $262 together. Do you not have one or two customers, so you can actually invest in your company ?

Let's just say that thunderbolt 3 network bridging actually worked well. With a distance limitation of 2 meters,
(the Cal Digit is the longest cable at 2 meters) -
http://www.caldigit.com/Thunderbolt-3-USB-C-Type-C-Charge-Cable/#Thunderbol...

do you actually run your professional editorial team all sitting around a desk, at a max distance of 6' away from each other ?

Am I being rude here, or are you being professionally crazy ?

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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David Quan
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Jun 11, 2018 at 10:03:58 pm

I'd say you're being extremely presumptive and objectively rude, but that's okay! I read your responses thoroughly prior to posting and knew more or less what to expect, but I'm willing to weather it in the interest of finding solutions.

The theory that lead to the MS510TX purchase was that a single 10G connection would max out with four people at 2.5G and the 2.5G x2 and 5G x2 covers those bases. But what I think you're telling me is that editing is an intermittent enough process that four+ people maxing out a single 10G line at any given moment is a rarity, enough so that not allowing a single user to have a full 10G connection is actually harming them more by not giving them greater speeds for the moments they need it. In essence, we put up walls in the garage so each car would have just enough space, but the cars are never all there at once and we could really use the space for the occasional bus?

In practice, editing through 2.5/5G ports hasn't given us a reason to doubt it, but if I can double the number of people running off of one 10G port without any discernible disadvantages, that would more than justify the cost.

I would of course be thrilled to put company revenue directly into the video production budget, but alas things don't always go the way I'd like.


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Bob Zelin
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Jun 11, 2018 at 11:03:44 pm

Hi David -
I will summarize what I am saying.
Imagine that your air conditioning stopped working.
Imagine that your car stopped working.
Imagine that your wife/girlfriend needed minor surgery.

And you could SOLVE your AC/auto/girlfriend issues for $262.

OH NO - I can save $262 - why would I care if I chance my car not working, my AC not working, my wife/girlfriend becoming more ill - I CAN SAVE $262.

If you were a student, I would not be so insulting. But I go see "amateur" bands every weekend - every Thursday and Friday night. These guys make $75 a night (about $300 - $400 for the entire band). And they have THE BEST equipment - the best Fender/Gibson guitars, the best drums, the best Yamaha/QSC PA systems. The best in ear monitors from Sennenheisser.

And here we are - a bunch of "professionals". Making "professional" money - I know exactly what you, or your company charges - it's on your website. And you posted that you are not getting the performance that you want.
And you can resolve this issue for TWO NIGHTS of playing that the local crappy bar that I hang out at, on Thursday and Friday nights - the SAME BAR that these guys have all this GREAT musical equipment.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU DAVID. Can you imagine that you signed up for UBER, and your tires were becoming bald, and you said "well, I can go to the tire store, and get four new Goodyear tires for $800 - but I will go to the getto, and get four patched tires for $200, and save $600 !!!! EXACTLY WHO on this Creative Cow forum would get into your cab ? Exactly who (Lyft, UBER, etc.) would hire you with FOUR BALD, PATCHED TIRES ? And WHO would ask "well, I hear there is this new gas additive that will reduce my fuel costs, so I am HOPING that in 2019, I can add this to my Ford Pinto UBER with bald tires, and REDUCE my expense for gas, so I can make more of a profit !

WHAT IS GOING ON HERE. Are we NOT PROFESSIONALS ? Is Creative Cow becoming a forum for people that have less money to invest than STUDENTS whose parents are typically spending $60,000 a year to get into our industry.
How much do parents of the students that are taking your LSAT program intend to spend, so their children can become legal professionals ? There was a recent post on the Blackmagic Forum, from a woman that was a legal aid professional, that wanted advice on Blackmagic equipment - yet she had no money, but she was a lawyer - (perhaps she paid $199 per month to take your LSAT course). I would like to get a will and power of attorney made up - can you advise me on how I can get this FOR FREE in exchange for setting up a network attached storage system ? If I advise her on how to put together a Blackmagic Design studio system for free within her budget, will she create a will and power of attorney for free for me ? After all - she is doing legal aid for FREE - can I get some free help here ? You are providing LSAT courses for $199 a month plus $200 startup fees. Can you do this for free if I show you how to do shared storage FOR FREE without spending that extra $269 to get the correct equipment, so that you can have all your editors do shared storage with your system ?

Exactly what can I get for free, if I can show you how to save $269 in total investment ?

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: QNAP FCP X Slowdown/Beachball Issue via Thunderbolt 3 & SMB 3 (TVS-1282T3)
on Jun 12, 2018 at 5:18:23 am

I think you're comparing network data flow with electricity through wires or water through pipes.
It doesn't work like that.

It is possible for, say, a storage, to 'feed' 10GigE to a 10GigE switch port (its not an input), and then provide 10GigE bandwidth to 10 machines all connected to the same switch via 10GigE cables to 10GigE ports (they aren't outputs).

Network switches 'distribute' data in a complex way that optimises bandwidth. They don't share data equally between ports.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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