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Marker thoughts - bugs?

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Trevor Asquerthian
Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 5, 2014 at 11:00:48 pm

There are 4 kinds of markers in FCPx.1
Blue - Standard
Red - 'To Do'
Green - 'Completed'
Orange - 'Chapter'

I cannot directly add a 'completed' marker, it has to be a 'todo' first. (makes sense, but I'd rather have more coloured markers).

The 2 other non-standard markers are not assigned to a keystroke by default.

If they are added to a keystroke then the first press of the non-standard marker (Todo or chapter) incorrectly adds a Blue/'standard' marker. Marking a second marker then changes the colour of the first marker to be correct. Seems like a bug to me.

Also selecting a clip nested in a secondary storyline and adding markers with keystrokes actually adds markers to the topmost clip / gap in primary UNLESS there are no more clips in the primary OR the secondary storyline is positioned ABOVE the primary. Also seems like a bug.

In the attached screen recording the nested secondary clip was always selected and 'todo' marker added as the sequence was played.

http://reels.creativecow.net/film/fcpx-101-marker-behaviour



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Bill Davis
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 6, 2014 at 5:54:23 am

Or, looked at another way...,

There's a single general purpose marker you can use to ... mark stuff.

Then there's a specific pair of "task" markers to use when you want to create "to do" items and make sure that they get accomplished. This is extra convenient in situations where one team member is assigned to create tasks - and there's a possibility that either another person completes them - or needs to check to insure that those items do, in fact, get attended to - but want to leave a semi-permenant trail of what's been done - and feels that placing and removing a normal marker it too - well - ephemeral, I guess.

And then there's the "chapter" markers for the small fraction of people who still need to burn their content to old style spinning plastic discs or who work with content systems that are chapter enabled.

The first one will be used by maybe 80-90% of those use X who need to place a fixed in time reference on their storylines in a fashion that isn't better solved by using the timeline index and it's search capabilities.

The second group will enable X to be used in supervisory situations or for those who are comforted by having a checklist system in play. (I'm actually one of those, myself)

The last group are dead to me because if I NEVER have to waste another of my life's hours creating another stupid plastic disk for content it's faster and easier to just deliver electronically - I'll die happier.

The whole thing is all about your perceptions.

You would perhaps like the X authors to create a dozen extra classes of markers.

I aspire to fewer.

YMMV.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Mark Morache
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 6, 2014 at 8:12:18 am

For what it's worth, you can label your standard markers with any text you wish, and they show up in the timeline index. You can filter them to reveal any marker names you want.

Seems pretty powerful.

However, if anyone asked me, I'd love to be able to assign clip colors on the timeline, based on roles, or some other criteria.

---------
Don't live your life in a secondary storyline.

Mark Morache
FCPX/FCP7/Xpri/Avid
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Don Smith
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 6, 2014 at 11:03:18 am

While confusing to look at your video at first, I got the idea as it played that it is not a bug.

It appears to me that the intent is to make a marker on the timeline and not on the clip but the designers have chosen to make timeline markers appear on the topmost clip instead of what we used to call the scrubber bar in FCP7. It makes sense since a marker at a certain point is, well, a marker at a certain point and is at the same point for any clips below it.

I don't have Final Cut open but one experiment I would like to try is the new feature where you set markers and then, on the Retiming drop-down, choose the command where you set jumps at each marker. Can't say the precise name right now (OK, full disclosure; I can't open the new Final Cut because my home computer is too old to load it. I'm waiting for delivery of my new Mac Pro. But, I do use the new Final Cut 10.1 at work). I would be interested if the markers appear on the topmost clip but will put the jumps on a selected clip below. If it doesn't then I'm leaning toward calling the markers buggy. If the selected clip below inherits the jump at markers command, then I lean toward calling it design.

NewsVideo.com


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 6, 2014 at 11:33:04 am

[Don Smith] "the designers have chosen to make timeline markers appear on the topmost clip"

Not true.

If I repeated the video, with the selected clip NOT in a secondary group, then the markers always mark on the selected clip.

The bug is that IF the selected clip is within a secondary group, THEN the marker is on the topmost clip

If I were to move any of the marked clips then the markers move with the clips (rather than being 'timeline' markers) - which is a GOOD thing.

You can see from the video that the markers CHANGE colour when a subsequent marker is added. Surely you'll accept this is a bug?

I put this in the 'techniques' forum because I do not wish to bash FCPx but see it grow into a professional application. By all means promote the elements of the application that are well designed (magnetic timeline, audio associated by default etc) but you do it no favours by blindly accepting the parts that need improvement.



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Don Smith
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 6, 2014 at 11:58:31 am
Last Edited By Don Smith on Jan 6, 2014 at 11:59:29 am

I now see your point Trevor and I agree with your assessment.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 6, 2014 at 12:05:01 pm

I have to agree with Trevor on this one. I do like the fact that in 7 the marker are independent from the clips in the timeline, this is one of the few features I think needs change, even though it doesn't bug me too much. I mean, it really is there to mark a point in time, if I have it on a clip and even on the primary and delete something the marker is gone. In 7 the marker stays put. At least if the marker in X jumped down to the next clip when deleting something, that could help.

For the magazine stuff (4min) I was editing in X this year I always put my markers in the primary. I would place the interviews first, with black filler in between, then have the producer read the text and mark on the filler in the primary.

I wouldn't call it a bug, since a bug is when something happens that's not supposed to. Its very likely that they planned to have it that way, personally I haven't found the benefit to that.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Bill Davis
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 6, 2014 at 7:44:34 pm

[Nikolas Bäurle] "I have to agree with Trevor on this one. I do like the fact that in 7 the marker are independent from the clips in the timeline, this is one of the few features I think needs change, even though it doesn't bug me too much."

Isn't this a function of the fact that in Legacy - the time base is always FIXED in the timeline - where in X, the time base floats?

In Legacy, the timeline progression is a fixed "thing" - in X it is not - in exactly the same way that in X there's literally NOTHING underneath a gap clip - where in Legacy there's a fixed black timed space.

Placing a marker in one is not the same as placing a marker in the other.

At all.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 7, 2014 at 4:01:05 am

[Bill Davis] "Placing a marker in one is not the same as placing a marker in the other.

At all."


That's really what it boils down to. It's one of those features that just needs getting used to. And then its not a bug anymore:-)

In 7 you can either set the marker at the top of the timeline, or mark a clip and then the marker gets set on the clip. So the only thing we loose in X is fixed time markers... The problem with the fixed markers at the top are that once the time of your edit changes they kind of become useless. If you need to cut something to a specific time then they really help, but if you don't have exact time constraints it does become irritating when you have to keep deleting unused markers.

In X the primary storyline is the backbone of the edit, and can be used as a fixed time indicator so its simply a matter of highlighting the primary (if there are clips above it) and marking it.

Its just one of those things we learn to accept as editors when working with different software. X just isn't 7, but since its from Apple and has the same name we still associate the one with the other. Many if not most issues with X come from people forcing it to work like 7. If we use Avid or Premiere we also have to accept that each has its way of working. And then its just a matter of personal preference.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 7, 2014 at 4:40:28 pm

Here's my 'markers have idiosyncrasies' video - with annotations & extras ;-)

http://reels.creativecow.net/film/fcpx-markers-have-bugs-with-annotations



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Bret Williams
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 7, 2014 at 5:35:51 pm

[Nikolas Bäurle] "The problem with the fixed markers at the top are that once the time of your edit changes they kind of become useless. If you need to cut something to a specific time then they really help, but if you don't have exact time constraints it does become irritating when you have to keep deleting unused markers.

In X the primary storyline is the backbone of the edit, and can be used as a fixed time indicator so its simply a matter of highlighting the primary (if there are clips above it) and marking it."


This would be a good solution. However, the markers need to stay put no matter what clips are added or deleted or overwritten. IOW, the markers need to be primary based, not clip based. Markers can serve so many purposes. They can simply mark off 10 frame intervals. They can mark beats of music. They can mark a particular point in time where a commercial or break is inserted. All of which should be treated differently. Even legacy acknowledged this in it's last update, and make time based markers ripple as an option. Which was a welcome addition because clip markers for me, were used sparingly because they deleted when a clip was deleted or they didn't export to DVDs as chapters. Plus, clip markers are just all over the place. Once timeline markers rippled it was an obvious answer to use them almost exclusively. No reason timeline markers couldn't do the same in X. Nice and clean. You ripple the Primary and the markers ripple with it just as if they were a connected clip. Simple. Hell, they could even have connection lines down to points in the primary so you could see what would ripple and what wouldn't.

But I think having "primary markers" (markers made with no selection in the timeline) would be a good option. They might sit on the baseline of the primary instead of on the actual clips. As long as they functioned just like legacy timeline markers with the option to ripple or not. I would assume they ripple, unless you hold down the ~ key. The markers would function like connected clips. Connected markers if you will. But then, they might just make more sense to be in the scrub bar with connection lines just like clips and titles. Less confusion.


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Bret Williams
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 7, 2014 at 5:15:53 pm

The timeline doesn't float in X anymore than it does in legacy. The fact that X functions more often than not in ripple mode doesn't make any difference. And in legacy you had clip markers and timeline markers. Clip markers functioned just like clip markers in X. X simply doesn't have timeline markers yet. But there is no reason not to. If you need a marker at 5min30seconds then that's where you need a marker. Not on a clip at the 5min 30sec point. That concept doesn't change just because an application adopted rippling with sync locks on as it's main method of editing.


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Bill Davis
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 8, 2014 at 12:00:20 am

[Bret Williams] "The timeline doesn't float in X anymore than it does in legacy."

I'm going to disagree with this.

Let's imagine an infant on the floor playing with classic ABC blocks.

In the Legacy timeline - there is a persistent and immovable left side wall to your block building space, the boundary of which you cannot surmount. Period, end of discussion.

Should you choose to put your first clip against that wall (as nearly everyone working in Legacy does almost universally) you're stuck with that wall unless you do a complex work-around of shifting EVERYTHING downstream and correctly estimating the "space" you need to leave - fearing that if you make a mistake, you can destructively overwrite content. Yikes.

In X, the blocks are functionally surrounded by free space. You can build right, left, up and down.

In Legacy, the ZERO time WALL is immovable and insurmountable.

In order to change your ZERO you have to manually shift EVERYTHING else away from zero.

In X that's totally not true. You can put anything you like in front of Zero and the program just resets the time ticks to the new zero, dynamically.

These are NOT the same thing at all.

It's a central fact of the program's approach.

My 2 cents.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bret Williams
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 8, 2014 at 1:39:11 am

Seems completely opposite to me. In 7 I could arbitrarily place my first clip at any point in time. In X you must place it at zero unless you insert gap. In either app, you can insert clips before the first clip and the whole timeline reconfigures itself. Except it's not renumbeting the timeline. It's simply rippling the clips downstream of the insert point. In legacy, if you want to rearrange chunks in the same way, simply hold down cmd+ option, and drag them around. The timeline will shift for you. Similar to X. Quite a standard function in NLEs. And if you operate with all the locks off in legacy, you can ripple extend a clip in a track and all the other tracks will slide and shrink accordingly.

I'm not arguing that legacy is better by any means. But it just seems that after using it since 2000, that people are wowedby some of the basic functions that X supports by default that you had to invoke in legacy. The main reason legacy and other NLES didn't ripple by default is because it's destructive. It's going to make you work on a more linear fashion instead of non-linear. To be able to put something at 6:05 and know it would stick at 6:05 unless you did something like an insert or ripple delete was very comforting.

I think the speed of X comes more from the tracklessness. The vertical magnetism. And clip connections. Which have to exist to make ripple work without tracks. Being able to drag something into the timeline roughly without worrying about the precise ins and outs, or if it's going to overwrite something, allows more work to be done in the sequence without all the 3 point edit fuss. You can argue that always working in ripple mode is faster for rough cutting too, but whether the advantages Are worth it is debateable. I'd like it to function without gaps. But they are necessary because there are no tracks. There has to be something to connect to in the primary. It's all pretty interwoven.


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 8, 2014 at 3:55:35 pm

[Bill Davis] "Let's imagine an infant on the floor playing with classic ABC blocks.
"


Bill I never understood why folks got so riled by you...

FCPx is not so different from other editors. We still mark in, mark out, insert, overwrite, ripple, lift, extract, trim, slip, slide, composite, reframe, title, dissolve, wipe, mask etc etc.

FCPx is built on the shoulders of the giants of the past, including FCP7, Avid, Softimage, Autoscreet, Quantel, Media100, Lightworks, Sony, Editware, GVG, Paltex, CMX and Datatron's Tempo76 to name but a few I've been paid to edit on.

And in all those editors you can insert material at 'zero'. (Even on a Sony MKS-8050 'linear' editor we can make insert edits at the top of the EDL now.)

For me FCPx has some interesting features, which is why I keep looking at it. But I think it is fundamentally flawed in the lack of real world usage by professionals feeding back sane pros and cons. Instead there is a lot of noise about how 'no-one understands it' or 'X Rocks'. I understand why that might occur in the FCPx or Not forum - but here I thought there would be more considered and informed responses.

That is how those other editors improved over time.



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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: Marker thoughts - bugs?
on Jan 8, 2014 at 8:04:46 pm

[Trevor Asquerthian] "For me FCPx has some interesting features, which is why I keep looking at it. But I think it is fundamentally flawed in the lack of real world usage by professionals feeding back sane pros and cons."

I do agree with you that there are bugs Apple needs to address. But that FCPX is fundamentally flawed in the lack of real world usage is simply not true. There are too many professionals already using it successfully for that to be the case. Its really just a matter of what people and companies like to use and wether or not they are willing to master X. Workflows can change anytime. FCPX might not do older or certain current workflows better, but for tapeless workflows it really does ROCK!:-)

I work with FCP7 and Avid almost on a daily basis and they also have flaws and features that work better in other NLEs. And Premiere has its problems as well... The fact that FCP7 is still strong has nothing to do with its quality but the PR disaster Apple created when it released X. And I'm sorry to say that many are just misinformed. I experience it every now and again on interviews. When producers or top notch editors tell me that Apple decided to get out of the professional market, and I've heard this more than once, then they are wrong, and haven't done their research.

Apple left out certain features at first, brought some back that really will be used in the future. Its simply a new piece of software evolving. Everything I do for my broadcasters and postproducers I can and have done
in X faster and sometimes better since you have more time to pimp out fx and cc. Certain bugs and features anybody can live with, X will keep on getting better.

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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