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Alyssa Ryvers
Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 2:26:19 am

Hi,

The picture editor we're working with would like the files delivered as ProRes 422 1080x1920p.

We used a Canon EOS1-DC shooting 4K 4096 × 2160.

I tried importing to FCPX v.10.0.9, and the file did convert to ProRes 422, but it's still 4096 × 2160!

How do you suggest converting this 4096 × 2160 4K file to 1080p? Note -- 4096 × 2160 isn't divisible by 1920 x 1080...


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Paul Figgiani
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 1:10:25 pm
Last Edited By Paul Figgiani on Mar 23, 2014 at 1:18:06 pm

Alyssa,

You're correct - your 4K footage is not 16:9. The aspect ratio is 1.9:1 as opposed to 1.78:1 (1080p).

Have a look at this frame. The project resolution is 1920x1080. The light gray clip is 4096x2160 drooped into the 1080p project and is letterboxed.



In this case yo can rescale the image to "fit" the 16x9 frame. Or - you can leave it letterboxed. Of course you can crop the letterbox bars - but that will change the frame size.

Bottom line try dropping the imported footage into a 1080p project and see how it goes ...

-paul.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 2:27:31 pm

What NLE is the editor using?


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Alyssa Ryvers
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 4:14:31 pm
Last Edited By Alyssa Ryvers on Mar 23, 2014 at 4:22:14 pm

Jeremy -- FCPX, which is why I've been using it for import.

Paul -- OMG -- so there is really no other way for me to deal with this other than cropping the sides of the image...

Yes, when I import the footage into the 1080p project it renders it to 1080 letterboxed.

Obviously, I'd like to process the file as few times as possible, so as not to incur unnecessary loss.

How do you suggest I import and convert the footage to ProRes 422 1080p -- cropped, I guess... -- in the least lossy way possible?

Re: cropping -- on second thought, maybe I should leave the file letterboxed, so that the editor can make the decisions re: how he wants it cropped on a case-by-case basis?

Also, the 1DC records its files in 4G increments. How do you suggest I manage that?

Best,

Alyssa


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 4:31:26 pm

If your editor is using FCPX, there's no reason to compress the footage down to 1080p, simply use the 4k footage in a 1080 timeline like Paul suggests.

Also, as Paul suggests, you have two options, either fill the screen and let the left and right edge crop, or work with the footage slightly letterboxed.

Also, if you use the 4k image in a 1080 timeline it will allow a lot of reframing in post.

If you optimize the media, it will make the media ProRes (right click the media, choose Transcode Media and click Optimize).

Be prepared for very large files, which means you will have to have the proper amount of storage.

[Alyssa Ryvers] "Also, the 1DC records its files in 4G increments. How do you suggest I manage that?"

You will have to work with the footage in chunks. This isn't that big of a deal.

Jeremy


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Alyssa Ryvers
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 5:35:35 pm

Thanks, Jeremy :)

The editor has asked that all the files we give him are ProRes 422 1080p --

Given that, and given what you and Paul are saying -- should I, or should I not, be optimizing to ProRes 422 on import? Is there any reason not to optimize the media?

In terms of my doing rough assemblies on my machine, which isn't the newest, should I be making a proxy file -- can I be working with proxy files, and when the editor opens up the session he can reliably work with the non-proxy version, or would my using proxies on my end open up the potential for problems...

Maybe I don't need to use proxies, in your estimation? I'm working on a MacBook Pro 2.53 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo w/ 8G RAM on OS 10.6.8

In terms of organizing the files -- I was thinking about importing the multiple files of each take into separate events -- what do you think? How would you go about organizing this?

Best,

Alyssa


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 6:01:22 pm

[Alyssa Ryvers] "The editor has asked that all the files we give him are ProRes 422 1080p --"

Then you are going to have to transcode using Compressor. You should double check and make sure that they can't just work with the 4k files. It will take more storage, but will ultimately be more flexible.

[Alyssa Ryvers] "Given that, and given what you and Paul are saying -- should I, or should I not, be optimizing to ProRes 422 on import? Is there any reason not to optimize the media?"

If you need to transcode to 1080p before the edit, then you shouldn't optimize, rather you should just transcode the original 4k material.

[Alyssa Ryvers] "In terms of my doing rough assemblies on my machine, which isn't the newest, should I be making a proxy file -- can I be working with proxy files, and when the editor opens up the session he can reliably work with the non-proxy version, or would my using proxies on my end open up the potential for problems..."

You first have to decide which set of maser files you are going to be working from. If they really need 1080 ProRes files, then you should only make rough assemblies from those. The alternative, is to make Proxy files (like you say) and edit from those. Those will be half size ProRes Proxy files. At the end, you can simply flip the appropriate switch and FCPX will automatically connect back to the 4k files. This will only work if you use the original 4k files. If you decide to pre transcode the files down to 1080p first before the edit, you will not reconnect back to the 4k files. Hope that makes sense.

[Alyssa Ryvers] "Maybe I don't need to use proxies, in your estimation? I'm working on a MacBook Pro 2.53 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo w/ 8G RAM on OS 10.6.8"

What type of hard drive? My guess is that machine will need to use Proxies for 4k material.

[Alyssa Ryvers] "In terms of organizing the files -- I was thinking about importing the multiple files of each take into separate events -- what do you think? How would you go about organizing this?"

I tend to try and put all footage in one Event and use Keywords and tagging to organize. Having related footage spread out across a lot of Events can get cumbersome. I don't know what your material is exactly, so it's hard to give a lot of advice on how to organize it. I also am using FCP 10.1, so I have Libraries instead of multiple and separate Events. This is what my current Event structure look like in a Library I am working in today:



Jeremy


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 6:19:17 pm

It's always a good idea to optimise, editing will be much smoother. optimising won't scale the footage down to 1080p, it simply converts it to ProRes, which can have any size you want

Why does the editor need 1080p? It would make more sense, and less transcoding, to leave them in 4k and edit in a 1080p timeline.

With your setup you should use proxies.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Alyssa Ryvers
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 6:43:26 pm
Last Edited By Alyssa Ryvers on Mar 23, 2014 at 7:13:07 pm

Thanks, guys :)

So...the plan is to find out whether the picture editor would like to work with the larger size ProRes 422 files, or if he needs me to compress to 1080p right off the bat.

We're going to be using other footage not shot at 4K (shot at 1080p, and some archival footage which will be who knows what) -- will Final Cut handle different frame sizes in its Event Library, all being used in the same 1080p project, or might that be an argument to transcode everything to 1080p right away?

Re: Proxies: Assuming we're going to be using a mix of frame sizes, including 4K, but all ProRes 422, if I use Proxies for my rough assemblies, will the picture editor be able to easily continue from where I left off without using proxies? If I need to work on an edit he does without proxies, will I be able to link back up to the proxy versions fairly easily -- or is that workflow a potential prescription for the introduction of errors? I found a radio button under Preferences>Playback that appears to allow one to toggle between "use proxy media" and "use original or optimized media" -- is switching between the two modes as simple as that?

BTW -- what is ProRes 422 (HQ)? I notice it as an option under custom audio settings when I create a new project -- is this referring solely to the audio being played back? processed? in high quality, or the video? or both?

Best,

Alyssa


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 7:24:09 pm

Switching between proxy and original is really as simple as that.

ProRes 422 HQ is a better video quality than 422, but you won't see much of a difference.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 7:40:56 pm

X handles different sizes perfectly fine. I personally prefer leaving footage in its original size when mixing and resize in the timeline as needed. I would leave the 4k as is, since you then have the option of re-framing without loosing quality in a 1080p timeline. If you convert it to 1080p you won't have that option without loosing quality. I just got my Blackmagic 4k a few weeks ago, and its so nice to be able to re frame and get some CUs from medium wide shots. very practical when you can't get too close to the subject.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 7:42:00 pm

[Alyssa Ryvers] "We're going to be using other footage not shot at 4K (shot at 1080p, and some archival footage which will be who knows what) -- will Final Cut handle different frame sizes in its Event Library, all being used in the same 1080p project, or might that be an argument to transcode everything to 1080p right away?"

In my opinion, there's no reason to down covert the 4k to 1080p. I would use the 4k footage in a 1080 timeline (I do this almost daily).

[Alyssa Ryvers] "Re: Proxies: Assuming we're going to be using a mix of frame sizes, including 4K, but all ProRes 422, if I use Proxies for my rough assemblies, will the picture editor be able to easily continue from where I left off without using proxies?"

As long as you gave made Proxies from the original material, and the editor has the same media, you will be fine. If you start to use different subsets of media, it won't work as well.

Moving from original/optimized to Proxy and back is literally a flip of a switch.

[Alyssa Ryvers] "BTW -- what is ProRes 422 (HQ)? I notice it as an option under custom audio settings when I create a new project -- is this referring solely to the audio being played back? processed? in high quality, or the video? or both?"

That is the render format of the timeline. I'd stick with regular ProRes for now. HQ is good for footage that is acquired at 10bits or higher.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 8:41:05 pm

If you need to batch-process a bunch of camera files to deliver ProRes422 1080p, I suggest you use DaVinci Resolve. Even the free version will do this.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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gary adcock
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 10:02:02 pm

[Oliver Peters] "f you need to batch-process a bunch of ca"

Actually I prefer the latest version of Compressor for this task over Resolve.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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Oliver Peters
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 10:05:02 pm

[gary adcock] "Actually I prefer the latest version of Compressor for this task over Resolve."

Is it as fast on a single machine?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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gary adcock
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 10:13:50 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Is it as fast on a single machine?"

depends on the storage when you are moving big files.

I have been converting 4K in to ProResHQ for "offlines" in real time as a test between 2 - Lacie LBDv2 units.

IMHO keeping rather than trimming the extra 256px from the 4096 width to make a 1080 file can lower the quality of file compression on any platform. Compression math is developed around specific SMPTE frame raster sizes.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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Alyssa Ryvers
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 23, 2014 at 10:20:39 pm

Gary -- do I understand correctly that you're recommending that I re-size to 1080p before starting the edit?


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gary adcock
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 24, 2014 at 12:22:05 am

[Alyssa Ryvers] "do I understand correctly that you're recommending that I re-size to 1080p before starting the edit?"

Alyssa, you need to talk to your editor before you make any decisions, some of the steps you are taking will seriously affect the post process. You are trying to crowdsource knowledge from people that are not doing the post and guessing at solutions for you.

ALL video compression engines are based on the standard SMPTE frame sizes, and since 4K currently considered as 2 frame sizes the 4096x2160 you are working with (4K DCI) or the more universal 3840x2160 (QuadHD) which is exactly 4x the pixels of the 1920x1080 HD frame.

QuadHD is recommended for a couple of reasons.
Not all 4K displays can show the 4096 pixels but all can show 3840px, and secondly that extras 256px create unwanted artifice when downscaling, reducing quality when creating online or other compressed content.

What your editor needs should be solely their decision.
While JG points out that he cuts 4K in a 1080 timeline, he assumes that you ability to handle that much data in post and yet that alone may be beyond the available editing hardware and facility capabilities,

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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Alyssa Ryvers
Re: Importing 4K 4096 x 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 24, 2014 at 3:48:59 am
Last Edited By Alyssa Ryvers on Mar 24, 2014 at 4:13:53 am

Hi Gary,

Not to worry that I will make artistic decisions that I shouldn't be; I've been a sound engineer +20 years (a good deal of which has been in the film industry), and I'm very technical. I have a much better understanding of the issues surrounding 4K video workflow thanks to this thread -- which was the point of my question -- not to make any final decisions regarding workflow.

[gary adcock] IMHO keeping rather than trimming the extra 256px from the 4096 width to make a 1080 file can lower the quality of file compression on any platform. Compression math is developed around specific SMPTE frame raster sizes.

What I was asking / hoping for was if you'd clarify the above comment -- are you saying there is something lossy about leaving the file as 4096 × 2160 in FCP while cutting in a 1080p timeline...? That seemed to me the least lossy suggestion so far...

Best,

Alyssa


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gary adcock
Re: Importing 4K 4096 x 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 24, 2014 at 2:30:46 pm

[Alyssa Ryvers] "Not to worry that I will make artistic decisions that I shouldn't be;"

We are not talking about artistic, these points are about technical issues.

"are you saying there is something lossy about leaving the file as 4096 × 2160 in FCP while cutting in a 1080p timeline"

1) The bandwidth difference between 4K ProRes and 1080 ProRes is more data to handle.
You are not going to cut 4K ProRes files easily from a Firewire or eSata drive and that is going to be the biggest issue to deal with.


2) IF you have to scale the content to 1080 before the edit.
YES it will.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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Alyssa Ryvers
Re: Importing 4K 4096 x 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 24, 2014 at 2:40:04 pm

OK -- so leaving the 4K file in the project while cutting in a 1080p project is not lossy. Thank you.

[gary adcock] We are not talking about artistic, these points are about technical issues.


I beg to differ. Doing a universal crop on both sides of my 4096 x 2160 footage to fit a 1080p frame, rather than the editor and I making a decision on how we're going to crop each shot on a case by case basis, WOULD be an artistic decision.


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Alyssa Ryvers
Re: Importing 4K 4096 x 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 24, 2014 at 3:56:01 pm
Last Edited By Alyssa Ryvers on Mar 24, 2014 at 4:24:17 pm

If the editor I'm working with decides we should cut with the 4K files in a 1080p timeline, do you think I will be able to run the session using proxy media, or will my system still not be able to keep up?

Again, I'm working on FCPX v. 10.0.9 on a MacBook Pro 2.53 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo w/ 8G RAM on OS 10.6.8 using a FW800 drive (7200RPM)

Best,

Alyssa


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Importing 4K 4096 x 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 24, 2014 at 7:04:55 pm

It's going to be tight, Alyssa. Is the editor using your machine or will they have their own?

The Proxies will certainly work a lot better as they will be half size, but that's still a 2k file.


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Alyssa Ryvers
Re: Importing 4K 4096 x 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Mar 24, 2014 at 10:36:06 pm

Thanks, Jeremy!

The editor has his own system.

I gave it a try on my computer with one clip -- seems to play back fine...I'd say it may work...

Thanks so much to all of you for sharing your expertise with me :)

Best regards,

Alyssa


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chris king
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Aug 11, 2014 at 8:53:11 am

If you need to convert a bunch of 4K video files to ProRes422 1080p, here is a 4K video to ProRes Converter for you. It is able to batch process 4K videos like the most hot XACC/XAVC S files to Apple ProRes. You can either downsize 4K to 1080p or keep original 4K ultra HD resolution.



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gary adcock
Re: Importing 4K 4096 × 2160 (from a 1DC) to FCP as ProRes 422 1080x1920p?
on Aug 11, 2014 at 1:28:59 pm

[chris king] "You can either downsize 4K to 1080p or keep original 4K ultra HD resolution."

NO!!!

by maintaining the full 4096 width when scaling to 1080, you will reduce the overall quality of the compressed content by as much as 50% (especially when the using the default compression output settings from either FCP or Premiere. I recommend that you crop the file to 3840x2160 prior to the downcoversion step so that the scale was handled seperately from the the compression to 1080.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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