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Dan Magnafichi
JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 27, 2009 at 6:42:16 pm

Hello All, long time listener, first time caller. I'm buying a new FCP Studio NLE system and have 2 options in mind for a camera.

Option 1: JVC GY-HD 200 - This gives me the option to record on tape and with the addition of a DR-HD 100 Hard Disk Drive simultaneously record to the drive with a FCP "Native" Quick Time wrap around so that supposedly I can copy clips directly into my FCP browser and/or timeline. Has anyone out there had any experience with using this configuration?

Option 2: JVC GY-HD 700 - This camera has gotten rave reviews from many sources and does the Quick Time wraparound in the camera and records to SDHC cards only. As an old dog trying to learn new tricks I'm still a little leery about not having a tape back-up.

I would greatly appreciate any input from people who have had experience with either of these cameras and integration with Final Cut Pro 7.


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Johnny Clark
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 27, 2009 at 11:34:31 pm

If those are your only contenders than get the hm700. The HD200 isn\'t aging well as you probably have seen throughout these threads.
The form factor rocks on both models.
The focus enhancements hard drive ruins the audio and adds a sick hiss when recording to QT format so m2t is manditory so in the end there is no native format from the hd200. Maybe others have had different experiences but things like blown FireWire ports and limited support from jvc really stink.
I vote hm700 from the two choices you gave.


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Dan Magnafichi
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 28, 2009 at 2:37:35 pm

Thanks guys, has anyone else had the audio problems with the hard drive conversion files? I'm reletively new to all this so please excuse my ignorance but is the JVC DR-HD100 the same as the Focus Enhancements HD that Johnny mentioned and what is m2t?


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Johnny Clark
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 28, 2009 at 3:41:12 pm

Hey Dan,
m2t is a file format like QT is a file format. you can choose on the DRHD100 which format you want to record to. Since QT wrecks the audio you're kind of stuck with the m2t option as it does not.
My QT audio experience with the DRHD100 was pitiful at best. There are lots of threads coving this here on the COW and elsewhere so be sure to know what you may be getting into before thinking its the be all end all solution.
I sent the drive to Focus 3 times thinking it was a flaw and they ended up pretty much telling me to deal with it... I bought it with intentions similar to yours and sold it never wanting another Focus product.

Then when the firewire port blew on the JVC camera I had no way to get the footage from the tapes so I had to send the camera to JVC and they took many weeks to even get back to me.

Like I said, others may have wonderful praises for this setup (hd200 and drhd100), I do not!


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Dan Magnafichi
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 28, 2009 at 6:29:31 pm

Thanks Johnny, I just spoke with the equipment dealer I'm buying from and he said they would not sell me the GY-HD200 bundled with the DR-HD100 because of other clients who've had issues with the Firestorm units. Looks like I'm leaning towards the HM700 now, but it's a big leap for me to go completely tapeless.


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Phil Balsdon
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 27, 2009 at 11:40:53 pm

Double post. See my response on the Final Cut Pro forum.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1055400#1055400

Cinematographer, Steadicam Operator, Final Cut Pro Post Production.
http://www.steadi-onfilms.com.au/


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Byron Goggin
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 30, 2009 at 12:58:06 pm

Beware: A couple things related to the 700. I have won 13 Emmys for photojournalism and shoot for Discovery Channel, Nat Geo and PBS. Im not beating my chest, just giving cridentials. Here is some advice from the professional side.

Overall, I really like the camera, however it has some flaws. I have found that there are some recording issues with this camera. Most who test and use this camera, I assume, are only recording for a short time. I have experienced that if you record for any significant amount of time that the recording will eventually stop. I have tried different brands of recommended cards and still have the same issue. Not so cool when you are recording a one time only event and the camera stops recording. JVC reps have no answer at this point. They gave me a new camera and the new one is doing the same thing.

I love the idea of multiple record formats, that is why I purchased it. The problem comes with this: If you use the native quicktime format and record in any of the 1080I selections you have to deal with the Long GOP format. If you are unaware, this is a terrible format to edit in. A simple dissolve can take upwards of 30 seconds to render. More difficult transitions, or multiple layers of video is an even longer render process.

As most FCP users know editing in PRO Res 422 is the hot set up for most day to day projects. Unfortuneately, the formats that JVC provides does not allow you edit in PRO Res unless you go through an endless render process. Sony has a brilliant transcoder for XD cam and it works awesome! JVC needs to acknowledge the problem and make a similar software product. Also, you cannot use the log and transfer feature of the FCP which is a huge deal to most editors.

If you are a news shooter, or just want to string some cuts only stuff together this is a great camera, but if you are using this for professional needs that involves true post production, you may want to look at something else or wait for the 2nd generation.

Anybody want to buy a like new JVC 700? Let me know. I'll give you a good price.


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Dan Magnafichi
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 30, 2009 at 3:57:55 pm

Thanks for your input Byron. Concerning the stopping recording issue, what is a "considerable amount of time"? 1 hour... 2 hours... or more?

Concerning "ProRes" editing, the newest literature says the 700 uses QuickTime as its native file format and that clips can be dragged directly into FCP "ready for editing - no file wrapping, no transcoding, no waiting." Is ProRes a different file format? And is this only when shooting in 1080i? As far as the log and capture function, is it necessary if your files come into FCP as clips based on record start and stop times?

Sorry about all the questions but I'm an old "Tape" guy that is now just getting into HD and tapeless production and post.


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Mark Salloum
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 30, 2009 at 4:56:58 pm

Thanks for your feedback as I am very close to buying one of these 700 cameras. My two questions are this: First, how long into the recording time to you see the camera stop? Is it the same point (in time) every time? Next, we have edit bays with Edius on PC computers. Do you happen to know if we'll be dealing with the same complications that FC users have? Thanks in advance for your response.


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Phil Balsdon
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Sep 30, 2009 at 10:18:31 pm

When recording long takes using the JVC HD200 camera (or 100 versions) with a DR HD100 Firestore drive the files will be limited to 1.95Gb, however when this limit is reached a new file is created and no frames are lost. In post these files can be edited together with no lost frames and there will be a duplicate on the tape.

If the tape runs out the camera will continue to record to the DR HD100.

Cinematographer, Steadicam Operator, Final Cut Pro Post Production.
http://www.steadi-onfilms.com.au/


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Jon Leyse
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Oct 1, 2009 at 12:06:51 am

Hey guys,
Great discussion on the 700. I've been using one for 4 months now and love it. I switched from tape and so far haven't missed it one bit. The image quality is great, the form factor is nice and the workflow has been a real plus. I've probably run over 1 TB of video through my SDHC cards.

I've not run into the camera stopping recording after a long period of time. I know I've recorded several sessions that were 1.5 hours long with no problems. I know some guys have had trouble with different SDHC cards. Apparently not all class 6 cards are the same. I've been using SanDisk and Transcend with no problems. I even did one shoot in over 100 degree heat in the direct Dallas sun with the rain slick on to keep the dust out. The camera was so hot I could barely touch it but it kept recording all day long. (The photographer's camera quit due to the heat.)

As far as work flow goes, I just drag the files onto my hard drive and then directly into FCP. No log and capture needed for what I do, so it is great.

I did some testing and the 1280x720 60p at the Highest Quality looks much better than the 1080i formats. So I've switched to using this progressive format with great results. I've not needed to use any of the ProRes formats. The 1280x720 60p edits fine in FCP. The render times are normal and so are the exports. I've also edited on an older Mac Book Pro without any trouble.

There are a few things I would like to have (interval recording, 1/2" CCD, another ND filter), but bang for the buck it is a great tool.

Jon


Jon Leyse
Crash 31, LLC
http://www.crash31.com


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Dan Magnafichi
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Oct 1, 2009 at 1:18:14 am

Thanks Jon, it's good to finally see some good news. I really hope there are more like you out there.


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Chris Mendes
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Oct 1, 2009 at 4:21:05 am

I got the HM 700 camera a couple of months ago and haven't had the " stopping" problem so far. I'm currently working on a doco and have been rolling almost 8 hrs a day nonstop, with 2 cards loaded in the camera at all times. Recorded about 100 hrs so far MP 4 format and haven't encountered any problems.
I use only Transcend or Sandisk cards. So far so good.


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Dan Magnafichi
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Oct 1, 2009 at 12:50:22 pm

Thanks Chris, in order to record in the MP4 format do you have to use the optional SxS media recorder? Have you done any editing yet? If so what type of edit system are you using?


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Jon Leyse
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Oct 1, 2009 at 1:29:39 pm

Dan,

They released a firmware update for the 700 that allows you to record in .mp4 format without the SxS recorder. The lawyers between JVC and Sony must have decided to get along.

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/support/productupdate.jsp

Jon


Jon Leyse
Crash 31, LLC
http://www.crash31.com


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Chris Mendes
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Oct 1, 2009 at 10:11:23 pm

Apparently you do not need to have the SxS back on to enable M
p4 recording anymore. JVC have firmware update In Sept to allow this so you don't need the back.
I have had stuff edited on FCP (Real Easy) and the Doc is being edited on an Avid ( little more work due to ingest). I think the Avid Editor had to down load some software for this.



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Byron Goggin
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Oct 4, 2009 at 8:53:52 pm

Don't get me wrong, I like the camera alot, but I guess I have not had the same results as a few of you have.

As I said, this is the 2nd camera I have had (JVC replaced it after seeing the problem themselves) and the issue remains. The stop times are arbitrary and can happen anywhere from 10 min to 25 when recording in 1920x1080i HQ. Does not have a pattern. I use the recommended Transcend cards. Perhaps I will try sandisc.

In regards to editing. True, you can import native Quicktime files but you will have to edit them in their native Codec ie: XDCAM EX 1080i60 (35Mb/s VBR)

Problem is two fold. If you try to mix footage from other formats into your timeline you will have fits with unplesant render times. Also if you import as ProRes422 you will save drive space by about 2/3.

ProRes422 is most "Post" editors choice as it allows you to take say 1920x1080 video and edit in a codec (timeline) that takes less overall drive space but enhanses the quality to actually look better that the original format...especially graphics..

I dont remember the exact numbers off the top of my head but say you had an hour of material shot in 1920x1080 it would take something like 18g. Drop that same material into a prores422 timeline and it would be like 1g.

This is phenominal for editing, workflow with other formats, delivery and archive purposes.

I now run through about 2Tb of drive space per month. Ouch!



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Marcello Mazzilli
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Oct 19, 2009 at 7:12:52 pm

I recorded a 1hour concert , it didn't stop and I didn't loose any frames.. in 1080 50i format. if this helps...

I have this camera since it came out (was one of the 1st to get it here in Italy).. around April 2009. Here is what I like and what I don't like. I have the optional SxS recorder that was bundled with the camera by JVC-Italy

I like... workflow on digital XDCAM (use MOV for Final Cut and MP4 for Premiere). I like the ability to shoot in many formats. I like the fact that is a real shoulder camera and the overall ergonomics. I like the HD-SDi output. I like the hot swappable SDHC cards (I use transcend). I like the quality of the picture. I like the LCD screen but you can use it only indoors (good resolution and colours but it's reflective)

I don't like... the noise in the picture in low light situations. The lenses I got bundled (the 16x and not the 17x). Sure as somebody says a 1/2 CCD would have been better. ND is crap but you can solve this with a mattebox.

I don't like the quality they made the camera... The SDHC card slots are quite plasticy. The LCD screen woobles (started after a week) and in my viewfinder a screw came out so now I cannot move it back or forward.

Overall I think is a good compromise. Looks and footage quality (with some attention) are good so clients are pleased.. and that's what counts I think.

Check this footage http://www.siroma.com/areariservata/ccow/hm700_selection.mov.zip It's converted to flash but I guess you can get the original quality.. Has not been graded

siRoma di Marcello Mazzilli
Corporate video productions in Italy
http://www.siroma.com


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Charlie Cogar
Re: JVC HD Camera Options
on Nov 4, 2009 at 4:59:10 pm

Dan et al,

I guess I'm last in respondents to Dan's original post.

I've never encountered any of the recording length problems, but I probably haven't shot anything longer than 30 minutes. I use Panasonic and RiData 16GB SDHC Class 6 cards without any problems, and I can recommend the camera as a good investment.

Yes, there are some "chintzy" aspects of the cam:
  • I seperate same-day shoots to Card A and Card B. The changeover toggle switch is too small and I need a positive "click."
  • During PB/shutting of clips on-location the navigation controls are in the way of the LCD panel (yes, of course unless you snap the LCD back into the cam).


The FCP workflow is greatly improved, and it is also my entry into tapeless production.

Hope this helps.


Charlie Cogar


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