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X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken

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james Lackleter
X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 22, 2014 at 1:46:23 pm
Last Edited By james Lackleter on Feb 22, 2014 at 1:50:58 pm

Just a couple notes here I think some may find helpful.

If you import using REDCODE for your R3D files, and create proxies inside of X, it will not create proxies based off the frame rate of the current project setting, but will base it off of the original camera frame rate. Also some frame durations were wrong. So I recommend you use Redcine X or resolve for your proxies, not REDCODE.

Also I complained on a weekly basis and they finally fixed the issue with wave files and multiple imports some of you may remember I was complaining about that.

One more note, there are so many threads stating X will pull down footage for you based on your project frame rate. This is absolutely false.

Logic import is still broken, I find it hilarious that it's still not fixed, (probably because I'm using protools) But this is a disgrace, and a slap in the face and quite a surprise for anyone who upgrades to Logic X. So yes Logic Pro X import is broken, please make people aware of this so they aren't screwed when they try to transfer.


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Oliver Peters
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 22, 2014 at 3:28:51 pm

[james Lackleter] "but will base it off of the original camera frame rate"

But isn't that what you want? In order for X's original/proxy workflow to function, frame rates need to match, otherwise you can't successfully flip between them. If you change the frame rate, then it's not really a valid proxy of the original.

[james Lackleter] "Also some frame durations were wrong."

Can you clarify?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Davidson
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 22, 2014 at 8:05:29 pm

[james Lackleter] "Logic import is still broken, I find it hilarious that it's still not fixed, (probably because I'm using protools) But this is a disgrace, and a slap in the face and quite a surprise for anyone who upgrades to Logic X. So yes Logic Pro X import is broken, please make people aware of this so they aren't screwed when they try to transfer.
"


I don't know what you mean by this James. We pulled in an AAF from FCPX into Logic Thursday. Are you talking about importing the XML? That resulted in a ton of layers so our AAF was the better import option into Logic. Or are you talking about sending a project from logic into FCPX? Because I've done that too. That actually worked really well.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 22, 2014 at 8:18:34 pm

24 to 25 is a standards conversion, which typically does not involve adding a pulldown cadence. Very rarely you'd see 24+1, and you'd more likely see the speed change (footage speed changed to play 24@25), but most professional standards conversion done today is motion compensated through hardware.

Fcpx does allow real time speed change conforms, but you have to hold it's hand.

Red Proxies, of course, are going to be created at the frame rate shot. RCX does this too. Resolve might allow a different output frame rate, but that's not going to match back very well, and by the nature of math will introduce either artifacting or speed change.

I wish you would explain exactly what it is you are trying to do as many of us have asked because we just may be able to help.


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Bret Williams
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 22, 2014 at 10:21:14 pm

X does add pull down. That is completely true. Just drop a 24p file in a 1080i sequence and step through frame by frame and check it.

Regarding proxies- it creates proxies at the frame rate of the source footage which is the only way I can think of to make proxies. Certainly wouldn't make it the frame rate of some unknown or possibly non-existent sequence. For that matter you could be using the footage in all sorts of different sequences.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 22, 2014 at 10:34:31 pm

[Bret Williams] "X does add pull down. That is completely true. Just drop a 24p file in a 1080i sequence and step through frame by frame and check it."

As well as 720p23.98 to 59.94 and 720p25 to 50.

I think James is confusing pulldown with standards conversion.


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james Lackleter
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 23, 2014 at 2:47:25 am
Last Edited By james Lackleter on Feb 23, 2014 at 2:54:32 am

It will attempt to, but not successfully. Take the same clip, make a 23.98 project, put in a 24 fps, and 23.98 version of the same clip, and note the difference in clip duration. Logic does not carry over surround, it converts to stereo and removes all add plugs. Also produces way to many tracks, probably because it has no reference since X has none. Cine X should have FPS option, I don't use it but I'd be shocked if it didn't.

I didn't say X doesn't attempt to do this, what I should have said is it doesn't do these things properly to clear confusion.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 23, 2014 at 3:01:21 am

This all depends on your source material.

A 23.98 and 24.0 version 'of the same clip' are going to have different durations unless you have motion compensated the change in speed.

I also pointed out in the other thread how fcpx is misinterpreting some of these speed changes and you have to drag them back out manually if you need to match original audio timing as audio has no frame rate (or resample the audio to match time).

One second of recorded audio is going to match the same second of recorded video at whatever frame rate the video was recorded. Once you change the video frame rate by altering speed, you have changed the reference timing and the video will no longer match the audio.

Do you need everything to be the same duration, or do you need to match a particular timing according to frame rate? Or both?


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james Lackleter
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 23, 2014 at 3:59:25 am
Last Edited By james Lackleter on Feb 23, 2014 at 4:12:39 am

I don't really need anything, just sharing some findings so maybe it'll help someone. Thanks though, much appreciated. And everything is indeed synced so no need to recut the project. It was just the issue I stated above, X not correctly playing back. Thank God.

Also just to clarify prior post, my point is if I take the same clip in 23.98 project, one at 23.98, and one 24.00 fps, if X is was accurately converting the 24.00 fps in playback to 23.98, then these two clips should have the same length duration.

As much as I hate this program I do like some things. A friend gave me a DV tape from his sister's wedding, asked me to cut it together. One hour for transcode, thirty minutes to cut, recorded at 29.97, brought down to 23.98, automatically resampled audio. Two hours including export.


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Bret Williams
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 23, 2014 at 7:31:18 pm

[james Lackleter] "Also just to clarify prior post, my point is if I take the same clip in 23.98 project, one at 23.98, and one 24.00 fps, if X is was accurately converting the 24.00 fps in playback to 23.98, then these two clips should have the same length duration."

What exactly is converting the clip? Are you applying some conforming in X (now called "automatic speed" - WTH?) because otherwise a 24fps clip containing the same set of frames should definitely be longer than a 23.98 clip.


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james Lackleter
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 23, 2014 at 9:42:09 pm

Not if it's suppose to be pulling down the footage based on the project frate, which is why I said it does not automatically pull down footage.


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Oliver Peters
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 23, 2014 at 10:03:39 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Feb 23, 2014 at 10:08:21 pm

I think you guys are getting your terminology mixed up. AFAIK, there is no "pulldown" as in an automatic speed change (24.0 to 23.98 or 30.0 to 29.97) when you mix frame rates, unless you use the Retime-Automatic Speed function. However, there is "cadence insertion" (also often - and incorrectly - called pulldown). So you have additional added fields when you drop a 24p (23.98) clip into a 30i (29.97) timeline.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 23, 2014 at 10:15:16 pm

I'm not sure you know what pull down is. It's a duplication of frames/ fields in a particular pattern to specifically maintain the duration of a clip and smooth out cadence problems when footage of one frame rate is played back at another frame rate. 24p in a 1080i sequence spreads out the duplication of frames over 60 fields quite nicely. But it doesn't change the playback speed or clip duration. It still takes 1 second to playback the every 24 frames.

I think because your frame rates are so close you think something special is supposed to happen. But suppose you had two identical sets of 1000 frames of video. Ones frame rate is 23.98fps. The other is 500fps. You drop them both in a 23.98 sequence. By your logic you seem to think that they'll be the same duration. Obviously not. The one will be 2 seconds long. The other would be 41.7 seconds long.

If you conform them that's a whole different concept than pull down. THAT would play them back at the frame rate of the timeline, making them the same duration.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 24, 2014 at 3:58:26 am

[james Lackleter] "Also just to clarify prior post, my point is if I take the same clip in 23.98 project, one at 23.98, and one 24.00 fps, if X is was accurately converting the 24.00 fps in playback to 23.98, then these two clips should have the same length duration."

Fcpx does OK when using like formats (fractional vs whole, NTSC vs the rest of the world or film).

Once you go between fractional vs whole fcpx doesn't do as well all of the time.

As mentioned in the other thread, you have to drag the clip back out to length to conform the speed change and also uncheck the pitch change. This seems like a bug to me.

There is a difference in the term pulldown between audio and video. Audio pulldown is more like a video conform. During the process of transferring film/sync audio to video (29.97) adding a 3:2 interlaced pattern to the pulled down video and audio, received the generic term of 'pulldown' as everything was being slowed down by .1%. We are all right. Adding interlaced 3:2 cadence to 23.98 video is known as adding pulldown. Changing from a whole frame rate to a fractal frame rate by chaining the speed is also pulldown (or pull-up if you are going the other way).

When recording sync sound for 24.0 film, audio was sampled at 48,048k (with 30fps tc) to later get pulled down (speed changed/resampled) to 48k for fractional frame rate offline (or subsequent delivery). Similarly, audio could get recorded at 47,952k and then pulled back up to 48 (sped up) for 24.0 delivery (this is if you are shooting at a fractional frame rate, later to deliver on film).

Since I don't know what has happened to your media, it is my guess that you are trying, somewhere, to go from whole to fractional. This will cause problems in FCPX if you don't do anything about it as I think there's a bug.

Rendering out of RCX at a different frame rate isn't going to fix it. You need to sync your audio and video at the rate it was shot (so that one second of video syncs with one second of audio), and then decide the best method to play back at 23.976. That could mean simply playing ti back .1% slower in FCPX, but you have to make sure to add that .1% in the speed change.

Jeremy


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james Lackleter
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 24, 2014 at 4:41:06 am
Last Edited By james Lackleter on Feb 24, 2014 at 4:42:25 am

Yes the fractional problem is what I was experiencing. I just rerendered 23.98 proxies for all the 24.00 fps footage. When I XML out to Resolve, I simply change frame rate from 24.00 to 23.98 and Tom's your uncle.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 24, 2014 at 5:22:45 am

23.98 to 24 is a very slight difference in speed, so you won't notice much slippage on short clips.

After about 2 mins, the sync is only a frame off.

After 120 mins, it's about a minute off.


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james Lackleter
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 24, 2014 at 6:16:00 am
Last Edited By james Lackleter on Feb 24, 2014 at 6:17:40 am

The scene was a 5 minute long take with no cuts, starts as a cu and pulls back to wide. It's impossible to tell, especially since it moves back to wide. It was just the faulty playback of 24 fps pushing it out of sync.

This also explains why it was playing back fine in MC but not in FCPX.


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james Lackleter
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 25, 2014 at 2:03:29 pm
Last Edited By james Lackleter on Feb 25, 2014 at 2:06:49 pm

Jeremy are you aware of any other bugs. I've cut the whole thing in X and I'm so close to being done, don't want to recut in Avid... I'm just paranoid about finishing in the program. I think it was you who mentioned clicks popping up (pun intended) with faulty faders. Which I've just been fixing with the range tool. Everything is seemingly fine now that I've brought all the 24 clips down to 23.98 by rerendering proxies. Thanks for that by the way.

I've also had issues with certain clips not panning to left and back speakers, it's not phase issue. Otherwise surround has been working out fine, I did most of the work outside of X and imported the clips. Logic filters for channel EQ and Limiter work great.

Anyway any other bugs you know of?

P.S. Oliver I know you use resolve, I'm sure some of you other guys do. A bug in new version which screwed me. If you move the directory of your R3D files, they will not be able to link back. Even if you put the directory back in it's original place. Only happens with R3D files.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: X mismatched Frame Rate projects/ wave bug fix/ Logic Import still broken
on Feb 25, 2014 at 4:28:54 pm

[james Lackleter] "Anyway any other bugs you know of?"

This version (10.1.1 and 10.9.1) seems to have some delays in playback, and assumptions seem to lead to some sort of waveform or thumbnail redraw issue.

If you use the audio EQ from the "audio enhancements" section of audio, you can edit it once, but once you try to edit it again, the effect zeros out and you lose your work.

Oliver has reported that non standard audio sample rates cause problems in exports.

I am sure there are more, but those are the big ones for the moment.

Jeremy


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