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Audio editing in X

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Kannan Raghavan
Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:16:40 am

Hi everyone. I want to know if this can be done.
I edit highlights for sporting events using FCP 7. I hook up my MBP running 7 in OB trucks. My source is usually World Feed with two channels of audio, Ch 1-Full mix with English commentary, Ch 2-International sound. I edit highlights on the fly as the footage comes in. My output has two audio tracks, again full mix and int'l. When I'm making the cuts, wherever I want to cut around the commentary, I cover the full mix track with the int'l sound from trk 2 to remove unwanted commentary around cuts.
Can I do the same in X? I still need both tracks in my output.
Thanks in advance. Hope I've explained myself clearly.

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 10:26:10 am
Last Edited By Trevor Asquerthian on Jan 12, 2014 at 10:28:57 am

[Kannan Raghavan] " My source is ... two channels of audio, Ch 1-Full mix with English commentary, Ch 2-International sound. ... My output has two audio tracks, again full mix and int'l. When I'm making the cuts, wherever I want to cut around the commentary, I cover the full mix track with the int'l sound from trk 2 to remove unwanted commentary around cuts. "

Hi Kannan

Would like to hear others views but the best way I can figure this can be done is as follows:

1. Right click your clip and 'create multi cam clip'

2. Open in Angle editor (double click multi cam clip) and rename angle to 'FULL MIX'

3. Ensure audio is set to 1 stereo pair and at a good level with Mix->Left and Fx->Right

4. Click tiny triangle next to first angles name and 'add angle'

5. Alt drag 1st angle into 2nd angle track.

6. Rename that 2nd Angle 'FX ONLY'

7. Select 2nd angle clip - go to audio inspector - change to 2 Mono tracks and turn off track 1

8. Go to Effects Browser | Audio and add a 'Gain' effect to the 2nd angle - adjust to add +6dB gain (this compensates for the 6dB pan law that FCPx has).

9. Cut this multi cam into your sequence.

10. Where you want to lose commentary, blade 2 points and then select the section. In the audio inspector for that section, deselect 'full mix' and select 'm&e'

Sounds v. complicated, and you can simplify by just doing the blading in the timeline on the master clip, but once you have your multi cam setup it is quicker in the timeline.

You will have to rethink if, as is almost always the case, you need to adjust the level of the M&E to match the Full Mix - as this will cause mismatched edits in your edited M&E.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45875183/2ch%20multicam.mov




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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 12:22:17 pm

OK, easier version - all in the timeline

1. Drag 2 channel clip to sequence

2. Make this timeline clip 2 x mono

3. Disable both audio tracks for this primary timeline clip

4. Duplicate this clip below Primary - enable A1, pan left, +6dB Gain

5. Repeat - enable A2, pan right, +6dB Gain

6. You can now blade the 'A1' connected clip and enable A2 where you want M&E instead of Full Mix - without making edits on the A2 output, thus any level adjustments to match M&E and Full Mix will only affect the A1 output.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45875183/2%20ch%20sequence.mov


Be nice to be able to nest this but BEWARE - compounding this clip will NOT help you (try it and you'll see why as soon as you try to swap audio tracks)



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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 1:25:48 pm

Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply mate. Will try it out and report:)

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 1:57:17 pm

I would do it like Trevor's second version, but instead of duplicating the entire clip I would simply detach the audio, then duplicate the audio. So the you have the image on the primary and two audio clips in the secondary.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 2:16:05 pm

Thanks Nikolas. Am trying it out first thing in the morning:)

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 3:09:05 pm

And before you export you would need to assign new custom roles to the audio clips, you can name them as you like. Then export a Quicktime with separate audio files and choose your custom roles.

And another tip: when cutting the audio its a good idea to turn it into a story line. Then using the Position Tool (p) delete the portions you don't need. Whats left is the filler between the clips, that way you won't move clips by accident and loose sync. Keep in mind that X won't indicate if clips are out of sync.

Another way, instead of cutting, would be to use keyframes. Using the range tool, select the range you want to get rid of and pull the audio level down. then you get 4 keyframes. That way you can blend your audio and don't need to worry about small pieces.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 3:29:58 pm

Sigh:( At least this was much easier in 7.

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 4:37:54 pm

[Kannan Raghavan] "Sigh:( At least this was much easier in 7."

How did you do it in 7? It's possible you can just do the same thing...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 11:48:17 pm

In 7, i just add edit on trk 2 (efx trk), alt+shift drag onto trk 1 wherever i wanted to cover the commentary that didn't make sense due to the video edits. It was really easy.

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 6:25:06 pm

Kannan, you don't have to use a storyline nor Keyframes. These are just tips. In your case you simply cut the clips, they won't move if you blade and delete. When your done you can highlight the clips from one "track" and turn them into a storyline if you like, X will put filler in between.

Assigning roles will take the same amount of time as assigning tracks for export in 7.

This job is an example where X isn't faster than 7, until you export. Unless you don't use any effects and export a reference, then 7 is faster in this case.

The speed of X really becomes evident once you start working with effects. And one thing, which really improved with 10.1 is that you can edit during import, and with 10.1 you can even export during import, even clips that are still converting. At least it worked with DSLR footage the other day.

I still get hired for 7 or Avid most of the time. But after having mastered X, FCP 7 and Avid get on my nerves a lot, and now that I'm close to mastering Premiere CC, 7 is looking even crappier day by day.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Michael Sanders
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 10:13:33 pm

You don't need to bother wilt roles. In the inspector before you bring the clip into the sequence set the clip audio to dual mono and pan ch 1 left and ch 2 right. Then commentary will stay on 1 and intl feed on ch 2.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 3:40:34 pm

If I am understanding this correctly, the output is one channel of English, one channel international.

The international is nearly the same as English, but at certain points, the English commentary is covered with international sound.

I would do it this way.

Add your clips dual mono as mentioned.

Add another instance of audio only English (ch1) underneath as a connected clip.

On ch1 of the original clip, assign a Role of "English". Roles can only be assigned to individual audio components in the timeline.

On ch2 of the original clip assign the Role of "International".

On ch1 of the connected clip assign the Role of "International".

Do your edit and mix. You can mute Roles in the Timeline Index for better mixing.

At the end, do a dual mono export with one channel Role of English, one channel Role of International.

Or perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly?

Jeremy


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 6:25:13 pm
Last Edited By Trevor Asquerthian on Jan 12, 2014 at 6:26:33 pm

I'm assuming he is doing FAST turnaround editing; what you edit is what goes to air.

EITHER a play out or an export to EVS, which is STEREO where LEFT is FULL ENGLISH MIX and RIGHT is INTERNATIONAL (i.e. NO DIALOGUE)

This is how sports turnaround editing has been done since the days of 1" - and shows up the lack of a decent audio mixer / bussing in FCPx quite well.

If the delivery requirement were 2 x STEREO (1&2 = Full Mix, 3&4 = M&E/International/FX Only/Whatever you want to call it) then this is even trickier / impossible in X as it currently stands.

The choices of sequence / timeline / project in X are Stereo or Surround - and I think to do it in a Surround sequence would be too tricky.

Better to stick with FCP7 or move to Avid or PPro.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 6:50:56 pm

Dealing with roles is very easy in X, and exporting all sorts of Track variations is not a problem. its a matter of muscle memory.
I work for DW-TV in Berlin on Avid sound recording and editing for the hourly news, and I just don't see why X couldn't do the job just as well or even better, especially while I was working for Promiflash on X pumping out jobs like a madman last year, and having more time per hour to really work on the sound and fiddle with fx and cc.

Rendering and exporting in 7 just takes too long.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Andy Neil
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 6:58:22 pm

[Trevor Asquerthian] "If the delivery requirement were 2 x STEREO (1&2 = Full Mix, 3&4 = M&E/International/FX Only/Whatever you want to call it) then this is even trickier / impossible in X as it currently stands. "

Trevor, I'm sorry but this is completely wrong. It's quite easy to do this kind of output using Roles. That's what Roles were designed for.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 7:00:29 pm

Trevor, I have delivered files with stereo tracks as you describe to DW-TV exported from X. I don't see why it should be impossible, actually was faster than the FCP 7 projects I export when dealing with Pro7 or RTL. It really is a matter of getting used to working with roles in my opinion.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:08:35 pm

You can export multichannel QTs in fcpx with ease.

You are not limited to stereo or surround.

It is much easier to do than in Pr.


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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 11:51:53 pm

Yes Trevor, you're right. After we go off air, I have 5 min to start putting the 52 min highlight program on tape or playout to the EVS (sometimes). So speed is of utmost importance. My output is always CH 1 full mix, Ch 2 int'l sound ( M & E). Will try the methods suggested here and see how it goes.

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Andy Neil
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 6:55:44 pm

I would approach it similar to you Jeremy. Since Roles can determine the channel in the export, you can make these kinds of edits fairly easily.

Don't bother disconnecting the audio from the video. Just leave it and assign the Role English to the english full mix channel and INTL for the international channel.

Then when you reach a part with english commentary that you want to lose, use the range tool to select the section in the english channel and hit V to disable it.

Select the same area on the INTL channel (it's easy if you have snapping on. Hit CMD+C to copy it, and with the playhead at the start range, hit OPT+V to paste the INTL copied sound as a connected clip.

Go through your entire sequence and when you're done, lasso select all the connected audio and change their Role to English so that when you export, it's mixed into that channel.

Done.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 7:14:15 pm

(I'm on my ipad, quoting cow style doesn't work)

Andy wrote: "Don't bother disconnecting the audio from the video. Just leave it and assign the Role English to the english full mix channel and INTL for the international channel."

You can assign roles to individual channels without disconnecting? Looks like i got some workflow adjustments to do tonight. Thanks, Andy.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Charlie Austin
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:07:10 pm

[Nikolas Bäurle] "You can assign roles to individual channels without disconnecting? Looks like i got some workflow adjustments to do tonight. Thanks, Andy."

Absolutely, I do it all the time with 6-8 channel masters we get. open in timeline, assign roles, edit away. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 9:35:29 pm

Audiocomponents rock more than I thought! You learn something every day.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:07:16 pm

[Nikolas Bäurle] "You can assign roles to individual channels without disconnecting? Looks like i got some workflow adjustments to do tonight. Thanks, Andy."

It has to be done in the timeline and can't be done from the inspector on the original clip.

You can assign individual roles to each audio component, but you have to expand the audio components first.

Jeremy


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Charlie Austin
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:11:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "t has to be done in the timeline and can't be done from the inspector on the original clip. "

Correct, but opening the master in a timeline and assigning roles to components(channels) before editing is a great timesaver... Way faster than any track-patching... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:18:10 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Correct, but opening the master in a timeline and assigning roles to components(channels) before editing is a great timesaver... Way faster than any track-patching... ;-)"

Yes.

The problem is that if you have a ton of clips, opening each one in timeline takes a while.

I can tag multiple components in a Project.

But I agree with you, especially for the original poster who sounds like they are working from a master program. Setting up Role information as early as possible allows you to save much more time in the end, and in most cases, you won't have to think about it again.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:21:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The problem is that if you have a ton of clips, opening each one in timeline takes a while. "

Agreed. It'd be nice to be able to paste Role info, (or assign on import) to clips with the same component layout. Probably do-able but maybe not at the top of the list of Role enhancements. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:12:26 pm

Nice one, Andy. Even easier.


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 8:39:21 pm

Jeremy, Andy, Nikolas, Thanks for the Roles info - I agree it does work as described.

I still think I'd probably go the multi cam route as it is easier to add transitions and adjust edits. (It also gives me the chance to nest a score bug and be editing with a composited clip. )

The roles workflow also means it's tricky to monitor both audio tracks for level, while only listening to the the 'full mix' output. Typically I'm editing 2 x stereo pairs, and only listening to the full mix, but I want to see that tracks 3&4 look right on the PPMs. Not easy with only a 2 track output, however easy it may be to make a multichannel QT at the end.

Also often the delivery is baseband video - i.e. play out straight from the NLE, rather than making a file. Again FCPx lack of audio mixer precludes this as far as I can see.

But i'm only trying X out, not editing on it for real, so there may well be better / easier workflows when doing it for real. Interested to hear them / see examples. Thanks again for the feedback.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 10:01:04 pm

You're right Trevor in that there is no multichannel audio monitoring. You can only see the summed output unless you solo Roles.


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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 11:46:22 pm

Wow! Thanks for all the responses guys. Soryy, I couldn't reply earlier due to the 13/14 hrs time difference. It's 7.45 am here, am about to switch on the AMc. Will try the different methods outlined and report back.
A big Happy New Year to all:)

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 13, 2014 at 9:56:29 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "You're right Trevor in that there is no multichannel audio monitoring. You can only see the summed output unless you solo Roles."

So it seems to me that there's 2 feature requests arising here:

1. Ability to assign roles to individual tracks on import / in media browser

2. Output bussing for Roles (e.g. in this case FULL MIX role -> A1 output, INTERNATIONAL role -> A2 output) with consideration for Mono vs Stereo vs Surround

I realise that for many audio is less important but in the niche OB/EVS market that FCP7 had cornered (and where OB companies are looking at Adobe



as a replacement).



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 13, 2014 at 3:18:12 pm

[Trevor Asquerthian] "So it seems to me that there's 2 feature requests arising here:"

And many more.

As powerful as Pr's audio tools can be, I think that multichannel output in Pr is a lot more convoluted than it needs to be.

Jeremy


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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 12, 2014 at 11:55:04 pm

Hi Andy. Thanks for this tip. This would be very similar to how I did it in 7. In 7, I add edit on the int'l trk wherever I wanted to lose commentary, alt drag (copy) the int'l sound straight up onto the full mix trk. It was very easy, fast. Will try your method in X and report back.

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio editing in X
on Jan 13, 2014 at 4:01:00 am

Thanks a lot Andy. It worked. While not as straightforward as 7, it can be done and this is the only I was waiting for before going with X full on. The decision is made.
Thanks a lot to Trevor, Nikolas, Jeremy and everyone else who took the time to help me out. Really appreciate it:)

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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