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23.98p and 25p in one project?

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juergen steinbrecher
23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 21, 2015 at 4:49:13 am

Hey there,

I am preemptively sorry if that turns out to be a stupid question, but I can not find a definite answer (or work flow) for my problem in any of the other threats. And it goes like this:

I bought a Canon XA 25 some time ago and then a GH4 both in the states (still much cheaper than in Europe). Out of whatever reason someone told me to shoot with the Canon at a frame rate of 29,97, which I did for about a quarter of my material. Now, as most of my work is here in South Asia, all my additional cameramen work in Pal, hence in 25p.

I now thought that I put my Gh4 (which does Pal and NTSC) and the XA 25 in 23,98p but I will get some additional material with 25p from other cameramen here.

So long story short: I will end up with a project in which a big part is shot in 23,98p another part in 29,97i and again another in 25p.

Puhh.. I really only now start to understand these things, but from the last sentence already this seems weird. Is that even possible in FCP X? If so how can I avoid "stuttering" material?


I would be happy for any kind of help! Thanks!

J.


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Jonathan Sutton
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 1:36:50 am

Final Cut will conform your clips based on the project properties. This is usually set automatically by the first clip you add to the timeline. You can also set it manually. It is usually best to make the project settings match the predominate frame rate you are using. I have not personally worked this way much, but this article may prove helpful to you. It goes into detail on the different methods FCP X gives you with conforming the mixed frame rates.

http://help.apple.com/finalcutpro/mac/10.0.5/#ver3363b44e

Jonathan Sutton
Video Editor
The American College Video Studio
https://vimeo.com/theamericancollege


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gary adcock
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 2:23:47 am

[juergen steinbrecher] "So long story short: I will end up with a project in which a big part is shot in 23,98p another part in 29,97i and again another in 25p."

Ouch.

Consider 2 things first
What frame rate is the majority of the content?


Is the client requesting 23.98p or 25p rate for delivery?

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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juergen steinbrecher
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 9:53:57 am

Hey,

Thanks for the help guys!

"Is the client requesting 23.98p or 25p rate for delivery?"

Well, Gary about the output this is what I got from the last film festival (I do anthropological film):

"Furthermore the frame rate should be either 24, 25 or 30 fps (cinema
systems won’t play 23.98 or 29.97 fps)"

As the films are mainly for such kind of (small scale) film festivals and educational purposes in my field (so they should be available on the net), these would be the output rates, I guess.

The problem is that my video camera can only shoot in these frames rates:

MPEG4
1080: 59.94p, 29.97p, 23.98p 720/360: 29.97p, 23.98p

AVCHD
1080: 59.94p, 59.94i, PF29.97, 23.98p


This is what the GH4 can do:

4096 x 2160p / 24 fps (100 Mbps)
3840 x 2160p / 23.98 fps (100 Mbps)
3840 x 2160p / 24 fps (100 Mbps)
3840 x 2160p / 25 fps (100 Mbps)
3840 x 2160p / 29.97 fps (100 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 23.98 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 24 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 25 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 29.97 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 50 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 59.94 fps (200 Mbps)


My cameramen here in Asia – for B-rolls etc – have 25p (maybe 25-30% of my material) and my GH 4 is brand new and I have not shot anything with it yet. So I have about 300 GB (about a third of the whole project) all shot in the Pf 29,97 and now want to make everything right with the other two thirds of my material.

What would you guys suggest?

I really appreciate your help!

J.


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John Rofrano
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 1:26:54 pm

I would shoot either 23.98 or 24 fps (depending on what your camera can do) and deliver at 24 fps. This will give it the cadence that is expected of film. You'll need to make sure that your camera moves are slow and deliberate so that the motion isn't jerky against the 24p frame rate. You can slow down the 25 fps footage and inverse telecine the 29.97 footage to bring everything down to 24p.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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juergen steinbrecher
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 2:44:58 pm

Thanks John, that helps a lot!

Just a few quick questions that I have not yet understood. Sorry for that.

1. What would you recommend for getting the 29,97 material down to 24? I used to work with FCP 7 and now I am editing with FCP X. Any recommendations maybe?

2. One very, very basic question: Isn't it better to go up with the frame rate? I think I heard somewhere that the quality is better to increase i.e. from 24/25p to 29,97.

3. Do I have to expect one or the other (depending on the direction I will convert) of the material to start to jerk, due to these conversations?

Thanks!
J.


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gary adcock
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 5:50:17 pm

[juergen steinbrecher] "1. What would you recommend for getting the 29,97 material down to 24? I used to work with FCP 7 and now I am editing with FCP X. Any recommendations maybe? "

After Effects will offer the best software based frame rate conversion. However be careful, AE sees 23.98, 23.976 and 24.0 as 3 differing frame rates not the 2 (both 23.98 variants are seen as one by ALL other apps)



"2. One very, very basic question: Isn't it better to go up with the frame rate? I think I heard somewhere that the quality is better to increase i.e. from 24/25p to 29,97. "

NO there is not any gain in quality by increasing the frame rate. Higher frame rates make the image look more "video-y" and less filmic, but there is not any increase in quality by increasing frame rates ( and less in most instances)



"Do I have to expect one or the other (depending on the direction I will convert) of the material to start to jerk, due to these conversations?"

The term is "Judder" and it comes from moving the camera faster than the frame rate allows for while this is seen more in the lower frame rates, footage that suffers from it cannot be fixed by adding additional frames

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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John Rofrano
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 23, 2015 at 1:06:44 am

[juergen steinbrecher] "1. What would you recommend for getting the 29,97 material down to 24? I used to work with FCP 7 and now I am editing with FCP X. Any recommendations maybe? "
You don't need to convert it. FCP X will conform it for you on-the fly just by dropping 29.97 media into a 24p timeline. FCP X's background rendering should take care of all of this for you. If you want to convert it first manually, you can use Apple Compressor. Just select a ProRes template and change the Frame Rate from Automatic to 24.
[juergen steinbrecher] "2. One very, very basic question: Isn't it better to go up with the frame rate? I think I heard somewhere that the quality is better to increase i.e. from 24/25p to 29,97. "
I'm not sure where you read that, but synthesizing frames that never existed is never as good as dropping frames you don't need. The reason I suggested you use 24p is because it's a "film" festival and film is 24 fps. There is a certain cadence at 24p that our eyes detect as being film. Of course a lot more goes into making something look like it was shot on film (like lighting, depth of field, color grading, etc.) but the 24p cadence is a big part of the look. If you don't care about the film look then by all means convert everything to 30p.
[juergen steinbrecher] "3. Do I have to expect one or the other (depending on the direction I will convert) of the material to start to jerk, due to these conversations?"
That depends on how it was shot as Gary pointed out. Very fast motion could seem to judder when going from 30p to 24p. As I said earlier, when shooting 24p you need to use slow movements. This is something that must be practiced. You don't just switch a camera into 24p mode and start moving it about like you're shooting 60i. There is a lot less temporal information in only 24 fps. I would practice by panning across a white picket fence until you can do it smoothly so that the pickets don't judder. You'll be surprised at how slow you need to pan to get it right.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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gary adcock
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 6:01:57 pm

[juergen steinbrecher] "The problem is that my video camera can only shoot in these frames rates:"


What is your point?
There was a time when video cameras only shot one frame rate based on where you bought the camera.

If the camera is defining your workflow use one camera and frame rate( good luck with 23.98 under 50Hz lighting)

If it is the subject that determines how you have to shoot, then you will need to understand how to handle the various types of files to make them all compatible with your final project.

"This is what the GH4 can do:"

the camera should only determine your workflow when it is all you have and now pretty much every camera can do the majority of those frame rates.



24.0 is the universal frame rate world wide

, 23.98(for NTSC playback) and 25(PAL playback) are easy conversions from the base integer. If you live and work in Asia your frame rate should be based in integers and not relying on the DropFrame timebase prevalent in the US and Japan.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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John Rofrano
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 5:23:17 am

When working with mixed frame rates, I always set my project to match the delivery frame rate. This way there are no surprises when you perform your final render (e.g., you won't see stuttering that you didn't see on the timeline playback because you cut at 29.97 and delivered at 23.976 or 25 for example) You'll be making all of your edit decisions at the delivery frame rate.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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juergen steinbrecher
Re: 23.98p and 25p in one project?
on Feb 23, 2015 at 12:59:02 pm

Phenomenal!

This was extremely helpful and I thank you all for the advice.

Best wishes
J.


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