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HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...

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David Battistella
HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 11:20:14 am

well.

I have been patient. I have followed the rules, I have even posted every possible workaround since day one. Apple, your score when it comes to interacting with professional DAW software (even your own) is an F. A big fat red F with a circle around it.

I can not mix every film in FCP X. I need a viable way (and I do own the pro version of X2Pro) to get an AFF file out of your software for mixing purposes.

Here is what needs to happen.

1. Better handling of r3d embedded audio.
2. Option to export RENDERED PROXY audio instead of r3d audio.
3. ability to quickly and easily remove all levels and effects from the audio in the timeline (project)

So just to reiterate (and I really do not do this often) it's a FAT F and your audio handling sucks. It really sucks, there is no better description.

Get on this. It's been long enough. Contact me personally if you need to. I can give you sage advice.

Battistella

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 12:52:50 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Sep 9, 2014 at 12:54:07 pm

[David Battistella] "1. Better handling of r3d embedded audio. "

That's is a long standing issue of XtoPro not of FCP X, sorry. If it's not working then you might want to yell at Marquis Broadcast.

[David Battistella] "ability to quickly and easily remove all levels"

Hmmm... maybe try ⌥⇧DELETE?

[David Battistella] "and effects"

Why would you care if you're handing it off to a DAW?


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 1:40:59 pm

I'm working with Marquis. the r3d handling is brutal.

ON the FCP X side. Once a proxy file has been created then perhaps it would be good if the XML could reference the rendered proxy audio (if i could set that as 24bit 48K that would be nice). Then we would not have to worry about relinking r3d audio at all.

Still. This third party solution is Apples solution to audio export (at a pretty heft cost compared to the price of the software itself) so apple needs to know that this ain't working.

Thanks for the tip on the delete levels option.

Battistella

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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 1:54:19 pm

I'm working with Marquis. the r3d handling is brutal.

ON the FCP X side. Once a proxy file has been created then perhaps it would be good if the XML could reference the rendered proxy audio (if i could set that as 24bit 48K that would be nice). Then we would not have to worry about relinking r3d audio at all.

Still. This third party solution is Apples solution to audio export (at a pretty heft cost compared to the price of the software itself) so apple needs to know that this ain't working.



[Robin S. Kurz] "Why would you care if you're handing it off to a DAW?"

If I have used compression or eq's in the rough premix, it would be nice to remove all that, if I have to export role, which is now what I will have to do....

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:02:47 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:03:49 pm

[David Battistella] "This third party solution is Apples solution to audio export"

No, it's a 3rd party solution from a 3rd party. Apple offers a fully open XML for anyone to use. It's up to the third party how they decide to parse it, not Apple. And if you have LPX you can go straight over.

[David Battistella] "If I have used compression or eq's in the rough premix, it would be nice to remove all that"

Then simply do it with 2-3 keystrokes in the DAW! (assuming they even make it over which AFAIK could only happen with LPX as of XML 1.3). It's not like they're rendered into the file. Have never done it any other way. My LPX using audio guy kept what was useful and killed the rest. Done.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:10:08 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Then simply do it with 2-3 keystrokes in the DAW! (assuming they even make it over which AFAIK could only happen with LPX as of XML 1.3). It's not like they're rendered into the file. Have never done it any other way. My LPX using audio guy kept what was useful and killed the rest. Done."

If I export as roles, then it's "burned in" to the file.

FYI the delete combo does not work but, selecting all audio, then selecting the audio pane in the inspector and resetting the volume and pan parameter does work. :)

Battistella

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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:15:40 pm

It's not entirely on Apple, it is on Marquis very much, but a simple AAF export that I could open in Logic Pro X or any other DAW would probably be much more efficient than this long way round.

if this could be as smooth as any of the assistant editing offerings, or even resolves round trip, then my bitching about audio roundtripping would be over with. the fact that I am still (after this long) going through hoops to mix audio outside of FCPX is flat out failure. Even if it is R3D or Marquis. Apple needs to care enough to get it fixed.

Battistella

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:39:44 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:41:53 pm

[David Battistella] "It's not entirely on Apple"

Actually, Apple isn't responsible for other companies' software AT ALL, to be exact, no. No idea why anyone would assume that. Even partly. They're responsible for THE XML, yes. And they're continually developing it further and adding more options. It's up to the OEM's to implement those changes, which many HAVE. Just XtoPro doesn't seem to feel that updating is part of customer service.

[David Battistella] "but a simple AAF export that I could open in Logic Pro X"

LPX does FCPXML. Why would I want an AAF instead?? Because yes, that's a completely superfluous step. And the fact that ProTools won't do it has to do with nothing other than Avid's arrogance. Period. Even PPro can import FCP (7) XML.

[David Battistella] "the assistant editing offerings, or even resolves round trip"

Aha. So Apple's responsible for THAT now, too?? :-))) And you realise that you're making MY point with that, right?

[David Battistella] "Apple needs to care enough to get it fixed."

Apple "fixed" LPX and it supports direct import of FCPXML. Last time: any other software, talk to the respective maker. It's not actually as complicated as you're making it out to be (for yourself). Simply taking the shortest route because it's convenient doesn't make it the best or most logical. :D


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:27:22 pm

[David Battistella] "If I export as roles, then it's "burned in" to the file. "

No idea what you're doing or how you're doing it, but sure doesn't do that here, otherwise I would never use it.

[David Battistella] "FYI the delete combo does not work"

Works just fine here.



[David Battistella] "but, selecting all audio, then selecting the audio pane in the inspector and resetting the volume and pan parameter does work"

Or that, sure. Whereby the audio reset button is probably the better option to use, come to think of it, since the command actually removes any and ALL keyframes from the selected clip(s). Meaning any animations or the likes on the VIDEO as well.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:33:08 pm

Hey Robin,

I don't want to tit for tat or nick pick here. I mean that your suggestion did not work as the most efficient method to reset the parameters for all of the clips in the timeline and get back to a "flat/normal/just as it was imported/state.

This does work really well in the inspector when using the method i described and by resetting the effects portion you get rid of all of the effects, eq's hum removal or anything you might have applied to an audio clip, which would be included in the file if you were to export roles as tracks.

Of course, this would not be the case if I were able to get X2Pro to create an aaf file that I could import into a DAW where those parameters would not be baked into the audio.

Thanks for responding though.

Battistella

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:50:29 pm

And mind you, I'm not saying that FCP's audio is somehow perfect. I'm just saying it works fine for ME and my needs, as long as I know what to look for and know my options. The FCP X devs are sure to continue to get together with the LPX devs in the future to improve things as needed, as they have in the past. Anything else (ProTools et al) are NOT their responsibility, as much as it would seem you'd like them to be, sorry. And at least in comparison to FCP *7's* audio it would never get anything less than maybe a C- from me. Other than maybe the missing "Send to" it trumps 7 by a longshot.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 2:59:01 pm

Nothing wrong with the editing and functionality within the software. Would not trade that for fcp 7 at all.

Big problems when wanting to move audio outside the software. This is no problem for picture with resolve, but an apple fcpxxml does not even open properly in logic X.
Thus, my, this sucks logic.

Wouldn't it make sense to open up your fcpx XML in logic x without a hiccough and mix away on your track?

Where's the rocket science here?

It's been at least a year since logic x. Where's the integration within apples own software?



Battistella

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Oliver Peters
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 3:12:08 pm

David,

I've had all sorts of audio hand-off issues with X as witnessed by a few threads in the other forum. I'm not sure about .r3d audio specifically, as most of my RED shoots have been double-system. I do find that the FCPXML hand-off to Logic X works and so does the AAF from X2Pro into Logic X. One of those (I forget which) strips off the levels, too.

But - and this is a huge but - to get the last project to work correctly, I had to detach the audio and then for each connected audio clip, use the "break items apart" command.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 3:28:37 pm

I did break apart all the audio.

You should see the garbled mess the fcpx XML is for a simple 30 minute film with just a music, effects dialogs, etc. it's disastrous. The RELINKING in logic is poor and asks for clip locations practically on a clip by clip basis.
This is single system too. I doubt it would be this much trouble with a qt file. I think the problem resides in extracting the wav portion of the r3d file.

I've resorted to roles, which in this day and age, with modern software. Sucks. It's unacceptable.

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Oliver Peters
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 3:34:16 pm

[David Battistella] "You should see the garbled mess the fcpx XML is for a simple 30 minute film with just a music, effects dialogs, etc. it's disastrous."

Yes, I can imagine. The only other option would be to use Xto7 to bring it into FCP 7 and - if it's correct there - export an OMF. At least in 7, you can check the accuracy and rearrange tracks if needed.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 3:37:08 pm

I've done that route before. Counterintuitive. In the first six months, I'm like, "hey, this'll get fixed". Now I'm like, "meh, they don't really care about this stuff."

Going into EOL software as a workflow solution makes me want to put a revolver to my temple.

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 3:13:36 pm

[David Battistella] "Wouldn't it make sense to open up your fcpx XML in logic x without a hiccough and mix away you track?"

It has MUCH improved with the most recent versions. And no, it's not perfect. But FCPXML is a work in progress. It's also a far superior exchange format, even if it doesn't seem so right off the bat. Outdated formats such as EDL or AAF are (and will stay) incapable of e.g. retaining (as in: *editable*) color correction information from FCP to Resolve or any and all audio filters/effects that you apply in FCP to LPX, Both of which already work. For ME having that makes putting up with having to shift some tracks around in LPX for a bit longer quite tolerable. You may not. At least I know, as opposed to nonsense such as EDL, that things can, will and are improving over time. That's what the feedback pages are for, too, btw.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 3:30:55 pm

Robin.

Do you think I am some kind of rookie on here?

I've used feedback on this multiple times, through multiple films. I'm very much a glass half full kind of person.

This portion of fcpx sucks balls.

Battistella

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 4:18:26 pm

Another good way to zero all audio is to adjust to "absolute" volume.

The default keyboard shortcut is option-control-l (relative volume is control-l).

So, select all, option control l, type in a dB value, and hit enter.

X does need a "remove attributes" option.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 4:26:03 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "X does need a "remove attributes" option."

Yeah. Put the request in a long time ago... along with Paste Attributes. So hey, at least they're listening to me (and only me of course, you can thank me later) and half of what I say. ;-P


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 10:09:05 pm

To remove attributes is quite simple. Select a single clip with normalize attributes, no cc, no volumes, no effects or whatever.

Copy the attributes of that clip. Select all the other clips, paste all attributes. Done.

Battistella

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 9, 2014 at 10:11:33 pm

[David Battistella] "To remove attributes is quite simple. Select a single clip with normalize attributes, no cc, no volumes, no effects or whatever.

Copy the attributes of that clip. Select all the other clips, paste all attributes. Done. "


This doesn't work with audio effects/filters, though.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 10, 2014 at 4:44:21 am

True,

You have to select all open the audio pane and reset parameters for that. That will remove them all or undo paste attributes, in a way.

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 10, 2014 at 4:58:55 am

It still won't delete effects (unless you have the same effects on every clip).

If I put bit crusher on one clip and car radio on another, I can't remove both of those effects with one click or selecting all. Even if I reset parameters, the effects remain on and working.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 10, 2014 at 6:20:03 am

Can you paste blank attributes from another clip?

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 10, 2014 at 3:35:59 pm

[David Battistella] "Can you paste blank attributes from another clip?"

No.


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Adam White
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 10, 2014 at 7:41:13 pm

I totally agree.

Audio in FCPX is still a mess if you ask me. In terms of how audio works within the timeline, and interchange with other software. Frustratingly, some of the built in audio tools and plugins are actually really excellent and can get you great results super fast.

It's one of the many areas where the amazing potential and power of FCPX is annoyingly held back by some clunky design decisions and an inflexibility in how you can work.

I have so far refused to edit anything that requires anything more than fairly simple audio work in FCPX. I don't think I can stomach the endless frustrations that would probably ensue. But for simple music/vo/interview/sfx timelines the built in tools are terrific and mean you can get your audio mixes to "sing" much quicker than any other NLE I've used in the past. For that kind of thing it rocks.

Start trying to layer up a more complicated sound mix though, and I find it a nightmare to be honest. So now if the edit feels in advance like it might require that, I'll just cut it in something else.

But this does need to be addressed. A master audio mixer (a la Avid) would be my top request - I know there are no tracks, but surely this could function based on Roles assignments and playhead position? It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to get some more useful audio mixing tools into this thing.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 11, 2014 at 5:16:29 pm

I'd like to see a mixer that converts an audio storyline into a track. Better yet a function that converts roles into audio storylines. Those storylines then appear in a master mixer, a track representIon in the mixer. Here, I'd just like it to be like the logic x mixer where I can add compression and eq across a whole storyline. Just that would help a lot internally....as much as I love trackless there are wholesale things that I want to do to tracks and sometimes the whole mix.

In terms of export ability. Maybe I am on an r3d island but it should be 100% seamless at least to logic for a start.

Battistella

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 11, 2014 at 5:21:10 pm

[David Battistella] "In terms of export ability. Maybe I am on an r3d island but it should be 100% seamless at least to logic for a start. "

Can't you use RCX for this?


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 11, 2014 at 10:16:19 pm
Last Edited By David Battistella on Sep 11, 2014 at 10:18:19 pm

This way I would have to:

Export and FCPXXML
Open in RCX *which won't read any other audio source
Export the R3D audio only as wave files.
Reopen in FCPX
Export a new FCPX XML
Try to open that XML in X2Pro

Anyway, you get the point.

If FCPX can READ and RENDER R3D audio, then presumably it can read the TC from said audio, no?
At least the XML could "break" the relationship to the R3D and have it attach to the rendered audio from the Proxy file. This way all X2Pro has to try to read is the audio from a QT file in FCP X (I think this is much more straight forward approach but its probably to simple to execute) Like I might need a tick box that tells the sequence to reference the rendered audio from the proxy instead of the R3D.

The real problem is the third party (not so much Apple) but Apple would tell me they have an excellent third party solution which is not so excellent (as resolve or intelligent assistants).

Still. The fact that LOGIC X does not read ANY FCP XML perfectly is failure and just plain old laziness. Lazy lazy lazy.

IMO there is no larger fish to fry in the software (which is a brilliant and exceptional step forward) than the EXPORT AUDIO fish. :)

Battistella

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 12, 2014 at 2:54:08 pm

[David Battistella] "Export and FCPXXML
Open in RCX *which won't read any other audio source
Export the R3D audio only as wave files.
Reopen in FCPX
Export a new FCPX XML
Try to open that XML in X2Pro"


I was thinking more like an AAF out of RCX for Red audio, and an AAF out of FCPX, and combine the two in ProTools (or wherever).

Jeremy


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 12, 2014 at 4:21:26 pm

Problem with the aaf out of fcpx is that x2proneedz to generate that. Would have to sift through the film and remove any reference to R3D audio and then figure where and how to get that all synced up.

It's a freaking nightmare.

Battistella

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 12, 2014 at 4:24:46 pm

[David Battistella] "Problem with the aaf out of fcpx is that x2proneedz to generate that. Would have to sift through the film and remove any reference to R3D audio and then figure where and how to get that all synced up.

It's a freaking nightmare. "


If you are doing AAF, you'd have at least sequence timecode, or simply add a 2 beep.

Assign Roles to the R3D audio (if you haven't already), and simply don't include that Role in the X2Pro export.

I would think this would be pretty easy, actually.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 16, 2014 at 7:14:06 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I would think this would be pretty easy, actually."

Sure,

That is easy. Then you open a session with all of your single system audio missing. At the most maybe Id have some music and effects tracks for the mix.

Guys, it's really simple. X2Pro is working on it. There was a fix that became broken with the latest version of FCPX xml and the RED SDK.

That doesn't get apple off the hook with the FCPX xml to LOGIC X workflow though.

It's lazy and poor development to which there would be simple and effective solutions.

Battistella

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 16, 2014 at 11:38:05 am

Sorry David. Just trying to offer assistance.

I've had luck with RCX, but I don't need to go to Logic.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 17, 2014 at 6:38:42 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Sorry David. Just trying to offer assistance.

I've had luck with RCX, but I don't need to go to Logic."


Jeremy,

I appreciate you and your approach in this thread and all things COW related. I'm on quite a heavy deadline for this project.

I did manage to get the whole track divided into ROLES and then I exported the ROLES. It took a little extra checker boarding of audio and creating additional ROLES, etc. but it was done and delivered.

Logic is a great mixing tool and I have been using it for quite some time. I had expected tighter integration from Apple within a couple of their Pro Apps, especially FCPX LOgicX. Motion would use tiger round tripping as well.

Thanks for your help here. I know you are helpful and one of the "good guys"

Battisetlla

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 15, 2014 at 8:32:36 pm

[David Battistella] "Would have to sift through the film and remove any reference to R3D audio and then figure where and how to get that all synced up."

I personally don't get why anyone shooting on RED of all things wouldn't be shooting dual-system audio to begin with. In which case the whole problem would be (and is, in my case) completely irrelevant.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 15, 2014 at 9:22:28 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "I personally don't get why anyone shooting on RED of all things wouldn't be shooting dual-system audio to begin with. In which case the whole problem would be (and is, in my case) completely irrelevant."

This certainly used to be the case, but for owner operators, it isn't necessarily the case any more.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 16, 2014 at 7:10:03 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "I personally don't get why anyone shooting on RED of all things wouldn't be shooting dual-system audio to begin with. In which case the whole problem would be (and is, in my case) completely irrelevant."

Yeah, sure. Why do they even put 48K 24 bit audio onto the brain? Why don't they just make it a silent camera and end all these FCP X problems.

Seriously. This is one of the dumbest things I have read on Creative Cow in years.

Blame the RED operator for shooting single system on a very capable system. You know. I have hundreds of TB of data shot single system on RED cameras. They aren't reserved for sets and double system sound.

Battistella

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 16, 2014 at 1:43:34 pm

[David Battistella] "one of the dumbest things I have read on Creative Cow in years."

Happy to oblige. Keep up the belligerence. Always a great foundation for any argument.


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David Battistella
Re: HEY APPLE: FCPX scores an F for audio handling...
on Sep 17, 2014 at 6:33:36 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "Happy to oblige. Keep up the belligerence. Always a great foundation for any argument."

Great. You can keep up the arrogance. :)

Battistella

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