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Giving Up

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Mike Maloney
Giving Up
on Jan 10, 2011 at 11:22:42 am

I have just about given up on capturing anything more than by using "capture now" on the BSR-50 Deck using a JVC GY-HD110 camera. More than 2 clips and the machine just won't read time code any continually throws errors at me. Slowing down work time considerably. I had the problems initially with anything that was HD content, now regular Firewire SD content throws the machine into spasms. And of course with capture "NOW" anything with a timecode break renders rigor mortis into the captures.

Any suggestions on how to cure this evil?

Mike Maloney
Maloney Marketing Group
maloneymarketinggroup.com
beartoothrecording.com
mmg.bz


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Jeffrey Carter
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 10, 2011 at 8:17:27 pm

I've heard that there are continual problems with JVC HDV decks (I have a DV3000 - some problems, but does work with DV footage).

Try using a generic firewire in (with no deck control). I use a Firestore to avoid the tape hassles. Your best option, if you can afford it, is to use that or similar hard disk recorder.

"I've never been there but the brochure looks nice."


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Mike Maloney
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 10, 2011 at 9:48:33 pm

Thanks for that, I'll disconnect the deck control. Never know.


Mike Maloney

Mike Maloney
Maloney Marketing Group
maloneymarketinggroup.com
beartoothrecording.com
mmg.bz


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 10, 2011 at 11:26:27 pm

Jeffrey
"I've heard that there are continual problems with JVC HDV decks (I have a DV3000 - some problems, but does work with DV footage)."

That is anecdotal evidence of a non-existent problem, and is just flaming a product you don't use or own. It would be better to stick with facts when posting a work-around for a 'know issue' based on YOUR experience.

I have both the above mentioned JVC products, and have no problems with either one.
As I said in responding to the original poster on this thread, there is a lot of user caused errors that are being written off as bad gear. There is a major lack of information in the workflow, materials, troubleshooting steps, etc in the original thread, and know way to be sure that is indeed an equipment failure. Just because someone badmouths a piece of gear, is not a conclusive fact that said gear is faulty.

Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 10, 2011 at 11:07:48 pm

"I have just about given up on capturing anything more than by using "capture now" on the BSR-50 Deck using a JVC GY-HD110 camera. More than 2 clips and the machine just won't read time code any continually throws errors at me. Slowing down work time considerably. I had the problems initially with anything that was HD content, now regular Firewire SD content throws the machine into spasms. And of course with capture "NOW" anything with a timecode break renders rigor mortis into the captures.

Any suggestions on how to cure this evil?"


I wish you would include some specifics as to your platform, workflow, and what exactly is the problem.
IMHO 99% of HDV problems are 'pilot error', of some type. That would include not understanding the nature of HDV GOP, unrealistic expectations, etc.
It would be nice to know what tape stock you are using, once again I'm pointing out that if you expect help, details of exactly what has been done are essential.
Have you tried searching this forum? These type of issues and potential solutions have been covered ad nauseam.
I have both the 110U and BR-50, and have had no problems whatsoever capturing HDV via FW in the last 4 years.

Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


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Ken Jones
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 11, 2011 at 2:17:38 am

Are you using Final Cut Pro? My deck isn't a JVC, but I have a Sony HVR-1500 HDV deck and it won't capture reliably to FCP via either firewire or HD-SDI/RS422. On the other hand, it will capture perfectly to Premiere every time, 100% of the time.


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Mike Maloney
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 11, 2011 at 3:20:23 pm

Be happy to give you a run down.

First, Camera is the JVC GY110.
Second the Deck is the BSR - 50.
I use a KONA LH card for capture.
I always use a Firestore now, which eliminates most of these issues, but I still periodically must go back to tape if the Firestore didn't get programmed correctly. We also shoot both.

We used FCP 6.06, Mac G5, 8 Gb Ram. 2.7 dual processors, etc, with SATA 2 TB Drive for capture.2

In attemtpting to capture several clips, the BSR usually goes into a Non capture mode after the first clip. Whatever that clips name is slated as, it will contine to capture, almost randomly with all the clips with a numeric code after each clips such as "Dancing Clip" Dancing Clip-1, Dancing Clip -2, etc. overwriting what would have been the original capturing editors dialog.

This has been used primarily with component out of the machine and deck control. We prefer this method and, it's the only method allowing us to work in HD. Capture in HD is essentially the same.


I have been able to take my same tape and drop into my older SONY DVCAM deck and capture successfully with firewire on most projects. But that machine has limitations and will not allow HD captures.

The machine has NOT always done this. In fact, when we first installed the unit, we could capture without error all day.....progressively this problem has become worse over time.

So, we capture, when necessary with "capture" now, one clip at a time and must retitle each clip.

Not sure if you thought I was flaming JVC because I am not. I am merely frustrating with the deck as it is not peforming as it should. I have contacted JVC 2 times about this problem and they insist that there is nothing wrong with my machine rather in my set up.

But while set up has a little to do with capture, repeated time code breaks, or errors in finding time code when they are clearly on the tape and can be read by another machine are a machine problem.
And yes, I've cleaned the heads.

Any other thoughts?

Thanks for any wisdom.


Mike Maloney

Mike Maloney
Maloney Marketing Group
maloneymarketinggroup.com
beartoothrecording.com
mmg.bz


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Mike Maloney
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 11, 2011 at 3:28:51 pm

Oh, Tape Stock was mentioned: JVC ProHd for HD/DV. We use exclusively.

Mike Maloney
Maloney Marketing Group
maloneymarketinggroup.com
beartoothrecording.com
mmg.bz


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Ken Jones
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 11, 2011 at 3:45:55 pm

Have you tried capturing using the AJA VTR Xchange application? What kind of results do you get with it?

I don't have an AJA card. I have a Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme and a Sony HVR-1500. My experience has been that FCP will not capture HDV clips reliably. On the other hand, the Blackmagic Media Express application and Adobe Premiere will both capture HDV perfectly, 100% of the time.

Oddly enough, FCP will capture Mini-DV and DVCAM perfectly, 100% of the time.


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Mike Maloney
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 11, 2011 at 6:21:52 pm

I had not tried the AJA VTR Exchange until today. Works satisfactorily, somewhat surprising flexibility. Could be an easy answer to other issues in capture. Anxious to try some HD 24p.


Mike Maloney

Mike Maloney
Maloney Marketing Group
maloneymarketinggroup.com
beartoothrecording.com
mmg.bz


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Ken Jones
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 11, 2011 at 7:28:46 pm

You can view some of my previous posts. Even though I use a different deck and capture card it might shed some light on your situation.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1007581#1007581

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1075613#1075627


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 11, 2011 at 8:44:19 pm

Mike
"I have been able to take my same tape and drop into my older SONY DVCAM deck and capture successfully with firewire on most projects. But that machine has limitations and will not allow HD captures."

Sony and JVC HDV are two different formats. So even if your older Sony deck was an HDV model, it wouldn't play your tapes.
The ability to capturing DV is not an effective benchmark of your system for HDV work. All that does is confirm your FW is working.

"Oh, Tape Stock was mentioned: JVC ProHd for HD/DV. We use exclusively."

OK, but why do you have a Sony deck? Are you saying you have never used Sony tape in either the deck or camera? This is not a flame on Sony. In the past Sony tapes had a lube that was incompatible with JVC/Panasonic/Fuji tape lubes. If that deck (or any other) was used with Sony tape in the past then there is a chance that you have spread that lube to other gear contaminating it. Especially if you clean the tape path infrequently.
And are these tapes are new? Do not reuse DV tapes. I know people do, but they are cheap and not robust like a Betacam or U-Matic tape that can be used over and over.
Do you regularly (and properly) use a JVC cleaning tape on the deck and camera?
Does the person that shoots your material have a habit of taking the deck out of Record and 'checking' the tape? This can put unwanted wear at the point on the tape where the re-cue occurs. Also if the process of re-cuing the tape isn't done properly it can cause TC flutter, or breaks. And of course this is happening at the same point on the tape where you are most likely to try and capture your clip.

"In attemtpting to capture several clips, the BSR usually goes into a Non capture mode after the first clip. Whatever that clips name is slated as, it will contine to capture, almost randomly with all the clips with a numeric code after each clips such as "Dancing Clip" Dancing Clip-1, Dancing Clip -2, etc. overwriting what would have been the original capturing editors dialog."

It sounds like you are capturing off the tape in a clip by clip style. You didn't say what your pre-roll is, or if you were using 'time of day', or free-running TC.
Free running TC can cause problems on HDV, use at you own risk.
Pre-roll has a lot of influence over the process on HDV due to the GOP structure. And it isn't a case of more is better. Too much can put you too far back and confuse the capture machine. Too little and the tape is not up to speed.
Actually, capturing on a clip by clip basis is not the way to go. It effectively doubles the wear on the machine per tape captured, and puts much back and forth strain on the tape and transports. It causes many more opportunities for a wrinkle, or to miss a clip due to TC or pre-roll issues.
The best way is to go is capture the entire tape as one clip, in one pass. Just set your IN at the beginning of your material, and your OUT at the end of the tape and capture that clip. (actually don't even rewind the tape, and get the OUT point first) No matter how you have FCP set up, it will still split this one clip into many at any TC break, or camera start. Then you can screen, and further separate your material into separate clips, and Media Manage the unwanted footage. This not only greatly reduces the amount of head time, and transport use, but it means there is only one pre-roll/capture cycle to go bad.
You didn't mention how many hours your deck and camera have on them. These machines do not have an infinite lifespan. They also have a major service interval based on the number of hours.

I'm sure that I'm making it sound as if HDV is fragile. It is.
The tape is small, the head is small in diameter, the transport is small. It records in a compressed format that any one missing frame in a group of 6 (JVC) or 15 (Sony) wipes out all the frames from that group, and usually the following group.
I see people all the time treat HDV gear like it is Beta. Lots of shuttling, reusing tapes, knocking it around, use in dirty environs, etc.
There is a price to pay for HDV's compact camera size, low cost, compact cassette, and low storage space requirement. That price is that it should be handled much more carefully to get the best results.


"I use a KONA LH card for capture.
I always use a Firestore now, which eliminates most of these issues, but I still periodically must go back to tape if the Firestore didn't get programmed correctly. We also shoot both.

We used FCP 6.06, Mac G5, 8 Gb Ram. 2.7 dual processors, etc, with SATA 2 TB Drive for capture.2
"

I didn't see what OS version your running. Have you done your Pro-Aps update? How about the OS? Have you updated the card driver?
I use a Mac Pro that has it's own FW port, and don't have any issues, but you might have update/driver issues.
HDV is processor intensive, and your on a G5. When capturing are you trying to do other work?
How full is your capture drive? Once they get 3/4 full performance decreases.
Are you trying to capture to your system drive? I hope not.

"Not sure if you thought I was flaming JVC because I am not. I am merely frustrating with the deck as it is not peforming as it should. I have contacted JVC 2 times about this problem and they insist that there is nothing wrong with my machine rather in my set up."

No, but I thought another poster was flaming based on "what he heard".
As far as the deck not performing, again I ask how many hours your deck and camera have on them.
It could be the camera, the tape, your workflow, your computer, the deck, or a combination.
And what did JVC say was wrong with your set-up?

I'm not sure if any of this actually applies in your situation, but once you eliminate all the possible causes, whatever is left is probably the problem(s).

Scott Sheriff
Director
SST Digital Media
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


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Mike Maloney
Re: Giving Up
on Jan 12, 2011 at 12:20:51 am

Thank you for an extraordinary amount of input. It is certainly appreciated. Your suggestions will be heeded. As you should know, this is not a new venture, but one developed over 18 years of shooting and posting. We have run a gamut of issues and problems of the years and I've not posted on the Cow for quite sometime relying on our skill and expertise. I found an issue that was problematic and troublesome and I appreciate someone, in earnest, taking the time out of their day to help address the issues. I hope I can return the favor someday. I am a dead aim at Pro Tools should you ever need help in the audio arena.

OH BTW, the old SONY DVCAM machine was one of the first machines we purchased (along with our trusty Beta SP1800) it just does a grand job when everything else goes awry.

Mike Maloney

Mike Maloney
Maloney Marketing Group
maloneymarketinggroup.com
beartoothrecording.com
mmg.bz


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