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Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?

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Phil Lowe
Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 30, 2015 at 12:11:59 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 30, 2015 at 3:30:39 am

See subject. Need to be able to do this in browser up front. Is there a way to pan mono 1 to left and mono 2 to right in a dual mono set up without having to pan each clip individually on the timeline?


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Patrick Donegan
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 30, 2015 at 1:30:44 am

I have the same question.

As far as I have seen, I have to hand pan the 2 mono audio channels from my HVX-200,
and hand pan the 2nd set of audio channels also.

FCP X 10.2.2 - user since FCP 1.25
iMac mid 2011, MBA mid 2012
HVX-200, Shure wireless mic


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 30, 2015 at 6:16:10 am

This sounds like stereo (left right) and not dual mono.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 30, 2015 at 6:17:03 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 30, 2015 at 6:26:48 pm

Yes. Once you have the audio in dual mono mode, you still have to change the pan mode from none to stereo left/right. The problem is, you still actually have to pan the channels manually to the left and right to get them ro play back as split audio tracks (something, by the way, you don't have to do on a track-based system.) You can batch change the pan mode in the browser, and even put clips into dual mono mode. What I need to do is pan these split channels to the left and right for one simple reason: if you have to do it only when on the timeline, you have to do it for each clip you put down, so you have to leave the inspector open. But with the inspector open, you can't skim across multiple clips.

So apparently, the only way I've found to do what I need is to expand the audio components, open the audio animation tool, and pan each clips audio individually on the timeline. Not fast at all. In fact, I'd say it's half-fast compared to any track-based NLE around. They need to stop smoking crack down in Cupertino before programming this stuff!

I have a serious feature request for the next update on this iPhone editing app: put tracks back in it!!!

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Bret Williams
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 30, 2015 at 7:15:53 pm

Seems to be even worse in Premiere. All changes have to be made in the browser there. Once you place a mono track in the timeline in premiere, it's mono. No panning allowed. You'll find threads about it in the Premiere forum. The answer there is to match frame to the clip in the bin, change it's audio format, then reedit back into the sequence over the mono audio clip.

So that's better? I disagree.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 3:47:09 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 31, 2015 at 3:53:14 am

[Bret Williams] "Seems to be even worse in Premiere. All changes have to be made in the browser there. Once you place a mono track in the timeline in premiere, it's mono. No panning allowed. You'll find threads about it in the Premiere forum. The answer there is to match frame to the clip in the bin, change it's audio format, then reedit back into the sequence over the mono audio clip.

So that's better? I disagree."


I opened Premiere CC2015 and dropped a dual mono clip onto the timeline then panned channel 2 right and channel 1 left. But, more importantly, I opened the audio track mixer panning 1 fully left and 2 fully right and arrived at exactly where I want to be with FCPX: every clip in the bin set for dual mono with left and right panned audio. And I didn't have to do it clip-by-clip after having dropped it on the timeline.

Avid is even easier: drop channel 1 on any odd-numbered track and channel 2 on any even numbered track and - so long as your audio settings are set for alternating L/R tracks of mono clips, you will have exactly what I want and should expect from any NLE.

Whoever coded FCPX threw the baby out with the bathwater when it came to audio editing. IMHO.

I'll only add that I honestly don't see how Apple can continue to support this program much longer. It's too arcane for the iPhone/iPad crowd, and way too hobbled for pros. They either need to fix these issues or EOL it.

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Bret Williams
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 5:09:52 am

I think you're right on the Premiere front. What I was remembering is the way audio is in Resolve. But I swear I've seen numerous posts about similar issues in Premiere. In Resolve (track based) I can't do what you want. A mono clip can't be panned. It lets you pan it, but nothing happens. It's like they only half copied the way audio works in legacy and Premiere.

But in X I can do what you want in a few clicks. The difference seems hardly worth worrying about. Lasso select all the clips and open their components. Then lasso select all the components to adjust and pan as desired in the inspector. No need to do it clip by clip. See screenshot below.




Seems similar to the workflow with tracks. Maybe a few more clicks but on the upside there's no need to do track management and patching throughout the edit process so it seems like a pretty fair tradeoff.

And usually the issue would be much simpler than the above and could be accomplished with roles like mapping all sfx to channels 1/2, all VO/dialog to 3, and all NAT to 4, and all Music to 5 upon export.

Exporting:


And I tell ya, once you've got your roles set up it's really cool to be able to turn on/off (or even just highlight) video or audio roles in the sequence via the timeline index.

Index:


Turning on/off based on roles and exporting discreet channels based on roles are both advancements over track based systems. I could have 10 different roles in a single track (secondary) and have it output to 10 separate channels without the need for 10 separate tracks taking up space. You can even have those 10 roles export as 10 separate audio files. I'm not sure if Premiere can export each track as a separate file automatically.

X is definitely a different beast, but it roles are fully capable for track management (if not a little more advanced) and it's pretty simple to accomplish mass clip or channel pannings with components and the inspector.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 7:30:14 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 31, 2015 at 7:46:05 am

[Bret Williams] "Seems similar to the workflow with tracks."

Nothing at all like working with tracks in Avid. As I wrote before, put channel 1 audio on any odd numbered track and it's automatically on your left channel. Put channel 2 audio on any even numbered track and it's automatically on your right channel. Done. No messing with roles. No coming up with descriptive names and keypunching them in. No need to lasso anything on an Avid timeline just to name it or assign something to it. You're telling me about a lot of steps to do something that takes a lot fewer steps and a lot less time in other software. I will grant you that roles will (probably) do what I require, however - like everything else in this iPhone editing app - it looks like it will actually do it slower and less efficiently from a news editor's workflow perspective.







Once set as seen in the first 2 images, you never have to mess with panning anything again. Ever. Track patching, when needed, is a single, simple, click-drag move. There;s absolutely nothing about roles - that I see - that is either fast or intuitive.

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 4:21:00 am

[Phil Lowe] "hey need to stop smoking crack down in Cupertino before programming this stuff!
"


I'm still confused as to why you need to split the audio clip by clip and pan them. You have full capability of exporting discreet audio in FCPX without a whole lot of fuss.

If you are trying to separate, say, music/fx from the voice, you set Roles for each of those which can be done in a batch in the inspector, export a multitrack QT and add the Voice Role to a mono output channel and the Music/FX Role to a mono output channel and end up with discreet dual mono.

This is the beauty of fcpx. You can have stereo sources, mono sources, whatever. If your Roles are assigned properly, which is easiest to do before the edit (or right after import) you can assign each Role to a mono output channel, or assign it to multiple stereo channels, or fold everything down to one singular mono channel.

It is a different way from working than tracks, but what you need to do is possible with X without panning every single channel of every single clip.

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/344/33755#33755

Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 5:27:57 am

In messing around I even discovered another interesting thing about roles. Turning them on/off via the timeline index actually digs down INTO nested comps. So if you have a nested comp with 3 roles inside like titles, video, and dialog and you only want to see dialog and video and turn off titles, it will actually turn off the titles inside the nested comp. Much more powerful than I remembered. I would have thought it would either turn off the nest or leave it on. Not turn on and off parts of it inside. And if you jump inside the nest, it's all on. It only selectively turns them off/on based on the settings of the exterior comp. In fact you can even turn off different roles inside the next, but that will be ignored by the exterior comp. Amazing. Please show me how that is even close to possible within Premiere, Avid, Resolve, or even AE. Tracks just can't do that. Well, they could. There's no reason an app couldn't have both Roles AND tracks but nobody else is doing it. You'd think Adobe with all their continual advancement all the time would implement something similar. Or rig up an AE publishing system. They do have quite the advanced, cloud based, billing system though!


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 7:04:17 am

[Bret Williams] "Please show me how that is even close to possible within Premiere, Avid, Resolve, or even AE"

You can turn off track monitors or solo them in Avid to get the same effect. Roles sound unnecessarily complicated and a waste of time when you're under the gun.

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 7:00:38 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm still confused as to why you need to split the audio clip by clip and pan them"

In news, we have to split the narration from music and "nat sound" so that the nats can be repurposed as vo's or reused in packages. It's about archiving the footage for reuse later. Because we're on such tight deadlines, we don't have time to make a separate archival export. Every piece has to be cut as it will be archived. That's why this is critical.

Roles sound like a waste of precious editing time to me, and patching tracks, for as little as it needs to be done in a news piece, sounds a lot faster than tinkering under the hood. I'm an editor, not a programmer.

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Bret Williams
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 8:12:17 am

Outputting a multichannel file that plays back on air as a perfectly mixed stereo file would be of no use? The same file could be used as archival or for reediting in an NLE with completely discreet audio. In fact, I'm kinda wondering why I'm not exporting multichannel stereo files for every project now that I think of it.

But your main complaint about X was that it was difficult to pan individual mono tracks within clips. That you had to pan each clip individually. I demonstrated that was incorrect and specifically detailed the simple 10 second process to do what you wanted. Hopefully that had some value. Roles are just icing on the cake and an advanced feature that I haven't seen on track based editors. Setting up multichannel exports in legacy was quite a bit more difficult and limited compared to roles. From what I've seen Avid and Premiere haven't advanced that much since then. But if you don't like roles there's no need to use them. Especially if you don't have a use for file based multichannel output.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 8:41:16 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 31, 2015 at 8:51:06 am

[Bret Williams] "But your main complaint about X was that it was difficult to pan individual mono tracks within clips. That you had to pan each clip individually. I demonstrated that was incorrect and specifically detailed the simple 10 second process to do what you wanted."

You showed me how to do it after these clips were already on the timeline. I wanted a way to do it in the browser across every clip selected, so that the channels would play back separately (alternating left and right) without having to fuss with clips already on the timeline. As you can see by the attached screen cap, I have selected all 90 clips in my bin, and can change the channel configuration and panning mode, but panning them all to left or right affects both channels of audio. I want mono 1 left and mono 2 right, and want this at the browser level with all 90 clips selected. Now, is there a way to do this or not? I have tried disabling the track that I don't want to pan (unchecking mono 2) to pan only mono 1 left, but mono 2 still ends up on the left side of the mix. Premiere's track mixer can handle this. Why can't FCPX?

In short, I want this to work as simply and as efficiently as Avid's alternating L/R panning for mono tracks, which is nothing more than a check mark in a global audio setting. Do you see the value and efficiency in that?

Thank you for your help so far. I am extremely frustrated by this entire experience, and am trying not to take those frustrations out on people. (I do, however, reserve the right to complain and hold contempt for this ghastly and unwieldy piece of software!)



Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Bret Williams
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 3:10:41 pm

Click where it says dual mono and change that to stereo. Which is the very definition of what you are attempting to achieve. Channel one will be out the left speaker, and channel 2 will be out the right speaker.

If that's all you wanted to do I can't believe that's what all the fuss was about. I assumed you must have more than two tracks, because then you might have an issue if dual stereo wouldn't do what you wanted. I could forsee someone wanting ch 1 and ch 2 left and ch 3 rt and ch 4 left. Something like that would have to be done in the timeline. THAT would certainly be a legitimate and educated rant. But saying it can only be done in the timeline clip by clip misinformed, and hardly even worth worrying about once you're familiar with the software. The way I see it you can worry about where you're putting each clip during the edit (don't you do anything more complicated like a simple J or L cut where the rigorous track panned system doesn't really suit?) In 23 years of NLE editing I've never wanted to use that method. But I'm sure any new piece of software is frustrating in a fast paced environment if you're not familiar with it. Especially news.

I would think news would find other aspects of X helpful. Motion template publishing and rigging for graphics? Keywording?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 4:16:30 pm

Exactly. This is what I alluded to in the beginning.

You don't want dual mono, you want stereo.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 5:09:21 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 31, 2015 at 5:26:37 pm

[Bret Williams] "Click where it says dual mono and change that to stereo. Which is the very definition of what you are attempting to achieve. Channel one will be out the left speaker, and channel 2 will be out the right speaker.

If that's all you wanted to do I can't believe that's what all the fuss was about."


Yep. Have tried this over and over and here's what I get:





Sure, now each channel plays back on its own speaker, but both channels are combined in one track!!! How do you disable one or the other when you don't need both?!?

I'm NOT shooting iPhone video here, people! The cameras we use do NOT record stereo audio! They record DUAL MONO audio, which may be a wireless lav on channel 1 and a shotgun on channel 2! I need to be able to keep these DUAL MONO channels separate THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE POST PROCESS! Avid can do this quickly and simply. Same for Premiere, Vegas, and Edius. FCPX cannot???

So let me see if I understand this correctly. In FCPX, you can split recorded multi-channel audio into dual mono "tracks", but cannot batch pan them to left and right (as they were recorded), in the browser, as you can with changing the channel configuration and pan mode. Any such changes either have to be made on the timeline or through the use of "roles", which only affect export, not playback. Or, you can leave the tracks stereo, but have no control over one channel or the other, as stereo audio is not broken out into separate "tracks".

Wow! What a convoluted, overly-complicated POS (piece of software!) this is!

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Bret Williams
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 1, 2016 at 5:43:27 pm
Last Edited By Bret Williams on Jan 1, 2016 at 5:45:10 pm

So, as an example, can I assume the situation is something like you have a bunch of clips. Some are interviews or the newsperson and they need to have CH 2(stick mic) patched to track 1(panned left) for dialog, and the other clips are broll that needs to have NAT (camera mic) CH1 patched to track 2 (panned right) to keep the nat discrete for use in other productions/stories?

Have you tried highlighting a bunch of clips in the browser (the interviews for example), then in the inspector making sure it's mono, then turning off the track(s) you don't need, and then panning?

Like this:


That should accomplish what you want to a group of clips with about the same effort as setting up track patches. And, if for some reason down the road you decide you have the wrong channel in use for a particular clip or clips, you always have all the other channels available Instead of having to match frame and reedit. Wouldn't it be a hassle on Avid if you edited in 100 edits using only ch 1 and then realized you should have been using ch 2?

So it still seems like there's very little difference in the two scenarios of X vs. track based NLEs. In the track based scenario (for example) you like to have the CH2 patched to track 1 and track 1 be automatically panned left (which is set by the sequence). So you set up the patch once and edit away, with the exception of a few clips that might need a patching change (if you notice) or maybe a match frame and overwrite the clip with the correctly patched audio channel (if you didn't notice). Of course don't forget to change the patch back because it might f up your next 100 edits until you notice you're using the wrong patch settings.

In X, as suggested at the top of this post, I'd simply highlight all the shots in the browser, choose mono, and turn off the unneeded channels and then pan left or right as desired. One time. Across the board. (And those clips are all now correctly set for any editing in the future with no worries about patching or who is doing the edit.) Then, during editing, or later if I notice a channel is incorrect, I simply change the channel/pan in the inspector. No match framing/overwriting needed. And if I realize 100 clips are wrong, well it's just as easy to change 100 as it is 1. Not 100 match frames needed. I realize that's an exaggeration not likely to happen, but um.. interns, assistant editors, producers that think they can edit, and so on can foul up a rough cut in this sort of way. Especially if someone left the patches set wrong.

And if you wanted to use two channels from the clip and have them automatically left and right, then yes, you'd have to use stereo which would be a different selection as would having to adjust a patch to use both channels OR a tiny more work to open the compounds and pan each channel separately.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 2, 2016 at 12:38:23 am

[Bret Williams] "Have you tried highlighting a bunch of clips in the browser (the interviews for example), then in the inspector making sure it's mono, then turning off the track(s) you don't need, and then panning? "

Yep. As explained in an earlier post:

As you can see by the attached screen cap, I have selected all 90 clips in my bin, and can change the channel configuration and panning mode, but panning them all to left or right affects both channels of audio. I want mono 1 left and mono 2 right, and want this at the browser level with all 90 clips selected. Now, is there a way to do this or not? I have tried disabling the track that I don't want to pan (unchecking mono 2) to pan only mono 1 left, but mono 2 still ends up on the left side of the mix. Premiere's track mixer can handle this. Why can't FCPX?


Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Bret Williams
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 2, 2016 at 3:18:28 am

If you want to use just 1 channel from your footage, then you can pan all the channels left or right and turn off the channels you don't need. That's what I just described.

If you need both channels from your footage in your edit, then you can leave them dual mono and pan the components in the timeline as I demonstrated in my first post way back.

You could also leave them stereo, but if you need to adjust the channel volume separately you'll have to dive into components.

That's your options. They seem pretty quick and easy but I don't have much use for them in my cat and skateboarding vids on YouTube. Please subscribe!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 2:18:48 pm

You say that roles represent precious lost editing time, yet you're trying to select everything and pan them.

You can do the same with Roles.

If you don't want to use X the way it was designed, you are going to lead yourself to a path of frustration

I understand the need for split tracks. I work with stems and need to create archives with split audio for later retrieval and repurpose. There's has not been one NLE that has been easier to do this from and make all kinds of masters from one singular timeline without having to Tetris everything around and make multiple master timelines.

The difference between tracks and trackless is that the tracks define the output channels. With trackless the output channels are defined on export and they might require the use of Roles.

If you need to define Roles on audio components in a batch and don't want to do this on a timeline, look here:

http://fcpxpert.net/2015/07/15/geekco-role-o-matic-batch-set-multichannel-a...


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 5:44:16 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You say that roles represent precious lost editing time, yet you're trying to select everything and pan them."

Yep. Once and done, something you don't even have to do in Avid. Fancy that!

[Jeremy Garchow] "With trackless the output channels are defined on export and they might require the use of Roles."

I need to keep the channels split throughout the entire post process, from ingest to export, not just export. Apparently, there is no quick and easy way to do this without a plug-in or keypunching metadata. Got it. Thanks.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you don't want to use X the way it was designed, you are going to lead yourself to a path of frustration "

X was clearly not designed for news. Or news editors. It was designed for mall rats to edit their selfie-videos on their iPhones and upload them instantly from anywhere in the world to anywhere on the web, just by dragging their clips around. After all, who needs split audio for that? O.o

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Dec 31, 2015 at 7:15:17 pm

It's very obvious you don't need or want help. You'd prefer to troll.

You want it to work like Avid, it doesn't.

What you want to do is available in fcpx, you just refuse to do it.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 1, 2016 at 1:19:18 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 1, 2016 at 11:01:02 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's very obvious you don't need or want help. You'd prefer to troll.

You want it to work like Avid, it doesn't.

What you want to do is available in fcpx, you just refuse to do it."


There's absolutely nothing I would love to do more than forget I'd ever heard of FCPX. Unfortunately, I can't. So I came here (again) looking for a SIMPLE fix to deal with dual mono source clips. It's clearly not your fault that Apple's "pro" NLE can't deal with dual mono sources as well as any other NLE out there. (I guess that's too much to ask for $300, eh?)

Trackless is just plain pointless if a 21st century NLE can't handle something as simple as this as a 1990 Avid can.

But thanks anyway.

And then there's this:

"Until they release a version with a dedicated workflow for dual-mono, I don't see X as a good choice for news. Right now, everything is based on stereo, and keeping dedicated channels for reporter tracks, SOTs and nat sound is almost impossible to do in a timely manor. Don't get me wrong, there are workarounds for almost everything (as noted, lifting your track from the storyline and use your primary storyline for sots/nats is a decent solution) but workarounds take time. There's a lot I like about X, but if I'm slamming together a PKG at the last second, it's not a good tool. As an Apple certified trainer for FCP X, I've really, really tried hard to like it for news, but I'm just not there yet."

http://www.b-roll.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28445

News departments are using FCPX for one reason: it's cheap. There are certainly better tools for editing news than FCPX.

And yes, it's OK to admit when you don't have the answer to my question.

Update: just put in a feature request to Apple for dedicated audio tracks in FCP X. It needs them. Badly.

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 1, 2016 at 9:05:29 pm

[Phil Lowe] "
And yes, it's OK to admit when you don't have the answer to my question"


For the bird time, the answer to your question is Roles.

You set a role for voice, a role for music, and export your timeline with 2 channels of audio one that is voice and one for music.

This gives you discreet channels of dual mono. It is so fall down easy, the answer is literally in front of you.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 1, 2016 at 10:34:33 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 2, 2016 at 12:55:24 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "For the bird time, the answer to your question is Roles.

You set a role for voice, a role for music, and export your timeline with 2 channels of audio one that is voice and one for music."


Does assigning roles pan the tracks during the edit or just export? If just export, it only solves half the problem, because we have to edit the way we archive. If only export, you're still reduced to manually panning channels on the timeline. Oh, and when the inspector is open, you can't skim across multiple clips in the browser! May as well be working in FCP7 at that point.

Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 1, 2016 at 11:25:43 pm

Why would you need to pan when your goal is dual mono?

There is no pan in mono. It is mono. Singular, one discrete channel.

If you reimport the master, you turn off the channel you don't want. Done.

No one is going to listen to the voice coming out of the left side only. For editors, all we need is discrete audio for later remix or repurpose. Fcpx allows you to do this in spades.

A two track master with voice "panned left" and music "panned right" is the exact same thing as having voice on one channel and music on another.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 2, 2016 at 12:31:59 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 2, 2016 at 1:25:01 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "No one is going to listen to the voice coming out of the left side only."

The viewer hears the correct mix coming from the transmitter! But we, in news, edit with discretely panned left and right channels so that we can both monitor these channels independently and output for archive and reuse!

Again, this is something that is a default setting in Avid!



Want channel 1 lav mic left? Just put it on channel 1! No renaming tracks. No assigning roles for export! I actually got a response to my feedback from Apple. Know what Apple's response to this issue was?

"...you can use separate roles for the camera mic and shotgun, and then export the completed project as a Multitrack QuickTime Movie."

No one on a news deadline is going to export camera clips out to QT (or XML) and reimport them just to get discretely panned audio! It really does reflect a glaring ignorance of broadcast news workflows!

It's clear no one here has ever edited news, so it was probably my mistake to bring this issue here.

Just for grins, I tried one more go at this.

I took all 90 clips and created a compound clip out of them. I expanded the audio, selected it, then set its channel config to dual mono. I then set the pan mode to "stereo left/right", and panned ch.1 left and ch. 2 right. I then marked an in and out on the compound clip and dropped it into my package timeline, at which point all my prior audio editing was completely undone!

Done with this POS for now. I think I want my money back from Apple!


Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 2, 2016 at 2:54:22 am

We are going around in circles.

Sorry, it doesn't seem that you can get it working but discrete audio is absolutely possible in X.

"News", that is, two simple channels of discreet audio can be, imported, edited and exported in X.

It may require a different workflow than you are used to, it may looked different than a track based system, it may take some getting used to. Or not. It may never work for you.


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Phil Lowe
Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
on Jan 2, 2016 at 4:44:20 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 2, 2016 at 5:00:45 am

I've returned to editing this package I've started several times now, looking for that magical speed increase the guys at Apple swear is there...

"The editing team behind the Warner Bros. feature Focus found they are editing three times faster than in any other NLE"


Not only do I not find it any faster than editing in Avid, I'm actually slower in it, panning and disabling channels in the inspector as I lay each shot into the timeline (which is precisely why I was looking for an upfront fix a la Avid's alternating L/R mono tracks!). The skimmer is just a royal PITA. I wouldn't mind it so much for skimming a clip in the browser (can't skim across multiple clips with the inspector open, however), but timeline skimming is distracting when there are other navigational tools that are more precise (and I use that term loosely). Even with snapping on, I find I'm constantly having to zoom in on edit points to make sure things are lining up, and then zooming back out (SHIFT-Z) to see the big picture again!

Way too much fussing with minutiae to be fast in this app!

That said, I think I have a workflow that may work:

  • Use Voiceover tool to record reporter track straight to timeline.

  • Edit out bad takes and dead air, then drop to secondary, leaving a gap on primary.

  • Pieces that start with track, drag to beginning of timeline on secondary timeline. Pieces that start with SOT/Nats, drop into primary with insert/overwrite.

  • Repeat process of dropping bites on primary and dragging tracks on secondary until all the sound is down.

  • Finish by b-rolling with overwrites on primary or connects on secondary as needed.


  • It's always best to address audio issues after dropping a shot onto the timeline. Failing to fix problems at that moment and moving on means you may not remember to fix it later, especially as the pressure builds to get the piece sent to the playback server!

    Not fast at all at this point, but it is doable. Absolutely no need for roles, keywords, or favorite/rejecting, and all the primary sound is panned left, while all the nats is panned right: just down and dirty cuts editing with some dissolves. That's a basic news package.



    I'd only add that in the time it took me to get the piece this far in FCPX, I would've had it done, sent to playback, and moving on to next project in Avid. I'll still take tracks over trackless any day of the week.

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 2, 2016 at 6:30:24 am
    Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 3, 2016 at 11:37:21 pm

    Finished.



    Slower than Avid. Significantly slower.



    And the same package edited in Media Composer. Much faster. When I see audio on tracks 1 & 3, I know at a glance it's primary (channel 1/left) audio. When I see it on track 2, I know at a glance, it's nats. No messing with roles. No trying to figure out where all my audio is by going clip-by-clip through the inspector. Simple and elegant. Of course, the problem with it is kids using iMovie to edit their selfies will never get it, but there's a reason Avid has been used to edit more feature-length films and news packages than any other NLE around: I could hand this story off to another editor who could see - at a glance - exactly what's going on with the audio being given absolutely no other information about the piece. Or I can come back to it in 6 months and know, at a glance, exactly what I did with the audio. I seriously doubt anyone using FCPX can do that without first consulting all their metadata.

    Whatever. Different strokes, I guess. I'm just glad I only have to use iMovie Pro for news.



    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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    Bret Williams
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 4:20:58 am

    Why did you apply a gain filter?

    What did you mean by you can't skim across multiple clips when the inspector is open? You said that multiple times and I haven't the foggiest what you meant. There are no limitations to anything when the inspector is open. I pretty much never close the inspector. People say to close it for better performance, but that's where you DO everything.

    Are you outputting to tape? That is the ONLY reason I can figure you're outputting with stuff isolated right and left. Doesn't your station output in stereo? I can't believe you're working in a mono transmission TV station in 2016. Even in the days when I edited like you but on tape we sure didn't monitor with our channels panned left and right. That provides an inaccurate mix. We monitored in mono mix. Hearing the channels independently out of different speakers is just no way to determine a mix. Sure won't help with determining if one signal has a phase cancellation or if one eq is messing with the other. Sounds like you're editing just mic and nat. Which means you should be able to set up all your interview shots in the browser mono, select the single channel you need (others off), panned one way. Then do the same for all your nat, and just pan that channel to the other side. Then edit away. The only adjustments you'd make in timeline would be volume as you go along. You never answered if you use more than 1 channel from any shot. You kept saying you needed both channels separated, but all your examples involve two channels of output, L&R which I assume care coming from different sources, mic & nat. Correct?

    So if you're not outputting to files? Isn't that a time suck?


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 5:43:28 am
    Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 3, 2016 at 5:54:23 am

    [Bret Williams] "Why did you apply a gain filter?"

    Because the audio was too low at one point for +12dB gain on the clip volume. I had to take it higher than +12dB.

    [Bret Williams] "What did you mean by you can't skim across multiple clips when the inspector is open?"

    At one point, I had a single column of clips and couldn't skim from one to another without moving my mouse down a line. It always happened when the "inspector" was open, so took that as a limitation. I now see that clips on the same row can be skimmed across even with the inspector open.

    [Bret Williams] "Are you outputting to tape?"

    File.

    [Bret Williams] "Doesn't your station output in stereo? I can't believe you're working in a mono transmission TV station in 2016. "

    Local broadcast content is broadcast in mono. Network content is broadcast in stereo. I don't make the rules or set policies on how stuff is produced. I'm told to shoot and edit in dual mono and that's what I do.

    [Bret Williams] "That provides an inaccurate mix. We monitored in mono mix. Hearing the channels independently out of different speakers is just no way to determine a mix. Sure won't help with determining if one signal has a phase cancellation or if one eq is messing with the other."

    Well, first of all, the amps I used to use at my former station had detent stops on the volume pots, which made setting the same volume on two speakers very easy. But even at the board level, the amps were calibrated to the same -20 dB reference tone. I don't know how the edit bays at my current station are set up. Nevertheless, if a mono mix was required to assure a proper mix on L/R panned tracks, Avid let you do it with 2 clicks:





    Changing the monitoring from stereo to mono in Avid doesn't change the mix on the timeline the way, apparently, FCPX does.

    As far as cutting all the sound on the primary goes, I tried that initially and couldn't cheat the the beginning of a bite over the end of a track. And using the position tool would overwrite the track. So yeah, the way I did it is probably the way I'm going to keep doing it.

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 1:38:14 pm

    [Phil Lowe] "Local broadcast content is broadcast in mono. Network content is broadcast in stereo. I don't make the rules or set policies on how stuff is produced. I'm told to shoot and edit in dual mono and that's what I do.
    "


    Except you aren't. You are editing in some sort of faux stereo, not mono or dual mono.

    Let's put it this way. On your camera, your dual mono recording isn't panned left or right. Channel 1 is channel 1 and channel 2 is channel 2. You can monitor each channel discretely.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 2:03:22 pm

    [Phil Lowe] "Local broadcast content is broadcast in mono. Network content is broadcast in stereo. I don't make the rules or set policies on how stuff is produced. I'm told to shoot and edit in dual mono and that's what I do.
    "


    Except you aren't. You are editing in some sort of faux stereo, not mono or dual mono.

    Let's put it this way. On your camera, your dual mono recording isn't panned left or right. Channel 1 is channel 1 and channel 2 is channel 2. You can monitor each channel discretely.

    [Phil Lowe] "As far as cutting all the sound on the primary goes, I tried that initially and couldn't cheat the the beginning of a bite over the end of a track."

    You mean a J or L cut? Also entirely possible in X.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 7:44:28 pm

    [Jeremy Garchow] "You are editing in some sort of faux stereo, not mono or dual mono."

    The clips have to be split out to dual mono for editing. The channel assignments are 1:left and 2:right, so yes: it's stereo. When it is played back through the PC and goes out to the transmitter for broadcast, both channels are mixed to center: mono.

    Better?

    [Jeremy Garchow] "You mean a J or L cut? Also entirely possible in X."

    Of course it is, as illustrated here:



    When I say "cheat", I mean starting the first syllable of the incoming clip right on the last syllable of the outgoing clip creating a very tight, slightly overlapped edit.

    Now if by creating this scenario you mean expanding the audio and video just to be able to slide the track in there, why is your way the preferred way of doing it?

    Look, I'm trying to develop a workflow here that is easy for me to grasp coming from years of editing on Avid, and that gets the job done as quickly as possible. The way I've done it is the way that both makes the most sense to me and gets the job done. Repeating it, over time, will (hopefully) bring the speed I need. You may do it another way, and that's your choice. But, as this is the first package I've actually completed in this "crap app", I'm going to do it my way until I can either work out a better way to do it, or get to stop using it altogether.

    Fair enough?

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 9:29:18 pm

    [Phil Lowe] "The clips have to be split out to dual mono for editing. The channel assignments are 1:left and 2:right, so yes: it's stereo. When it is played back through the PC and goes out to the transmitter for broadcast, both channels are mixed to center: mono.
    "


    It just seems to me that is bad stereo instead of true dual mono. You could deliver a true dual mono with discrete channels for archiving and reuse as well as transmission.

    [Phil Lowe] "Of course it is, as illustrated here:
    "


    That's not a j or l cut that I was taking about. I'm taking about an actual split edit where video or audio of the outgoing clip, physically overlaps the video or audio of incoming clip. What you have there is a dissolve with another piece of media attached to it.

    This is what I am referring to:

    https://support.apple.com/kb/PH12635?locale=en_US


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 9:37:31 pm
    Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 3, 2016 at 9:53:11 pm

    [Jeremy Garchow] "It just seems to me that is bad stereo instead of true dual mono."

    I started in TV in 1979. It's been done this way for years in TV, at least since the days of 3/4" tape. Assuming you have never worked in TV news, I can understand why this workflow doesn't make sense to you. For those of us who have been doing it this way for years, it's not a problem.

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 10:12:24 pm

    I don't know why I keep trying to help.

    Nevermind.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 11:43:40 pm

    [Jeremy Garchow] "I don't know why I keep trying to help."

    Considering that nothing you offered helped me, I don't know why, either. But thanks anyway.

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 5:45:35 am
    Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 3, 2016 at 11:46:59 pm

    [Bret Williams] "So if you're not outputting to files? Isn't that a time suck?"

    We do output to files and, as far as I'm concerned, everything about X is a "time suck."

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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    Bret Williams
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 4:52:19 am

    [Phil Lowe] "(can't skim across multiple clips with the inspector open, however)"

    What does that mean? Of course you can.

    BTW you can kinda turn off the skimmer only in the timeline by pressing shift T. That puts you in transform mode where the skimmer is turned off, presumably for plotting keyframes. But the you can still skim in the browser, inspector open or not (still a strange comment).

    [Phil Lowe] "Edit out bad takes and dead air, then drop to secondary, leaving a gap on primary.
    Pieces that start with track, drag to beginning of timeline on secondary timeline. Pieces that start with SOT/Nats, drop into primary with insert/overwrite."


    I think I'd leave everything in the primary storyline that dictates time. I'd leave the reporter and the sot pieces on the primary. They are the driving force. The broll should connect to those pieces whevever possible so that when you drag or move them around in the primary, the connected broll moves with them. I wouldn't ever use overwrite or place any broll in the primary.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 3, 2016 at 5:52:26 am

    [Bret Williams] "I wouldn't ever use overwrite or place any broll in the primary."

    I would. And did. It worked. Moving on.

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.


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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 3:38:44 am

    Hi Phil. I've done lots of news and feature-type editing on deadline, so I'm going to jump into the fray here.

    The short answer, in my experience, is, "No. You can't replicate the Avid-style alternating l/r audio track layout in FCPX."

    I have a couple of workflow questions.
    1) Are you required to layoff to tape, and thus require the VO-1, SOT & nats-2 format?
    2) Is playback for broadcast still based on the 2 discrete channels from tape and being mono'd at the audio board?

    I know news has very specialized procedures, and audio in X isn't really designed with this process in mind.

    A couple of thoughts regarding this kind of editing (probably similar to yours, as you've clearly been doing this for a long time):

    I would certainly cut VO and SOT in the primary (a radio cut, if you will). I find that trimming and re-ordering clips is really fast this way. Drop in the VO, pull out the unwanted stuff by marking in and out on the fly and deleting, and the pull-ups will happen without even stopping the playhead. Now each VO is its own clip, and the SOTs can be dropped in at each edit point really quickly. Trimming in the primary is really fast (ripple editing by default, but with the ability to add a slug to improve timing, etc.).

    As far as overlapping audio and video: expanding the audio and video (control-s) and the audio components (control-option-s) makes L and J cuts very fast. No need to detach audio or to place audio as connected clips. I would do b-roll and additional nat sound as connected clips. (Sometimes it's necessary to change the connection point of the first or last connected b-roll if you're going to move a chunk of the story around.) Sometimes adding a dissolve on a split edit requires a little fiddling, but you can always detach just that one bit of audio.

    Regarding the lav-1, boom-2 source issue: I don't think there's any way around the lack of alternating l/r issue. Though it has been my experience that cutting everything in as dual mono and turning off the unwanted channel of each clip in the timeline via the inspector is pretty quick. I'm not sure what problem you're having with skimming multiple clips while the inspector is open.

    So...if I cut the clip into the timeline as dual mono, then expand audio on all the clips, I can turn off the boom or the lav as necessary on each clip or group of clips. I can then make those same clips "stereo l/r" in the pan mode, and pan full left or right. Since the only clips I need left (ch. 1) are VO, that's a simple lasso & change operation. Every other clip is right (ch. 2), using the same lasso & change step. I would do this just before output or layoff, so that I'm monitoring my mix while editing in mono.

    Would be interested in your feedback.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 5:15:41 am
    Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 4, 2016 at 5:28:56 am

    [Jeff Markgraf] "1) Are you required to layoff to tape, and thus require the VO-1, SOT & nats-2 format?
    2) Is playback for broadcast still based on the 2 discrete channels from tape and being mono'd at the audio board?"


    Not tape. It's a file-based workflow that archives directly (and automatically) from the playback server, so anything edited for playback on air must be edited for archiving and possible reuse with clean nats later. So, for all practical purposes, it may as well be a tape-based workflow.

    Regarding 2 above, yes the mono mix happens at the board in PC. As you correctly noted, the demands of news for clean, reusable file whenever possible dictate this workflow. It was like this at my former station. It's like this at my current station.

    [Jeff Markgraf] "As far as overlapping audio and video: expanding the audio and video (control-s) and the audio components (control-option-s) makes L and J cuts very fast."

    My big issue with making this type of cut with audio only and video + audio on the primary is that I was unable to trim the b-side video over the a-side narration. All I wanted to do was back time sound and video over the narration.



    Using trim opens a gap between the b and a side audio. Using position overwrites the a side audio. It appears this is because an audio track (green clip) is treated as though it also has a video component, even though it's empty.



    It seems the only way around this is to put only one of these elements on the primary and connect the other, allowing me to use the position tool to extend the b-side clip over the a-side narration. All I did then was use the range tool to select the overlapping audio on the b-side, and drag the audio levels "under" the a-side.



    In my original finished edit, I had lifted the narration from the primary. In the screen cap above, I lifted the b-side clip from the primary. The result was the same.

    The reason I put all the cleaned-up narration on a secondary, is because when editing under deadline - as you know - sometimes back timing and fore timing clips over track is the fastest way to get those tracks covered, and if you have time at the end of the edit, you can go back and change some of those shots. It makes sense to me to keep the narration (VO) off the primary so that dealing with it later doesn't become an issue. Once a script is approved and a reporter and I start editing, there's not a lot of changing the order of elements around. Sometimes you might add a bit of nats for effect, but I don't find a lot of value in using connected clips just to drag stuff around. There simply isn't time to screw with that kind of stuff regardless of the NLE one is using.

    [Jeff Markgraf] "Regarding the lav-1, boom-2 source issue: I don't think there's any way around the lack of alternating l/r issue. "

    Yes, I know. It sucks. :(

    [Jeff Markgraf] "So...if I cut the clip into the timeline as dual mono, then expand audio on all the clips, I can turn off the boom or the lav as necessary on each clip or group of clips. I can then make those same clips "stereo l/r" in the pan mode, and pan full left or right. Since the only clips I need left (ch. 1) are VO, that's a simple lasso & change operation. Every other clip is right (ch. 2), using the same lasso & change step. I would do this just before output or layoff, so that I'm monitoring my mix while editing in mono."

    I have always dealt with audio issues immediately after laying down each clip. I've been burned and have seen colleagues burned by putting these decisions off to the end of the edit. Invariably, some people don't build time into their edit to address these issues at deadline, and pieces go to air with bad mixes or unrendered effects, as they spend that time making the piece "pretty." As much as I like making pieces look good, I know I have to get the basics done first, and that includes tweaking audio while it's fresh on my mind. This was especially important when I was cutting long-form investigative pieces and half-hour shows.

    As far as monitoring the mix goes, as I wrote in an earlier post, my old station had precision 2-channel amps with click-stop pots, and the internal boards were calibrated to our standard -14dB reference. Turning each pot to the right (or left) the same number of clicks meant I was monitoring both channels at the same level without having to monitor in mono. I would then simply watch my meters and listen to the mix, adjusting higher freq nats lower and lower freq nats higher as needed. (Higher freq sounds need less power to penetrate a mix. It's why there's always only one piccolo in a band or orchestra.)

    I am currently in the process of re-editing that practice package given the workflow Bret (and now you) have mentioned, but I'm really not digging leaving the narration on the primary, for the reasons I stated above.

    Above all, I really don't like FCPX, in case you couldn't tell. ;)

    Thank you for your feedback.

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.


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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 6:00:24 am

    Hi Phil.

    Yes, your unhappiness with X is quite apparent. ;-) You aren't alone. Although, I must say, it has become by far my favorite editing system (right up there with the long ago, late, lamented Immix VideoCube!)

    A couple of points, if I may:

    [Phil Lowe] " I was unable to trim the b-side video over the a-side narration."

    The trick here is to expand the AV on the clips and then do a "double roller" trim on the video. Or trim just the outgoing "video" part of the VO and pull the B side picture with audio along. Even though the "DIVA DRIVE" audio clip is audio only it still acts like an A/V clip in the primary. So if you expand both clips, you can edit the "video" part of each clip.

    Regarding VO in the primary, or not: I often put it all in the primary to do the basic assembly, then lift elements from the primary to start tweaking. Lifting the clip (option-command-up arrow, I think) leaves a gap clip on the primary with the lifted clip connected to it. Now you can adjust the connected clip to your heart's content, and just expand or shorten the gaps underneath.

    When I first started cutting with X, (promos) I cut with everything as connected clips over one long gap clip. It worked fine. Felt a lot like using Avid or FCP7. But it really didn't take advantage of the speed X has to offer once you're in the groove. So I'd really recommend the drop-it-in-the-primary, then lift-clips-out-of-the-primary method as a bridge between the two techniques. Until you're more comfortable with trimming the expanded audio technique.


    [Phil Lowe] "I have always dealt with audio issues immediately after laying down each clip."

    I usually do the audio stuff as I go along. It takes a few keystrokes to accomplish, but it's nothing compared to how long we had to wait to shuttle and cue tapes to find b-roll or next SOT.

    I prefer to listen as I'm editing in mono, since that's how it will be presented. I find listening to split audio distracting, and harder to get the levels right. That's why I generally wait until the end to pan the audio. But if you can mono your monitors, then you could just as easily do the audio panning as you go. Different strokes, etc.


    In the long run, the station you're working for really should begin to rethink their approach to cutting and archiving. Using roles properly would allow stories to be output and archived with true audio stems (VO, SOT, nat sound and music and effects all as separate tracks on a multi-track Quicktime (or other) file). Much more flexible in the long run. After all, having only VO as a separate track was always a compromise forced by 2-track tape machines. A more modern approach could really make things go faster and make archiving more useful. IMHO.

    Happy to go into more detail here or off board, complete with pictures, if you wish.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 7:40:37 am
    Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 4, 2016 at 3:09:15 pm

    Here's the recut using connected clips. Having cut this piece twice now two different ways, I still don't see the advantage of connected clips for a deadline driven straight news pkg. And I really don't like the narration sitting on the primary. Putting it underneath on a secondary feels a little more like track-based editing. And I'm fine with that. ;)



    I think this timeline looks better (more organized) and - more importantly - plays out just as well.



    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.


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    James Cude
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 7:14:51 pm

    Here's an article about cutting news in fcpx. It's pretty old now... looks like it was written before 10.1 and fcp has come a long way since then. So ignore all the stuff about using event manager X. The article shows how the editor cuts news and uses roles for narration vo and for nat-sot. Hope it helps.
    https://library.creativecow.net/garber_michael/FCPX-News-Editing/1

    As for monitoring your audio channels separately, open the timeline index and switch to the roles tab. You can mute either the vo or the nat-sot/intvw during playback. No need for hard panning if you set up the roles in the browser/inspector before you edit clips into he timeline.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 8:16:13 pm
    Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Jan 4, 2016 at 8:27:44 pm

    [James Cude] "No need for hard panning if you set up the roles in the browser/inspector before you edit clips into he timeline."

    Assuming I were to use roles (which I am not inclined to do), how exactly do you set up a role so one track is panned fully left and the other fully right?

    Because here's the thing...I can rename tracks in Avid to do part of what roles do which is to describe what media sits on a track. But it's completely unnecessary.



    Why is using roles the preferred workflow for an 80 second news package that needs to hit the server in 30 minutes? In the Garber article he states up front that he had two days for that edit. I'm not convinced that roles are the right fit for small packages, and certainly not for 40 second voice-overs and SOTs.



    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 9:09:46 pm

    You don't.

    If you need a stereo output, you pan the clips left and right, and export a stereo movie.

    If you need discreet channels, you export a dual mono movie.

    Looks like this:



    If you reimport that clip. Channel 1 would be Narr, 2 would be SOT.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 9:28:39 pm

    [Jeremy Garchow] "You don't."

    Great for export. Not for monitoring. FCPX doesn't do alternating L/R (Avid), which is the workflow I need for both

    Not going to waste my time on roles. Even the guy at Apple wrote this in an email to me:

    Assigning roles before editing is completely optional.


    Cutting a package with narration, SOT, and nats shouldn't require renaming tracks in any NLE or assigning roles in FCPX. Just seems like an extra, wasted step to me.

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 9:29:30 pm

    I know it seems wasted, but it is literally patching all of your audio before you edit.

    It's necessary, useful, and takes seconds.


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    James Cude
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 9:50:21 pm

    you need to use roles to accomplish what you wish to accomplish. does the broadcaster require audio panned l&r or would they also accept a multi-track quicktime? i find these days that most people are ok with a multi-track qt (thus rendering panned masters unnecessary).

    once you get used to the new workflow, it's super easy. so, instead of placing audio on specific tracks in the timeline, try this:

    select modify from the top menu and then edit roles...
    select the plus buton from the bottom left and then select New Audio Role
    create an audio role called NATSOT-INTV
    and then create another one called VO
    when you import all your field footage, you already know what's nat-sot and what's interview.
    select all the nat-sot and interview clips in the event and give those clips a NATSOT-INTV role in the audio inspector.
    select all the vo aiff's in the event and give those clips a VO role in the audio inspector.

    this entire process takes about 20 seconds or less once you do it a couple times. the main thing to remember is that you have to do this every time you import footage. so if you're working on a spot and footage comes in mid-way through the edit, be sure to apply the natsot-intv role or the vo role right after you import. otherwise, you'll have to do that on the individual clips in the timeline. again, the key here is to apply to roles to the clips in the event, not in the timeline. it'll be much easier this way.

    now when you're editing you don't need to worry about panning. just open the timeline index, select the role tab and mute the natsot-intv role when you want to listen to vo. vice versa for natsot or interview. everything will always be center panned.

    i find that my mixes are much easier and much better when i don't have to pan audio left and right. i can see both channels on the stereo vu. they're always true. because when i pan something to one side, the levels are always different and i have raise or lower them. i save time with mixing doing it this way with roles.

    other people have mentioned this - but now when you export, just select multitrack quicktime movie and select natsot-intv for one of the tracks and vo for the other track. you'll end up with a file with 2 separated audio tracks. one for vo and one for natsot/interview. you can even save this export setting as a preset so you don't have to set it up each time. note that the exported files will not be panned l and r. instead, you'll get a quicktime file that has two totally separate and discreet audio channels.

    the speed increases will come while you're editing since you don't have to place specific audio on specific tracks. and the speed increases also occur when exporting. export times in fcpx are very fast.

    oh also you might want to create a template library with the roles already set up. the roles default back to dialogue, music and effects when you create a new library and there are no other libraries opened up. that'll shave another 15 seconds.


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 10:47:12 pm

    [James Cude] "you need to use roles to accomplish what you wish to accomplish."

    Not according to Apple. I didn't set a single role for either of the package cuts I did and got where I needed to be. If my employer decides we will have to use roles, then I'll use them. Right now, I don't want or need to learn them. Too much to deal with just to slap clips down on a timeline to get the piece out.

    Don't like X. It ain't Avid.

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.


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    Bret Williams
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 5, 2016 at 2:47:22 am

    Roles are just like green eggs and ham. Try them try them!


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 5, 2016 at 2:56:24 am

    [Bret Williams] "Roles are just like green eggs and ham. Try them try them!"

    LOL! That was pretty good! ;)

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.


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    Bret Williams
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 5, 2016 at 3:22:54 am

    Sorry Phil, I just got back to the thread and read like 20 posts from Jeremy, you, and Jeff and absolutely not one single new thing was said except for minor differences in the phrasing and no matter what was said or how it was suggested you just said you will not will not use them! :) And since I have a 5 and 8 year old, of course the first thing that came to mind was green eggs and ham.

    But leave it to Jeremy to get creative with it! Somehow I was counting on him. Now if I can just trick him into cutting my next project for me...


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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 5, 2016 at 11:33:21 pm

    I just applied for two different photog/editing positions at a local station that uses Avid. Turns out all of this may be moot anyway.

    Nothing like going home after a long, painful slog through the woods. LOL!

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 5, 2016 at 3:18:48 am

    I will not try roles dual mono.
    I will not try them I'm Mr Lowe

    --

    Well I'm Mr Garchow and I'm here to say
    Roles dual mono is a really great way

    --

    I will not try them without tracks
    How can you not see what this program lacks
    I will not try them without pan
    I will not try them you silly man

    --

    One day you will like fcpx
    Mark my words you won't miss tracks
    It's not avid, this we know
    Best to heed role dual mono


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    Bret Williams
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 5, 2016 at 3:26:34 am

    Time to drop the mic and walk off the stage. Well done Mr. Geisel! Classic.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 9:11:08 pm

    Overlaps (or split edits, which I linked to the manual earlier, did you take the time to read?) look like this:



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    Phil Lowe
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 9:32:33 pm

    [Jeremy Garchow] "Overlaps (or split edits, which I linked to the manual earlier, did you take the time to read?) look like this:"

    Yep. Mine look like this:



    Problem?

    Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
    on Jan 4, 2016 at 9:46:30 pm

    Not a problem. You said something couldn't be done, I showed you how it could.

    If you needed to mute Roles, you do this:



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